Yuan-Ti = Drow?

[silverwolfer]

So this is a quick throw down between the two races, with a few things stroke out for a better comparison .

Do you think Yaun-ti is edging strong along the +LA 2 power cap, or falls into +3 LA when all is aid and done?




Drow Traits (Ex): Drow possess the following racial traits.
+2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma.
Medium size.
A drow’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Immunity to sleep spells and effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. (Not reflected in the saving throw modifiers given here.)
Darkvision out to 120 feet.
Spell-Like Abilities: Drow can use the following spell-like abilities once per day: dancing lights, darkness, faerie fire. Caster level equals the drow’s class levels.
Weapon Proficiency: A drow is automatically proficient with the hand crossbow, the rapier, and the short sword.
Spell resistance equal to 11 + class levels.
+2 racial bonus on Will saves against spells and spell-like abilities.
+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. A drow who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.
Automatic Languages: Common, Elven, Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Draconic, Drow Sign Language, Gnome, Goblin.
Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area.
Favored Class: Wizard (male) or cleric (female).
Level adjustment +2.



Yuan-Ti Purebloods as Characters
Yuan-ti pureblood characters possess the following racial traits.
— +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma.
—Medium size.
—A yuan-ti pureblood’s base land speed is 30 feet.
—Darkvision out to 60 feet.
—Racial Hit Dice: A yuan-ti pureblood begins with four levels
of monstrous humanoid, which provide 4d8 Hit Dice, a base attack
bonus of +4, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +4,
and Will +4.
—Racial Skills: A yuan-ti pureblood’s monstrous humanoid
levels give it skill points equal to 7 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class
skills are Concentration, Disguise, Hide, Knowledge (any), Listen
and Spot.
—Racial Feats: A yuan-ti pureblood’s monstrous humanoid
levels give it two feats. Yuan-ti purebloods receive Alertness and
Blind-Fight as bonus feats.
— +1 natural armor bonus.
—Special Attacks (see above): Spell-Like Abilities:
1/day—animal trance (DC
13), cause fear (DC 12),
charm person (DC 12),
darkness, entangle (DC 12).
Caster level 4th. The save
DCs are Charisma-based.
—Special Qualities (see above): Alternate form, detect poison, spell
resistance equal to class levels + 14.
—Automatic Languages: Yuan-ti, Common. Bonus Languages:
Abyssal, Draconic.
—Favored Class: Ranger.
—Level adjustment +2.

[Golden Ladybug]

I wouldn't cast either of them as even LA+2 Races :smallmad:

Compare the Drow to the Goliath, generally considered a good pick for a LA+1 races. They both come out with the same net +4 Stat Mod, both have one rather powerful racial trait (the Goliath's Powerful Build, the Drow's Spell Resistance) and a bunch of skill mods. Drow get Elf Traits and some weak SLAs, and Goliath's get the Monstrous Humanoid type and are always counted as running when they jump.

Yuan-ti get a net +6 Stat Mod, a bunch of meh-to-good SLAs and an Alternate Form (of which I don't know the details of, off-hand). They are, however, shackled with 4 Racial Hit Die (good RHD, but RHD nonetheless), which balances all those benefits out by far. I'd say that its reasonable for them to have LA+0

[silverwolfer]

Well going to say , Hello to you Ladybug , first time have seen you around here, and you are right, but both are creations at the start of 3E, so the power creep and understanding of what works and doesn't you don't see until around player handbook two and later books.


Once you toss the HD+skills out the window, I think you get left with even by old measurments a La 2 race

[Golden Ladybug]

True, but I like to complain about it; makes me feel important to whine about things on the internet :smallbiggrin:

And yes, in that case, I would agree with you; by the...not particularly well thought out measurements for level adjustment of early 3e, the Drow and the Yuan-ti -HD/SR would be close to even.

Also, nice to meet you too. I have odd posting habits (by which I mean I lurk for months, post a whole bunch, and then go back to lurking)

[silverwolfer]

Yeah i got my Dm to agree to it , had to lose the HD/Skills, and also the alternate form ability ((not sure why, not like that is able to be powergammed lol)) for a +2 LA

[CTrees]

and also the alternate form ability ((not sure why, not like that is able to be powergammed lol))

I double checked. It's tiny to large snakes only. Which... is kinda flavorful, and I don't doubt there's some absurd form this allows in some book or another, but I'm pretty sure this doesn't allow entry into Warshaper, so... aside from some absurdly situational uses and roleplaying, I don't see the danger (especially at mid to high levels).

[Devmaar]

As the DM in question, I am willing to rethink my position on this if there's a consensus that I should

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I'd say their both kind of weak +2's. Personally I don't like comparing races to each other I prefer comparing members of a race to human and other phb races with 1-3 more levels of the base classes most likely to be played with them and both these races look like they'd come up short vs. a human of any similarly built phb class 2 levels higher assuming they were the same class and built similarly. Both these races have some of the worst abilities for a PC to (buy) with their level adjustment.

Low Level Spell-likes-Potentially game breaking at low levels, worthless at high levels. Even with the rare ability that has the potential for utility use at high levels a wand will eventually be a trivial expenditure.

Spell Resistence- As a player and a DM, I don't care for SR. It's overpriced for players and underpriced for many monsters also it's a mechanic that can be easily countered in two ways, pumping CL and only using offensive spells with SR:No. If you play the game without considering either of these options your casters are going to get destroyed by high SR enemies and lots of campaigns end up with thematic enemies that all have high SR forcing you to either adapt or be destroyed.

Alternate Form- At ECL 3, Large Viper won't even be a very strong combat form; 5ft reach, single atack, low DC poison, poor AC and this isn't even taking into account that you'll be crap in any form with your single HD and +0-1 BAB. Tiny Viper will give you a decent stealth bonus giving you an edge over other stealthy characters that aren't using reduce person and at this level but not much. Under 3.5 rules reduced size only gives a bonus to hide so comparing a pure blood rogue in tiny viper form to a halfling rogue.

Yuanti
Hide 4 ranks +8 size(+4 of halfling) Dex (doesn't matter halfling has the same modifier and stat priority)
Move Silently 4 ranks Dex (same)

Halfling
Hide 6 ranks (+2 over Pure Blood) Dex (same)
Move Silently 6 ranks (+2 over pure blood) Dex (same) +2 racial bonus

So, a pure blood in viper form is marginally better than a halfling at hiding in place and is about equal as a scout and becomes clearly inferior if we include all the options the halfing has due to his humanoid form like using mundane items and having reduce person cast on them.

This isn't to say that the tiny viper has no value, if we were comparing two characters that weren't built for stealth the pureblood would be better able to cover that role in a party without a more specialized scout. However, these static bonuses will only be strong at very low levels and will require a significant investment to continue to be competent at the role at higher levels.

[ThiagoMartell]

What makes their LA high is spell resistance. It's a game changer, specially before Assay Spell Resistance becomes available. Even then, you're forcing them to burn a slot and an action.
I actually think their LA is quite justified. Pathfinder reduced the spell resistance to make it more acceptable (and all races at PF would be around +1 LA in 3.x anyway).
As I said in another thread recently, yuan-ti can probably make pretty good characters even without dropping the racial hit dice.

[TheShribe]

If Yuan-ti used to be human, couldn't there be a different type of snake people who used to be drow or something?

[AvatarVecna]

If Yuan-ti used to be human, couldn't there be a different type of snake people who used to be drow or something?

While certainly an interesting question, given the thread topic, it might be better to start a new thread referencing this thread, rather than committing thread necromancy.

EDIT: As more of an actual answer to your question, my basic understanding of Yaun-Ti is that "they were human" in the sense that they "evolved" from humans, rather than through a magic ritual...although I'll admit, it's possible such a ritual was involved. If so, said ritual is likely detailed somewhere, and would state who could be affected by it (just human, any humanoid, any creature, etc).

[Extra Anchovies]

ETA: Crikey, forgot to check the post dates. Whoops.

The best thing playing a Yuan-Ti provides is actually the Monstrous Humanoid typing, because it provides immunity to charm/hold/dominate person and opens up some really nice Alter Self options. There are also LA +0 outsiders, though, so Monstrous Humanoid isn't worth +1 LA.

Spell resistance is usually pretty bad on a player character, for a few different reasons:
1. If you don't lower it when allies target you with spells, their buffs/heals/etc might be wasted.
2. Lowering it takes a standard action, doubling the action cost of buffing you (one of the caster's standard actions, plus one of yours).
3. Spell resistance remains active while you're unconscious, so your SR can actually kill you by blocking allied healing spells.
4. When you lower your spell resistance it remains lowered until the start of your next turn, leaving you vulnerable to enemy spells.
5. Keeping your spell resistance lowered requires a standard action every round, so none of the above can be avoided by keeping your spell resistance deactivated.

So it's actually good that you're losing the SR.

Animal Trace isn't useful as much more than a parlor trick. Most things worth casting it on have enough HD that they'll probably just be immune. Cause fear is decent at levels 1-3, but gets useless very fast. Charm Person is genuinely good, and stays moderately useful even at higher levels. The lack of verbal or somatic components helps, because if the target makes their save they won't know what you were trying to do. Darkness is fairly useful, but certainly not worth losing a class level over. A Warlock dip can get Darkness at will, plus BAB/HD/saves/etc. Entangle is a low-level BFC staple, and stays useful until people start flying. All together the SLAs are kinda meh - WotC would give LA just for these, but that's because WotC doesn't know how to assign accurate LA values.

Alternate Form is vaguely useful. Tibbits (LA +0) have a Tiny form that's more capable of manipulating objects (having limbs tends to help with that), but vipers have climb and swim speeds so they're about equal. The Large form is a very unimpressive CR 2, so it's useless for anything except frightening commoners. Medium and Small vipers are not as sneaky as Tiny vipers and not as threatening as Large vipers.

All of the other features (ability adjustments, darkvision, natural armor, etc) are pretty much in line with what can be gotten for LA +0. Adding on the SLAs, alternate form, and monstrous humanoid typing, I'd put the Yuan-Ti at LA +1, because what the race offers would be worth trading away one class level in some builds, but losing two levels for all of the above wouldn't be worth it unless you were building for something that absolutely required you to be Yuan-Ti, like Coiled Cabalist (Serpent Kingdoms).