Undead and Immortal Fortitude

[Medic!]

Ok, so I just have to start with a disclaimer: I'm sure this is a very very dumb question, and I'm probably just mind-jacking myself needlessly, so whaddaya-say playground?

Does An undead with the Immortal Fortitude stance have to make the saves granted by the stance?

My brain keeps running in a circle:

1) Yes. You're only making a save against hitpoint damage and being destroyed by it (not a death-effect), and objects are vulnerable to both.

2) No. It's a save against death/disablement, and objects don't make such saves.


As a bonus dumb-question: If for whatever reason someone ruled that undead didn't have to make the saves for Immortal Fortitude, would that render the save an auto-success, or would it eliminate the save making the stance do absolutely nothing?


(Not really looking to put this into practice, it's more of a "I'm up and have nothing better to do what-if" kinda thing)

[Cespenar]

Undead are not objects, and Immortal Fortitude is not a death-effect.

So, yeah, you make the save.

Bonus dumb question answer: Not needing to make a save would roughly translate to you bypassing that effect, so it'd be kinda like an "auto-success", yeah. Unless the stance has a sub-clause stating that the stance loses its effect if the save doesn't apply. But I don't remember Immortal Fortitude having a clause like that (don't quote me on that).

Which would be my own uninformed interpretation.

[Medic!]

Yeah the only thing close to a clause like that in Immortal Fortitude is that after 3 save attempts the stance ends. What's giving me fits is the undead subtype entry from the monster manual:

Immunity to any effect that requires a fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless.)

EDIT: which pushes me even more towards Yes, you make the save. Immortal Fortitude doesn't work on objects, obviously...but it would also be considered harmless I think?


EDIT EDIT: And now I'm back in a circle...the stance doesn't require a fortitude save, but dying from HP damage while in the stance does...so now I'm leaning more towards undead being unkillable by HP damage once Immortal Fortitude starts. Stance starts, you get damaged to 0 hp, the stance says "make a save" but the undead type says "this isn't harmless, and objects never make a save vs. destruction for being reduced to 0 hp...so I am immune to the HP damage." Meaning they don't even attempt the save? (which would mean the stance can't be forcibly ended)

I really think I'm overthinking this =\

[Cespenar]

It would be harmless, I think, because Immortal Fortitude itself is harmless, and the save originates from that stance. But it's a guess.

[JBento]

I'd like to point out that, by RAW, Immortal Fortitude doesn't work if you're Undead.

Undead are never disabled and they're not killed - when reaching 0 hp they are, like constructs, destroyed.

[TuggyNE]

I'd like to point out that, by RAW, Immortal Fortitude doesn't work if you're Undead.

Undead are never disabled and they're not killed - when reaching 0 hp they are, like constructs, destroyed.

And there you have it folks.

[Medic!]

Thanks for weighing in folks, it puts my mind at ease...I knew there was something simply I wasn't taking into account.


Side-haha, reading through it all again, if the stance did work for undead, RAW the save DC would always be 0, as you can't go into negative HP :smallcool: