Endless wishes, what should I use them on?

[qwertyu63]

As the title.

Small context: I got my hands on a Staff of 50 wishes. My DM is letting me use those wishes to get more Staffs of 50 wishes, so I have all the wishes I could want. Note: If it matters, I am a level 14 Focused Conjurer, lacking Evocation, Necromancy, and Enchantment. I've already given the entire party +5 to all their abilities, and greatly improved their gear.

[Alleran]

The Wish and the Word (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Wish_and_the_Word_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_ Build%29).

[Golden Ladybug]

Short Answer: everything

Long Answer: everything, but keep an eye on your DM. This sounds suspicious to me.

[Madcrafter]

Short Answer: everything

Long Answer: everything, but keep an eye on your DM. This sounds suspicious to me.

Yeah, there is no way this ends well. At the very least I'm guessing its a temporary thing, at the worst... well, it's Wish.

I'd be tempted just to see how far you can push it until the wishes start having "unforeseen consequences".

[MrLemon]

Anyone else thinking of xkcd (http://xkcd.com/1086/) right now?

[Mithril Leaf]

Inherent bonuses all the way. You can't lose those when the DM decides to take away your toy:smallamused:

[Medic!]

+1 to all the inherent bonuses, and I'd use 'em to permancy every buff under the sun on your party. There's no way that the permanancy/inherent bonuses can be "stolen from an epic level wizard somewhere" like the staves of wishes can be :smalltongue:

And obviously you've already wished for pile after pile of GP and used wish to simulate spells for upgrading equipment too...I have to applaud you, at our table if the DM says Wish every player immediately starts drafting a 3 page speech to word some crazy overpowered ability with minimal chance of twisted granting (never taking into account a flat-out failure).

EDIT: Stacked permanent Heroics could work out well for someone as well...

[ericgrau]

1. It's a trap, be wary.
2. You can do anything, this isn't a game anymore. Time to talk to the DM or get a new one.

It doesn't end well either way. Hope for #1.

[Gavinfoxx]

Tools that mitigate your need to use actual _wishes_ to achieve your goals of infinite wealth and such.

Remember -- there are LOTS of ways of generating wealth and items in D&D...

A lock of hair from a djinn, a large block of ice, a scroll of simulacrum, a supply of powdered rubies... lots of ways to mitigate the need for lots and lots of wishes for getting 'stuff'.

Get several wondrous items that cast spells that are useful in creating wealth and magic items, keeping each item under 15k gp (the 3.0 limit for cost in magic item creation via wish).

Try to stay within the 'safe' effects of Wish, as written -- you don't want to give the GM ANY chance to say 'you went outside the boundaries of safe options!'. You want to use wish to enable the use of magic that is NOT wish to do stuff...

Read this handbook for ideas, if you want to focus on 'getting stuff' aspect of Wishes:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aG4P3dU6WP3pq8mW9l1qztFeNfqQHyI22oJe09i8KWw/edit

So...

1. Minimize your uses of actual wishes to get infinite wealth
2. Attempt to not go outside the range of what wishes can safely provide, even going so far as to stay within the 3.0 restrictions for safe to summon magical items for wish
3. Maximize your use of non-wish based magic, via magical items

49 Wishes should most definitely be sufficient to enable you to do this!

[hex0]

Permanency everything on everyone is a good start...

[OracleofWuffing]

World's largest sandwich, King of the World, Everything back to normal.

...

And, uh, repeat the cycle. As many times as it takes.

[Medic!]

Finally a use for Toughness (permanent Heroics...over and over and over and over)

[QuidEst]

Hmm. My guess is a poorly designed Lotus Eater Machine (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LotusEaterMachine).

Don't ask for what to do mechanically- figure out what your character would like to do. Your character now has the power of the gods at their beck and call. Not quite, but they probably feel that way. What's their ambition- a kingdom, the world, a beautiful spouse, immortality, apotheosis, peace? You can still have a fun game with lots of power. Maybe your character decides to start playing genie, granting wishes. Maybe they get a layered permanent Death Ward and Ring of Death Ward and make a succubus fall in love with them. Maybe they start building their own world on a separate plane. Make it interesting!

[hex0]

Also, if you can get Wishes to grant feats (which has been debated ad nauseam), then there is always that. Yes, you can pick the feats that are 'good, but not worth spending a feat on' like Blind Fight. Improved Initiative for everyone is always fun

Honestly, if you can wish for ability boost (1/4 of a character's levels) then feats (1/3 of a character levels) isn't that bad.

[nedz]

Whatever you want.

1. I wish I had a Cheese Sandwich
2. I wish I had some pickle in my Cheese Sandwich
3. I wish I had a Plate to put my Cheese Sandwich on
4. I wish I had a Table to put my Plate on
5. I wish I had a Chair to sit on whilst I eat my Cheese Sandwich
6. I wish I had a Pint of Beer to drink with my Cheese Sandwich
7. I wish I had a Pint of Beer, in a glass, to drink with my Cheese Sandwich
8. ...

