What's the Better Class

[Annos]

I'm making a Faerunian Dragonborn Warforged to replace a soon to be dead charecter (paladins don't like insane necromantic sorcerers, who knew?) and am stuck between making him an artificer (the only class besides sorcerrer and wiard that can heal a living construct, also I'm the only one who will be able to heal him) or a paladin soon to be vessel of bahamut?

[Mithril Leaf]

Depends on the party composition. As far as pure power is concerned, artificer wins by a mile. If you guys are melee heavy, I'd go for artificer.

[Answerer]

Paladin is a relatively weak class. Smite Evil has so few uses per day that it's almost not worth remembering that you have it. Paladin spells are pretty good, particularly with Battle Blessing, but they're hardly amazing. You could go with Sword of the Arcane Order or Mystic Fire Knight to totally change that, but at that point we're not exactly discussing a normal Paladin anymore. Divine Grace is quite good, and the Special Mount's decent enough, but mostly the class doesn't have a lot going for it.

Artificer is one of the most powerful classes in the game, with access to an unparalleled number of options. Unfortunately, they're also one of the most difficult and complicated to play: making the most of an Artificer involves having a very expansive knowledge of the magic items that are available to you, and you'll probably need an Excel spreadsheet or something just to keep track of them all. Infusions are abilities that very much reward your ability to know what's coming up next, too, which means you need to do as much reconnaissance and divination as you can, which can also be complicated.

[etrpgb]

Paladin is fairly weak indeed. If you like the concept go Cleric of a good deity, it is better than the Paladin for all the practical purposes.

[eggs]

Both perform very poorly without deliberate with poor optimization, but the Artificer is a complete gamechanger when really tweaked.

[hex0]

Paladin is fairly weak indeed. If you like the concept go Cleric of a good deity, it is better than the Paladin for all the practical purposes.

Best of both, play a cleric/prestige paladin.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Something to bear in mind:

Artificer is like the bastard child resulting from a three-way between a wizard a psion and a rogue.

It has the ultimate strategic flexibility of the wizard, in that it can create -any- magical effect in the game given time and resources. It has the ultimate tactical flexibility of a psion in that he can spam the crap out of a certain set of magical effects he's preselected. Like the rogue, however, he's completely reliant on magic items to do much more than find traps, but moreso.

If you can't get the down time or the monetary resources to craft that item of +X to awesomeness or a scroll of <the perfect spell for the situation> you're going to have a really rough time of it, and you're even more dependent on learning what lies ahead than even the wizard. Crafting a wand of fireball in a campaign that unexpectedly makes frequent use of devils isn't going to go well.

Paladin, on the otherhand, is straight-foward, but inherently limited. There's a decent chasis with a few nice abilities and a spell-casting list that shouldn't be taken too lightly, but there's a good chance you will run into problems that are simply beyond the abilities of your character or any other melee class, if the DM is picking monsters from a hat or if there's a T1 or T2 caster smashing things left and right (read; being played irresponsibly) in the same party.

On the level of the individual gaming table there're also the RP aspects of the classes to consider. The paladin's CoC comes with some touchy RP baggage that all but out-right requires a mutual understanding between you and your DM about what it means; while an artificer, being a magical engineer, may not fit into the DM's setting or plot but wasn't explicitly banned for some reason. Nevermind personal preference between "magial engineer" and "knight in shining armor."

Once you've looked into all the probable issues of both classes, you can always flip a coin if you still can't decide. :smalltongue:

[Annos]

Unfortunatly I'm dead stuck on warforged dragonborn and I could only be effectivly healed if I became an Artificer, Sorcerer or Wizard, but becoming a vessel of bahamut seemed pretty cool...

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unfortunatly I'm dead stuck on warforged dragonborn and I could only be effectivly healed if I became an Artificer, Sorcerer or Wizard, but becoming a vessel of bahamut seemed pretty cool...

Not true. There's an ACF for a warforged paladin that allows him to use his lay on hands on himself and other constructs at full power and, I think though don't quote me, it adds the repair damage spells to his list.

Besides, that assumes you're going to be the only one capable of healing anyone. Where's the UMD rogue? The party's other arcanist? Lesser vigor still works, IIRC. There's no shortage of ways around the healing issue of being a warforged. Heck at the bear minimum there's a quick one or two level dip in reforged.

[Annos]

OH RIGHT!... too bad that messes with dragonborn paladin substitution class levels... or does it? i also really like the artificer for enchanting things :smallsmile: so i think i'm going with artificer... their should be a prestige class for dragonborn warforged.

[HunterOfJello]

What level will you be starting this new character at?

It's worth noting that Artificers become exponentially more complex as they gain levels and acquire their arsenal of magical items. It could be potentially overwhelming if you're starting one at a high level. If you're below level 10, then it probably won't be an issue.

Also, have you considered other classes like the Crusader or classes that possess UMD like the Bard, Rogue, Factotum, etc.?

~

It's also worth checking out the Warforged Artificer substitution levels. They're pretty cool. Especially the Weapon Familiar.

[Kelb_Panthera]

OH RIGHT!... too bad that messes with dragonborn paladin substitution class levels... or does it? i also really like the artificer for enchanting things :smallsmile: so i think i'm going with artificer... their should be a prestige class for dragonborn warforged.

Since I don't recall the specific levels or class feature trades I couldn't say off hand.

I don't know about Prestiging an artificer. My gut says that there's not many classes worth giving up the craft reserve for, but I do know that there's a warforged sub level for artificer and that it can get you an item familiar if those don't overwhelm your cheese tolerance.

[Annos]

My charecter is joining in on a lvl 4 party by them finding a room with an egg in the centre surrounded with a shield sickle morningstar, circlet, vest and a "wooden ball", when my previous character (of whom sucks and was made on my first encounter with 3.5 and since he is a necromancer the teams paladin will disbatch him anyway) goes over to loot the stuff, a hand shoots out of the egg and breaks his neck... a fitting demise for a chaotic evil charecter:smallamused:

[Kelb_Panthera]

My charecter is joining in on a lvl 4 party by them finding a room with an egg in the centre surrounded with a shield sickle morningstar, circlet, vest and a "wooden ball", when my previous character (of whom sucks and was made on my first encounter with 3.5 and since he is a necromancer the teams paladin will disbatch him anyway) goes over to loot the stuff, a hand shoots out of the egg and breaks his neck... a fitting demise for a chaotic evil charecter:smallamused:

Sounds like rather an anticlimactic death for any character to me, but they're your characters.

Good luck with the arti and happy gaming. Do yourself a favor though, and go with a buffer/bfc artificer. Just like a buffer/bfc wizard they don't generally get much complaint and you can rely mostly on a handful of wands rather than having or wanting to craft a specific item for each major encounter.

[Malroth]

Strike first, i'm sure the paladin will be much happier as an undead under your necromancers control than as a living stick in the mud only capable of absorbing a hit or 2.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Strike first, i'm sure the paladin will be much happier as an undead under your necromancers control than as a living stick in the mud only capable of absorbing a hit or 2.

I genuinely hope this (very bad) advice was given in jest.

Inter-party conflict takes a more mature group to handle well than the paladin's CoC ever will.

Also, paladins have a surprisingly high op-ceiling if you've got the right splats and decent op-fu. Probably more than high enough to take down a poorly built necromancer.

[Annos]

lvl 4 means that i don't get raise undead + it's a large party... i've been planning his death for over a year.
but if you have a better reason for a sorcerer to die and a warforged dragonborn to apear that CAN be roleplayed. please tell.

OH! I just thought of one. that "wooden ball" is a folding trap (scything blades), that could make for a "hunting accident".:smallamused:

[danzibr]

(Don't think anyone's thrown this out there)

Psion Warforgeds can heal themselves.

[Kelb_Panthera]

(Don't think anyone's thrown this out there)

Psion Warforgeds can heal themselves.

Even if you don't want to go whole-hog on psion, psionic tattoos are miles better than potions. Bonus points: they make you look badass.

[Annos]

Two problems with psions, to make it worth my while I'd want to be psiforged and have a psycic generator and other stuff like that EXPENSIVE, two in my eyes a metalic dragonthing with a blade for a hand flying right at you is mor bad ass covered in metal than crystals. Also being a psion oppens up more ways for our dm to destroy me. also I saw an image like this [http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/KrissXed/DND%2520Characters/DragonbornWarforged.jpg&imgrefurl=http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19714094/What_do_YOU_think_MY_character_looks_like%26post_n um%3D7239?liveView%3D0&h=424&w=369&sz=34&tbnid=EmsX5M7K_CA2ZM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=78&zoom=1&usg=__KYj-mDb8d_gklQPimvhEdzVLozg=&docid=OL1WrIOqc2yf1M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MJN7UICtJ_GxygGdiICoCA&ved=0CDkQ9QEwAg&dur=365 but red runes and with wings

[danzibr]

Two problems with psions, to make it worth my while I'd want to be psiforged and have a psycic generator and other stuff like that EXPENSIVE, two in my eyes a metalic dragonthing with a blade for a hand flying right at you is mor bad ass covered in metal than crystals. Also being a psion oppens up more ways for our dm to destroy me. also I saw an image like this [http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/KrissXed/DND%2520Characters/DragonbornWarforged.jpg&imgrefurl=http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19714094/What_do_YOU_think_MY_character_looks_like%26post_n um%3D7239?liveView%3D0&h=424&w=369&sz=34&tbnid=EmsX5M7K_CA2ZM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=78&zoom=1&usg=__KYj-mDb8d_gklQPimvhEdzVLozg=&docid=OL1WrIOqc2yf1M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MJN7UICtJ_GxygGdiICoCA&ved=0CDkQ9QEwAg&dur=365 but red runes and with wings
You totally don't have to blow a feat on Psiforged. I mean, it's good and all, but not necessary.

