Pathfinder Beguiler

[TheOOB]

I'm playing in a Pathfinder game soon, and I kind of wanted to play a Beguiler, and I was looking into what would need to change to make the class work, and it doesn't look like much. Below are the changes I was thinking(and why I think so)

* Change 3.5 skills to Pathfinder equivalent(obvious)
* Change d6 Hit Die to d8(most low HD classes get a one die boost in PF)
* Use cantrips ability instead of 0 level spell slots(obvious)
(Optional)* Add Eclectic Learning varient class feature
*Increase BAB and Reflex Save bonus(All core classes in PF get some boost, and spellcasters in particular get some kind regular or at will ability to make them not useless when their spells run out, but since the Beguiler is more rogue-like I think making it so their attacks are worth using makes sense instead of giving them like blinding ray or something).

Does this look good/balanced to everyone?

[StreamOfTheSky]

All of it looks fine except the BAB increase.

I'd just give them something along the lines of the enchanter school's powers of wizard.

Biggest amount of work would be re-configuring the spell list, since Beguilers in 3E didn't have every illusion and enchantment spell, not even all the core ones, so any sort of PF list you made would be full of judgment calls.
By far the biggest amount of work is there.

[Analytica]

I would keep BAB low but give them maybe rogue tricks at half rate, really.

[jmelesky]

* Change d6 Hit Die to d8(most low HD classes get a one die boost in PF)
....
* Increase BAB and Reflex Save bonus

BAB and HD are linked in PF. Not sure what the BAB was for the 3.5 Beguiler, but d8 is linked to 3/4 BAB (d10 and d12 are full BAB, d6 is half).

So be careful tinkering there.

[Eldonauran]

Beguiler would not be unlike the Magus or the Bard. But since they get 9th level spells, 1/2 BAB and d6 HP would be the best thing to go with.

I would suggest fitting in rogue tricks and/or something similiar to eclectic learning to fill in the dead levels. Maybe give them an extra bonus to hit when flanking to make up for low BAB.

[grarrrg]

All of it looks fine except the BAB increase.


I would keep BAB low but give them maybe rogue tricks at half rate, really.


Beguiler would not be unlike the Magus or the Bard. But since they get 9th level spells, 1/2 BAB and d6 HP would be the best thing to go with.

I would suggest fitting in rogue tricks and/or something similiar to eclectic learning to fill in the dead levels. Maybe give them an extra bonus to hit when flanking to make up for low BAB.

Mostly what they said.
Rogue tricks every 4 levels would fill in about half of the 'dead' levels. And since it has access to 9th level spells it is fully acceptable for it to still have some dead levels.

As far as Bab/HD go, 3.5 it had d6 and 3/4, same as Rogue. So just bump the HD to d8 and call it good.


BAB and HD are linked in PF. Not sure what the BAB was for the 3.5 Beguiler, but d8 is linked to 3/4 BAB (d10 and d12 are full BAB, d6 is half).

Yes and no.
Base classes follow this (so far).
But there are a fair number of Prestige options that do not.

[jmelesky]

Yes and no.
Base classes follow this (so far).
But there are a fair number of Prestige options that do not.

True, but Beguiler was a base class, right?

There are also a couple monster types where it doesn't apply, IIRC.

[StreamOfTheSky]

All of the classes w/ a d6 or d4 HD in 3E had it kicked up by one size in PF.

That seemed to be the trend.

If it were up to me: rogue and bard would be d8, cleric and druid d6, sorc and wiz still d4, and beguiler would come in at d6.

But, PF loves casters, so based on the HD changes from 3E, beguiler would probably become d8 and poor BAB in PF.

[TheOOB]

I really don't want to give rogue tricks to the beguiler, that would remove what makes the rogue unique(and many of them are based on sneak attacks, which a beguiler does not have).

The reason I choose to increase BAB to 3/4 rather than 1/2 is because I specifically didn't want to give the Beguiler something like the illusion or enchantment special abilities from the wizard. The Beguiler needs something extra aside from there spells in PF to both be competitive and to follow the general trend in PF that spellcasters have something to do once their spells are gone in combat. While the Beguiler is a full caster, they fill a rogues roll in the party, so I figured making them able to fight decent would fulfill that roll, while making them more roguelike. I also think it's a lower power boost than a special ability, because the Beguiler is pretty close to perfectly balanced as-is, and without any special ablities(aside from what amounts to free improved feint) boosting attacks(or even a meaningful amount of touch and ray spells), it'll mostly be used to make the class a decent backup archer.

[grarrrg]

I really don't want to give rogue tricks to the beguiler, that would remove what makes the rogue unique(and many of them are based on sneak attacks, which a beguiler does not have).

There are plenty of other Base Class archetypes, and PrC's that have access to Rogue Talents.

Various Alchemist archetypes
Various Bard archetypes
White-Haired Witch

Shadowdancer
Aspis Agent
Sleepless Detective gets a few assigned
Halfling Opportunist gets one assigned


I'd say giving the Beguiler access to the Non-Sneak ones should not be an issue.

[Wise Green Bean]

If you want to give a perk to beguilers, I'd suggest an ability to pierce mind blank or mind effecting ability immunity a few times per day. Cuz that's a big problem in regular DnD, and I imagine pathfinder being worse.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Actually, PF nerfed Mind Blank into near uselessness (just gives a save bonus, and it's a RESISTANCE bonus!). Mind-affecting immune enemies are still as cheesily absolute as before, though.

Dirge Bard can use mind-affecting on undead. Letting Beguiler have a similar ability might be a good idea.

[TheOOB]

If you want to give a perk to beguilers, I'd suggest an ability to pierce mind blank or mind effecting ability immunity a few times per day. Cuz that's a big problem in regular DnD, and I imagine pathfinder being worse.

That seems really powerful though, the fact that enchantments and illusions can be beat is what makes the Beguiler balanced. The point in boosting the power wasn't to make their magic or rogueish ness better, but to give them an option in combat when they are out of spells/their spells are irrelevant, and I thought a decent attack bonus makes more sense than a spell-like ability. Spellcasters in PF all seem to have some extra combat utility beyond just spells(sorc get their bloodline, wizards get their school, clerics can fight and channel divinity, druids can shapeshift, bards can sing and fight, ect).

[Analytica]

Have a look at the wizard illusionist and enchanter school abilities, as well as the Veiled Illusionist PRC. Maybe give them some or all of those, as well as eventually auto-still and -silent metamagic for their spells? The beguiler shtick is being the best at illusion and mind control without being noticed, so it should be at least as good as a wizard at those things specifically.

[TheOOB]

Have a look at the wizard illusionist and enchanter school abilities, as well as the Veiled Illusionist PRC. Maybe give them some or all of those, as well as eventually auto-still and -silent metamagic for their spells? The beguiler shtick is being the best at illusion and mind control without being noticed, so it should be at least as good as a wizard at those things specifically.

Now that's where we disagree. I believe the Beguiler's shtick is being a rogue who operates primarly via spells rather than sneak attacks and special abilities.

[grarrrg]

Now that's where we disagree. I believe the Beguiler's shtick is being a rogue who operates primarly via spells rather than sneak attacks and special abilities.

:smallsigh:
If it's a "rogue with casting" then give it the dang Rogue Talents every 4 levels.
If it's a "caster with some rogue" then give it the dang Illusion/Enchant powers.

Or, and this may come as a shock, DON'T GIVE IT ANYTHING EXTRA.
Seriously. While it has a fairly small list, it still gets 9th level spells from decent schools, and can more than fill the Skill Monkey role. It doesn't "need" anything.