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View Full Version : Brainstorming: Talented classes (3.5)



The-Mage-King
2012-10-12, 03:36 PM
The idea is actually simple- take a page from d20 Modern and Star Wars SAGA, revising 3.5 to remove most of the class bloat and rebalance it..

So far, I've gotten a small framework set up for it- Six classes, named the Warrior, the Mage, the Expert, the Spellsword, the Trickster, and the Rogue.


The first three will be "pure" classes, having full access to the basics of the three subsystems used to differentiate them. The other three....


Well, Spellsword is Gish, Trickster is SkillGish, and Rogue is Skill/Combat.



I'm still trying to think up the subsystems. Considering ToB/Psionics/Something.


Needs more thought, though.

Blueiji
2012-10-12, 05:04 PM
What would be the general aim, tier-wise, for these new classes. Tier three?

If tier three was indeed the target then the choice of the spellcasting and martial subsystems become pretty clear (unless we wanted to make something new).

For martial endeavours, the ToB as you mentioned, seems like the way to go.

As for spellcasting, you mentioned a psionics based system, which seems like the right choice for this 6-class concept. We could go the same route as the Beguiler or Dread Necromancer, but then you have a host of specialized mage classes rather than one, all-encompassing class (which seems to be the suggested idea for the non-hybrid mag class).

Off the top of my head I can't think of anything particularly suited to the skill-oriented classes, but there is this nice piece of tier three homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92221) that gives the rogue class a list of abilities functioning under a system similar to a warlock or sorcerer. For the skill oriented character we could also employ the Factotums' inspiration point system. Or even just use the Factotum class.

What about a seventh, generalist class that mixed all three archetypes? It could even function on a fourth, entirely different subsystem, to set it apart. Perhaps it could resemble a bard or marshal (flavour-wise, that is, not necessarily in the mechanics).

The originally suggested triad of skill sets also leaves out any sort of religion or nature oriented character (such as the cleric or druid). Although those roles aren't entirely necessary, it might be something worth adding after the initial classes are down.

The-Mage-King
2012-10-12, 05:25 PM
Because it's been more than an hour, and this is actual content for the idea...

________


So, having thought about it some, talents would need to be simple, basic, and somewhat flavorful.

I can see Warrior class talents being split into trees based on fighting style.

Power Attack (perhaps merged with using two hands to attack)/Weapon Finesse (maybe merged with einhander)/Archery/TWF/Tank would all need to be assigned as basic ones, with maybe a few others if needed.


Example Talent from Power Attack tree:


Mighty Warrior: Whenever you use the Power Attack feat, you gain a +1 bonus on damage. When you take a penalty on attack rolls that is divisible by 5, you increase this bonus by 1. This bonus is treated as though it were granted by the power attack feat for the purposes of multipliers.
Prerequisite: Power Attack feat


________________


For caster-types, I was considering making a set of basic talents that decide what they have access to, and maybe grant access if taken again. Additional talents would expand on these. Note that each school -will- be based on Psionic rules, and adjusted to fit, along with compressed. Conjuration will be strictly summoning and teleporting, for example, and enchantment will have illusion effects folded in.

Example casting talents

Magician of Power: You gain full access to the [Evocation] school. Whenever casting a damage dealing spell from this school, you may add your key ability to the damage roll.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 4 ranks.


Magician of Subtlety: You gain full access to the [Enchantment] schools. Whenever you cast a spell with a duration measured in rounds from this school, you may add your key ability to the duration.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 4 ranks.


Magician of Life and Death: You gain full access to the [Necromancy] school. Whenever you cast a spell that heals a creature of damage, you may add your key ability to the damage healed.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 4 ranks.

_____________


Now, for the most annoying to figure out of the classes...

The Expert.

Their main gimmick will be skills, and interesting ways of using skills. But they also get to be the most equipment reliant of the classes, since they aren't combatants, and they can't cast.


Example talents


Intuitive Aptitude: You may use your key ability modifier in place of that of the normal modifier for up to five skills. This talent may be taken multiple times. Each time, it affects a different five skills.


Alchemical Mastery: You may create any alchemical item with the appropriate check, instead of needing to be a spellcaster. Whenever you create an alchemical item, you may choose to add your key ability either its base damage, its duration, or its saving throw DC.
Prerequisites: Craft (Alchemy) 4 ranks.




