[3.5] Manufacturing infinite XP?

[Jack_Simth]

Hey all,

Random thought popped into my head when looking at other things for a rather crazy-powered game:

We can make XP in isolation!

You need:
1) A Bard, level 9 or better that is not deliberately gimped beyond being a bard (for Inspire Greatness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm#inspireGreatness))
2) A Psion with Astral Seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralSeed.htm)
3) A rather lot of uninterrupted time.

How it works:
1) The bard Inspires Greatness in the Psion, giving him two hit dice, and maintains the Bardic Music.
2) While under the effects of Inspire Greatness, the Psion manifests Astral Seed.
3) The Psion grows despondant, and kills himself.
4) The Psion wakes up in his psicrystal, and builds himself a new body.
5) The Psion's negative level becomes real level loss, putting him halfway between levels... but based on when he was Inspired! He is actually a level above where he was when he started (but it's a blank level). But there's a clause in real level loss (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#levelLoss): " The victim’s experience point total is immediately set to the midpoint of the previous level." - this is useful to us, because it means the 15th level Shaper who started this is, thanks to shenanigans, now halfway between 16th and 17th (although that level 16 was a bad choice... it's blank), with the associated 8,000 xp to burn.

Add in a thought bottle (catch your XP total at this point, then lose the other blank level) and you can level up without combat, or craft to your heart's content...

...provided nothing interrupts.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hey all,

Random thought popped into my head when looking at other things for a rather crazy-powered game:

We can make XP in isolation!

You need:
1) A Bard, level 9 or better that is not deliberately gimped beyond being a bard (for Inspire Greatness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm#inspireGreatness))
2) A Psion with Astral Seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralSeed.htm)
3) A rather lot of uninterrupted time.

How it works:
1) The bard Inspires Greatness in the Psion, giving him two hit dice, and maintains the Bardic Music.
2) While under the effects of Inspire Greatness, the Psion manifests Astral Seed.
3) The Psion grows despondant, and kills himself.
4) The Psion wakes up in his psicrystal, and builds himself a new body.
5) The Psion's negative level becomes real level loss, putting him halfway between levels... but based on when he was Inspired! He is actually a level above where he was when he started (but it's a blank level). But there's a clause in real level loss (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#levelLoss): " The victim’s experience point total is immediately set to the midpoint of the previous level." - this is useful to us, because it means the 15th level Shaper who started this is, thanks to shenanigans, now halfway between 16th and 17th (although that level 16 was a bad choice... it's blank), with the associated 8,000 xp to burn.

Add in a thought bottle (catch your XP total at this point, then lose the other blank level) and you can level up without combat, or craft to your heart's content...

...provided nothing interrupts.

This belongs in the 3.5 subforum, but otherwise nice catch. I haven't heard of this particular trick before.

Edit: Removed a terrible, terrible joke that I should never have made in the first place.

Once again, nice catch Jack_Smith.

[Sith_Happens]

Edit: Removed a terrible, terrible joke that I should never have made in the first place.

That's just unfair.:smalltongue:

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's just unfair.:smalltongue:

It was a pun that was based on the OP's user name and a form of self gratification. Not only was it tasteless, it skirted closer to the forum rules than I'm willing to get for a joke. If you really want to know, ask me via PM. Even via PM it's still a bad idea. Forget I ever said anything other than good job Jack_Smith.

[Sith_Happens]

It was a pun that was based on the OP's user name and a form of self gratification. Not only was it tasteless, it skirted closer to the forum rules than I'm willing to get for a joke. If you really want to know, ask me via PM.

Nah, I'm good.

[Jack_Simth]

This belongs in the 3.5 subforum,
Yeah, I reported myself almost immediately after I posted, when I realized that original posts don't include a "delete" option during editing. The moderators were kind enough to move it for me.

but otherwise nice catch. I haven't heard of this particular trick before.
Neither have I. Seppuku as a method for gaining levels. Crazyness! You'd have to be insane to think of something like that!

