Getting at the Truth

[fencepainter]

What are the best ways to get a hostile hostage to tell the truth? Assuming that we're not going to be able to use the diplomancer, what are good ways to get an NPC/captured monster to spill the beans?

[Amnestic]

Mindrape the information out of their head. Asking questions with words is so...plebeian.

More seriously, it'd be more helpful if you provided what level you're talking about and what resources (class or otherwise) you have to call upon.

[DarkestKnight]

if you want them to tell the truth, a zone of truth works wonders. if you just want them to talk, introduce their friend, Mr. Kneecap, to yours, senor Greatclub. Mix and match as desired.

[RFLS]

Straight up torture. Be sure to describe it in vivid detail in order to get higher circumstance bonuses to Intimidate. Your DM will appreciate graphic detail.

Depending on the level, either of the two above suggestions are good.

[Gnome Alone]

Have you tried asking really nicely?

Also torture.

[Exirtadorri]

I actually have experience in the hostile interrogation field. Violence will make them talk...but yhey will tell yoi anything you want to hear to make the pain stop. A solid deal with them getting away with a better situation then when they got there is a proven method with over a 94 percent success rate unless thwy are fanatical or terrified of an idea thay cant be delt with. I.e. mafia or catholic churxh

[Jeff the Green]

if you want them to tell the truth, a zone of truth works wonders. if you just want them to talk, introduce their friend, Mr. Kneecap, to yours, senor Greatclub. Mix and match as desired.

Zone of truth allows a Will save, unfortunately. You can debuff that, though.

There are also torture rules in BoVD to force them to talk, which ZoT doesn't do.

[Lisselys]

Aside from torturing them physically, which could be trivial for some people, you could threathen them morally, if they are good in some ways and you are evil. Otherwise, I think one of the best way to get informations from a reluctant hostage is to spoil him of his dignity.
Leave him naked and unseen, don't question him for days, make everything he says irrelevant. Don't feed him if not when you see he is starving, and after three or four lunches make him earn his food with informations. He will probably lie, if he does so you and you can recognize this (Sense motive) you just went bingo, 'cause you can fake to know the real info and just slam him again in his prison, not showing for days not even feeding him. Then try to get infos by offering freedom. If he refuses, go ahed and leave him rot. When he is about to die, fake some sort of rescue and take him away, lure him into talking about what he said to those pesky adventurers who enslaved him and let him slip infos. If he still doesn't talk, just abandon him. He got cojones, man.

[fencepainter]

Sorry not to have been forthcoming with the details. It's a 3.5/pathfinder/homebrew game. We're starting at level 1 and presumably going through level 20, but you never know. The DM allows all WOTC published materials with the right to veto or alter anything. Some Paizo and other 3rd party products are also possible.

I am asking this question because we've had this DM before. He likes the game to revolve around a story. He likes when we don't kill everyone and actually try to get information. He uses information as a central theme, likes espionage, interrogation, and forgery as tactics. He's modified the diplomacy rules, so no diplomancers. As a party, we're willing to divide up roles, and we want to come at acquiring information in different ways. One way we've identified to get information is to get it from captured hostiles and we're trying to find ways to do that.

Any help would be appreciated.

[Lisselys]

I tried to cover the basis without entering into spells/powers. Hope it gets useful :smallsmile:

[Water_Bear]

Zone of Truth combined with regular interrogation is good, although not foolproof. Ideally, cast it while they're unconcious so they're automatically "Willing" (:smallannoyed: Really WotC?) and thus fail their throw, then wake them up for the actual interrogation.

Detect Thoughts and asking people questions is a lot better; you'll know when they made their Will Save because you can't hear any thoughts, and the Bluff check to lie in your surface thoughts is beyond what most mortals can accomplish.

The best option IMO is Probe Thoughts from the Spell Compendium, or the Psionic equivalent in the SRD. You get 1 question/round for CL/ML rounds, and since you're asking their subconcious mind you get to see any relevant memories they have on the subject. Plus, even making their save just means that they don't have to answer that question... which you can ask again the next round.

[dspeyer]

I'll second Detect Thoughts. If you arrange matters right, you can get the subjects you want on the surface of his mind without his realizing you're interrogating him. Also, you can detect successful saves and it works against literally true but misleading statements.

Charm Person is another option.

[Jeff the Green]

You can also determine if they've made their save versus ZoT. Jack up your Sense Motive modifier (use guidance of the avatar plus divine insight for a +25 + CL bonus) and ask "Are you currently magically compelled to tell only the truth?"

[Morithias]

I actually have experience in the hostile interrogation field. Violence will make them talk...but yhey will tell yoi anything you want to hear to make the pain stop. A solid deal with them getting away with a better situation then when they got there is a proven method with over a 94 percent success rate unless thwy are fanatical or terrified of an idea thay cant be delt with. I.e. mafia or catholic churxh

I love this forum. In the poison threads we have medics, in interrogation threads we have cops (or whatever you are).

You can find anyone with training in an area here!

[Jeff the Green]

I actually have experience in the hostile interrogation field. Violence will make them talk...but yhey will tell yoi anything you want to hear to make the pain stop. A solid deal with them getting away with a better situation then when they got there is a proven method with over a 94 percent success rate unless thwy are fanatical or terrified of an idea thay cant be delt with. I.e. mafia or catholic churxh

Yep. In real life. In D&D torture is a little more effective. It tries to model the "say anything to stop it" problem, but with ZoT and other spells, it fails miserably.

Edit: Also, a lot of people are unfamiliar with this fact (hence the enormous support for torturing terrorists), so DMs may not play it that way.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you can get ahold of one, a thought extruder (LoM pg 68) is guaranteed effective. There're a few issues with it though.

It's a device crafted by mindflayers, which is a hindrance in and of itself for many; it requires that you open up the subject's skull without killing him, which may be tricky for a non-illithid; and it requires that you have telepathy, though that's just another spell or a level in mindbender.

You can keep asking questions and getting perfectly accurate, within the subject's knowledge, answers until they give out. It's a high-ish fort save per question or take a point of drain to each of your mental abilities for the subject and he has to make a will save V insanity when the process is completed.

Unfortunately, it's a bit time intensive at 20min to setup and 1min/question and requires an immobile subject.

Alternatively, you could always arrange the prisoner's "escape" after placing a few spells and/or items on his person to make following and divination spying a simple matter. Who needs him to tell you the truth when you can get him to show you instead. :smallamused:

[RFLS]

Posting real fast; don't know if it's been suggested yet. You could kill him and use speak with dead.

[DarkestKnight]

to add to RFLS, you could threaten him with it or a willingly submit to a ZoT spell. Or be redundant and do both anyways.

[SowZ]

Film Noir style one liners are guaranteed to work! Try something like, "Don't know what will break first, your will or my knuckles. But I guarantee your jaw will break pretty early on, friendo." Or, "You're nasal cavities may curve, but this needle doesn't take to sharp turns. Take a guess where it's going?"

[Medic!]

My personal favorite: "Practical Frost, if you would be so kind..."

Depending on the time frame and circumstances, intimidation (with a bonus from torture) or diplomacy, maybe gather information/sense motive checks to look for lies.

There are also some rules in BoED for redeeming evil NPCs via sustained diplomacy checks if they have the time to make friends etc, if the hostility is alginment based.

[SowZ]

My personal favorite: "Practical Frost, if you would be so kind..."

Depending on the time frame and circumstances, intimidation (with a bonus from torture) or diplomacy, maybe gather information/sense motive checks to look for lies.

There are also some rules in BoED for redeeming evil NPCs via sustained diplomacy checks if they have the time to make friends etc, if the hostility is alginment based.

Diplomacy: Eliminating the need for mind-raping/domination spells since 3rd edition!

[Mithril Leaf]

Why not do it all! Pump your sense motive with guidance of the avatar. Engage in torture, slowly breaking their will. Knock them out and cast zone of truth on them. Then use detect thoughts for another protection. Once you've got the information, kill him and use speak with dead to verify. Or I guess you could let him go, but that'd hardly be lawful evil :smallamused:

[Medic!]

With all the torture talk I feel obligated to ask, doesn't torture just give you a bonus on your intimidate check to change his attitude?

[Kelb_Panthera]

With all the torture talk I feel obligated to ask, doesn't torture just give you a bonus on your intimidate check to change his attitude?

Yep, and given that torture needs to be backed up with some form of magical verification, it's generally easier or overall more effective to skip the torture and go with a straight magical solution.