Your character could get very lazy.

[Bronk]

Be sure to keep track of all these staves you're wishing up... there's nothing to stop anyone else in your world from using them the same way you are.

Given that... why was your character able to find this staff in the first place? It wasn't next to a smoking corpse by any chance, was it?

Or... maybe you could wish for everyone in the world to have a staff, and start up an Immortals game!

[PaperMustache]

Nah bro. Just be a dragon.

[Gavinfoxx]

Nah bro. Just be a dragon.

And then some fool comes along and does a Shivering Touch on you and kills you. Yea...

[The Second]

I sense a major wish backlash in your future... Wishes are never good things, especially when you manage to get an unlimited number of them.

Things to watch for:

The gods decide you've grown too powerful and squish you.

A local ruler decides you've grown too powerful and decides to send an army after you.

A local dragon decides you've grown too powerful and recruits others of it's kind to squish you.

All of the above. At the same time.

[dwlc2000]

first of all, I MUST know what book staff of 50 wishes is in, second, your dm is crazy for letting a level 14 have that item and use said item to make more of it. But, you should use it to make MEAT.

[blazinghand]

Your character should wish peace and prosperity over the land, with happiness and fulfillment for all creatures! Wish that he lived in a world without suffering and pain and horror, a world without sin. Wish that everything was different.

After the cosmos has been changed eternally to create paradise, close the book and roll up a new character.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The only wish that won't end in disaster is this, "I wish I'd never found this f***ing staff."

Edit: after making this post, it took me all of 5 minutes to twist even that wish, and I wasn't even trying. It just popped into my head completely unbidden. The dm informs you, "since you never found it, someone else did. Now you have to get it away from him because he's mucking up the whole world."

Your DM's a wish twister of the highest order if he's comfortable with this item, which is so far beyond the WBL of even a 20th level caster that it's absurd. Seriously, that thing is worth more than the WBL of your entire party.

I wouldn't even chance the safe-list wishes if I were you. Just bury that thing in a lead box in a random field somewhere and never speak of it again.

[willpell]

2. You can do anything, this isn't a game anymore. Time to talk to the DM or get a new one.

While this is probably true in practice, theoretically you could make a briefly interesting scenario out of the question "If you could do anything, what would you do?" Not everyone is going to skip straight to a boring answer like "I make the whole world perfect forever and live happily ever after"; seeing the exact steps along the way might conceivably be interesting. There aren't very many shows that demonstrate an absurdly powerful character who can do basically anything and manage to make him interesting, but it has been done on rare occasions.

[rockdeworld]

I'd start with small things, like wands.

Infinite wands of Cure Moderate Wounds.
Infinite wands of Lesser Restoration.
Out of combat healing is always great, and this makes it free.

Wands of Resist Energy and Bull's Strength/Bear's Endurance/Animal's X.
Wands of Knock, Invisibility, Rope Trick, Mirror Image, Blur, Misdirection, Protection From Arrows, Summon Monster II.
Those are great Wizard spells to have handy.

Rings of Sustenance for everybody.

Immovable Rods. Bags of Holding. Circlets of Persuasion.

Those are going by Frank&K rules of making magic items of no greater than 5k gp. 3.5 Wish can do 10k or more.

+5 to all stats for everybody.

Then start getting into the bigger stuff.

Candles of Invocation. Scrolls of Gate, Shapechange, Time Stop and Teleportation Circle. Give yourself millions of gold and gems (eg. Diamonds).

Hit up the other uses of wish, eg. to remove afflictions, raise dead, teleport, and turn back time.

Stop when your DM decides "maybe this wasn't such a great idea after all."

[dascarletm]

I would hang onto it and keep it a secret from everyone.

Like others have said, with that power people will most like come to take it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I know I've already posted on this topic but, seriously, that staff may as well have "This is a DM trap" written on it in every language concievable.

I just can't believe any DM, no matter how new to DM'ing, could be so foolish as to put such an item into play without understanding that it's effectively unlimited power and, as such, will utterly ruin his game by making it impossible to actually challenge his players.

For your character's sake, for your party's sake, and for the sake of your game world, get rid of that thing in the safest most obscure manner possible.


..... actually, that's the only thing I could see such an item being used for; it's a mcguffin that you're supposed to find a way to safely dispose of without using it. It's the one ring on super-steroids. Even in that capacity it still screams trap; and it doesn't sound to me, going by the op, that it was setup as such.

[TuggyNE]

All the Necklaces of Fireballs (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=191).

[Tvtyrant]

Build a massive dungeon complex with it and tell everyone you put it at the bottom? Wish the actual thing out of existence and pretend none of this ever happened.