... oh, wait...

... no, actually, I think the statement pretty much stands.

Once again, nice catch Jack_Smith.Glad to help. Silly TO tricks...

[Coidzor]

I'm going to have to share this with my friends for a laugh. :smallamused:

I don't think I've ever run into it before, so either it's so old it's been forgotten or you've done very well. :smallconfused::smallbiggrin:

[Lateral]

Nice. 'Course, you can do the same thing by failing saves to lose levels from negative levels (which sets your XP to halfway between the previous level and your current level), spending the remaining XP, and using Restoration to bring you back up, with none of that high-level Psion nonsense.

[Jack_Simth]

Nice. 'Course, you can do the same thing by failing saves to lose levels from negative levels (which sets your XP to halfway between the previous level and your current level), spending the remaining XP, and using Restoration to bring you back up, with none of that high-level Psion nonsense.
Ah, but that trick only lets you craft stuff for free.

This one actually lets you level up (go up two levels, go down one to make it permanent; stuff your current XP total into a Thought Bottle, lose the other dead level, get your XP total back out of the thought bottle, and put the level-and-a-half into something useful).

[Kelb_Panthera]

If Jack here got all of the RAW right, he's actuall come up with a way to level faster by killing yourself than you ever could by killing anything else.

It's a seriously nasty loop-hole in the system. It's actually one of the few things I've ever seen that's not nerf salvageable and needs to be outright banned.

[Tvtyrant]

But with the wording of Astral Seed you only get the abilities you had before you died; you cannot simply rearrange them as you want. So you have an empty HD that makes leveling harder.

Preemptive Edit: Psychic Reformation. Nevermind, it looks pretty cut and dry.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Has it occured to anyone else that giving the bard words of creation will allow this psion (or UPD user) to generate 3.5 levels worth of xp at a time instead of just 1.5?

[Cranthis]

Has anyone thought to just use Conjure (x) and then kill it?

[Noctis Vigil]

How about Bard tie up the Psion to make him helpless first, then stop singing and kill him via coup de grace in the 5 rounds of time before the extra levels wear off, thus getting the 9th level Bard the 21000 of EXP for killing a 15th level character as well as getting the Psion 1.5+ levels of EXP? Is a sketchy use of the system, but technically allowed.

[DigoDragon]

Its a nice trick, but I think most experienced Dungeon Masters are going to bring down the hammer on that. I know I would. :smallsmile:

[Jack_Simth]

If Jack here got all of the RAW right, he's actuall come up with a way to level faster by killing yourself than you ever could by killing anything else.
Nah. The "standard" four encounters-per-day, 13 encounters-per-level, for an equipped party levels you up three times in the ten days this takes - which ties with Kelb_Panthera's refinement.

Its a nice trick, but I think most experienced Dungeon Masters are going to bring down the hammer on that. I know I would. :smallsmile:
Well, yeah. I called Shenanigans in the OP.

[Cruiser1]

It's a seriously nasty loop-hole in the system. It's actually one of the few things I've ever seen that's not nerf salvageable and needs to be outright banned.
The way to handle this in an actual game is to rule that there's a distinction between buffed and unbuffed HD. In other words, Astral Seed should only consider your unbuffed HD. Another option is to rule that bonus HD are linked to or otherwise "remember" that they came from a temporary buff, so when you emerge from Astral Seed, your extra HD go away unless a Bard is still there singing Inspire Greatness for you (instead of those extra HD magically becoming permanent).

A similar concept is a way to help balance the Dark Chaos feat shuffle. Normally you can get infinite feats by having your familiar approach you, after which you DCFS the granted Alertness feat into a permanent bonus feat, then repeat the process. Instead, have the new bonus feat "remember" that it's built on top of Alertness, and go away when your familiar leaves your side. That's more RAI than RAW, but then so is house ruling that drowning merely drops your hp to 0, as opposed to sets your hp to 0 even if your current hp are below 0. :smallyuk: