Bard build feedback

[ahenobarbi]

I'm going to try playing bard. It's my first time playing one, so I'm not sure if I didn't miss something so please share thoughts on my build. I want it to be able to do the following (in mid-low op group):

Buff party
Fight in melee
Be a skill-monkey


Rules info
We get 15,14,13,12,11,10 as "rolls" for stats.
No flaws.
I'll start at character level 7.
Core and Faerun is ok.
Other stuff has to be accepted on case-by-case basis by DM (so I want to keep non-core stuff to minimum).

Thoughts on charisma:


I'm considering 3 options:
Max: 15 + 5 (inherent) + 8 (enhancement) + 4 (leveling) + 2 (race) = 34
Mid: 15 + 5 (inherent) + 8 (enhancement) = 28
Min:15 + 1 (inherent) + 6 (enhancement) = 22

Comparision:
{table]Charisma|Modifier|Max spell level cast without gear|Bonus spells 1 |Bonus spells 2|Bonus spells 3|Bonus spells 4|Bonus spells 5|Bonus spells 6
34|12|6|3|3|3|3|2|2|2
28|9|6|3|2|2|2|2|1
22|6|6|2|2|2|1|1|1|1[/table]
I think I'll go with minimum version. I think extra slots are not worth investment. My DCs will suck but I planned to avoid save-offering spells any way. I don't plan to use leadership. I don't plan abusing skills
(like becoming diplomancer) so +6 bonus should be enough. Or did I miss something?

Starting stats:

{table]Str|14 (13+1@lvl 4)
Dex|11
Con|12
Int|14
Wis|10
Cha|15[/table]


Build: Bard 20 (Bardic Knack ACF).

Feats:

{table]1|Improved Initiative, Lingering Song
3|Song of the Heart
6|Melodic Casting
9|Versatile Performer
12|?
15|?
18|?
[/table]


Essential equipment (at level 7)


Badge of Valor
Crystal Echoblade



Essential spells

Inspirational Boost


Basic in-combat tactics:

Round 1
Cast Inspirational Boost (swift action)
Start inspire courage (standard action)
Whatever move action suits the situation
Activate Badge of Valor (immediate)
This gives me and my allies +4 courage (+1 (Base) +1 (Badge of Valor) +1 (Inspirational Boost) +1 (Song of Heart)) for next 10 rounds.

Following Rounds
Smack 'em with Crystal Echoblade getting +1/2 character level to hit and to damage for burning bardic music.
So I'd get
d8 + 10 damage (1 (Enhancement) +2 (Str) + 4 (Inspire Courage) + 3 (Echoblade) )
and
+15 to hit (+5 BAB)

Not great but I have money for +Str item and party is mid-low op so it should be ok.

If smacking things doesn't look like a good idea I can always cast :smallsmile:


So what do you think? How could I improve this character (keeping it buff and melee focused)? Do you think it will work as intended in game play?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Looks like you're doing a pretty good job of IC Optimization, at least as much as you can get with the materials you have access to.

I'd ask, beg, plead, and offer to sell your character's soul for the option to crack open Dragon Magic for Dragonfire inspiration. Yes, it really is that much fun. Draconic Heretage lets you change the flavor from fire to Sonic. The feat Dragontouched lets you qualify for DFI, and also opens up the Draconic Aura feat for even more passive party buffing. All from the same book. And if you dump either Versatile Performer or Improved Initiative, you can get them all.

If you're being allowed equipment outside of Core (I notice both Badge of Valor and Echoblade which are in MIC), you may wish to look at the Masterwork Instruments found in Complete Adventurer to further increase your Inspire Courage.

[ahenobarbi]

Looks like you're doing a pretty good job of IC Optimization, at least as much as you can get with the materials you have access to.

Well I could try to use anything - but I have to get it through DM first. And I don't want to make character that will have to hold back to much.