My suggestion of using a thought extruder would technically count as torture, but the torture is an incidental side effect, not the primary purpose of the device which, like I said, gives 100% accurate info of what the subject knows. It's just kinda pricey and tough to come by.

[Jeff the Green]

With all the torture talk I feel obligated to ask, doesn't torture just give you a bonus on your intimidate check to change his attitude?

Not so much. Check out the BoVD rules. Page 37.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

No real need to torture when you've got Detect Thoughts around. Also Charm Person, assuming target is Humanoid, works wonders for suddenly making him chatty.

Other options include using Illusions to fool the prisoner into revealing information, liberal use of Diplomacy skill, and of course Sense Motive. Suggestion also has distinct possibilities.

Failing that... well, there's always the Intimidate skill.

[LanSlyde]

Someone in your group needs to PrC into Emissary of Barachiel. It doesn't matter how your DM changed the rules for diplomacy, hang around one of those long enough and you will be Good. No torture, no interrogation, just spending some quality time with the Word Bearers.

Quite possibly one the most "evil" PrCs in BoED.

[Otodetu]

All of these posters presume you can be evil, and Crude like a rusty spoon.

Assume you have the lawful good fellow that needs to get info out of a suspect for a trail all you need to do is use discern lies and tell them not to resist the spell, if they do resist or try to stall then they are as good as guilty by magical law-school. (No spell resistance and not mind affecting so it works on undead and outsiders)

Used in conjunction with zone of truth you can get good mileage out of it as you can flat out ask if they resisted the zone of truth spell, if discern lies goes off then they did, if not then you know they have accepted the zone of truth spell and a more lengthy interrogation can proceed.


This does sort of miss the point, for a hostile prisoner might be a cleric of Nerull that have been captured and the paladins need him to tell where the rest of the cultists are. Best bet would be to bribe him and use magic to see if he tells the truth. (We are here presuming the paladins cannot torture the cleric because of alignment issues, but because of said alignment issues the cleric also knows that if he betrays his comrades he will actually be set free, for the lawful good fellows would not break their promise.)

[Amnestic]

All of these posters presume you can be evil, and Crude like a rusty spoon.


Mindrape isn't evil, it's just efficient!

[navar100]

It depends on the DM. Some DMs refuse to tell their players anything. They don't want to spoil the surprise. They want to keep things challenging. The party needs to earn it. All sorts of reasons. If the party needs to go through hoops to get any information, you have that type of DM.

For a more reasonable DM, a simple Diplomacy or Intimidate check, with reasonable roleplay most likely, is all that's needed. For prisoners who are the BBEG's Lieutenant or other Important Figures, spending a resource effort - Zone of Truth, Detect Thoughts, etc. should provide useful information if the skill check is not high enough or wouldn't work at all. Both cases are accepting the need to make skill DCs and failed saving throws.

[Slipperychicken]

Inflicting status effects to lower his saves and skills (Shaken and Sickened come to mind. Inflicting them shouldn't be too hard). This will lower his Bluff and his Will saves, making interrogation much easier. Shaken and Sickened alone net him -4 to saves and skills.

Deal Charisma and Wisdom damage until he's unconscious, then heal 1 point at a time till he's conscious (ideally, he will be at 1 in both scores). This will absolutely cripple his Will saves, Sense Motive, and Bluff by turning his ability modifiers to each into -4. Net loss in saves and skill checks should be about -5 to -8

Have some way to track his number of Hit Dice (let this number be N), then apply approximately (N-1) negative levels (he dies at N negative levels, so beware). This will penalize both his saving throws and skill checks by (N-1).

Use Aid Another to increase your Intimidate, Bluff and Sense Motive checks as much as the DM will allow (+2 for each helper).

Strip him of all items, whether they register as magic or not, and move them very far away from him (keeping him naked and cold might impose penalties,). If he was getting boosts from items, they are now gone. If possible, remove all magic auras via Dispel Magic

[ShriekingDrake]

It strikes me as possible that you could do something with Suggestion, though that may not be as useful as some of what's already been posted.

If you're a good party, torture may affect how the DM treats you, so I'd be careful there.

[Slipperychicken]

If your DM is familiar with real-world torture "enhanced interrogation" techniques, Waterboarding is stunningly effective (look up some videos on it. People break in seconds). It simulates drowning, and might net you a circumstance bonus.

For the "will say anything to stop the pain" trouble, just pump your Sense Motive check, and debuff his Bluff check.

Keep the guy unable to see (bag over head). This will increase his stress level.

Keep him unable to move (Dex=0 is a good way)

Soul-destruction/imprisonment is a far worse fate than death. If you can Bluff having one, that should shake his conviction if he whines about a good afterlife.

[fencepainter]

Thanks for all the suggestions so far.

It was not my intention to provoke a discussion of the most effective ways to torture people in the real world. While I know that we often extrapolate from the real world to make sense of the game world, but I am less likely to be dishing out specific media and mechanisms of torture around this particular gaming table. (I'm dishing no hate on the torture experts here--we need experts on all sorts of things and appreciate when they are willing to share their expertise--I'm just manicuring the trajectory of the thread.)

I really am looking for game mechanics. It seems that torture is one of them, though we're all likely playing good alignment characters so that may limit what we can actually do in the torture department.

[Jeff the Green]

For good...

Well, I think your best bet is magic (probably your best bet if you're evil as well) or trickery. Enchantment or illusion.

[Kelb_Panthera]

All of these posters presume you can be evil, and Crude like a rusty spoon.

Assume you have the lawful good fellow that needs to get info out of a suspect for a trail all you need to do is use discern lies and tell them not to resist the spell, if they do resist or try to stall then they are as good as guilty by magical law-school. (No spell resistance and not mind affecting so it works on undead and outsiders)

Used in conjunction with zone of truth you can get good mileage out of it as you can flat out ask if they resisted the zone of truth spell, if discern lies goes off then they did, if not then you know they have accepted the zone of truth spell and a more lengthy interrogation can proceed.


This does sort of miss the point, for a hostile prisoner might be a cleric of Nerull that have been captured and the paladins need him to tell where the rest of the cultists are. Best bet would be to bribe him and use magic to see if he tells the truth. (We are here presuming the paladins cannot torture the cleric because of alignment issues, but because of said alignment issues the cleric also knows that if he betrays his comrades he will actually be set free, for the lawful good fellows would not break their promise.)
The problem with this is that, other than guaranteed effective methods like no-save no-spell resistance deep probe mind reading, non-coercive techniques can be circumvented either through clever word-play or simply refusing to speak altogether. Neither half-truths, silence, nor nonsensical tangents are lies that zone of truth or discern lies can do anything about. Those spells prevent and detect lies, not bluff checks.

For good...

Well, I think your best bet is magic (probably your best bet if you're evil as well) or trickery. Enchantment or illusion.

It's always best to combine the two if you're not going to use a more coercive method of information extraction.

Like I said, bug him, let him think he got away; preferably with a dose of disinformation to give to his allies; then see where he goes and what he does, using both magic and mundane methods.

[Slipperychicken]

All my suggestions about debuffing the target apply to non-torture interrogation.


I guess you could use a Diplomacy roll to represent "clean" interrogation. Just get your DM on board with the idea first.

[Kelb_Panthera]

All my suggestions about debuffing the target apply to non-torture interrogation.


I guess you could use a Diplomacy roll to represent "clean" interrogation. Just get your DM on board with the idea first.

...... :smallconfused: Dealing enough ability damage to the guy to make him only dimly aware of himself (cha) and his surroundings (wis) and completely immobilize him (dex, which runs into the issue of him being unable to speak) doesn't constitute torture to you?

By that definition my suggestion of using a thought extruder isn't torture either.

[The Second]

Ok, how about a program of positive reinforcement.

Cast your detect lies as usual, and every time you get the truth, the subject gets a reward, say steak and lobster for his meals. Every time you get a lie, the subject gets thin gruel.

You likely to get better results from a goblin or orc than from a zealot, however. Even a commoner with above average Con and Wis would be fairly resistant to it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I suppose the least invasive, most effective way to get the truth, assuming the target isn't immune to mind-affecting, is to just spam probe thoughts until he fails the save.

Actually, that gives me an idea. There's a cursed item in the DMG, that I forget the name of, that causes the wearer to believe he can hear the thoughts of others while it broadcasts his to everyone around him. Attach one of those to him in a manner that doesn't allow him to remove it, then place him in a room with an invisible ally to listen to the broadcast thoughts until he thinks about what you need to know. Mindblank the listener just in case.