[Invader]

1. Wish you were a little bit taller.
2. Wish you were a baller.
3. Wish you had a girl who looked good (so you could call her).
4. Wish you had a rabbit.
5. Wish it was in a hat.
6. Wish it had a bat.
7. Wish you had a 64 impala.

[Agent 451]

Learn from the Halloween lessons of The Simpsons.


I’ll make a wish that can’t backfire.

I wish for a turkey sandwich…on rye bread…with lettuce and mustard, and…*and*…I don’t want any zombie turkeys, I don’t want to turn into a turkey myself, and I don’t want any other weird surprises. You got it?…

Hey! Not bad. Nice, hot mustard. Good bread. The turkey’s a little dry…

The turkey’s a little dry!

Oh, foe and cursed thing! What demon from the depths of hell created thee?!

[Forrestfire]

I would suggest getting just enough staves as you need, and using them to create a ton of Contingent Wishes, from Complete Arcane.

Also, contingent true resurrections, contingent delay deaths, etc.

If it's Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm)as per the Player's Handbook, doing things like this is perfectly safe from the DM twisting and perverting the wishes.

After you get all the buffs you need, contingent spells, items, and whatnot, use the staves of wishes to create a huge dungeon complex (using magically-fortified walls to bypass the 25000 gold restriction for nonmagical items), and then cover it with a mountain. Fill it with traps and golems, or maybe undead, empty the staves, and put the (now-empty) staves at the end of the dungeon.

Then hire some bards to spread rumors... :smallamused:

[Kerilstrasz]

Give yourself and your group all the feats,specials,Sp,Su,Ex abilities you like...
Give yourself and your group all the kinds of immunities you can think of...
Give yourself and your group the ability to travel 5 min back in time usable 1 per day(more time or uses would just ruin the game).
Give yourself and your group infinite dmg reduction/- and multiply your Hp by your
full birthday (HP*14.03.1083)
Wish the greater King/Queen of each plane to be your trusted ally
Dont wish for too many spells & spell lists.. you ll get confused and tired soon...
Wish for some at will spell like abilities like instant teleport with no mistake 1/day

after everything you wished for, pick up your cell phone, order the biggest sized
pizza , give it to your DM and tell him: " My lord your wish is fulfilled" !

[Forrestfire]

Oh yeah, and a safe way to get as many feats as you want is:

Heroics + Permanency, then Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos.

Note that this only works if the DM allows heroics to be permanencied.

[Deathkeeper]

You should make an elaborate string of wishes that causes a series of events in several hundred years that may or may not threaten the entire world, the final one being to have your character drop dead and be reborn during that time as whatever you want, therefore creating the next campaign.

Or you could do that smart thing and just bury the artifact; somehow it'll get you killed, enslaved, tortured, soul-trapped, or any combination of the four.

[scurv]

Are you sure it is not a monkeys paw?
Have the tree's began to wilt?
Has solid stone began to turn to mud?
Does Dracula need a lesser spf suntan lotion?
I know, Is it bleeding the life force out of creation?or is there some forbidden wish? Perhaps it is a bet between the gods?
BTW I forgot who pays the tab for this meal?

[TuggyNE]

Give yourself and your group the ability to travel 5 min back in time usable 1 per day(more time or uses would just ruin the game).

Nowai! Isn't it a little late to worry about ruining the game?


Give yourself and your group infinite dmg reduction/- and multiply your Hp by your full birthday (HP*14.03.1083)

What would this even mean? You can't multiply by a date; you could however multiply by e.g. the number of days since 0001-01-01, or similar. (Also, how does this not ruin the game? :smalltongue:)

[Kelb_Panthera]

If it's Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm)as per the Player's Handbook, doing things like this is perfectly safe from the DM twisting and perverting the wishes.

No, they're supposed to be safe if the DM is a stickler for the rules.

By this item's very inclusion he's shown a willingness to flout WBL, and the alarm bells it should be setting off point to the notion that there are no safe wishes. I'd bet money that he'll gleefully twist any wish made and cite rule zero if the player complains "but it was on the safe-list," especially given the fact that wish twisting is a major trope for the fantasy genre and so very many threads have been made because of, if they're not dedicated to, twisted wishes.

Just don't do it man.

[Augmental]

Or maybe it's a really high-powered campaign?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Or maybe it's a really high-powered campaign?

That's not high power, it's unlimited power. Unlimited power isn't a game anymore. Even the gods can't create unlimited wish effects by RAW, at least not unless wish is on a domain list that I'm forgetting.

I wouldn't normally argue this hard when giving game advice for somebody else's table, but this just screams trap so loud and sets off so many alarm bells that I'd feel like I was being cruel in not pointing out how this almost has to be some sort of DM trap.

Naturally the OP knows his DM better than I do and can dismiss my advice if he's certain I'm wrong. If he says he's pretty sure it's not a trap, I'll drop it.

[Heliomance]

Off the wall theory: The DM's doing it just to see if the players dare to do anything with it, or if their OOC paranoia will stop them.

[Forrestfire]

That's not high power, it's unlimited power. Unlimited power isn't a game anymore. Even the gods can't create unlimited wish effects by RAW, at least not unless wish is on a domain list that I'm forgetting.

I wouldn't normally argue this hard when giving game advice for somebody else's table, but this just screams trap so loud and sets off so many alarm bells that I'd feel like I was being cruel in not pointing out how this almost has to be some sort of DM trap.

Naturally the OP knows his DM better than I do and can dismiss my advice if he's certain I'm wrong. If he says he's pretty sure it's not a trap, I'll drop it.

Sorry to nitpick, but it's fairly easy to get unlimited wish effects by RAW. Level 4 Dweomerkeeper can cast it supernaturally, which explicitly ignores all components. Anything with wish as a spell-like ability also gets infinitely powerful wishes, unless it is noted in the ability text that they have to pay component costs, such as with Archmage.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sorry to nitpick, but it's fairly easy to get unlimited wish effects by RAW. Level 4 Dweomerkeeper can cast it supernaturally, which explicitly ignores all components. Anything with wish as a spell-like ability also gets infinitely powerful wishes, unless it is noted in the ability text that they have to pay component costs, such as with Archmage.

Yeah, but those are things you have to work for, not things that are dropped in your lap. They're also all very high level and frequently nerfed or banned. Btw, I can't actually look at the pdf for the web enhancement, is dweomerkeepers SU spell class feature useable at will?

If the player had asked how to use the unlimited wishes he's managed to aquire for himself, since the DM didn't stop him, I wouldn't really think anything of it except what one of the early posts in this thread said; do whatever you want.

Getting unlimited wishes by RAW isn't trivial and can't be done before the game's already broken anyway. Even then the ability to wish away all your problems as a standard action effectively nullifies any element of gaming. However you get your unlimited wishes, it's game over.

[olentu]

That's not high power, it's unlimited power. Unlimited power isn't a game anymore. Even the gods can't create unlimited wish effects by RAW, at least not unless wish is on a domain list that I'm forgetting.

I wouldn't normally argue this hard when giving game advice for somebody else's table, but this just screams trap so loud and sets off so many alarm bells that I'd feel like I was being cruel in not pointing out how this almost has to be some sort of DM trap.

Naturally the OP knows his DM better than I do and can dismiss my advice if he's certain I'm wrong. If he says he's pretty sure it's not a trap, I'll drop it.

Alter Reality?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Alter Reality?

Has a recharge time on all but the replicate spell usage.

[rockdeworld]

Maybe it's just a high-powered campaign? Really?

Step 1: Become Pun-Pun.
Step 2: Stop playing D&D and start playing Monopoly.

Laying aside the idea of going Pun-Pun, let's lay out a portion of what infinite wishes can do.

1. Create NI wealth, 25000gp at a time.
2. Buy Bracers of Relentless Might (Epic Item, +12 to Str and Con), Staff of Necromancy, [Item]s of +12 [Stat], Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance, Ring of Universal Energy Immunity, Ring of Sequestering, +13 Twilight Mithral Shirt of Great Invulnerability (DR 10/Epic), and Twilight Mithral Bulwark of the Great Dragon, Tomes of +10 [Stat]
3. Surround yourself with Vorpal Dancing Keen Falchions.
4. Pay a wizard to cast Genesis to create a Flowing Time plane where every minute you spend there is 1 round on the Material Plane.
5. Stock up on Staffs of Planar Might for travel purposes, and Rods of Epic Rulership.
6. Start using the Rods of Rulership to bring everyone in the Prime Material Plane under your sway. Stop when there is no opposition.

You are effectively unkillable, with +34 to all stats, DR 10/Epic, SR 40, Immune to all energy types, Invisible, Un-scry-able, surrounded by swords that cut off the head of anyone who approaches you, and instant transportation to a fast-time plane.

And just for fun, buy a ton of Rods of the Gold Wyrm. Because there's nothing like having an army of 17th level spellcasters at your command.

Now you are the BBEG.

[Arcanist]

Can you wish for a spell as a Spell-Like Ability at will? :smallconfused:

If you can...

http://images.cryhavok.org/d/3485-2/Post-Apocalyptic+Cityscape.jpg

WELCOME TO THE END OF DAYS GAMES!!!

[olentu]

Has a recharge time on all but the replicate spell usage.

And, of course, wish is not actually a spell.

[Kelb_Panthera]

And, of course, wish is not actually a spell.

............ I didn't think of that for some reason.

That's a rather glaring oversight, isn't it. :smallannoyed:

On the bright side, that means that any deity with alter reality really is unbeatable. Congratualtions you've disproven "If it has stats you can kill it." Now it's "If it has stats you can kill it, except for deities that can alter reality."

