Controlling a Frenzied Beserker

[Wise Green Bean]

I really like frenzied beserker PRC, but I'd also like to not kill my party. I'm looking at 3 basic approaches and nothing seems satisfactory yet.

Method one, boost the will save. Steadfast determination, indomitable will, and the best cloak of resistance my level 7 character can get. Near as I can tell, this is nowhere near where it needs to be, as I must reliably make a DC20 save. I also want some the feats for the basics of my combat style(power attack, shocktrooper, and extra rage) as well as the 3 prerequisite feats for the class. A total 10 feats and an expensive magic item, and I'm still killing my party.

Method two, handing out wands of calm emotions, probably more than one. Problem, that's fuggin' expensive at level 7, and means I have to have a really dreadful will save so that I'm consistently susceptible to the wands. That brings up the problem of getting hit with enchantment spells and using my frenzied beserker badassery on the party ANYWAY.

Method 3: Cut down on the duration of the frenzy. That means a low, probably negative, CON score. Obviously, this is a problem for a front line melee type, as I will likely die a horrible death long before I'm a danger to anyone.

So what to do? Are there any tricks I can use? I like the flavor, the preposterous damage, and a little risk of danger, but I really don't want to constantly wipe the party. I heard a suggestion about nonlethal weapons? Might work as part of a solution...help please!

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's always righteous wrath from BoED. The RAW may be a bit off, but the intent was clearly for it to affect something like the berserker's frenzy.

Though, there is an extreme measure if you're really worried. A continuous effect item of calm emotions shouldn't be too expensive. It'll prevent you from ever going into a frenzy, though it'll also prevent the basic rage too. On the bright side it'll also eliminate fear, despair, and any other effect relying on the manipulation of emotion. If you ever -really- need the rage and frenzy bonuses you can just remove the item and use one of the above methods as a backup.

[LordBlades]

Depending on how your DM rules it, Iron Heart Surge might be able to end Frenzy.

Alternatively, be the only non-flying party member. Also, Grease since you can't use Balance in Frenzy.

[killianh]

at level 9 the wizard casts wall of force.

EDIT: also rope trick would work

[Fable Wright]

It's simple, really. At the start of the day, have the party Wizard Suggest that, if you would start turning on the rest of the party that day, fall asleep for a minute. Willingly fail your save. If you word it carefully, it acts as a safeguard for the party, doesn't rely on you compromising your will save, and still has the small element of risk from your Suggestion getting Dispelled.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's simple, really. At the start of the day, have the party Wizard Suggest that, if you would start turning on the rest of the party that day, fall asleep for a minute. Willingly fail your save. If you word it carefully, it acts as a safeguard for the party, doesn't rely on you compromising your will save, and still has the small element of risk from your Suggestion getting Dispelled.

Be forewarned that a DM may decide that suggestion doesn't let you make implanted suggestions. There is however an implanted suggestion spell in SpC, I think. I may be remembering a psionic power by the same name, though in that case I'm not sure where it's printed, though part of my mind wants to say complete scoundrel.

[Fable Wright]

Be forewarned that a DM may decide that suggestion doesn't let you make implanted suggestions. There is however an implanted suggestion spell in SpC, I think. I may be remembering a psionic power by the same name, though in that case I'm not sure where it's printed, though part of my mind wants to say complete scoundrel.

From the text of suggestion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestion.htm):

You influence the actions of the target creature by suggesting a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two). The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell.

The suggested course of activity can continue for the entire duration. If the suggested activity can be completed in a shorter time, the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do. You can instead specify conditions that will trigger a special activity during the duration. If the condition is not met before the spell duration expires, the activity is not performed.

A very reasonable suggestion causes the save to be made with a penalty (such as -1 or -2).



Condition: Attack party.
Special Activity: Fall asleep for 60 seconds.

It seems fairly cut and dry to me...

[Kelb_Panthera]

From the text of suggestion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestion.htm):


Condition: Attack party.
Special Activity: Fall asleep for 60 seconds.

It seems fairly cut and dry to me...

Huh........ then why the devil did they make an implanted suggestion spell. I bet it has a day/level duration.

Sorry for the mistake, I really should know better than to say these things without verifying my memory first. :smalltongue:

[Wise Green Bean]

Hm. Lot of interesting suggestions.

Righteous wrath seems like cheating. I foresee the DM objecting to me getting all the benefits and none of the drawbacks.

Near as I can tell, a continuous calm emotions item only protects me from when I sustain damage. Once I take it off to actually frenzy(if I don't, there's not much point in being a frenzied beserker), I'm sort of in the same bind. I suppose I could just be in it for the power attack enhancements, but it stills grates to be a frenzied beserker who doesn't frenzy...

Inability to fly is probably going to be fairly crippling a lot of the time, a flying item is usually a must for me. Course I could always just smack the wizard for a fly spell when needed.

Wall of force comes online well after frenzied beserker starts. Down the line, yes, but that leaves several levels unprotected.

Rope trick sounds like it would take time for everyone to shimmy up and pull up the rope. By then, I imagine I'd probably have killed someone already.

I doubt a DM would rule in favor of IHSing it away. If I spent the standard action on Iron Heart Surge, I wouldn't be attacking things to the best of my ability, as frenzy demands.

Suggestion...I have never heard of the spell being used like that. Now that I look it up, it DOES have that clause in there. "You can instead specify conditions that will trigger a special activity during the duration. If the condition is not met before the spell duration expires, the activity is not performed." With a rod of extend, very interesting. Though again, I think I would have to fail a save. Can you choose to fail a save for a spell without the harmless descriptor?

Grease also sounds very promising. Only trouble would be activation of flight items. Guess I just can't have those. Again, will have to slap the wizard for a fly spell when the time comes.

[LordBlades]

Righteous wrath seems like cheating. I foresee the DM objecting to me getting all the benefits and none of the drawbacks.

You can always point at any full caster.What's their drawback for being more powerful than a FB will ever be?




I doubt a DM would rule in favor of IHSing it away. If I spent the standard action on Iron Heart Surge, I wouldn't be attacking things to the best of my ability, as frenzy demands.

IHS provides +2 to attack, don't forget. You're using IHS so you can attack better next round. Also, voluntarily trying to end the Frenzy also doesn't really fall under 'trying to attack to your best ability'. In the end it's about whether the DM genuilenly wants you to play a FB (and is willing to help you with that) or not.

[Ranting Fool]

A rather feat heavy way is:

Indomitable Soul (Lets you Roll 2D20 everytime you save Vs fear or mind affecting).. Rage is mind affecting isn't it?

but needs, Iron will (+2 will) and Endurance (A lot of PrC want this).


Or if you are a Half-Orc you could get Channeled Rage. Adds Str bonus (while raging) to a Will save.

[Man on Fire]

Steadfeast Determination and huge boost to cinstitution.

Grease really won't give you much, -4 to all attacks it's no more than mild inconvinience for a FB with his huge Attack Bonus and if guy has a crossbow he's gonna shoot at his party. If anything, use Web.

Another way is one level dip in Thayan Knight and having your wizard have one level in Red Wizard of Thay - you now automatically fail any Will save against his mind-affecting spells.

[LordBlades]

Grease really won't give you much, -4 to all attacks it's no more than mild inconvinience for a FB with his huge Attack Bonus and if guy has a crossbow he's gonna shoot at his party. If anything, use Web.



Grease requires a DC 10 Balance check to walk through it. You can't use Balance while in Frenzy. And ranged attacks honestly aren't that scary unless built for it, which a FB most likely isn't

[Fable Wright]

Suggestion...I have never heard of the spell being used like that. Now that I look it up, it DOES have that clause in there. "You can instead specify conditions that will trigger a special activity during the duration. If the condition is not met before the spell duration expires, the activity is not performed." With a rod of extend, very interesting. Though again, I think I would have to fail a save. Can you choose to fail a save for a spell without the harmless descriptor?
Yes. Yes, you can.


Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw
A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

[Wise Green Bean]

Hm. Buying a wand of grease and a few 3rd level pearls of power for my caster buddy might just be the answer.

As for not being powerful compared to a full caster, there's some truth to that, but near as I can tell, nothing touches the damage output of a frenzied beserker. Even a cleric persisting all his combat spells would be pressed to keep up. Not saying damage is the only factor, but the fact that I can solo a dragon in one round is pretty convincing, shivering touch aside.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I wouldn't say that righteous wrath is so much eliminating the drawbacks of Frenzy. For one thing, it's only eliminating the clause about attacking your allies. All the rest of the drawbacks still apply. For another, the feat is an exalted feat. That comes with its own drawback in the form of having to meet some fairly steep RP requirements or have it cease to function until you atone.

