Nerveskitter: Spell, Wand, or Eternal Wand?

[Acanous]

Nerveskitter's a great spell. It's better than (And stacks with) Improved Initiative. So really, if you're being any kind of caster, or even someone with a decent UMD score, you're probably going to be picking it up.
So the question is, which is the best option for employing this zany +5 insight bonus?
If you memorize it or have it on your spells known list, you've got it a few times a day, but have to either skimp out on other spells memorized, or run the risk of not having it when you need it. A Sorceror actually gets the better deal here- taking it as a staple 1st level spell is rarely going to cause him to burn through reserves, and there's not many 1st level spells sorcerors "Must have".

As a Wand, you get 50 charges. 750 GP and you're good for the next four levels' worth of play. (By the 12.5 encounters/level standard, anyhow.) That's cheap and rather effective. Using a Wand is only a DC 20 UMD, opening up the option to rogues, bards, and certain other classes. Given that "Drawing a weapon" can be done as part of a move action so long as your Base Attack is +1 or higher, you can walk around with the wand held and tied to your wrist by a length of cord, cast the spell, drop the wand, and draw a weapon as you move during the first round of combat.

But, wands eventually run out. Eternal wands, for 820 GP, don't. The only downside is you get it 2/day instead of as needed. You can still use it as above, but if you get into the standard 3 encounters a day, that's one where you're not enjoying your initiative bonus.

So, of the three, which would you take?

[Rejakor]

I'd buy a regular wand. Some days I wouldn't use an eternal wand at all, and some days i'd want to use it like 20 times.

It's better to have the bonuses you need, when you need them, than to be dead.

Also, i've never once burnt through all the charges on a wand in a campaign.

[Blue Lantern]

Can wand even be used as an immediati action? Didn't the rules says that activating a wand is usually a standard action unless the spell has a longer casting times.

In case it works though I agree a wand is better than an eternal one.

[Allanimal]

Can wand even be used as an immediati action? Didn't the rules says that activating a wand is usually a standard action unless the spell has a longer casting times.


The rules compendium says:

Activating a spell trigger item takes the same amount of time as the casting time of the spell that the item stores

Of course, the SRD says:

Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action.

In the case of disagreement, I believe the rules compendium should win. But I suppose it is up to the DM.

[TuggyNE]

In the case of disagreement, I believe the rules compendium should win. But I suppose it is up to the DM.

I believe the deal was the Rules Compendium was essentially delivering errata, but not in errata form; it's reasonable enough to accept it, even though it would have been better for them to, y'know, issue the correction properly.

To the OP I suggest perhaps simply using a pair of eternal wands, switching as needed.

[golem1972]

My last wizard used a pair of eternal wands of nerveskitter. In a pair of wand chambered clawed bracers. I then enchanted the bracers to be +1 eager / +1 warning.

+12 inititative before dex, improved initiative, and elf subbed hummingbird familiar.

I believe it was +30 to init by level 8.

[ahenobarbi]

My last wizard used a pair of eternal wands of nerveskitter. In a pair of wand chambered clawed bracers. I then enchanted the bracers to be +1 eager / +1 warning.

+12 inititative before dex, improved initiative, and elf subbed hummingbird familiar.

I believe it was +30 to init by level 8.

How would he get 2 immediate actions to activate the wands before acting? Or did you use another Nerveskitter on a teammate?

[FMArthur]

How would he get 2 immediate actions to activate the wands before acting? Or did you use another Nerveskitter on a teammate?

It'd just be for 4 uses a day, probably.

Also I may be AFB right now, but I'm pretty sure that the Elf substitution level can't actually improve the hummingbird initiative bonus.

[Palanan]

Looking at the Natural Link feature (Races of the Wild, p. 157), it says, "The bonus on skill checks, saves, or hit points granted by the familiar doubles."

I guess the question is whether an Initiative check is technically a skill check or a save...and I assume this is, as they say, debatable.

That said, I've used it the same way myself. Gotta love those hummingbirds.

:smalltongue:

[StreamOfTheSky]

If you're using Rules Compendium, there's not much point to casting it vs. a wand. Not an eternal wand, though.

If you're not using RC, casting it is the only real option. And pearls of power / memento magica do exist. So it's not like you can't cast other 1st level spells. Just prep it once and use a pearl between each encounter.

[FMArthur]

Looking at the Natural Link feature (Races of the Wild, p. 157), it says, "The bonus on skill checks, saves, or hit points granted by the familiar doubles."

I guess the question is whether an Initiative check is technically a skill check or a save...and I assume this is, as they say, debatable.

That said, I've used it the same way myself. Gotta love those hummingbirds.

:smalltongue:

That's clear as day. Initiative is a Dexterity check, but it's not a skill check, save or hit points. :smallconfused:

[Ernir]

There is a real problem with Nerveskitter wands, that the Rules Compendium didn't fix. Curmudgeon explained it:

There's a problem with [a wand of Nerveskitter].
“Unlike other immediate actions, you can cast this spell while flat-footed.” There's no allowance to activate any item when you're flat-footed, even if you would be allowed to cast a spell that the item contains. So a wand of Nerveskitter is useless.

[Oscredwin]

First level spell slot and three pearls of power it is!

[Corundum Dragon]

As someone else pointed out somewhere else The Circlet of Mages (MiC86, 5,000 gp) Gives continuous +2 to Concentration checks and letting you retain three levels of cast spells per day.

I would try a Neverskitter item. Maybe an earring or ear cuff something that wouldn't interfere with other items.

I'm not sure what the general consensus on non standard Permanency spells (nsp) are, but I think that would be the best option.
Maybe you could get it with the restrictions for nsp spells. At each level you can have nsp cast on you as shown below.
1st lv
1 - lv 1 spell
2nd lv
1 - lv 2 spell or
2 - lv 1 spells
3rd lv
1 - lv 3 spell or
1 - lv 2 spells, and 1 - lv 1 spell or
3 - lv 1 spells
etc.

[Metal Bee]

i have a question about the spell itself.

i cast it this week and feel it was completely nerfed by the DM.
an initiative roll occurred. we were not caught in ambush or by surprise. i popped nerveskitter and should have placed 2nd in the order. but when it came to my turn i was told i couldnt cast a spell as i had already cast a spell for this round. this seems stupid. it basically means that by casting nerveskitter in order to try and act first, you ultimately will act last as you are deemed to have already moved. does this not nullify the spell as a self buff?

thoughts please.

[ThiagoMartell]

Nerveskitter items don't work. Nerveskitter received errata so as to make it possible to cast it while flat-footed. There is no rule anywhere that allows you to activate items while flat-footed.

[Esgath]

i have a question about the spell itself.

i cast it this week and feel it was completely nerfed by the DM.
an initiative roll occurred. we were not caught in ambush or by surprise. i popped nerveskitter and should have placed 2nd in the order. but when it came to my turn i was told i couldnt cast a spell as i had already cast a spell for this round. this seems stupid. it basically means that by casting nerveskitter in order to try and act first, you ultimately will act last as you are deemed to have already moved. does this not nullify the spell as a self buff?

thoughts please.

Not only was this spell nerfed, the entire spellcasting was changed. Spells/powers/items/whatever have casting times. It is easy to cast 2 spells in a round, e.g. quickened fireball + grease.

[nyjastul69]

Nitpick: With a BAB of +1 or greater a weapon can be drawn as a free action as part of a regular movement, not as part of a move action.
Edit: This in regards to the OP, my phone doesn't allow for enough characters to quote and respond, sorry.

[Answerer]

I guess the question is whether an Initiative check is technically a skill check or a save...and I assume this is, as they say, debatable.
It's not, actually. Initiative is explicitly a form of Dexterity check, that is, an ability check. As such, it's not a skill check (which are another, separate type of special ability check). Note that Initiative does not use any of the mechanics used by saves or skills: no base initiative bonus based on class level(s), no ranks, etc.

[Darth Stabber]

It's not, actually. Initiative is explicitly a form of Dexterity check, that is, an ability check. As such, it's not a skill check (which are another, separate type of special ability check). Note that Initiative does not use any of the mechanics used by saves or skills: no base initiative bonus based on class level(s), no ranks, etc.

It should be a skill, it worked well as one in SWSE. of course like most other skills you were best off replacing it with use the force check

[Agincourt]

Not only was this spell nerfed, the entire spellcasting was changed. Spells/powers/items/whatever have casting times. It is easy to cast 2 spells in a round, e.g. quickened fireball + grease.

Yeah, Metal Bee, that's your DM's house rule. That's the kind of thing he should tell you before you create your character and start selecting feats and spells. Basically every spell with a casting time of Immediate Action or Swift Action was made nearly useless. The biggest draw of such spells is that you can cast them plus still have your standard action to use however you want. The feat Quickened Spell was just made useless.

If I had invested any significant time in my character, I'd be pretty upset.

PS: It's possible your DM's ruling was correct if the spell you tried to cast was a swift action spell. You are only allowed 1 swift action a round. Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action, though, which you had not used yet.

[LTwerewolf]

From the SRD:

At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check.