I'd ask, beg, plead, and offer to sell your character's soul for the option to crack open Dragon Magic for Dragonfire inspiration. Yes, it really is that much fun. Draconic Heretage lets you change the flavor from fire to Sonic. The feat Dragontouched lets you qualify for DFI, and also opens up the Draconic Aura feat for even more passive party buffing. All from the same book. And if you dump either Versatile Performer or Improved Initiative, you can get them all.

That would be nice if DM accepts it :smallredface:


If you're being allowed equipment outside of Core (I notice both Badge of Valor and Echoblade which are in MIC), you may wish to look at the Masterwork Instruments found in Complete Adventurer to further increase your Inspire Courage.

Thanks.

[Eldest]

Well I could try to use anything - but I have to get it through DM first. And I don't want to make character that will have to hold back to much.

That's the beauty of it: you're making the entire party powerful.

[ahenobarbi]

That's the beauty of it: you're making the entire party powerful.

Well... if it doubles damage we deal it may be considered overpowered.

[ahenobarbi]

Do cheese wrought kobolds qualify for Drago Fire Inspiration?

[Golden Ladybug]

Yes, yes they do.

In fact, since Dragonwraught Kobolds possess the Dragon Type, it can be inferred that they qualify for it automatically; you don't even need* Bardic Music or 11 Charisma!

...although, you probably should have those things, or else your bard would be fairly underwhelming :smallbiggrin:

*See Races of the Dragon, pg4, in the Dragonblood Subtype sidebar

[ahenobarbi]

Thanks. So what do you think about

Kobold Bard 7 (will go to bard 2)
Stats

Str 12 (15 - 4(racial) + 1 (lvl4))
Dex 12 (10 + 2(racial))
Con 12 (14 - 2(racial))
Int 15 (12 + 3(age))
Wis 14 (11 + 3(age))
Cha 16 (13 + 3(age))


Feats

1: Dragonwrought (Battledragon)
3: Dragon Fire Inspiration
6: Lingering Song
----planned---
9: Song of the Heart
12: Versatile Performer
15: ??
18: ??


I'll skip Draconic Aura because I don't have access to the book in which it is. Also Dex bonus and (big) Str penalty suggest I maybe would like to focus on ranged combat... is it possible to make a bard decent ranged combatant?

[Golden Ladybug]

Definitely; Inspire Courage and DFI remedy the major flaw in Archery, which is the lack of damage per shot. And because Archers tend to put huge amounts of arrows in the air, the bonuses for Inspire Courage and DFI become huge.

Archery is rather feat intensive though, so that can be a problem. Taking a dip in Cloistered Cleric, taking the Elf Domain, Knowledge Devotion and one other Domain/Devotion feat of your choice will grab some free damage/accuracy and more importantly, Point Blank Shot. You're also going to want Rapid Shot.

You can use the Bard feature described in the Eberron Campaign Setting to trade one of your Bardic Music abilities for a small list of Feats, one of which is Song of the Heart. The popular choice is to trade out Suggestion for SotH at level 6, and exchange Fascinate for Healing Hymn (Complete Champion). This'll open the Feat Slot to grab Rapid Shot.

You're stuck with Shortbows, unfortunately, but that's not too big of a hassle when you've got DFI/IC damage picking up the slack. I also like the Bow of Songs, from the MiC, a +1 Shortbow that lets you spend Bardic Music uses to add Charisma to Hit/Damage on an attack roll. Not necessarily the most economical use of your Bardic Music uses, but you end up with a lot of them that you probably won't be using every day.

Generally not the best bow around; if you can get your DM to allow it, this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) is the best bow (all you need is 10 str and you're set). Give it the Splitting Enhancement and things couldn't be better.

...make sure to make your character's middle name Hank though :smallbiggrin:

[ahenobarbi]

Definitely; Inspire Courage and DFI remedy the major flaw in Archery, which is the lack of damage per shot. And because Archers tend to put huge amounts of arrows in the air, the bonuses for Inspire Courage and DFI become huge.