It's not so much cheating as trading a tactical RP requirement for a social one. If you're not willing to be Good+ you can't take the feat anyway.

[Darrin]

Would a Mindvault (MIC) work? Not sure if a FB could activate it willingly, but if so, I guess that buys his fellow PCs 1 round to shut him down, get out their wands of grease, etc.

Also: Iron Will + Cumbrous Will (Savage Species) = +8 bonus to Will saves. Mindarmor (+3000 GP, MIC) adds another +5 untyped bonus with an immediate action. Getting up to +20 on your Will save shouldn't be too tough from there.

[NikitaDarkstar]

I don't see why everyone is going for such magic solutions, last time we had a Frenzied Berserker in my group everyone just carried several bags of marbles, worked like a charm. That said, our player had both save boosting items and Wisdom boosting items so he did pass his save on a somewhat regular basis.

[JeminiZero]

My preferred solution is similiar to DMofDarkness Suggestion trick, but running off deception instead of magic: :smallbiggrin:


1) Have your character buy a sap. Doesn't need to be masterwork or anything, so it should be reasonably cheap.
2) Out of Character, arrange for your fellow players to have their characters regale your character with bizarre stories on how their secret super weakness is the humble Sap.
3) Intentionally, fail your sense motive check for their outlandish lies.
4) Your character now believes that your entire party has a secret weakness against saps.
5) When you run out of enemies, your character will now attack his friends "to the best of his ability". That will of course involve him pulling out the sap, their one secret weakness (or so he thinks) and hammering them into unconsciousness, but not death.

Step 1-4 are unnecessary if your caster can just mindrape you into believing that your friends are weak against saps.

[ILM]

Near as I can tell, a continuous calm emotions item only protects me from when I sustain damage. Once I take it off to actually frenzy(if I don't, there's not much point in being a frenzied beserker), I'm sort of in the same bind. I suppose I could just be in it for the power attack enhancements, but it stills grates to be a frenzied beserker who doesn't frenzy...
You could try and negociate a command-word item instead, like a necklace or headgear, that your allies could activate when you're going off the deep end. A kill-switch, if you like.

[LordBlades]

As for not being powerful compared to a full caster, there's some truth to that, but near as I can tell, nothing touches the damage output of a frenzied beserker. Even a cleric persisting all his combat spells would be pressed to keep up. Not saying damage is the only factor, but the fact that I can solo a dragon in one round is pretty convincing, shivering touch aside.

A blaster sorc can probably do more damage, from range and AOE, but as far as melee damage goes, FB is probably the best. Still, most of it ends up being overkill anyway. Pounce+Leap Attack+Shock Trooper+Valorous weapon are tricks anyone can pull off and they usually end up being enough to KO most stuff you're coming across. A monster brought to -11 is about as dead as a monster brought to -711.

[ahenobarbi]

Does frenzy prevent you from willingly failing save against Calm Emotions?

[dwlc2000]

Buy a brag of tricks, so when you start frenzying the party can throw fuzzy animals at you to kill until your frenzy goes away. If the animal is closer you than the party, you will try to kill the animal

[Kelb_Panthera]

Does frenzy prevent you from willingly failing save against Calm Emotions?

That's a point of contention. Some argue yes, some argue no.

Ask your DM.

[Man on Fire]

Grease requires a DC 10 Balance check to walk through it. You can't use Balance while in Frenzy. And ranged attacks honestly aren't that scary unless built for it, which a FB most likely isn't

But lying down on the ground means being prone, and you can make attacks when you're prone. At only -4 penalty, which is a joke for FB. It may work when you are far away, but if you're anywhere near him when he falls down he's gonna cut you in half from waist down. If the guy's lying down in the middle of dungeon corridor you all have to wait until he's cool or anybody trying to pass him is going to get killed. If anyone else gets caught in grease and falls down, FB will eat him. if any NPC is near, and is probably plot important oen then, he's dead. And if DM hates you, he's going to allow FB put his sword in the ground and crawl out of it. Grease won't stop you from crawling because you're already lying down. Web at least assures any idiot making fun of fallen FB won't get killed by accident.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Here's the problem...

Anything you use to shut down a FB... your opponents will eventually be able to take advantage of as well. So deliberately building a weak point into your FB is just going to make it that much easier to make sure you are locked down and unable to contribute ANYTHING in combat.

That's the problem with FB, and Rocket Tag in general, sooner or later, you end up getting the raw end of the deal.

Besides, the class is entirely unnecessary. You can already get stupid damage numbers out of PA without the class. All you are doing is setting up an eventual TPK.

[Malroth]

Frenzied Berserker is as bad for party unity and functionality as the Wizard Dominating everybod in their sleep. Yes you can Do it, No there's nothing anyone can do In game to stop it. No you shouldn't expect the other characters to be your characters friend afterwards.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Frenzied Berserker is as bad for party unity and functionality as the Wizard Dominating everybod in their sleep. Yes you can Do it, No there's nothing anyone can do In game to stop it. No you shouldn't expect the other characters to be your characters friend afterwards.

This is a bit of an exageration. You can get a FB will save up to the point where he can only fail the dc20 to exit his frenzy on a 1. Combined with any of a number of ways to get a re-roll or even just getting the others players to make sure the FB allways gets the last attack against the last foe can give him a stock 2.5% chance of attacking one ally. Combining the re-roll option with the above tactic gets you down to 1.25%. Assuming that he goes from entering FB to level 20 following the 13 encounters per level norm, that's only a 10% chance that he'll ever turn on the party in his entire career. That's not even accounting for the possibility of any of a number of other mitigating techniques, or the fact that chance can be reduced to 0% by a single (exalted) feat.

FB needs to be handled responsibly, but that doesn't mean it should never be used at all.

[LordBlades]

But lying down on the ground means being prone, and you can make attacks when you're prone. At only -4 penalty, which is a joke for FB. It may work when you are far away, but if you're anywhere near him when he falls down he's gonna cut you in half from waist down. If the guy's lying down in the middle of dungeon corridor you all have to wait until he's cool or anybody trying to pass him is going to get killed. If anyone else gets caught in grease and falls down, FB will eat him. if any NPC is near, and is probably plot important oen then, he's dead. And if DM hates you, he's going to allow FB put his sword in the ground and crawl out of it. Grease won't stop you from crawling because you're already lying down. Web at least assures any idiot making fun of fallen FB won't get killed by accident.

You can't charge from prone, and FB damage without charge isn't going to be anything to write home about.

Also, if your DM 'hates you' and starts houseruling stuff against you, it's an entirely different can of worms altogether.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually, FB damage is pretty solid even without the usual ubercharger suspects. 3:1 on power attack when you're gettin such a big boost to attack to begin with is nothing to sneeze at. Say you pump just enough into PA to negate the +5 to attack from being in a rage and frenzy at the same time. That's 15 from PA and 7 from str bonus on a two-hander for an extra 22 damage on each hit before you punch in the weapon itself, base-line str, and any other bonuses to damage or extra PA because you can still afford it. Plus you're only a couple levels from getting improved frenzy.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Righteous Wrath isn't cheating. It's basically the sort of the thing the feat exists for. It costs you a feat. And you have to be exalted good.

IHS doesn't work because it would require you to stop trying to attack for a round to use it. If you can claim "IHS to buff to hit!" then why not intimidate to lower the target's AC by 2? Same net effect. You have to attack with the frenzy, you can't get out of it that easily.

I never liked the interpretation that "can't make dex skill checks" = autofail them. THAT seems cheesy. And stupid. Guy goes berserk and suddenly can't hardly walk without smashing his face into the ground? WTF?
In any case, you roll out that weakness, the DM will use it on you gleefully and you'll get shutdown for whole combats with the greatest of ease. Not a good idea to bring it up, IMO...

So, I like the pre-emptive Suggestion and Righteous Wrath ideas.

Just my thoughts.

[Medic!]

I never liked the interpretation that "can't make dex skill checks" = autofail them. THAT seems cheesy. And stupid. Guy goes berserk and suddenly can't hardly walk without smashing his face into the ground? WTF?

Not 100% relevant to the original topic, but I just gotta say I agree with this completely. IMO it should be that you can't initiate said skill checks, making re-active checks still possible. You can't slight of hand or disable device or tie someone up, but you can make a balance check or an initiative check or (if your dex is higher than your str) resist a trip attempt.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually, a FB should be able to take other actions than move and attack during their frenzy. The line that reads "During her frenzy, a frenzied berserker must attack those she percieves as foes to the best of their ability," really shouldn't be read so literally as to mean that they can only use the attack action against their enemy.

Rather it should be read as attacking in the same sense as attacking breaking an invisibility spell, that is to say that she must take some hostile action directed at her foes. A literal reading that only allows the attack action should render the FB helpless if there's noone she can charge because taking a double move or running toward a foe wouldn't be attacking either. She'd throw her weapon if there was a target within range, and then stand there helpless until someone got close. This interpretation may still preclude IHS if it's a standard action to use though.

Personally, I take an even more liberal reading. As long as the FB is doing something that I agree would serve toward being better able to crush her percieved enemies, I allow it. IHS is out because I've houseruled it to something a bit more specific than its RAW printing.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Not 100% relevant to the original topic, but I just gotta say I agree with this completely. IMO it should be that you can't initiate said skill checks, making re-active checks still possible. You can't slight of hand or disable device or tie someone up, but you can make a balance check or an initiative check or (if your dex is higher than your str) resist a trip attempt.

Exactly. Glad I'm not alone.



Actually, a FB should be able to take other actions than move and attack during their frenzy. The line that reads "During her frenzy, a frenzied berserker must attack those she percieves as foes to the best of their ability," really shouldn't be read so literally as to mean that they can only use the attack action against their enemy.

Rather it should be read as attacking in the same sense as attacking breaking an invisibility spell, that is to say that she must take some hostile action directed at her foes. A literal reading that only allows the attack action should render the FB helpless if there's noone she can charge because taking a double move or running toward a foe wouldn't be attacking either. She'd throw her weapon if there was a target within range, and then stand there helpless until someone got close. This interpretation may still preclude IHS if it's a standard action to use though.

Personally, I take an even more liberal reading. As long as the FB is doing something that I agree would serve toward being better able to crush her percieved enemies, I allow it. IHS is out because I've houseruled it to something a bit more specific than its RAW printing.

Doesn't have to be the attack action, but should be trying to attack. Otherwise it's far too easy to undermine the intent. You could demoralize, as I said before. You could trip and disarm. You could "aid another", since "it's an attack, it uses an attack roll!" and so forth.... and basically rules lawyer your way out of ever actually potentially causing harm to your friends. I don't like that any more than the can't make reactive dex checks thing.

[Spuddles]

I played a FB in a campaign recently. He died the way he came into the world- screaming and covered in blood.

Turning on the party wasn't usually an issue, as the party stayed away from him and he stayed away from the party.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I played a FB in a campaign recently. He died the way he came into the world- screaming and covered in blood.

Turning on the party wasn't usually an issue, as the party stayed away from him and he stayed away from the party.

Story time? *hopefuly arches one eyebrow*

[LordBlades]

Actually, FB damage is pretty solid even without the usual ubercharger suspects. 3:1 on power attack when you're gettin such a big boost to attack to begin with is nothing to sneeze at. Say you pump just enough into PA to negate the +5 to attack from being in a rage and frenzy at the same time. That's 15 from PA and 7 from str bonus on a two-hander for an extra 22 damage on each hit before you punch in the weapon itself, base-line str, and any other bonuses to damage or extra PA because you can still afford it. Plus you're only a couple levels from getting improved frenzy.

Your to-hit on the other hand is quite low. you're stuck with bab +base str. At level 7 assuming 20 str (16 base, +2 from a race with str bonus and +2 item) you get +13/+13/+8 (with a +1 weapon), or +9/+9/+4 from prone(the situation discussed), which is unlikely to hit anything that didn't go the 'AC is a waste of time anyway'.

Don't get me wrong, I never said FB was useless when not charging, just that it isn't very scary.

[Man on Fire]

You forget that Frenzy gives pretty big Strength bonus. Which adds to attack bonus. And if FB also has active rage, that means bigger Strength bonus, as they stack. Hell, I'm playing character in one og Pbf games here ans just combining these two gives me +10 to Str.

[Wise Green Bean]

In response to Malroth, it's not really all that bad, eventually. By level 10 or so, the frenzied beserker is no longer dangerous.
Steadfast determination is CON to will saves and 1 isn't an auto-fail, so...
20 CON naturally, + another 4 while raging, that's +7.
Then a CON boosting items for + another 3 or 4(tome and item).
While raging you get a +2 to will save.
+2 from iron will.
+ something from however good a cloak of resistance I have by then.
11+some ambiguous amount between 6 and 8.
Then a buff from friendly neighborhood caster, and I'm over 20. My build plans to enter a level later than possible for human paragon, so I've got another CON boost and feat. Point being, frenzied beserker is fun and effective, and can be done without a TPK. It's a very interesting role play element(do we really want that loose cannon on our side?), and I can completely dump WIS, which I really like doing(honestly, a wise barbarian?). And it's a pretty effective build. If I get near it, it dies, and god help anyone who tries to make me fail a Fort or Will save. Sure it has weaknesses, but so does just about anything(a wizard in an AMF is just a commoner with a whole lot of HD). So really I'm just here to make things work in the 7-9 area where things aren't quite smoothed out.

The bag-of-tricks-go frenzy-on-the-helpless-furry-animals thing is evil. I like it.

Regarding the inability to make a DEX skill check, I don't find that too weird, at least for balance checks. The frenzied beserker is flipping out to kill things, so singlemindedly focused on the slaughter that he can't tell friend from foe. He also gets a pretty heft AC penalty. All this reads to me as a character so out of his mind that he's not really able to take care of himself or focus long enough to carefully get up. Makes as much sense as anything else in DnD.

[Man on Fire]

(honestly, a wise barbarian?)

Conan is dissapointed in you.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You forget that Frenzy gives pretty big Strength bonus. Which adds to attack bonus. And if FB also has active rage, that means bigger Strength bonus, as they stack. Hell, I'm playing character in one og Pbf games here ans just combining these two gives me +10 to Str.

I didn't forget, I converted it into damage bonus.

Let me take those numbers a bit further.

Human Barbarian 6/FB 5 Starting str = 18, BAB = 11, Belt of giant str +4, and a +3 greatsword.

That's a total of +20 to attack. Average AC for level 11 is 24.

So our berserker, under normal circumstances hits on a 4 for 19 damage. Going into a rage and frenzy increases that base str to 28, and He's now only missing on a 1 for 26 damage. Of course part of that str bonus to attack is wasted now. Putting 5 into power attack will negate the boost to attack bringing us back down to hitting on a 4, but increasing damage to 41.

With a routine of +20/+20/+15/+10 We weight the 41 points to 34.85/34.85/24.6/14.35 for an average damage of 108.65 in a full attack. That's just a standing full attack, and this is far from well optimized.

You could easily get another 4 to attack for the same value on a prone full attack, or perhaps more if you get some of it from a better racial choice. The party's wand user could've be sporting a GMW at CL16 by now, if nothing else. There could be a bard inspiring courage, or even greatness.

My point is that FB is pretty much the king of melee damage, since this can be stacked onto the usual ubercharger framework of feats, with only minor adjustment. The only other thing I can think of that can hang up here is kensai under a certain reading of the rules, but he needs several rounds to charge it up.

[Zombimode]

From the text of suggestion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestion.htm):


Condition: Attack party.
Special Activity: Fall asleep for 60 seconds.

It seems fairly cut and dry to me...

Of course, this will very likely not work.

"Falling asleep" is nothing you can simply decide to do. You can decide to try to fall asleep. Succeeding is another matter. So, if the FB is not extremely tired in that he could fall asleep on the spot, this is what will happen:

FB: "Rargh, smash my companions!"
*suggestion triggers*
FB: *tries to fall asleep* "Nah, I'm not tired. Onward with the killing!"

And even IF he falls asleep, he will not sleep for exactly 60 seconds, since this is also something you can not control.

And this is before we get into the other specifications of the spell:
The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell.

I mean, dude, if you want to munchkin away the drawback of the FB, at least put some effort into it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Of course, this will very likely not work.

"Falling asleep" is nothing you can simply decide to do. You can decide to try to fall asleep. Succeeding is another matter. So, if the FB is not extremely tired in that he could fall asleep on the spot, this is what will happen:

FB: "Rargh, smash my companions!"
*suggestion triggers*
FB: *tries to fall asleep* "Nah, I'm not tired. Onward with the killing!"

There's contingency, keyed to calm emotions if you attack <list of your party's specific names>. Though that may be tricky to arrange...... psionic contingency!...... no wait, tatt's are limited to 3rd level....... craft contingent spell if you can get it into your game.

[Medic!]

Conan is dissapointed in you.

As is every other famous barbarian ever in real history or fantasy history. There's a reason Survival is on the Barbarian skill list.

If anyone has ever not read The First Law trilogy, they should. There's a Frenzied Berserker in there straight out of the rule books, wise as a sage, intelligent as a rock, strong as an ox, and in his own lifetime mothers scared their children in broad daylight with the very mention of his name.

The Bloody-Nine!

[LordBlades]

I mean, dude, if you want to munchkin away the drawback of the FB, at least put some effort into it.

Nobody is munchkining anything, it's just trying to make FB playable.

[Medic!]

I didn't forget, I converted it into damage bonus.

Let me take those numbers a bit further.

Human Barbarian 6/FB 5 Starting str = 18, BAB = 11, Belt of giant str +4, and a +3 greatsword.

That's a total of +20 to attack. Average AC for level 11 is 24.

So our berserker, under normal circumstances hits on a 4 for 19 damage. Going into a rage and frenzy increases that base str to 28, and He's now only missing on a 1 for 26 damage. Of course part of that str bonus to attack is wasted now. Putting 5 into power attack will negate the boost to attack bringing us back down to hitting on a 4, but increasing damage to 41.

With a routine of +20/+20/+15/+10 We weight the 41 points to 34.85/34.85/24.6/14.35 for an average damage of 108.65 in a full attack. That's just a standing full attack, and this is far from well optimized.

You could easily get another 4 to attack for the same value on a prone full attack, or perhaps more if you get some of it from a better racial choice. The party's wand user could've be sporting a GMW at CL16 by now, if nothing else. There could be a bard inspiring courage, or even greatness.

My point is that FB is pretty much the king of melee damage, since this can be stacked onto the usual ubercharger framework of feats, with only minor adjustment. The only other thing I can think of that can hang up here is kensai under a certain reading of the rules, but he needs several rounds to charge it up.

The only thing scarier than an orc barbarian running over a hill at you FB is a one-eyed orc barbairan FB gestalted with a Warhulk running over a hill at you.


I'm not gonna lie, sometimes I think I'd like to see a variant for Frenzy like the Berserker Strength variant for Rage, so it activates on low HP and stays active. Of course that would make a 'zerker invulnerable to death from HP damage, and ending a frenzy could turn into a rediculously hillarious ordeal...

[Wise Green Bean]

The primary goal of being a barbarian is to throw yourself directly into the middle of a great big heap of violence, probably with reckless disregard for personal safety. Dunno, wisdom just feels slightly out of place there, at least for most warriors I'd envision with that style.

[Man on Fire]

I didn't forget, I converted it into damage bonus.

By "you" I meant LordBlades.


The primary goal of being a barbarian is to throw yourself directly into the middle of a great big heap of violence, probably with reckless disregard for personal safety. Dunno, wisdom just feels slightly out of place there, at least for most warriors I'd envision with that style.

Wisdom is useful to not get mind-controlled, especially if your DM don't allow ToB and you cannot take Steadfeast Determination. The only thing worse than Barbarian mind-controlled by enemy spellcaster ripping apart rest of the party is...Frenzied Berserker doing it.


The only thing scarier than an orc barbarian running over a hill at you FB is a one-eyed orc barbairan FB gestalted with a Warhulk running over a hill at you.


You cannot combine two PrCs at in Gestalt. In Tristalt however, with Psychic Warrior at third line, giving you more feats you'll ever need - now that's scary.

[LordBlades]

By "you" I meant LordBlades.




And my post was in reply to Kelb_Panthera, so making the same assumptions.

[Kelb_Panthera]

By "you" I meant LordBlades.

Oh, heh. Oops. :smalltongue:




Wisdom is useful to not get mind-controlled, especially if your DM don't allow ToB and you cannot take Steadfeast Determination. The only thing worse than Barbarian mind-controlled by enemy spellcaster ripping apart rest of the party is...Frenzied Berserker doing it. QFT. I'd never buid a FB that didn't have wis as his primary. The bonuses from rage and frenzy more than make up for a lower starting str, IMO.

It can work thematically too. The berserks of viking culture were often depicted as being fairly kind and/or gentle thinkers when they weren't in their battle rage. Even if that weren't true there's just something compelling about a character that switches gears so suddenly and completely.



You cannot combine two PrCs at in Gestalt. In Tristalt however, with Psychic Warrior at third line, giving you more feats you'll ever need - now that's scary.

True, but even just 5 levels of war-hulk stacked onto one side, when you're not losing any BAB for it, is nasty.

[Fable Wright]

Of course, this will very likely not work.

"Falling asleep" is nothing you can simply decide to do. You can decide to try to fall asleep. Succeeding is another matter. So, if the FB is not extremely tired in that he could fall asleep on the spot, this is what will happen:

FB: "Rargh, smash my companions!"
*suggestion triggers*
FB: *tries to fall asleep* "Nah, I'm not tired. Onward with the killing!"

And even IF he falls asleep, he will not sleep for exactly 60 seconds, since this is also something you can not control.

And this is before we get into the other specifications of the spell:

I mean, dude, if you want to munchkin away the drawback of the FB, at least put some effort into it.
Alternatively:
"Whenever you would attempt to attack us, your adventuring group, instead curl up into the fetal position until the urges to do so pass so that you don't lose the people you care to temporary urges."
(As a side benefit, getting mind-controlled into turning against the party suddenly isn't something to worry about anymore...)

The main point I was trying to make was to get across was to use Suggestion, or some similar mind manipulation, to install a button that could be used as a safeguard without compromising the viability of the build. I wasn't trying to match the specifics perfectly, rather showcasing a concept. Using examples of falling asleep (i.e. becoming perfectly harmless) until the danger is past (60 seconds, 10 rounds, when the rage is going to be over by) is a simple example that conveys the point I'm trying to make, without potentially obfuscating the meaning behind semantics.

On a side note, "munchkin" is a derogatory term for powergaming above and beyond the other people you're playing with and overshadowing the rest of the party. Using the term to describe someone who's offering advice to someone else whose group's optimization levels we know nothing about is both incorrect usage of the term and insulting. If it's a level of optimization your group is okay with (i.e. getting rid of the drawback of occasionally killing them), it's not munchkinry. Using the class for the ridiculous damage might be munchkinry to the group, but proposing a fix to something that the group as a whole likely has a qualm with is not muchkinry. Please reconsider your word choices in the future.

[Medic!]

Saying barbarians are for raging and smashing is about like saying rogues are for sneak attacking. Wisdom can mean a lot of things...ruthless cunning, woodsmanship (?), tactical insight, a PhD in the school of Hard Knocks...

EDIT: Barbarians are like that Farm Kid in school...quiet, maybe doesn't read as fluidly as everyone else, but can do anything he wants with his hands, knows when the fish are bitin', and blanks out in a fight - usually breaking someone's nose in the bargain.


@the FB/Warhulk, as Kelb_Panthera noted, staggering the progressions or just not taking them at the same time so you get your Warhulk tasties without losing BAB is <3

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Nobody is munchkining anything, it's just trying to make FB playable.

You can't.

I don't make this statement lightly. I've taken pride in my optimization skills. I'm the guy who took a Tier 6 class (CW Samurai) and made it a thing to be feared. I'm the one who came up with the 'Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies' build which deals NI damage to everything within line of sight. I have played every single low-tier class, and been able to make each of them at least viable in a T3 setting. Yes, even Truenamer. Yes, even Soulknife. Yes, even Soulborn.

So when I say that no, you will never be able to eliminate the risk of TPK completely without also eliminating the risk of being entirely shut down and no longer a threat to opponents... I want you to fully comprehend the entirety of that statement. Sure, you can reduce the risk... but never eliminate it entirely, therefore sooner or later, with enough encounters, the natural 1 or string of natural 1's will inevitably come up... and it will be a TPK.

When your opponents realize you have a tendency to fly off the handle, they're going to start using that against you, if they have the tactical sense the Powers That Be gave a lemming. Which means sniping you from stealth and cover, forcing you to make Will saves or TPK, because no other enemies are immediately in view.

The only way to keep it from being a TPK is to build in and incorporate a design flaw as a 'failsafe'. Unfortunately, when your opponents realize this failsafe, they will also employ it. So if you deliberately prevent him from flying in order to be able to shut him down with Grease in the event of potential-TPK, then you will either have opponents also using marbles/grease/etc or simply flying opponents whom the Frenzied Berserker cannot engage.

At that point, you have built the character in such a way that either 'you win' or 'you are worthless'... therefore, a GM must inevitably, if he wishes to try to challenge the party and not just let you cakewalk through his campaign, shut you down completely.

Frenzied Berserker is clearly intended to be an NPC class anyways. I'm not entirely sure why it was published as a playable class. I would even go so far as to say the class is 'broken' as in 'mechanically fails in the primary goal of allowing players to have a good time' due to this innate flaw which will take control away from the player of the character and force him to TPK the party. That's not a good time. That's also likely to cause lots of hard feelings around the table.

The only character this build might not slaughter is a fully optimized 'cheese' Batman Wizard who isn't even residing on the same plane of existence with the rest of the party anymore, simply projecting himself through an Astral Projection from his pocket plane. Of course, if you have a build as optimized as this in the party, the Frenzied Berserker is completely obsolete anyways, so the point is moot since the player would be rather bored by having nothing to do.

[Threadnaught]

The line that reads "During her frenzy, a frenzied berserker must attack those she percieves as foes to the best of their ability," really shouldn't be read so literally as to mean that they can only use the attack action against their enemy.

Let me read that point and take it as literally as possible, just to annoy you a little. "To the best of their ability," so if a FB is unable to attack at any point and a DM rules they lose the Frenzy, the DM deserves a slap from all the players for...
Forcing the Paladin to choose between what's right and what's lawful, or letting them talk to a random Commoner who turned out to be evil and stripping the Paladin's powers. Waking the Spellcasters during the night, every night, stealing their Spellbooks, Component Pouches and Holy Symbols. Giving everything with a pocket a bunch of loud objects rigged to go off if the Rogue tries stealing anything. Had a bunch of Monks ready to counter any ranged attacks. Strong winds every time the players tried to fly. Their own flying creatures in every fight so the players wouldn't be able to fight back. Forcing a Vow of Poverty Player to accept a massive amount of wealth, whether the DM lets them know or not. And making creatures immune to every single trick the party has access to.
Seriously, that whole line implies that it isn't possible to attack every turn and that the DM should allow the FB Player to get to a position better suited for dealing damage if they can't already attack.

There's literal interpretation of the rules, then there's flat out ignoring bits of them so they work your way.

I'd advise anyone to build their FB's personality around what they're threatened by, the people/creatures they hate, mistrust and fear. This works a little like the Ranger's favoured enemy list, whatever is ranked the highest on your FB's "favoured enemy" list, should be what a FB attacks first and puts in most of their effort to killing. This offers more freedom of which opponents you can attack and after each battle, depending on which enemies put up more of a fight, you can actually change your attitude toward an enemy type to modify the ranks. I'm not talking about bonuses btw, just targeting, what "the FB perceives as a foe." Oh hey, another literal interpretation of the rules that helps the player.

[LordBlades]

You can't.



This thread contains a bunch of tricks that either work by RAW or are debatable enough that some DMs would let them fly.

Saying 'you can't make a playable FB if you don't allow any of the tricks that make it playable' is like saying 'a wizard can't break the game if you ban all spells'. 100% true, but completely meaningless in the context of many games.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Let me read that point and take it as literally as possible, just to annoy you a little. "To the best of their ability," so if a FB is unable to attack at any point and a DM rules they lose the Frenzy, the DM deserves a slap from all the players for...
Forcing the Paladin to choose between what's right and what's lawful, or letting them talk to a random Commoner who turned out to be evil and stripping the Paladin's powers. Waking the Spellcasters during the night, every night, stealing their Spellbooks, Component Pouches and Holy Symbols. Giving everything with a pocket a bunch of loud objects rigged to go off if the Rogue tries stealing anything. Had a bunch of Monks ready to counter any ranged attacks. Strong winds every time the players tried to fly. Their own flying creatures in every fight so the players wouldn't be able to fight back. Forcing a Vow of Poverty Player to accept a massive amount of wealth, whether the DM lets them know or not. And making creatures immune to every single trick the party has access to.
Seriously, that whole line implies that it isn't possible to attack every turn and that the DM should allow the FB Player to get to a position better suited for dealing damage if they can't already attack.

There's literal interpretation of the rules, then there's flat out ignoring bits of them so they work your way.

I'd advise anyone to build their FB's personality around what they're threatened by, the people/creatures they hate, mistrust and fear. This works a little like the Ranger's favoured enemy list, whatever is ranked the highest on your FB's "favoured enemy" list, should be what a FB attacks first and puts in most of their effort to killing. This offers more freedom of which opponents you can attack and after each battle, depending on which enemies put up more of a fight, you can actually change your attitude toward an enemy type to modify the ranks. I'm not talking about bonuses btw, just targeting, what "the FB perceives as a foe." Oh hey, another literal interpretation of the rules that helps the player.
I'm sorry, your point is lost in that muddled list of examples. I really have no idea if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing.

Just to reiterate what I said, because I get the impression you may have misunderstood, while a frenzied berserker should be required to use his abilities as best he can to do harm to his enemies each round, he shouldn't be restricted to only the full attack, move+attack, and charge actions. Rather he should have to either use an option that fits the criteria for an attack as described under attacks that break invisibility each round, or move into a position close enough to do so if he cannot.

This thread contains a bunch of tricks that either work by RAW or are debatable enough that some DMs would let them fly.

Saying 'you can't make a playable FB if you don't allow any of the tricks that make it playable' is like saying 'a wizard can't break the game if you ban all spells'. 100% true, but completely meaningless in the context of many games.

He also, apparently, completely ignores the existence of righteous wrath. A feat that explicitly allows you to distinguish friend from foe while you're raging. You can rage and frenzy simultaneously, so by a certain interpretation it even works by RAW. Though regardless of RAW this was the feat's obvious intent. Basic rage never did have a clause about not distinguishing friend from foe as far as I can recall, so that clause in the feat almost certainly was meant for some similar ability with such a clause. So far as I know there are only two such classes. FB and berserk in deities and demigods.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

This thread contains a bunch of tricks that either work by RAW or are debatable enough that some DMs would let them fly.

Saying 'you can't make a playable FB if you don't allow any of the tricks that make it playable' is like saying 'a wizard can't break the game if you ban all spells'. 100% true, but completely meaningless in the context of many games.

You cannot control a FB without building in a weak point which will be exploited by an opponent with more intellect than a rutabaga. Sooner or later, he will either be worthless or a TPK.

Suggestion cannot cause a person to act suicidally. Every instance of Suggestion I have seen counts as such. Besides, if the FB is not immune to Mind-Affecting, then he's a walking TPK anyways, because he can be hit by a Dominate.

Every instance I've seen of 'you can control him' is either blatantly against the rules and tantamount to homebrew or munchkining or is deliberately building in a weakness which will negate the effectiveness of the character. Everything else is merely delaying the inevitable.

[Man on Fire]

@ShneekeyTheLost - You are giving up too early and completely ignoring simple ideas like building FB with High Wis/Steadfeast Determination. There is no weakness in throwing animals from Bag of Tricks at FB, being affected by Web won't make him worthles. You are operating under the assuption that there msut be weakness for FB to not kill entire party and completely ignore things that would give him srength like high Will save. Hell, youre completely ignoring posisbility of having high Will save.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

@ShneekeyTheLost - You are giving up too early and completely ignoring simple ideas like building FB with High Wis/Steadfeast Determination. There is no weakness in throwing animals from Bag of Tricks at FB, being affected by Web won't make him worthles. You are operating under the assuption that there msut be weakness for FB to not kill entire party and completely ignore things that would give him srength like high Will save. Hell, youre completely ignoring posisbility of having high Will save.

High will save merely reduces the chance of a TPK and only delays the inevitable. Sooner or later, he will roll a natural 1, or a string of natural 1's if you take the Exalted Feat, and wipe the party.

Think for a moment, you have a 5% chance of a TPK every encounter. How many encounters do you plan on being in with him? More than 20? You got even odds of being TPK'd by friendly fire. By those odds, he's more dangerous to your party than a CR + 4 encounter.

Bag of Tricks won't even register as a threat to a FB. A squirrel is not a threat.

[LordBlades]

Every instance I've seen of 'you can control him' is either blatantly against the rules and tantamount to homebrew or munchkining

Which one is exactly against the rules?
Also, what you think it's munchkining might be perfectly reasonable in another game.

Also, if he only fails on a natural one (or 2 natural ones in a row with reroll) he merely kills one guy. Next round he most likely makes save to end Frenzy(4 natural ones in a row has a 1/16000 chance of occuring). Not to mention past level 7(or 9 if you don't have a druid) death from damage is merely a small inconvenience thanks to Last Breath/Revivify.

EDIT: The FB must 'attack the nearest creature' not the nearest threat. Bag of Tricks works.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Which is exactly against the rules?
Also, what you think it's munchkining might be perfectly reasonable in another game.

Also, if he only fails on a natural one (or 2 natural ones in a row with reroll) he merely kills one guy. Next round he most likely makes save to end Frenzy(4 natural ones in a row has a 1/16000 chance of occuring). Not to mention past level 7(or 9 if you don't have a druid) death from damage is merely a small inconvenience.

Hooray for taking partial quotes out of context! The actual quote is:


Every instance I've seen of 'you can control him' is either blatantly against the rules and tantamount to homebrew or munchkining or is deliberately building in a weakness which will negate the effectiveness of the character. Everything else is merely delaying the inevitable.

Homebrew/Munchkining:

Suggestion to tell him to fall asleep and/or curl up into fetal position.

Deliberately building in weakness:

Denying him immunity to mind-affecting or denying him flight.

Delaying the inevitable:

Anything involving boosting your Will save.

I'm also assuming your Frenzied Berserker is capable of hitting more than one target in a round, since that's kind of his job. Otherwise, you just continue on as though he isn't there since he won't affect the outcome of a fight either way.

Most FB are built with Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, and Pounce from Spirit Lion Totem. He jumps into the middle of the party, and kills everyone off with one hit each, since he's doing some 300+ damage per swing.

[LordBlades]

Hooray for taking partial quotes out of context! The actual quote is:



Homebrew/Munchkining:

Suggestion to tell him to fall asleep and/or curl up into fetal position.

Deliberately building in weakness:

Denying him immunity to mind-affecting or denying him flight.

Delaying the inevitable:

Anything involving boosting your Will save.

I'm also assuming your Frenzied Berserker is capable of hitting more than one target in a round, since that's kind of his job. Otherwise, you just continue on as though he isn't there since he won't affect the outcome of a fight either way.

Most FB are built with Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, and Pounce from Spirit Lion Totem. He jumps into the middle of the party, and kills everyone off with one hit each, since he's doing some 300+ damage per swing.

How on earth is 'if x happens do y' homebrewing/munchkining since it' clearly spelled in the spell description? Fall asleep might not be the best choice, but the possibility is there.

Secondly, if the whole party is clustered in the reach of a melee character, they deserve to die.

Ultimately, I wasn't trying to take your quote out of context, merely quoted what was unclear to me since the built-in weakness was pretty self explanatory

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hooray for taking partial quotes out of context! The actual quote is:



Homebrew/Munchkining:

Suggestion to tell him to fall asleep and/or curl up into fetal position.

Deliberately building in weakness:

Denying him immunity to mind-affecting or denying him flight.

Delaying the inevitable:

Anything involving boosting your Will save.

I'm also assuming your Frenzied Berserker is capable of hitting more than one target in a round, since that's kind of his job. Otherwise, you just continue on as though he isn't there since he won't affect the outcome of a fight either way.

Most FB are built with Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, and Pounce from Spirit Lion Totem. He jumps into the middle of the party, and kills everyone off with one hit each, since he's doing some 300+ damage per swing.

A) you're still ignoring the fact that Steadfast determination eliminates natural ones, meaning he can get his will save up to guaranteed to make the save. Not practically guaranteed, but literally having no chance at failing the save unless his save is debuffed from +17 on.

B) Righteous Wrath still makes the save unecessary by giving him the option to simply not attack his allies.

C) Why is the party all clustered together like that? At the very least the wizard should be hanging back away from the group, the rogue and cleric might be together though, provided the rogue was flanking with him instead of the FB. If not, then you've got 3 targets spread across a battlefield. Nevermind that if there's another fighter type in the party he can take elusive target to get the FB's damage way, way down by ignoring the PA bonus.

D) You're not assuming just FB but optimized ubercharger FB. The FB is getting more than enough damage without charging to take out enemies in fairly short order. Even just leaving off pounce and limiting himself to single targets is more scaling back to avoid excess and mitigate the danger he poses to his allies than self-crippling.

Even ignoring all of that, you haven't shown the FB to be unplayable. Given a large enough sample of rolls any character is going to fail spectacularly eventually. The wizard's save-or-x will be saved against, or an enemy will roll nothing but natural 20's on an attack and 100's on the miss chance. Chance is an element of the game that very nearly can't be eliminated. Dismissing any class because a class feature can fail spectacularly is absurd.

[Threadnaught]

I'm sorry, your point is lost in that muddled list of examples. I really have no idea if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing.

A DM who doesn't allow a FB to spend any time not attacking anything because there aren't any opponents in range, is either guilty of misreading the rules for the class, or is the kind of DM who pulls out all the dirty tricks against their players. Challenging the players is one thing, it's fine in most cases, but these dirty tricks are basically the DM saying "you can't do that" whenever the Wizard tries to cast a prepared Spell, just because it doesn't fit the DM's agenda.

The bit at the end about "favoured enemies" for FBs, is kinda like a Wizard/Cleric/Druid's Spell loadout. You roleplay and pick a bunch of targets your FB hates the most and is most likely to attack at any given time. Only, instead of chaning it at the start of every new day, think about which enemies have been causing you problems. They're the "perceived foes."


Wow, I really condensed my entire post into that? Sorry about that, I sometimes lose myself when typing and just like the sound of my keyboard. :smallredface:

[Rejakor]

That Exalted feat's wording pretty much does make FBs playable, as long as you can maintain the Exaltedness. It is trying to be a RP thing but is actually a rules thing, by RAW, so as long as you are in a range you can differentiate friend from foe, do non-lethal damage, or 'stop your attacks to show mercy'.

So while you may be compelled to attack the nearest creature by the frenzy, you can stop your attacks to show mercy which just leads to wasting actions until you eventually snap out of it.


Also Steadfast Determination + enough will save to hit DC 20 does stop frenzy if you roll for breaking frenzy before you take your turn (damage can still send you frenzied).


It's not a NPC class, either. You can still pick targets the way a normal fighter would. Nothing stopping you from doing that. You still decide when and where to rage/frenzy like a normal barbarian would - nothing changes with that either.

[Ulm11]

The entry of Frenzy in the Frenzied Berserker actually supports the idea that the bag of tricks works. For once all the enemies are killed the Frenzied Berserker must attack the nearest creature. Frenzy doesn't mean that when active a character will do their best to slaughter their allies the moment the last enemy is dead, instead they will kill the nearest enemy to them, hence the hapless animal that's standing just behind the berserker. Also, there is nothing stopping a player from ending the frenzy early, as in when most of the foes are dead and the offensive boost that frenzy gives a character is no longer needed.

I just want to clarify something about the definition of munchkin. Would you classify a wizard who used one o f the various tricks to protect their spell book, for example using magic tattoos a munchkin as well?

[Deadline]

A) you're still ignoring the fact that Steadfast determination eliminates natural ones, meaning he can get his will save up to guaranteed to make the save. Not practically guaranteed, but literally having no chance at failing the save unless his save is debuffed from +17 on.

Unless there's an errata, Steadfast Determination doesn't work like you appear to be thinking. It only eliminates the failure on a natural one for Fortitude saves, not Will saves. Adding your Con mod to your Will save doesn't change the type of save.

[Rejakor]

There are relatively cheap magic items that give you rerolls on saving throws - they are actually pretty decent to buy anyway.

That pushes the chance of multiple natural 1's way down.

Doesn't make it completely unlikely, but if you're relatively circumspect with WHEN you frenzy, it still makes it a very small chance that you're going to murder party members over the course of a campaign.

[LordBlades]

There are relatively cheap magic items that give you rerolls on saving throws - they are actually pretty decent to buy anyway.

That pushes the chance of multiple natural 1's way down.

Doesn't make it completely unlikely, but if you're relatively circumspect with WHEN you frenzy, it still makes it a very small chance that you're going to murder party members over the course of a campaign.

