PDA

View Full Version : Explanation of "Fantasy Kitchen Sink"



Maquise
2012-10-14, 02:08 PM
I've heard the term "Fantasy Kitchen Sink" several times on this forum and other RPG related sources, and I'm not entirely certain what the phrase entails.

When looking at a campaign setting that includes an entire world, I think of our own world, and the amount of biological and cultural differences that it has. It is not unfeasible to me that a world where magic is abundant would have even more diversity. In fact, it would strain my suspension of disbelief if there wasn't.

At what point is it too much? When does a diverse world become a fantasy kitchen sink? It is my belief that a place could be found for anything in a world, as long as it has its place and its inclusion does not cause any contradictions.

Aneurin
2012-10-14, 02:17 PM
As I understand it, it's a reference to the phrase "...everything but the kitchen sink".

In this case, the full version being: "The fantasy world contains everything but the kitchen sink."

That's my reading, anyway - I could be wrong. Just means that every fantasy trope going has been shoved in there.

Frozen_Feet
2012-10-14, 02:18 PM
Here we go. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasyKitchenSink)

It's not just that there are loads of different fantastic elements - it's also that they don't usually even belong to the same genre, and each has their own explanation. There is a point where such setting loses focus and starts to undermine itself, usually because interactions between the separate elements are not well thought out.

Sucrose
2012-10-14, 02:20 PM
I've heard the term "Fantasy Kitchen Sink" several times on this forum and other RPG related sources, and I'm not entirely certain what the phrase entails.

When looking at a campaign setting that includes an entire world, I think of our own world, and the amount of biological and cultural differences that it has. It is not unfeasible to me that a world where magic is abundant would have even more diversity. In fact, it would strain my suspension of disbelief if there wasn't.

At what point is it too much? When does a diverse world become a fantasy kitchen sink? It is my belief that a place could be found for anything in a world, as long as it has its place and its inclusion does not cause any contradictions.

As with many things related to art, this is a matter of taste. Clearly, you have more tolerance for diversity of ideas within a campaign setting than others you have spoken with about this.

Personally, I'm generally of the same opinion as you, though I do generally want my fantasy stories to at least come from the same genre; I'd prefer to avoid having sci-fi concepts in my fantasy settings, and vice versa.

toapat
2012-10-14, 02:24 PM
the easy thing would be to link you here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasyKitchenSink)

the short is: The setting takes anything people can think up, and they then throw that into the setting. Faerun for instance has:

Elves (Norse)
Dark Elves (Norse mistranslation)
Psycho Elves (Parody)
Nazi Elves (WW2)
Kidnapped Egyptian Slaves (RL)
Kidnapped Babylonian slaves (RL)
Orcs (dunno)
Half Orcs
Half Elves (Modern)
Yuan-Ti (Oriental)
Dwarves (Norse)
Duergar (English)
Evil Duergar (English)
The Norse Pantheon
The Egytian Pantheon
The Babylonian Patheon
Dragons (Norse)
Dragons, Blow (Oriental)
Ninjas and Samurai (Feudal Japan)
Knights and Clerics (Mideval Europe)
Coffee Pots (RL)

im not going to bother listing more, its getting too long



It's not just that there are loads of different fantastic elements - it's also that they don't usually even belong to the same genre, and each has their own explanation. There is a point where such setting loses focus and starts to undermine itself, usually because interactions between the separate elements are not well thought out.


Ironically, Eberron suffers from this more then Faerun

Togath
2012-10-15, 01:47 AM
Is a fantasy kitchen sink considered better if the various things end up with explanations on how they fit together?

Frozen_Feet
2012-10-15, 03:27 AM
Yes, provided the explanation is good.

Lord.Sorasen
2012-10-15, 03:43 AM
Is a fantasy kitchen sink considered better if the various things end up with explanations on how they fit together?

I'm not entirely certain it would be. Some people have (and this is by no means an insult to said people) more rigid ideas of what they consider to be part of a genre. When they put themselves in a story, they can suspend their disbelief if it remains things that are "normal" for the genre. But after a certain point it becomes difficult to pass it off as normal. I'm not sure if that makes any sense, but examples I can use would be Aliens in Indiana Jones, or Star Wars characters in Soul Caliber 5. People will make comments about both of those stating that the other things in those works are just as ridiculous as the new genre bending aspects, but it's a different KIND of ridiculous.

This might be biased though, it comes from someone who absolutely loves kitchen sink fantasy stories.

Yora
2012-10-15, 03:51 AM
Is a fantasy kitchen sink considered better if the various things end up with explanations on how they fit together?

Yes, and I would say at that point it stops being a kitchen sink setting.

There is no problem with having a setting that has a greek inspired culture, an Inca inspired culture, and Egyptian inspired one and a Chinese inspired one, as well as Mongolian inspired orcs and Scandinavian inspired dwarves.
Things get bad and kitchen sinky, when you have Greeks with a different name, Egyptians with a different name, Mongols with tusks, and generic bearded Scottish alchoholic miners. That's not creating cultures inspired by examples, this is just taking things from everywhere, throwing it into the sink, and calling that pile a setting.

