Confused about SwordSage Feat Choices

[silverwolfer]

so am making a level one Hadozee SwordSage

I am somewhat confused, on all the suggestions for shadow strike for level one, as if shadow hand, is the only move tree you should use?

[HunterColt22]

It isn't but it is the maneuver tree that swordsage gets one, exclusive access to without a feat tax, two gives some wonderful maneuvers to use in and out of combat, it also synergies better with your higher than average WIS score that you should be carrying around, and three, it allows you to get both DEX and STR. Plus, who doesn't want to scream out a twenty syllable attack name at least once at the table. :smallamused:

To get the DEX and STR, look below for his feat which I am guessing you meant as well. The class and that school just lends itself to stealth better than most. Also who doesn't want, if you are really silly, three 50ft teleports at will with use limit while outside of combat. Again this is very silly considering the prowess a smart pick of maneuvers, strikes and boosts can get you but again, infinite teleports at low levels, makes the spellcaster jealous.

[tyckspoon]

I assume you mean Shadow Blade? It's a solid option. It's not the *only* option, but it's a pretty good one; it adds significant punch to the damage output of a Dex-based build, which can otherwise struggle with unreliable sources of damage, and Shadow Hand has several good stances so it's not a huge sacrifice to use one of them as your default. Again, you *can* do other things with a Swordsage, but the class does lend itself to a Dex-based rogue/monk/other agile/finesse-y style, and for those concepts you do want Shadow Blade.

[silverwolfer]

Will this be relying on me going unarmed sword sage, or is it better to pull this off with light armor and the other avabile weapons.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You can go dual daggers or even THF with a Spiked chain (though you do need the EWP feat) and still benefit from Shadow Blade.

[silverwolfer]

Hmmm Flaw for spiked chain feat?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I am fond of vulnerable, a -1 to AC is not that noticeable and swordsages have tons of ways to make up for it, Wis to AC, light armour proficiency which includes dastan and chair-ana, native access to both Greater Invisibility and miss chances as early as level 3, ways of simply saying no , ( (baffling defence), etc.

Weak Will and the like too, since they can make up with Diamond mind maneuvers.

[HunterColt22]

Just as an FYI if you go for Spiked chain, which is leading me to believe you are heading for a possible tripping build, be sure to grab Assassin stance as one of your stances as a Swordsage.

[eggs]

Unarmed Swordsage isn't that great (no 2-handed bonus on maneuvers, enhancing the weapon eats an item slot, materials from a fairly obscure and notoriously poorly balanced splatbook are needed to keep weapon enhancement prices reasonable, no weapon qualities like reach or droppability in a trip, etc.), and has the usual problems of Adaption-section acceptability.

Shadow Blade and Adaptive Style are notable for being feats that are fairly specifically useful to a Swordsage, but that doesn't mean they're the best feats around.

Normally you can also get good use out of skillmonkey feats like Darkstalker and Able Learner, ubiquitously useful feats like Quck Recovery, Shape Soulmeld/Open Chakra, Martial Study (esp. for White Raven Tactics to offset the still-considerable action cost of Adaptive Style recovery) or fighting style-dependent feats like Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes and associated lockdown feats, TWF or multiattack for Tiger Claw/Desert Wind-focused Swordsages, or prerequisite feats if you want to dip into something like Shiba Protector/Nentyar Hunter/Shadowlord/whatever the cool swordsages are PrCing into these days.

[Keld Denar]

Note that EWP requires a BAB of +1, so you can't start play with it as a level 1 character.

[Krazzman]

Furthermore I, in my opinion think that Adaptive Style is the Go-To Feat for a first level Swordsage.

Effective stuff would be TWFing Daggers (a Weapon that is on both lists of Shadowhand AND Tigerclaw), Spiked Chain tripping or general THFing/sword-torching.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Every swordsage needs adaptive style. You just do. Their recovery system is horrid, and you WILL run out. Especially at low levels. Just think - you start off with only one more maneuver readied than a warblade and one less than a crusader, and both of them can recover all maneuvers, in either no action or barely any action.

Compound that with the fact that swordsage's maneuver sets are much more laiden with boosts and counters (which you can use the same turn as a strike), and...I reiterate. You will run out of maneuvers. Nearly every combat. I say this from experience, having played several swordsages...

Adaptive Style. All the way.