[rockdeworld]

Getting unlimited wishes by RAW isn't trivial and can't be done before the game's already broken anyway. Even then the ability to wish away all your problems as a standard action effectively nullifies any element of gaming. However you get your unlimited wishes, it's game over.
Actually it is pretty trivial. 4x 2nd-level PCs have 2700gp WBL. By pooling that, they can buy a (Lawful Evil) Candle of Invocation. It uses a CL of 17, so can be used to Gate in an Efreeti and force it give you 3 wishes, which you can use to get 3 more Candles of Invocation.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually it is pretty trivial. 4x 2nd-level PCs have 2700gp WBL. By pooling that, they can buy a (Lawful Evil) Candle of Invocation. It uses a CL of 17, so can be used to Gate in an Efreeti and force it give you 3 wishes, which you can use to get 3 more Candles of Invocation.

It's been hashed and rehashed what the problems are with trying to get wishes out of other creatures, particularly the efreeti.

I won't go into it except to say that particular method is very, very high-risk/high-reward.

[rockdeworld]

It's been hashed and rehashed what the problems are with trying to get wishes out of other creatures, particularly the efreeti.

I won't go into it except to say that particular method is very, very high-risk/high-reward.

Gate
A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.
CL 17 = 17 rounds.
Round 1. Grant me 3 wishes. First Wish: A LE Candle of Invocation.
Round 2. Second Wish: A LE Candle of Invocation.
Round 3. Third Wish: A LE Candle of Invocation.
Round 4. Leave and don't bother me again.

Edit: That's all you need by RAW.

The only risk is angering your DM, which is fully justified.

[Kelb_Panthera]

CL 17 = 17 rounds.
Round 1. Grant me 3 wishes. First Wish: A LE Candle of Invocation.
Round 2. Second Wish: A LE Candle of Invocation.
Round 3. Third Wish: A LE Candle of Invocation.
Round 4. Leave and don't bother me again.

The only risk is angering your DM, which is fully justified.

That gets you unlimited candles of invocation. At some point you're going to have to actually ask for an actual wish. If the efreet demands you elaborate on you wish for more than 2 minutes you're outside of immediate task territory and into contractual service. Doing this would be perfectly in character for an efreet (and most other wish granting creatures for that matter, but especially efreeti) and can easily prevent you from getting any wishes at all.

For that matter he can stall by demanding you elaborate on what, exactly (in excrutiating detail) is a "candle of invocation," and prevent you from even getting that much. Heck, a language barrier can prevent you from even getting that far. How much does it suck that you keep getting efreeti that only know ignan when you forgot to spend the skill-points to learn it.

Nevermind the penchant for LE creatures to seek vengeance over the pettiest of things, like a blow to their dignity in being forced to grant a wish for a lowly mortal without compensation. Which command 4 does nothing to prevent since "don't bother me again" is an open command with an effectively unlimited time to complete.

Relying on other creatures to get wishes means relying on the DM not saying no, making it flat undoable at one end and a really, really bad idea at the other. You can decide for yourself which end of that spectrum is actually worse.

[Augmental]

That gets you unlimited candles of invocation. At some point you're going to have to actually ask for an actual wish. If the efreet demands you elaborate on you wish for more than 2 minutes you're outside of immediate task territory and into contractual service. Doing this would be perfectly in character for an efreet (and most other wish granting creatures for that matter, but especially efreeti) and can easily prevent you from getting any wishes at all.

For that matter he can stall by demanding you elaborate on what, exactly (in excrutiating detail) is a "candle of invocation," and prevent you from even getting that much.

This assumes that the efreet knows that if he stalls out, the people who gated him have to pay him for his service. And that it's an in-game construct that's at least semi-common knowledge.


Heck, a language barrier can prevent you from even getting that far. How much does it suck that you keep getting efreeti that only know ignan when you forgot to spend the skill-points to learn it.

According to the SRD:


Efreet speak Auran, Common, Ignan, and Infernal.


Nevermind the penchant for LE creatures to seek vengeance over the pettiest of things, like a blow to their dignity in being forced to grant a wish for a lowly mortal without compensation. Which command 4 does nothing to prevent since "don't bother me again" is an open command with an effectively unlimited time to complete.

"Now leave, and never do anything that would be directly harmful to me or anything, anyone, or anywhatever that would be indirectly harmful to me."

[rockdeworld]

Those are all DM fiat, and not RAW. Hence my saying "The only risk is making the DM angry."

And as an aside, no you don't have to ask for anything other than a Candle of Invocation. By wishing for a Good-aligned CoI, you can gate in a Solar, who can start popping out Miracles for you.

And as another aside, the original point was that it's trivial to get infinite wishes, which I think I've proved.

[Amnestic]

"Now leave, and never do anything that would be directly harmful to me or anything, anyone, or anywhatever that would be indirectly harmful to me."

Efreeti aren't alone. They might take such a command as an insult against their kind. Such Efreeti wouldn't be bound by such a command.