The other three... Will mostly draw from the base three, though unique talents may be added. Paladin-like stuff for Spellsword, as an example.




EDIT:
What would be the general aim, tier-wise, for these new classes. Tier three?

Therabouts.


If tier three was indeed the target then the choice of the spellcasting and martial subsystems become pretty clear (unless we wanted to make something new).

For martial endeavours, the ToB as you mentioned, seems like the way to go.

As for spellcasting, you mentioned a psionics based system, which seems like the right choice for this 6-class concept. We could go the same route as the Beguiler or Dread Necromancer, but then you have a host of specialized mage classes rather than one, all-encompassing class (which seems to be the suggested idea for the non-hybrid mag class).

Martial will DEFINITELY be ToB based, but skip the magical/semi-magical disciplines, aside from the Spellsword, which will be the Paladin/Gish/Mystical monk flavored class.

Yeah, I was thinking Psionics, with most stuff being available to all, but some from each school (post revisions to flavor/function) being set aside for... Well, above access talents. That way characters can be fairly general at the base, but somewhat specialize.



Off the top of my head I can't think of anything particularly suited to the skill-oriented classes, but there is this nice piece of tier three homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92221) that gives the rogue class a list of abilities functioning under a system similar to a warlock or sorcerer. For the skill oriented character we could also employ the Factotums' inspiration point system. Or even just use the Factotum class.

At the moment, I was considering Inspiration, to be honest. Prowess looks interesting, though, so I might consider it.



What about a seventh, generalist class that mixed all three archetypes? It could even function on a fourth, entirely different subsystem, to set it apart. Perhaps it could resemble a bard or marshal (flavour-wise, that is, not necessarily in the mechanics).

Now that might be an idea for later- I'd want to hammer out the basic three subsytems first. The Bard flavor is probably going to be grafted onto the Trickster, along with Ranger/Divine sneak.


The originally suggested triad of skill sets also leaves out any sort of religion or nature oriented character (such as the cleric or druid). Although those roles aren't entirely necessary, it might be something worth adding after the initial classes are down.

Actually, those names are placeholders. You should (quite easily) be able to play a Cleric with the Mage class. Druid would definitely need to be a unique tree, though, since it covers... Well, a lot. Maybe a PrC...


As mentioned, Paladin and Ranger archetypes would be in the Spellsword/Trickster flavor, each as a talent tree. Probably "Holy Champion" and "Nature's Defender" would be the names.

EdroGrimshell
2012-10-12, 07:08 PM
Actually, those names are placeholders. You should (quite easily) be able to play a Cleric with the Mage class. Druid would definitely need to be a unique tree, though, since it covers... Well, a lot. Maybe a PrC...


As mentioned, Paladin and Ranger archetypes would be in the Spellsword/Trickster flavor, each as a talent tree. Probably "Holy Champion" and "Nature's Defender" would be the names.

I imagine that you'd have the Advanced Class concept as well in addition to PrCs?

The-Mage-King
2012-10-12, 07:46 PM
I imagine that you'd have the Advanced Class concept as well in addition to PrCs?

Maybe.


...

Actually, Advanced being 10-level ones with their own talent trees, while PrCs are 3-10 levels with set abilities would work...




At any rate, how do the sample talents look? Reasonable and fair?

EdroGrimshell
2012-10-12, 07:53 PM
At any rate, how do the sample talents look? Reasonable and fair?

From what I see they look pretty good. But I'd need to see ALL of them in order to actually comment on them for balance.

The-Mage-King
2012-10-12, 08:04 PM
From what I see they look pretty good. But I'd need to see ALL of them in order to actually comment on them for balance.

<_<

>_>

That is all of the sample ones. This is a thread to try and get the ideas flowing.


I'll get to work on some more in a bit.


For melee, I think Einhander/Finesse will give stuff like minimal precision damage, TWF will greatly reduce the penalties, and Tank will provide better provoking.

Magic, probably stuff to enhance the types. Healing spells heal more-er over areas or grant temp HP if exceeding regular, blasting overrides resistances, and so on.


Skillmonkies... No clue.

I was considering one like Wealth,entitled Golden Rule, but that might need to be a higher level one...

The-Mage-King
2012-10-14, 10:23 PM
So, since I have been bored for a day, have a sample of talents. All of these will be mainly available for the Warrior- Power, definitely is exclusive, but Einhander might go to Rogue or Spellsword, too. I mean, it fits.


Power TreeFocused on dishing out damage and knocking the target for a loop, the Power tree appeals most to those who just want to get in there and beat their opponents into the ground. You can only deliver one condition from the Two-Handed tree per attack- you could use Impressive Strike on one creature, and Punishing Blow on another, but not both on the same creature.


Impressive Strike: The first time you successfully attack a given creature in a round while using power attack, it must make a Fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 BAB+ Strength modifier). If it fails this save, it is dazed until the beginning of your next turn.
Prerequisites: Mighty Warrior, +3 BAB


Knockback: Whenever you successfully attack a creature while using the power attack feat, you may make a single Bull-Rush attempt as a free action. This check may not move the targeted creature by more than 5 feet. This
Prerequisites: Impressive Strike, Improved Bullrush


Mighty Warrior: Whenever you use the Power Attack feat, you gain a +1 bonus on damage. When you take a penalty on attack rolls that is divisible by 5, you increase this bonus by 1. This bonus is treated as though it were granted by the power attack feat for the purposes of multipliers.
Prerequisite: Power Attack feat


Punishing Blow: The first time you successfully attack a given creature in a round while using power attack, it must make a Fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 BAB+ Strength modifier). If it fails this save, it is staggered until the beginning of your next turn.
Prerequisites: Mighty Warrior, +7 BAB


Stunning Strike: Once per encounter as a swift action, you may make the next successful attack you deliver in the round while using the power attack feat a stunning strike. The targeted creature must make a Fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 BAB+ Strength modifier). If it fails this save, it is stunned until the beginning of your next turn.
Prerequisites: Punishing Blow, +7 BAB



Finesse Tree
The central aspect of this tree is skill at arms- any yahoo can swing a sword, but it takes skill to aim for precise strikes.



Einhander: When using a light or one handed melee weapon to which you can apply the weapon finesse feat with one hand free, you may add your dexterity modifier as a bonus to damage rolls.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse


Greater Precise Strike: Whenever you use Precise Strike to deal bonus damage, you may add your key ability to each die of precision damage gained from Precise Strike.
Prerequisites: Precise Strike, BAB +7, Improved Feint


Parry: Whenever you could gain the benefits of Einhander and are wearing light or no armor, you may add your key ability as a dodge bonus to your AC and Reflex save, up to a maximum of one half your BAB.
Prerequisites: Einhander, BAB +3


Precise Strike: While you are able to gain the benefits of Einhander, at any time when you deny your opponent his dexterity bonus to AC, you may deal an extra 1d6 points of precision damage on your attacks. When your BAB reaches 8, and every four points of BAB thereafter, you may deal an additional die of damage with this ability.
Prerequisites: Einhander


Warrior's Skill: Whenever you would make a physical ability check in order to use a combat maneuver (such as trip, disarm, bullrush, ect), you may add your key ability as a competence bonus to that check.
Prerequisites: Parry, Combat Expertise


Also working on more samples from the Expert stuff.

Amechra
2012-10-14, 10:43 PM
I would suggest comparing how much of a gain a single talent is to other talents.

Because, in your examples, getting a +25% return from Power Attack is not equal to getting access to an entire school of magic, by a long shot.

Now, if, for example, you had a ton of talents that feed in on themselves in the Power tree (like getting a bonus to trip attempts based off your bonus damage from Power Attack, or letting you add the bonus damage you deal to your move speed while charging, or something like that, I can see a 25% increase in damage as useful. As it is now... it's so much weaker, it's not even funny.)

The-Mage-King
2012-10-14, 11:21 PM
I would suggest comparing how much of a gain a single talent is to other talents.

Because, in your examples, getting a +25% return from Power Attack is not equal to getting access to an entire school of magic, by a long shot.

Now, if, for example, you had a ton of talents that feed in on themselves in the Power tree (like getting a bonus to trip attempts based off your bonus damage from Power Attack, or letting you add the bonus damage you deal to your move speed while charging, or something like that, I can see a 25% increase in damage as useful. As it is now... it's so much weaker, it's not even funny.)

Fair enough, but remember: this will likely be a big rebalance. I'm also likely to use psionics as a base, with every mage getting general access to the same basic spells, but talents being needed to access like 1-3 spells/spell level.


And this is getting the basic idea set up at the moment- once I have a general frame for the stuff planned out, and some things to work from, I can add more, and tweak stuff as needed.