Archery is rather feat intensive though, so that can be a problem. Taking a dip in Cloistered Cleric, taking the Elf Domain, Knowledge Devotion and one other Domain/Devotion feat of your choice will grab some free damage/accuracy and more importantly, Point Blank Shot. You're also going to want Rapid Shot.

You can use the Bard feature described in the Eberron Campaign Setting to trade one of your Bardic Music abilities for a small list of Feats, one of which is Song of the Heart. The popular choice is to trade out Suggestion for SotH at level 6, and exchange Fascinate for Healing Hymn (Complete Champion). This'll open the Feat Slot to grab Rapid Shot.

You're stuck with Shortbows, unfortunately, but that's not too big of a hassle when you've got DFI/IC damage picking up the slack. I also like the Bow of Songs, from the MiC, a +1 Shortbow that lets you spend Bardic Music uses to add Charisma to Hit/Damage on an attack roll. Not necessarily the most economical use of your Bardic Music uses, but you end up with a lot of them that you probably won't be using every day.

Generally not the best bow around; if you can get your DM to allow it, this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) is the best bow (all you need is 10 str and you're set). Give it the Splitting Enhancement and things couldn't be better.

Thanks I'll think about what I can get in the build. Bow of Songs would be great if it used 1 music/round not 1 music/shot... I'll run out of music quickly.. too quickly probably :/


...make sure to make your character's middle name Hank though :smallbiggrin:

Or figure out what is DC of UMD check to emulate name :smallbiggrin:

[Golden Ladybug]

Yeah, it is a shame; it'd be a damn good bow otherwise.

Back when any of the people I regularly play with let me use bards (loooooong story), I'd break out that effect for Boss Fights or desperation. Being able to throw your Charisma onto your attacks as a panic button is nice, but it costs a lot of daily resources.

[ahenobarbi]

Thanks for help. I'll just use the bow, it should be enough playing with the group in question.

Notes for my self

Stats

Str 6 (10 - 4(racial))
Dex 18 (15 + 2(racial) +1 (lvl4))
Con 12 (14 - 2(racial))
Int 15 (12 + 3(age))
Wis 14 (11 + 3(age))
Cha 16 (13 + 3(age))


Feats

1: Dragonwrought (Battledragon)
3: Dragon Fire Inspiration
6: Lingering Song
----planned---
9: Song of the Heart
12: Versatile Performer
15: ??
18: ??


Important Equipment:


Badge of Valor
Bow of Songs

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'll skip Draconic Aura because I don't have access to the book in which it is. Also Dex bonus and (big) Str penalty suggest I maybe would like to focus on ranged combat... is it possible to make a bard decent ranged combatant?

Draconic Aura is in the same book as DFI... Races of Dragon. Party bonus to initiative is fun. So is some of the other things, but the party bonus to initiative is never a bad thing.

[ahenobarbi]

Draconic Aura is in the same book as DFI... Races of Dragon. Party bonus to initiative is fun. So is some of the other things, but the party bonus to initiative is never a bad thing.

I thought it was in Dragon Magic. If it's in Races of the Dragon I'll check it out.

[Amnestic]

I thought it was in Dragon Magic. If it's in Races of the Dragon I'll check it out.

It's Dragon Magic. RotD has some other tasty dragon stuff, but Draconic Aura/DFI are Dragon Magic.

[nyjastul69]

I suggest a look at Subsonics from Complete Adventurer. It's a pretty solid feat for a Bard. No worries about the 'beasties around the corner' hearing you awesomely buff the party.

[Wise Green Bean]

Bard 20? No prestige class? :smallfrown:

Sublime chord, Complete Arcane(or is it Complete Mage?) is a very nice option. It gets you some sorcerer spells up to 9th level, HUGE bonus. And it advances most of the bardly goodness. Bard 10 Sublime chord 10 is perfectly solid for a medium OP group, and you can still do dragonfire inspiration stuff(the loss of bard levels aren't too much of a blow, only a -2 to your inspire courage).