To Metal Bee: your dm house ruled that, and like others have said is not a very good house rule. In the regular game it's possible to cast up to 5 spells in a single round.

[Slipperychicken]

Wand. After 50 combats, you should have leveled up like 4 times, and gotten way more than enough WBL to compensate. One or two should last you the whole campaign. You can also "burst" them all in one day, of the game demands (as opposed to an eternal wand, where it stops working after the third combat in a day).

Players tend to get obsessed with never using consumables, and it ends up hurting them in the long run. Sure, you *can* go on forever completely self-sufficient, but you almost never need to.

[Story]

From the SRD:



To Metal Bee: your dm house ruled that, and like others have said is not a very good house rule. In the regular game it's possible to cast up to 5 spells in a single round.

Maximized Time Stop. Arcane Fusion. Arcane Fusion, Arcane Fusion, Arcane Fusion, Arcane Fusion

And that's not even getting into Beholder Mage cheese, though that's TO since no DM would ever let you become one.

Also, can't you use your standard action to take a second swift action instead? I thought rules normally allowed you to substitute a lesser action.

[Esgath]

No, you can't.

Also, shapechange into a chronotyryn (Fiend Folio, page 33), cast 2 swift/immediate action and 2 standard action spells. Then have a friend who delayed an action or with lesser initiative than yourself use white raven tactics on you. Now you just go again with 2 swift/immediate and 2 standard action spells. Well, this is really only for high optimization high level campaigns.

The point is, 2 spells a round is normal and really intended by the rules. Maybe your DM doesn't know about swift/immediate actions and didn't think about Quicken Spell.

[nedz]

i have a question about the spell itself.

i cast it this week and feel it was completely nerfed by the DM.
an initiative roll occurred. we were not caught in ambush or by surprise. i popped nerveskitter and should have placed 2nd in the order. but when it came to my turn i was told i couldnt cast a spell as i had already cast a spell for this round. this seems stupid. it basically means that by casting nerveskitter in order to try and act first, you ultimately will act last as you are deemed to have already moved. does this not nullify the spell as a self buff?

thoughts please.

By RAW using an immediate action consumes your swift action for the next round. This means that you should have still had your Move and Standard actions; you just couldn't cast a swift or quickened spell in your next round, or take another immediate action in the interim.

Ed: casting nerveskitter is an immediate action — of course.

[Story]

That's odd. I'm pretty sure 4e allows action substitution, but I guess the concept wasn't around when 3.5e was written. It seems very natural to me.

[Lapak]

That's odd. I'm pretty sure 4e allows action substitution, but I guess the concept wasn't around when 3.5e was written. It seems very natural to me.You can trade a standard for a move, but not for a swift. The whole swift/immediate action was a patch that didn't start out in 3rd edition at all, and the types of spells and abilities that were introduced with it weren't balanced to allow more than one of them - actually, the whole point of introducing Immediate/Swift (as opposed to Free) actions at all was to limit characters to one interrupting-type action per round.

[Malroth]

Wand UMDed and shared by the raven in my pocket.

[Glimbur]

That's odd. I'm pretty sure 4e allows action substitution, but I guess the concept wasn't around when 3.5e was written. It seems very natural to me.

There are problems with it: it's easier to attack or buff with a swift than with a move. Consider, for example, the ability to throw Burning Blade and another boost on your strike as a Tome of Battle type person (swordsage, probably). Or two quickened spells a round instead of one. Or you can activate two magic items and still make a standard action. Or... swift actions are better than move actions, once you have several ways to use them.

[Archmage1]

Fun house rules: potion as a move action.

But yea. If your DM lets you wand spells, and treat it exactly as the spell, just go for the wand. The only time eternal wands are worth it is for very long campaigns, and something that you are going to want, but not a lot.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Nerveskitter is an immediate action.

Using it means you lose your SWIFT action on your next turn and cannot use it for spellcasting or whatever else. It does not eat your STANDARD action.

Reference: The rules for swift and immediate actions. Your DM should read them some time.

[Oscredwin]

Fun house rules: potion as a move action.

But yea. If your DM lets you wand spells, and treat it exactly as the spell, just go for the wand. The only time eternal wands are worth it is for very long campaigns, and something that you are going to want, but not a lot.

Also for a spell you'll want to cast 1-2 times a day during downtime and isn't on your spells known (or you have all those slots accounted for already for some crazy reason). Eg. an eternal wand of Alarm for a Sorc who doesn't know the spell.

[Metal Bee]

thank you all, some great advice and references there. so good in fact, my DM is likely to kill me off out of spite.