Assuming a FB only fails on a natural 1 and has 1-2 rerolls, the chance of dying from a failed save vs. frenzy is probably noticeable smaller than the chance of dying from a failed save on a SoD that you might encounter in combat.(assuming you don't have a completely IP proof character).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unless there's an errata, Steadfast Determination doesn't work like you appear to be thinking. It only eliminates the failure on a natural one for Fortitude saves, not Will saves. Adding your Con mod to your Will save doesn't change the type of save.

Yeah, that's my bad. I had been up for about 30 hours straight when I typed that. I got the rest right didn't I? (not sarcasm)

[Tvtyrant]

You know, you can simply put contingencies on the FB. Put a Calm Emotions spell contingency, or a force cage or even a teleport spell. Place a couple different disarm functions set to go off if the others have been used up/failed to work and you are golden.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You know, you can simply put contingencies on the FB. Put a Calm Emotions spell contingency, or a force cage or even a teleport spell. Place a couple different disarm functions set to go off if the others have been used up/failed to work and you are golden.

That's not as easy as it sounds. Contingency is a personal spell, so you have to find away around that. Craft contingent spell handles it nicely, but it's generally regarded as a completely unusably overpowered feat. If the FB can activate a couple of scrolls he's good, but that's an odd thing for a FB to be able to do.

[Tvtyrant]

That's not as easy as it sounds. Contingency is a personal spell, so you have to find away around that. Craft contingent spell handles it nicely, but it's generally regarded as a completely unusably overpowered feat. If the FB can activate a couple of scrolls he's good, but that's an odd thing for a FB to be able to do.

Craft contingency is OP if you use it in an OP way (nested AMFs, etc), using it for Calm Emotions is not such a way. And you can always hire out the services of some NPC wizard to get them.

[Darrin]

That's not as easy as it sounds. Contingency is a personal spell, so you have to find away around that.

Craft Skull Talisman (Frostburn) or Greater Glyph Seal (MIC) might work better there.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Craft contingency is OP if you use it in an OP way (nested AMFs, etc), using it for Calm Emotions is not such a way. And you can always hire out the services of some NPC wizard to get them.
That's true as far as it goes, but the existence of those OP options often gets the feat banned.

Craft Skull Talisman (Frostburn) or Greater Glyph Seal (MIC) might work better there.

These however seem like fine options, though again there's the matter of getting them into your game. It's cold outside is often derided; see the unnofficial title I just used*; or unavailable.

The greater glyph seal is probably a "go" though.

*Don't get me wrong. The five books that make up the environment series are some of my favorites, but others may think less of them and/or not own them.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You know, you can simply put contingencies on the FB. Put a Calm Emotions spell contingency, or a force cage or even a teleport spell. Place a couple different disarm functions set to go off if the others have been used up/failed to work and you are golden.

Problem: If you are boosting your Barbarian's Will save so the odds of his going ballistic on everyone is reduced, then your contingency may well get resisted as well, with a result of having at least one character in the party (but probably most of them) be a greasy smear.

And again, you are merely reducing the odds, not eliminating them.

Remember boys and girls... this chance is something that comes up literally every encounter. How many of those do you intend to see? Remember, more encounters means more loot means being higher up on the WBL chart, as well as the XP chart. And if there's a FB in the party... it also means a chance of a TPK, just for having the encounter and having the FB go off so he can do his thang (and if he doesn't, why is he in the PrC in the FIRST place?).

Sure, there's things you can do to reduce the odds. Give him a second chance at the roll. One in four hundred sounds pretty safe, right? But yanno what? The more encounters you have... the more likely it is that at least one of them is the lucky number. The more you gotta wonder... how long until he goes off and kills us all?

FB is a ticking time bomb. Slowing down the ticker doesn't mean turning it off. And when it goes off... everyone but the FB and probably the Wizard dies.

No other class (except MAYBE the Forsaker from 3.0) has Table Drama as a class feature like this class has. And it really has nothing important to show for itself. Straight Barbarian is no less powerful. After all, dead is dead, and you're killing things in one hit just with the prerequisites to ENTER the class.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Problem: If you are boosting your Barbarian's Will save so the odds of his going ballistic on everyone is reduced, then your contingency may well get resisted as well, with a result of having at least one character in the party (but probably most of them) be a greasy smear.

And again, you are merely reducing the odds, not eliminating them.

Remember boys and girls... this chance is something that comes up literally every encounter. How many of those do you intend to see? Remember, more encounters means more loot means being higher up on the WBL chart, as well as the XP chart. And if there's a FB in the party... it also means a chance of a TPK, just for having the encounter and having the FB go off so he can do his thang (and if he doesn't, why is he in the PrC in the FIRST place?).

Sure, there's things you can do to reduce the odds. Give him a second chance at the roll. One in four hundred sounds pretty safe, right? But yanno what? The more encounters you have... the more likely it is that at least one of them is the lucky number. The more you gotta wonder... how long until he goes off and kills us all?

FB is a ticking time bomb. Slowing down the ticker doesn't mean turning it off. And when it goes off... everyone but the FB and probably the Wizard dies.

No other class (except MAYBE the Forsaker from 3.0) has Table Drama as a class feature like this class has. And it really has nothing important to show for itself. Straight Barbarian is no less powerful. After all, dead is dead, and you're killing things in one hit just with the prerequisites to ENTER the class.

A) 169 encounters from entering FB will get you to 20 from the time you enter FB going by the 13 encounters per level rule. At 1:400 odds, that's less than even odds of -ever- flipping out on the party. EDIT: upon crunching the numbers, it's actually just over 1:3 that he'll ever flip out on the party at 34.5%.

B) You're -still- ignoring the fact that a single feat, exalted though it may be, gets you out of attacking the party at all. Though I suppose I can understand since it renders your whole argument moot.

C) It's not polite to talk down to people.

D) Even if those odds weren't pitifully slim, the fact is that there's always a chance that the dice gods will stick up their middle fingers and shout "screw you!" regardless of class.

I'm not denying that a poorly built FB is going to cause problems or that it'll suck -if- he loses control of his frenzy, but to say that it's completely unusable because of chance is ultimately saying that there's no class worth playing at all. Chance screws everbody eventually.

[Tvtyrant]

Problem: If you are boosting your Barbarian's Will save so the odds of his going ballistic on everyone is reduced, then your contingency may well get resisted as well, with a result of having at least one character in the party (but probably most of them) be a greasy smear.

And again, you are merely reducing the odds, not eliminating them.

Remember boys and girls... this chance is something that comes up literally every encounter. How many of those do you intend to see? Remember, more encounters means more loot means being higher up on the WBL chart, as well as the XP chart. And if there's a FB in the party... it also means a chance of a TPK, just for having the encounter and having the FB go off so he can do his thang (and if he doesn't, why is he in the PrC in the FIRST place?).

Sure, there's things you can do to reduce the odds. Give him a second chance at the roll. One in four hundred sounds pretty safe, right? But yanno what? The more encounters you have... the more likely it is that at least one of them is the lucky number. The more you gotta wonder... how long until he goes off and kills us all?

FB is a ticking time bomb. Slowing down the ticker doesn't mean turning it off. And when it goes off... everyone but the FB and probably the Wizard dies.

No other class (except MAYBE the Forsaker from 3.0) has Table Drama as a class feature like this class has. And it really has nothing important to show for itself. Straight Barbarian is no less powerful. After all, dead is dead, and you're killing things in one hit just with the prerequisites to ENTER the class.
Forcecage has a 100% success rate against a FB (it can't get out, as it cannot use any teleport abilities while raging), as does Maze, and Irresistible Dance (though that one is short enough I doubt its usefulness). As long as you are prepared and the person playing the FB is willing to pay for said countermeasures I see no problems.

And if it was 1 in 400 chances are it will never happen, as the XP chart sets the game up to have 260 encounters before epic.

[Medic!]

This might be way out of left field, and has probably been brought up and shot down before, but...

It would obviously take burning a few feats and a higher level build (I'm way too fried from work to pretend to stack up levels and count initiator levels vs feat availability), but you could just take he Aura of Perfect Order stance from ToB, get your will save to a +9, and call it a day.


But Medic! That stance has the [Law] descriptor and FBs have to be non-lawful! This is true, but there is nothing in the stance's description that says you have to be a Lawful character to use it, and nothing in the FB description saying he can't use [Law]. As a player I would make the arguement that being non-lawful means you don't always follow the rules, and sometimes that means doing something lawful, sometimes it means being Wacky McWackypants.