[WarKitty]

I suppose the least invasive, most effective way to get the truth, assuming the target isn't immune to mind-affecting, is to just spam probe thoughts until he fails the save.

Actually, that gives me an idea. There's a cursed item in the DMG, that I forget the name of, that causes the wearer to believe he can hear the thoughts of others while it broadcasts his to everyone around him. Attach one of those to him in a manner that doesn't allow him to remove it, then place him in a room with an invisible ally to listen to the broadcast thoughts until he thinks about what you need to know. Mindblank the listener just in case.

For less savvy prisoners, asking the right questions is likely to bring the info up.

[Gnome Alone]

I am now freaked out about jokingly suggesting torture now that people are bringing it up seriously. Yeesh, just do some divinations and crap, people - no need to make this fun game as horrific as real life like that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I am now freaked out about jokingly suggesting torture now that people are bringing it up seriously. Yeesh, just do some divinations and crap, people - no need to make this fun game as horrific as real life like that.

It wasn't you.

The nature of the topic ensured that torture would come up eventually. It's just a natural thought to come up when the subject of getting information out of someone comes up that you could force it out of him.

It doesn't help that the only way that's 100% always guaranteed is the thought extruder, at least as far as I know. Seriously, there's no way to resist it and you can't beat it by not talking, half-truths, or any other means except voluntarily failing your saving throws to end up in a coma that much faster. Even that won't work if the operator has an ally on-hand to restore the ability drain during the extraction.

I seriously don't know of, and strongly suspect there isn't, any other method that's absolutely fool-proof. The only saving grace for the victim of one of these things is that he may have been fed disinformation in case he was captured.

[Slipperychicken]

Cast your detect lies as usual, and every time you get the truth, the subject gets a reward, say steak and lobster for his meals. Every time you get a lie or silence, the subject gets thin gruel no meals.


Fixed that for ya. If the guy's serious, he isn't going to sell out his country/tribe/relatives because his rations are icky. Hunger, on the other hand, does wonders to people's morality. Maybe you can give him a few extremely-spicy crumbs each day, clearly not enough to quench hunger, and which make his mouth burn for the water he gets for being a good boy.

EDIT: If he can make a long streak of cooperation (giving you information for a week without lying or stalling), you steadily give him slightly better accomodations. If he gets fussy, take it all away (and make him vomit so his last meal won't sustain him), and he can start over from exposure and starvation.


...... :smallconfused: Dealing enough ability damage to the guy to make him only dimly aware of himself (cha) and his surroundings (wis) and completely immobilize him (dex, which runs into the issue of him being unable to speak) doesn't constitute torture to you?


I think of that more as drugging than torture, merely softening him up for the actual interrogation (AFAIK, ability damage isn't Evil, although poisons which deal it are, so we should be in the clear there). For immobilization, I guess you can go back to hogtying him for (essentially) the same effect.

[Otodetu]

The problem with this is that, other than guaranteed effective methods like no-save no-spell resistance deep probe mind reading, non-coercive techniques can be circumvented either through clever word-play or simply refusing to speak altogether. Neither half-truths, silence, nor nonsensical tangents are lies that zone of truth or discern lies can do anything about. Those spells prevent and detect lies, not bluff checks.


It's always best to combine the two if you're not going to use a more coercive method of information extraction.

Like I said, bug him, let him think he got away; preferably with a dose of disinformation to give to his allies; then see where he goes and what he does, using both magic and mundane methods.


You do not accept half truths or evasion, in the scenario of a trail yes or no should suffice. As long as it is a yes\no question then you cannot bluff your way out of it. If you choose to remain silent then you are judged guilty.

In other scenarios I agree that surveillance, while resource intensive, is the most humane and efficient solution.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You do not accept half truths or evasion, in the scenario of a trail yes or no should suffice. As long as it is a yes\no question then you cannot bluff your way out of it. If you choose to remain silent then you are judged guilty.

In other scenarios I agree that surveillance, while resource intensive, is the most humane and efficient solution.

Sticking to yes/no questions avoids half-truths, but it does nothing to force answers out of the target, and guilt isn't really the issue at hand in most cases, since most detainees in a typical D&D game will be captured enemy combatants. Even yes/no isn't foolproof. The target can go into unasked-for elaboration, complete with the aformentioned half-truths, that can confuse the meaning of his yes or no answer. For that matter someone crafty enough can make even an honest yes or no come off in a way that's deliberately misleading.

Worse, while it's an epic DC it's technically possible to fool discern lies with a bluff check which, along with successful will saves, can render divinatory probes utterly useless. Though this is an admittedly uncommon occurence, it does mean that divination isn't guaranteed effective even against a naked target.

If you're not going to compell answers with at the very least some sort of credible threat of consequence to non-cooperation (even if it's complete bull) you're not going to get anywhere through interrogation.

Surveillance is definitely the way to go if you can't or won't use some means of compelling cooperation. Depending on the subject it's usually a heck of a lot faster too.

[Water_Bear]

What's really hilarious, in a sort of black comedy/political satire way, is that torture in this scenario is counterproductive and diplomacy is useful, just like in real life.

Read the BoVD torture rules; the victim can always make Bluff checks to lie (and the torturer actually takes a -3 penalty to their Sense Motive), and the Intimidate checks made by the torturer are just to make them say something. Using magical means to sort truths from falsehoods... puts you right back at square one! You have gained nothing from using torture, and gaurenteed the prisoner will never willingly cooperate with you again.

So what is the most effective method? Ironically, the exact same one we use here in the real world; you talk the person into trusting you and then tell them you can't help them without the information. Diplomacy checks are flat DCs, which even a low-level character without magic can reliably make with a little effort. Spend some time to go from Hostile to Friendly, or even just use Charm Person, and then give them the truth; you can help them get out of this mess, but only if they cooperate. Add those same magical detections from earlier to make sure they're sincere and you're golden.

Yeah you don't get to be Dirty Harry or Jack Baeur but it's more effective, safer, more humane, and leaves you with a long-term asset you can pump for more information later. Of course, it totally fits the political climate that no-one would push for that option... :smallsigh:

[dspeyer]

Probably the most awesome option is to find out what your prisoner really wants and convince him that talking to you is the best way to get it. There's no general way to do this -- it's different each time. This sequence (http://project-apollo.net/mos/mos384.html) is a good example.

[Tvtyrant]

Use a disguise and a compulsion. If you know what the guys boss looks like, have someone dress up like them and then put a suggestion on the guy.

"I suggest you repeat my plans back to me so I know you got them right" is a good one.

It is too bad there is no phones in the universe, because "call your boss" would be a classic.

[Kelb_Panthera]

No phones? I've got two word for you: aspect, mirror.

An organization willing to work toward easier communication for all could easily turn a number of sets of these things into an old-school telephone network. Call the operator, and he calls the oppropriate owner of a mirror from a different set, then places the two mirrors at his point facing each other.

Lol. "Thank you for using spell-line, how may I direct your call?"

[Slipperychicken]

Use a disguise and a compulsion. If you know what the guys boss looks like, have someone dress up like them and then put a suggestion on the guy.

"I suggest you repeat my plans back to me so I know you got them right" is a good one.

It is too bad there is no phones in the universe, because "call your boss" would be a classic.

At least there's Voicemail (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sending.htm). Sending Stones (MIC, Sending 1/day between two rocks. 1,400), if you need to hold something up to your ear.

[Keld Denar]

Is it just me, or is Discern Lies incredibly disappointing compared to Zone of Truth? The former is single-ish target, rounds/level, and requires concentration. The later is AoE so it could affect multiple targets (tie subjects up back to back, first one to talk doesn't get executed), lasts minutes per level (plenty if time for interrogations), and doesn't require concentration (so you can cast other spells like Divine Insight for the skill boost).

Discern Lies doesn't really net you anything over Zone of Truth other than the target can think that they deceived you. That's not really a boost worth 2 spell levels and crappier circumstances. Both allow a save just the same.

Unless I'm missing something.

I do like the Amulet of Thought Projection, though. Clever use of cursed items is always a boon. My Church Inquisitor will totally be buying one now that he is in Sharn. You can buy anything in Sharn.

[Heliomance]

if you want them to tell the truth, a zone of truth works wonders. if you just want them to talk, introduce their friend, Mr. Kneecap, to yours, senor Greatclub. Mix and match as desired.

Zone of Truth is almost entirely useless. Because not only does it allow a save to ignore it, the caster doesn't know whether they passed, failed, or even attempted the save. That means even if they failed the save and are speaking only the truth, you still can't trust what they say because for all you know they might have passed it.