Arbane
2012-10-15, 04:15 AM
I'm not entirely certain it would be. Some people have (and this is by no means an insult to said people) more rigid ideas of what they consider to be part of a genre.

The immense WHARRGARBL that shows up in discussions of guns in fantasy settings leaps instantly to mind. :smallamused:

Yora
2012-10-15, 04:19 AM
There's nothing wrong with guns in for example Dishonored or Warcraft. But those settings are made to have guns as part of the whole setting. It's something entirely different when you have an Ancient Egypt country bordered by Lothlorien, and then one of the hobbits says he's going to buy a musket at the store. That's where people get unhappy.

Vitruviansquid
2012-10-15, 04:36 AM
I'd say Kitchen Sink is the a design philosophy of 'if it's cool, let's put it in!' rather than the more conventional, 'if it adds to the theme, let's put it in.' I wouldn't say that having a Kitchen Sink philosophy is either always good or bad. Sometimes, throwing everything you think is awesome into a setting does in fact make that setting awesome.

Palegreenpants
2012-10-15, 07:29 AM
In my setting, I generally allow anything to be added as long as the players can give me a really good reason for it existing.
And generally it must be a reason that does not include to much "it exists 'caus it's magical".

You could have a kitchen sink setting, as long as there is a good logical, realistic explanation for everything.

Kurald Galain
2012-10-15, 08:18 AM
Here we go. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasyKitchenSink)

Also relevant: Tropes Are Not Bad (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TropesAreNotBad).

Fantasy Kitchen Sink is a trope. Some people love it, some people hate it. Just pointing out that a setting is FKS doesn't mean it's a bad setting.

tbok1992
2012-10-16, 02:48 PM
Well, I'm the sort of person who adores me some fantasy kitchen sink/weird genre hybrids. That's probably why I was so mad when they didn't make the monsters actual demons from hell in the Doom movie and why I love the "squashed-together multiverse" backstory of 7e Gamma World.

Hell, just check out my own setting Dungeonworld (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255799) to see how much I love this sort of poppycockery.

Blue Lantern
2012-10-16, 03:02 PM
I'd say Kitchen Sink is the a design philosophy of 'if it's cool, let's put it in!' rather than the more conventional, 'if it adds to the theme, let's put it in.' I wouldn't say that having a Kitchen Sink philosophy is either always good or bad. Sometimes, throwing everything you think is awesome into a setting does in fact make that setting awesome.

This seems one of the best explanation I have ever seen.

BootStrapTommy
2012-10-17, 01:24 PM
the easy thing would be to link you here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasyKitchenSink)

the short is: The setting takes anything people can think up, and they then throw that into the setting. Faerun for instance has:

Elves (Norse)
Dark Elves (Norse mistranslation)
Psycho Elves (Parody)
Nazi Elves (WW2)
Kidnapped Egyptian Slaves (RL)
Kidnapped Babylonian slaves (RL)
Orcs (dunno)
Half Orcs
Half Elves (Modern)
Yuan-Ti (Oriental)
Dwarves (Norse)
Duergar (English)
Evil Duergar (English)
The Norse Pantheon
The Egytian Pantheon
The Babylonian Patheon
Dragons (Norse)
Dragons, Blow (Oriental)
Ninjas and Samurai (Feudal Japan)
Knights and Clerics (Mideval Europe)
Coffee Pots (RL)

The answer is Tolkien. Tolkien invented orcs.

Also, the RP fantasy elves are more akin to the elves invented by Tolkien than the actually Norse or Germanic elves.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-17, 01:35 PM
I'd say Kitchen Sink is the a design philosophy of 'if it's cool, let's put it in!' rather than the more conventional, 'if it adds to the theme, let's put it in.' I wouldn't say that having a Kitchen Sink philosophy is either always good or bad. Sometimes, throwing everything you think is awesome into a setting does in fact make that setting awesome.
Case in point: Tenra Bansho Zero, which is basically a Japanese fantasy kitchen sink. With mecha.

Yora
2012-10-18, 02:50 AM
The answer is Tolkien. Tolkien invented orcs.

Also, the RP fantasy elves are more akin to the elves invented by Tolkien than the actually Norse or Germanic elves.

The answer almost always is Tolkien. :smallbiggrin:

nedz
2012-10-18, 05:02 AM
The answer almost always is Tolkien. :smallbiggrin:

But not according to Gary ?

Kitten Champion
2012-10-18, 07:20 AM
You could cognate Orcs to Ogres I suspect. Although ignoring Tolkien at this point would be foolish really.

Duergar are English? I thought they were Norse.

Xuc Xac
2012-10-18, 07:33 AM
Duergar are English? I thought they were Norse.

Don't expect much sense from a list that contrasts "England" and "Japan" with "real life".

Yora
2012-10-18, 07:37 AM
The Anglo Saxons were Germanic people from Germany. England is extremely infuelnced by Skandinavian and German culture.