[Krazzman]

As it seems not be said here a Crusader (ToB) is able to heal a Warforged. Comes close to the fluff of a Paladin without the strictness and they are "multiclassable" to a certain degree.

[Annos]

I still want to be an artificer, any good books for and artificer?

[Answerer]

Any book that introduces a spell 4th-level or lower, or introduces any magic item, is a good book for an Artificer. It's part of the reason they can be so hard to play.

That said, Spell Compendium's got the most spells and Magic Item Compendium's got the most magic items, so... those are pretty good choices.

Anyway, here, have a handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2829.0).

[Annos]

Pft, I'm an Artificer I'll use craft artifact... oh wait... thats a divine feat:smallfrown:

[Answerer]

It's not a Feat at all, it's a Salient Divine Ability (there are such things as "Divine Feats," they're Feats that are powered by uses of Turn/Rebuke Undead). You could take it if you got Divine Rank 1 though, and getting Divine Rank 1 once you have Divine Rank 0 is pretty easy. There are extremely few RAW ways to get Divine Rank 0, though, even in Epic. The only thing I can think of is a Prestige Class in Dragon Magic that can grant DvR 0, but it's impossible to reach that level in the class before Epic levels anyway.

[Annos]

Could you Hint at the name? :smallwink:

[Answerer]

Not a clue, and I'm AFB so I can't even look through them. That said, though, you're level 4, the odds of you making it to level 20-whatever you need to actually get the DvR seems fairly unlikely. At any rate between now and then you'll surely have time to look through the PrCs yourself.

[Annos]

Are you sure it isn't a true dragon only PrC from Drac

[Rubik]

You can also use the Ice Assassin spell to create a clone of a deity (of any rank) and use that to bestow you with divine ranks.

[Answerer]

Are you sure it isn't a true dragon only PrC from Drac
Not sure at all. Though I'd be shocked if it actually specified "true" dragon; not a lot of things do that.

[Annos]

That works? If so, rule 0 will automaticly find some excuse for it not to work.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That works? If so, rule 0 will automaticly find some excuse for it not to work.

Assuming this in reference to the ice assassin trick. It can, but the deity you've made a copy of has to have a certain salient divine ability to do it.

As you noted however, this is one of those tricks that results in DMG's with ballistic trajectories.

You might look at magic of eberron for some interesting stuff. There's one PrC that makes potions suck a lot less if you're into that sort of thing. There's a couple others too though.

[Annos]

Artificers usually go strait all the way :smallamused:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Artificers usually go strait all the way :smallamused:

I'm aware. Giving up the free crafting feats and the craft reserve are pretty much never a purely logical choice, but rather one based on the "That's awesome, I totally wanna do that" line of thought.

After the spell and magic item compendiums, you might look for stuff that was printed later; Completes Champion, Scoundrel, and Mage for instance. MoE has schemas which are nice. They're basically scrolls that are useable 1/day rather than being expended on use. Any of the eberron specific books will usually have at least some artificer specific options and they all have spells that aren't in the compendium.

[Invader]

I have to ask just because I'm curious, are you playing a warforged Dragonborn specifically for flavor, because it seems like you're giving up all best traits that make a warforged an actual warforged.

[Mithril Leaf]

I have to ask just because I'm curious, are you playing a warforged Dragonborn specifically for flavor, because it seems like you're giving up all best traits that make a warforged an actual warforged.

Actually he's only giving up only the composite plating and some other really minor stuff. Dragonborn Warforged are one of the best racial combinations in the game because most of the best parts of Warforged comes from it's type and subtype, which it keeps.

[Answerer]

Heh, yeah, don't ever take Unarmored Body; why burn a feat when you can just get all the benefits of Dragonborn to remove it instead?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Bonus points: if you take one of the <special material> plating feats, you get to keep your composite armor when you become a dragonborn.

[Annos]

I'm taking Mithral body because I like AC and flying in heavy armor is two feats added on to the two feats neciserry to get flying.