Also for helping out your dragonfire inspiration, though this is distinctly on the high OP side, The Book of Exalted Deeds offers the feat Word of Creation to double the benefits of inspire courage for some nonlethal damage. This can mean some stupid numbers(I think fully optimized, it comes out to like +24d6/hit for 5+ rounds for everyone in the party...).

[ahenobarbi]

It's Dragon Magic. RotD has some other tasty dragon stuff, but Draconic Aura/DFI are Dragon Magic.

That explains why I couldn't find them in RoTD :smallsmile:


I suggest a look at Subsonics from Complete Adventurer. It's a pretty solid feat for a Bard. No worries about the 'beasties around the corner' hearing you awesomely buff the party.

Won't help with my party - they will try to kill everything that they can (being good and stuff...)


Bard 20? No prestige class? :smallfrown:

Sublime chord, Complete Arcane(or is it Complete Mage?) is a very nice option. It gets you some sorcerer spells up to 9th level, HUGE bonus. And it advances most of the bardly goodness. Bard 10 Sublime chord 10 is perfectly solid for a medium OP group, and you can still do dragonfire inspiration stuff(the loss of bard levels aren't too much of a blow, only a -2 to your inspire courage).

Thanks for the suggestion. The problem is it will not progress my Bardic Kanck and I really like idea of being semi-competent in all skills... but 9ths sound so tasty, maybe I'll use it :smallredface:


Also for helping out your dragonfire inspiration, though this is distinctly on the high OP side, The Book of Exalted Deeds offers the feat Word of Creation to double the benefits of inspire courage for some nonlethal damage. This can mean some stupid numbers(I think fully optimized, it comes out to like +24d6/hit for 5+ rounds for everyone in the party...).

I forgot to mention: my last character was exalted and I'm kind of tired of it so thank you but no.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Another option for a melee bard, since you don't want ToB, would be War Chanter. Basically, at Warchanter5, you get twin-song, and the capstone, Song of the Legion, is pretty much 'the party has full BAB, additional hit points, and everything your party summons has at a minimum your BAB'. It turns Summon Monster 1 into cruise missiles. Sure, they have maybe thirty hit points and go down in one hit, but they've got a BAB of +17, and your song is giving them +7 morale bonus to attack and damage, and +7d6 Sonic damage on every attack...

[ahenobarbi]

Another option for a melee bard, since you don't want ToB, would be War Chanter. Basically, at Warchanter5, you get twin-song, and the capstone, Song of the Legion, is pretty much 'the party has full BAB, additional hit points, and everything your party summons has at a minimum your BAB'. It turns Summon Monster 1 into cruise missiles. Sure, they have maybe thirty hit points and go down in one hit, but they've got a BAB of +17, and your song is giving them +7 morale bonus to attack and damage, and +7d6 Sonic damage on every attack...

Hmm twin-song would be nice, I could give them regular Inspire Courage and Dragonfire Inspiration-modified version.

But the cap wouldn't help paty much (we have a character with full BAB, one with close-to-full BAB, wizard and me).

However the more I think about it the better Sublime Chord looks. I mean I could do everything I wanted for price of some skill points...

I just wonder who thought that Song of Cosmic Fire would be a good capstone :smallsigh:

[Amnestic]

Hmm twin-song would be nice, I could give them regular Inspire Courage and Dragonfire Inspiration-modified version.

But the cap wouldn't help paty much (we have a character with full BAB, one with close-to-full BAB, wizard and me).

However the more I think about it the better Sublime Chord looks. I mean I could do everything I wanted for price of some skill points...

I just wonder who thought that Song of Cosmic Fire would be a good capstone :smallsigh:

Have you considered Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso+8 (Advancing Sublime Chord casting)?

Nets you Sublime Chord casting, a few possibly more tasty abilities and an extra 2 skill points per level.

[ahenobarbi]

Virtuoso performances don't look that good to me (well maybe except the cap stone), did I miss something?