As an added bonus, crushing you utterly would then send a rather clear message to anyone else who would try that sort of thing.

[Kornaki]

If the efreet doesn't know he's owed payment for staying longer, then at what point does that negotiation of payment come up?


"Now leave, and never do anything that would be directly harmful to me or anything, anyone, or anywhatever that would be indirectly harmful to me."

He agrees, and demands his 10000 gp payment for committing to a task that takes more than 17 days to complete

[Kelb_Panthera]

This assumes that the efreet knows that if he stalls out, the people who gated him have to pay him for his service. And that it's an in-game construct that's at least semi-common knowledge.



According to the SRD:





"Now leave, and never do anything that would be directly harmful to me or anything, anyone, or anywhatever that would be indirectly harmful to me."

It won't take long in a world where this is often done for even a short time for the efreeti to figure it out. Hell, rumor alone can take care of it; one or another god of magic lets his wish-capable underlings know about that limitation of the spell, then it circles the great wheel just like any other rumor. After that, trial and error gets the exact limits down in no time at all. Meta-construct or not, assuming that it's common knowledge isn't a stretch at all.

As for your last command, it's actually two commands, specifically "Leave" and "don't come back" The former's not a problem but the latter is still open ended and therefore constitutes a contractual service; one that you didn't offer anything in return for which therefore can and almost certainly will be ignored. Nevermind that even if a particularly dense efreet thinks he can't return personally, he can set you up for a fall with his associates. Manipulating allies and enemies into doing your dirty work is part and parcel to being a lawful evil creature.

If you're going to get wishes out of creatures you're going to either be disappointed, obligated to earn them, or sorry you got them.

[Augmental]

As for your last command, it's actually two commands, specifically "Leave" and "don't come back" The former's not a problem but the latter is still open ended and therefore constitutes a contractual service; one that you didn't offer anything in return for which therefore can and almost certainly will be ignored. Nevermind that even if a particularly dense efreet thinks he can't return personally, he can set you up for a fall with his associates. Manipulating allies and enemies into doing your dirty work is part and parcel to being a lawful evil creature.

"Now leave, and never do anything that would be directly harmful to me or anything, anyone, or anywhatever that would be indirectly harmful to me."

That's not exactly easy to manipulate. Setting you up for a fall with his associates would definitely fall under the "indirect harm" part.

[Kelb_Panthera]

"Now leave, and never do anything that would be directly harmful to me or anything, anyone, or anywhatever that would be indirectly harmful to me."

That's not exactly easy to manipulate. Setting you up for a fall with his associates would definitely fall under the "indirect harm" part.

Doesn't matter. He's not actually bound by the spell, he just thinks he is. Desire and logic often run at cross purposes. Unfortunately for you, as desire pushes him to go more and more against the spirit of the command, he'll become more and more likely to realize he doesn't have to obey that part at all.

Also, setting his enemies against you could be him setting them up for the fall in his mind. He figures you've got a few nifty items now and you'll use them to destroy his enemies without being harmed. He's obeyed the letter of the command, at least to his mind, while ignoring its spirit. Actually destroying those enemies will work in his favor, failing to do so and having to flee may tip him off to the fact something's up. It's win/win for him.

Nevermind the fact that there is no clear line for what cause indirect harm. I've been arguing for causing direct harm in an indirect fashion. There's just as much room for interpretation for directly causing indirect harm. Slaughtering your friends and loved ones for instance doesn't actually cost you any hit-points. Simply phrasing that last command to cover all possible circumstances would require a contract lawyer and significantly more than 2 minutes to actually say.

The simple fact of the matter is that this very discussion proves my point. It's not a clear-cut case of foolproof RAW. I'm not even trotting out rule zero and you're in danger. Using other creatures to get wishes is inherently problematic.

[willpell]

Round 4. Leave and don't bother me again.

Wouldn't that be a fourth wish which you aren't entitled to?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Wouldn't that be a fourth wish which you aren't entitled to?

just a command given to a conjured creature.

[willpell]

Well, assuming the wish staff turns out not to be a complete trap (though I agree it almost certainly is), here are a few ideas for gonzo wishes that don't break the game but do make you feel like you've had godlike power to screw around with for laughs.

1. Turn the sky green worldwide for 11 seconds, just because.

2. Inscribe a cryptic message into the side of a mountain nobody is using, then glance forward a few thousand years in time to see what future society makes of the impossible message in a long-dead language.

3. Wish for an accurate answer to the Zen Koan that a level 20 monk asked you during your first adventure (think "tree falls in the forest, no one around" kind of thing, or a D&D variant of Schrodinger's Cat).

4. Speaking of which, wish for a pet cat. Name him Ceiling Cat, and whenever you stay in an inn, let him into the rafters and have him watch other tenants and attempt to make them nervous.

5. Wish for there to be clocks, calendars, compasses, and similar modern conveniences in every town and dungeon throughout the land, so that you never have to roleplay medieval ignorance of such trivialities again.

If you keep your wishes whimsical and harmless like this, and don't get on the DM's nerves by doing them every five minutes for the rest of the campaign, he might forgo having the whole thing come crashing down on your head, as he almost certainly will if you wish for triple-digit inherent bonuses and an army of demon slaves.

[Zubrowka74]

Let me know what finally happens, I'm curious.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Upon rereading the op, it seems he was allowed some of the safe-list wishes. I'm still more than a little dubious about the whole thing, but my cries of "IT'S A TRAP!!" may have been a bit over the top.

That or the trap has sprung and noone will ever hear from that poor lost soul again.

I'm kinda hoping for the latter so I won't have to say I was wrong. I don't mind being wrong most times, but it'd be a bit galling in this particular instance.

[WarKitty]

Random thought: Why does everyone assume the sole purpose of the Wish is to gain power/glory for the party? I could see this actually being interesting with a good-aligned party - try and fix the world without breaking anything.

[Gavinfoxx]

Random thought: Why does everyone assume the sole purpose of the Wish is to gain power/glory for the party? I could see this actually being interesting with a good-aligned party - try and fix the world without breaking anything.

Did you READ my post scarcity society writeup? ;)

[Arcanist]

Random thought: Why does everyone assume the sole purpose of the Wish is to gain power/glory for the party? I could see this actually being interesting with a good-aligned party - try and fix the world without breaking anything.

The problem with infinite free wishes is that it "cures" scarcity, allowing entire civilizations to overcome a problem that slows down population control, economic problems, military issues, etc.

You'd have poor people wishing for more money, homeless people wishing for castles, effectively. Nobody has to work for anything because everything is always provided to them.

Not everyone can be a King. Sometimes we need a farmer :smallamused:

[blazinghand]

The problem with infinite free wishes is that it "cures" scarcity, allowing entire civilizations to overcome a problem that slows down population control, economic problems, military issues, etc.

You'd have poor people wishing for more money, homeless people wishing for castles, effectively. Nobody has to work for anything because everything is always provided to them.

Not everyone can be a King. Sometimes we need a farmer :smallamused:

Would people really wish for more money and the like though? I kind of imagine this would become like the Star Trek universe where they live in a post-scarcity society and most people not in the military are like artists or scientists or writers or whatever and just hang out. They have their replicators make food and wine and luxury cars, and yeah they don't have peasants but who cares? Everyone can live a life of leisure. The only people who deal with scarcity are the military who have to operate out in deep space but even they have replicators.

[Chess435]

World's largest sandwich, King Mayor of the World, Everything back to normal.

...

And, uh, repeat the cycle. As many times as it takes.

Fixed. :smallamused:

[Arcanist]

Would people really wish for more money and the like though? I kind of imagine this would become like the Star Trek universe where they live in a post-scarcity society and most people not in the military are like artists or scientists or writers or whatever and just hang out. They have their replicators make food and wine and luxury cars, and yeah they don't have peasants but who cares? Everyone can live a life of leisure. The only people who deal with scarcity are the military who have to operate out in deep space but even they have replicators.

It's a very underexpected thing. The difference between a D&D wish spell and a Star Trek replicator is that with a Wish spell you don't even need the object in front of you or a base of the object. You just say it and it's right in front of you. making deep space expeditions (like in Star Trek) MUCH easier. Imagine of Q just decided to follow them around everywhere and solve all their problems.

The terrible thing is that, as proven on this board, we do not have a underexpected society. If you were to provide each of us an Eternal Scepter of Wish, we sure as hell wouldn't wish for anything benevolent... :smallannoyed: People are greedy (or "Self-interested"). It's a fact of life.

[Gavinfoxx]

It's a very underexpected thing. The difference between a D&D wish spell and a Star Trek replicator is that with a Wish spell you don't even need the object in front of you or a base of the object. You just say it and it's right in front of you.

The terrible thing is that, as proven on this board, we do not have an underexpected society. If you were to provide each of us an Eternal Scepter of Wish, we sure as hell wouldn't wish for anything benevolent... :smallannoyed: People are greedy (or "Self-interested"). It's a fact of life.

Which is why you use wish spells to create the non-wish-based things that cure scarcity, duh. Read my handbook!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aG4P3dU6WP3pq8mW9l1qztFeNfqQHyI22oJe09i8KWw/edit

[Amnestic]

Would people really wish for more money and the like though? I kind of imagine this would become like the Star Trek universe where they live in a post-scarcity society and most people not in the military are like artists or scientists or writers or whatever and just hang out. They have their replicators make food and wine and luxury cars, and yeah they don't have peasants but who cares? Everyone can live a life of leisure. The only people who deal with scarcity are the military who have to operate out in deep space but even they have replicators.

Would society adjust or crash and burn? Sure, some guys will just be like "I want food/shelter". But a good portion of people want to rule the world - or at least their fellow man.

I always viewed the Star Trek 'ideal society' as something humanity would have to progress towards at their own pace. If you get it all of a sudden, if they're given it instead of earning it, then people won't be adjusted to the idea and ruin follows soon after.

[Arcanist]

Which is why you use wish spells to create the non-wish-based things that cure scarcity, duh. Read my handbook!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aG4P3dU6WP3pq8mW9l1qztFeNfqQHyI22oJe09i8KWw/edit

The point I'm trying to push is that when truly exploiting spells in D&D to their fullest potential your entire society falls apart. You didn't have to even write a handbook for that. You just had to take a look at True Creation, Create food and Water, Prestidigitation, etc. Hell, if you really want to manage space properly all it really takes is to start selling Spelltraps of Genesis so that people can just make their own Demiplanes and set up portals to those Demiplanes and boom, you have infinitely adjustable homes that consume little to no space on the home plane.

This is taking a 100 mile step into the Tippyverse. The terrible thing is that you don't even need Wish to completely devastate an economy. Level 2 spells do that all by themselves :smallannoyed:


Would society adjust or crash and burn? Sure, some guys will just be like "I want food/shelter". But a good portion of people want to rule the world - or at least their fellow man.

I always viewed the Star Trek 'ideal society' as something humanity would have to progress towards at their own pace. If you get it all of a sudden, if they're given it instead of earning it, then people won't be adjusted to the idea and ruin follows soon after.

If you really want to see the cost of rapid elevation look at the Krogan from Mass Effect. The Salerians elevated them. They gained advanced technology. They weren't ready for it. They destroyed their home planet.

Honestly, my stance on technological elevation is that the society under the scope should try and develop a method of communicating and achieving FTL travel before they're allowed to integrate with spacefaring societies. Effectively. To speak with a Spacefaring society, you must become a Spacefaring society.

[Kazyan]

If you get it all of a sudden, if they're given it instead of earning it, then people won't be adjusted to the idea and ruin follows soon after.

"Earn" is a quaint paradigm in a post-scarcity society.

[WarKitty]

See this is the whole reason it would be interesting to have a good party in control of endless wishes. You want to end all the bad things without causing more bad things to crop up.

Given that not everyone has access to infinite wishes, it wouldn't necessarily go to a complete post-scarcity society. Sure you want magicked up food and clothing, but you're still going to have to work for that fine silk dress and caviar. You're setting up a benevolent dictator situation with the PC's as the dictators...and see how they manage all the crises that follow.

[Corundum Dragon]

It could be a cursed item that dose nothing at all except make the user think it does.

[Kelb_Panthera]

"Earn" is a quaint paradigm in a post-scarcity society.

Not necessarily. The idea of "earning" food, shelter, etc would be an out-dated idea, but the idea of earning the respect of your peers, authority over underlings, a higher understanding of the universe and your place in it, etc would hold up just fine. If anything the idea of earning those things would become much more poignant for the lack of needing to earn survival.

As long as you're talking about human beings, society will always stratify and somebody's always going to be on the bottom, even if who's at the top, or even just where the top is, is unclear; and earning your way to the top, wherever and whatever it is, or just earning your way away from the bottom, will always be a priority.

[TuggyNE]

It could be a cursed item that dose nothing at all except make the user think it does.

That's probably the best possible outcome suggested so far!

[OrlockDelesian]

I Strongly agree with Kelb_Panthera

IT IS A TRAP.
No DM EVER would give that.

If I was running the game, it would be a plot of a god of greed. For each greedy use you would get an X point. When the X points reached Y, you and anyone who ever greedily benefited from your wishes, like your party would be his/hers forever, not to mention he would take everything back.

However there is one harmeless wish I would use.

Dramatic Music.

When you say something important, do something flashy, or enter a room eith a confidence, everyone hears music, like if you were the protagonist in a movie. :P

But seriusly, destroy it, or go to the most powerfull temple of a Good God (not necessary lawful) you can find and ask about it "hypotheticaly"

[willpell]

I still think it's possible, though very unlikely, that this is not a trap and the DM just wants to see how you handle it. It might just be an "off the chain" opportunity that will be "undone" by time travel, leaving no in-game consequences but some fun memories of a "Groundhog Day" experience that you can look back on and laugh. Or maybe it's actually an attempt to pull off that post-scarcity society; it can be done in an interesting way, as the Culture novels prove. It's definitely easy to have something go wrong, but it might be possible to delay it for a long time. And at worst the GM can always say "Welp, that was fun; time for a new campaign".

[Telonius]

Infinite wishes, you say?

Start granting them to people you meet.

Price: the person receiving the Wish must accept you as its deity.

[Kane0]

Wish to be The Nameless One, then wish to fix the problems with becoming immortal (in his case) one by one.

On an unrelated note, I wonder if that would piss off the Lady...
Doesn't matter, wish your way out of that too :P