Idk, am I on to something here? Or am I (for the 34th time) missing some tiny crucial detail? I know Aura of Perfect Order isn't available to a non-lawful Crusader but someone else......?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Forcecage has a 100% success rate against a FB (it can't get out, as it cannot use any teleport abilities while raging), as does Maze, and Irresistible Dance (though that one is short enough I doubt its usefulness). As long as you are prepared and the person playing the FB is willing to pay for said countermeasures I see no problems.

And if it was 1 in 400 chances are it will never happen, as the XP chart sets the game up to have 260 encounters before epic.

How are you going to get your Forcecage off before everyone is a greasy smear? He makes his Will save at the beginning of his turn. If he fails, he Ginsu's the party before anyone can take an action. Is the Wizard really going to blow his Contingency on 'If the FB attacks any of the party members, then Celerity so I can deal with it'? That might work... although if someone is already within his reach, if he's used size augmentation, you might not be able to save people already within reach since you had to go with the bars rather than the solid wall to contain him.

Of course, this means now the whole PARTY has to Optimize just to NOT BE KILLED BY THEIR OWN PARTY MEMBER. You now have to devote limited resources (only one contingency at a time) just to be sure you don't get PK'd. Please tell me where this is not fail?

And what do you get out of it as a result?

Supreme Cleave. Oh joy, if you haven't already used your 5' step, you can use it after a Cleave. There's much better ways to do this.

Deathless Frenzy. If this ever comes up, you did something wrong anyways.

Inspire Frenzy! Oh joy, now you have MORE people trying to kill other party members if they blow their save! Isn't THAT wonderful...

Greater Frenzy! You deal an extra 3 damage from your strength boosts. Oh, times 5 from your multipliers if you try to actually make PA and charging a Thing. 15 bonus damage a swing. When you are already insta-gibbing everything.

Supreme Power Attack!! This is why most people pick up the PrC. It's the capstone of the class. You're still already killing everything in one hit already, so extra damage is extra pointless.

So net result:

* A lot of bonus damage you don't need

* Chance of wiping the party

* The ability to give other party members a chance to try and kill other party members

Ummm... yea, I'm not seeing it. Sorry.

[Tvtyrant]

Ummm... yea, I'm not seeing it. Sorry.
You craft the contingency onto the FB, and have it be "when it fails its will save against..." Now the problem is solved, and you just need to add some more when that set is up. Have the FB pay for the contingencies out of pocket and you have lost nothing, none of the other members even need to care.

And you don't have to. No one is making you play one.

[Rejakor]

1. I don't know what kind of games you play in, but looking at CR/level, there are lots of encounters a regular charger (Leap Attack Shock Trooper - not counting battle jump or valorous because those are a) from obscure sources and b) often seen as cheese by DMs (don't ask me why)) has trouble one-hitting, either due to miss chances lowering his DPR or through multiple lower-CR monsters that still have their own massive wells of hitpoints - frenzied berserker is actually the tipping point for wiping out encounters in one charge - which is why you HAVE HIM AROUND. There is NO POINT having a charger that can't one-hit any encounter that can be charged. That is the POINT of chargers.

2. You can give a FB up to 3 rerolls without particularly denting level 7 WBL. At higher WBLs, you can afford as many rerolls as you want.

3. There are many spells that can slow or stop a FB's charge/attack - Blockade, that beguiler movement stopping thing, Solid Fog, etc. If the party knows that the FB 'can't stop' the music sometimes when combat is done, they can plan around this, such as a readied action for if the FB charges them to plop a solid fog on him, or in some other way ruin his charge.

4. If there is a tripper in the group, odds are, it can trip the FB despite his massive str score. A tripped FB outside his reach is much less dangerous. Especially if you allow that 'tripping in the air' rule to apply to a flying FB.

5. That Exalted feat works just fine.

6. Basic tactical planning can help keep everyone safe if the FB goes and fights the foe that will last the longest or a split off foe from the rest of the party - part of the reason to have a charger is they work nearly as well on their own as with a party, after all.

7. Roleplaying factors. It's great to say 'oh, my barbarian froths at the mouth and goes into an apoplectic battle rage' but the FB actually has mechanics that support the whole berserking thing - if you really are trying not to hurt your party members but there's still a chance you will, that's much more awesome for roleplaying a guy struggling to control his inner battle rage than having no mechanical effect of it whatsoever.

[Fable Wright]

Homebrew/Munchkining:

Suggestion to tell him to fall asleep and/or curl up into fetal position.


:smallconfused: Could you please point out how this is Homebrew/Munchkining? It's using a spell in a nonstandard way, yes, but it's certainly not homebrew (being RAW legal and all), and Munchkining (while being an extremely vaguely defined term) has been used in similar contexts to mean ignoring rules to the benefit of a character. Could you please explain how using Suggestion as a safety net qualifies as either of these?

[Man on Fire]

You know, you can simply put contingencies on the FB. Put a Calm Emotions spell contingency, or a force cage or even a teleport spell. Place a couple different disarm functions set to go off if the others have been used up/failed to work and you are golden.

A funny idea just jumped into my mind. Party scouts the dungeon ahead, then FB enters first room with enemies, kills them and wizard immiediately teleports him to next room.

Also, Shneekey - I would liek to point out that FB isn't very likely to have very high initiative, just deal with him before his turn starts, using Web or something, and once he will calm down you can let him go. Also, you are still forgetting that party shouldn't be standing in one group during the combat, especially with FB - he runs foward and slashes on his enemies, rest of the party scatters around. It's actually saving my party in PbP game I'm in, Fmy FB needs to run from one group to another and actually wasted a turn just charging at friendly NPCs without reacing them.

And you still ignored quite easy possibility - have FB and Wizard take one-level dip into Thayan Knight and Red Wizard of Thay respectively - from now on FB automatically fails any Will save against Wizard, which means wizard WILL calm him down if he turns on the party and can just cast his own spells to take control over him if anybody else does.

And high Will save means that a chnace you will need party to enchant you are quite low. And your math may sounds scary, but honestly - probability that you will fail the save remains the same, get yourself an item to reroll natural 1 and, with good feats, you will be fine, because probability that you'll get natural 1 two times in a row ain't very high.

And finally, I think you are missing some specific aspect of games liek D&D - they are about cooperation and helping each other, PCs are supposed to support and complement each other. It's very in spirit of roleplaing to have party finds a way to stop FB from killing them, that's the best thing about this class.

Another option, that is fun to roleplay - have another meele fighter, Warblade or Dwarven Defender for example, who goes with FB into the battle and if FB turns on the party, he fights him until he's okay. Risky but if you're playing somebody strong and mean, you should be fine. And think about roleplaying possibilities - strong bond the two must share etc.

[Deadline]

Yeah, that's my bad. I had been up for about 30 hours straight when I typed that. I got the rest right didn't I? (not sarcasm)

No problem, its just something I've seen a few people here mention and I thought I should double check that I was reading it right. As far your point B, I can't really comment because I hate the BoED and BoVD with a passion (I think they are incredibly poor sourcebooks, the uses for the Diplomacy skill in BoED being one of the worst offenders).

As far as ways to mitigate killing your own party members, there's always the option of wandering off every morning to use up all your Frenzy uses for the day. That keeps your party safe and sound.

Personally, I'm not sure I'd even bother playing a FB without expression consent by my fellow players, as it does impose a special inconvenience on their part. There are a few classes like that (the Forsaker is another, I think), and I'd check with my group if I ever wanted to try one.

[Xodion]

Another option, that is fun to roleplay - have another meele fighter, Warblade or Dwarven Defender for example, who goes with FB into the battle and if FB turns on the party, he fights him until he's okay. Risky but if you're playing somebody strong and mean, you should be fine. And think about roleplaying possibilities - strong bond the two must share etc.

This is how we dealt with our FB - I was basically the tank in that game, focusing on AC instead of attacks and damage, and would follow him around everywhere. He didn't have Pounce until quite late on* so most times he failed the save (frequently) I could lure him around and only let him get the one attack off. The best cinematic/roleplaying moment was when we were defending a large crowd of civilians, and he failed the save right in the middle of them, so I had to stand next to him and take the attacks - the one 20 he rolled took ~80-90% of my health away, but we survived without murdering everyone or indeed anyone except the bad guys :smallsmile:


*He was the newest player and didn't have the same op-fu some of us had, and we did just fine without it anyway.