[ThiagoMartell]

FIVE SHADOW CREEPING ICE ENERVATION STRIKE!
- The real reason for a Shadow Hand focus on any Swordsage

[only1doug]

Every swordsage needs adaptive style. You just do. Their recovery system is horrid, and you WILL run out. Especially at low levels. Just think - you start off with only one more maneuver readied than a warblade and one less than a crusader, and both of them can recover all maneuvers, in either no action or barely any action.

Compound that with the fact that swordsage's maneuver sets are much more laiden with boosts and counters (which you can use the same turn as a strike), and...I reiterate. You will run out of maneuvers. Nearly every combat. I say this from experience, having played several swordsages...

Adaptive Style. All the way.

I have to agree, I played a L3 swordsage and ran out of manuevers in 2 rounds, Adaptive style is essential!

[Darrin]

so am making a level one Hadozee SwordSage


Note: Hadozee get Dodge as a bonus feat. For some reason, this was clipped off or accidentally left out of the racial description on page 41, but it's listed in their Monster entry on pages 151-152.



I am somewhat confused, on all the suggestions for shadow strike for level one, as if shadow hand, is the only move tree you should use?

Shadow Hand has some great mobility/utility maneuvers (notably the Shadow Jaunt/Step/Blink maneuvers), but other than a couple exceptions, the strikes are kinda meh or rely too heavily on a failed save. Most Swordsages tend to rely on Diamond Mind (with maybe a little Tiger Claw) for strikes.


Will this be relying on me going unarmed sword sage, or is it better to pull this off with light armor and the other avabile weapons.

If you're using the Unarmed Swordsage variant, you may need to ask your DM to clarify how he thinks the AC Bonus should work. However, I think most Unarmed Swordsages wind up wearing light armor with an Armor Check Penalty of 0, which means no penalty if you're not proficient with it.


Hmmm Flaw for spiked chain feat?

If you want two-handed Power Attack damage, then it's probably better to just stick with a greatsword or some other two-handed martial weapon. The only reason to pick up EWP:spiked chain might be if you're trying to do a Tripper build (kind of unnecessary with Setting Sun throws available) or a Shadow Blade build. But the typical Shadow Blade build is usually TWF with shortswords, maybe switching to daggers later if you're going into Bloodclaw Master. Typical feats might look something like:

1) TWF, Human = Shadow Blade
3) Weapon Finesse
6) Adaptive Style
9) Improved TWF or Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer)

I'm not quite so adamant on getting Adaptive Style so early, particularly on a TWF build that relies on boosts/counters more than it does on standard-action strikes. In the early levels, combat tends to be short enough that you don't need to refresh so often.

You can skip Weapon Finesse if you can get your hands on a pair of light feycraft weapons (DMGII p. 275). If you can also get ahold of a pair of Gloves of the Balanced Hand (8000 GP, MIC), you can skip Improved TWF. Staggering Strike assumes you pick up Assassin's Stance at Swordsage 5. You could possibly pick up Craven there instead. Assuming Feycraft + Gloves of the Balanced Hand were available, then your feats might look something like:

1) TWF, Human = Shadow Blade
3) Adaptive Style
6) Craven (Champions of Ruin)
9) Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer)

As you may have noticed, you don't have nearly enough feat slots for what you want/need. A dip into Fighter, Swashbuckler, or Ranger is worth considering to pick up some bonus feats. A Barbarian 2 dip to pick up Whirling Frenzy (Unearthed Arcana), Improved Trip (Wolf Totem, Unearthed Arcana), and/or Pounce (Spirit Lion Totem, Complete Champion) could also help quite a bit (you can even combine all three). You lose out on the Swordsage capstone, but at level 20, two boosts per round isn't exactly world-shattering.

If you're inclined toward the Unarmed variant, then you can still TWF with unarmed strikes, but you're probably going to want to take Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick instead:

1) TWF, Human = Shadow Blade
3) Adaptive Style
6) Superior Unarmed Strike
9) Snap Kick

From there, I like to work towards Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook), but it requires Combat Reflexes, TWF, and Imp. TWF as prereqs. If you still have feats left over, Robilar's Gambit and then maybe Greater TWF to finish off.

[Amnoriath]

As many here had said Adaptive style is a must plus it allows to take full advantage of the strengths it has over its Full BAB counterparts. However shadow blade isn't necessary unarmed swordsages lend themselves well for Setting Sun in which then you want to be big which makes that feat pointless.

[Rejakor]

If you take TWF and Shadow Hand as your first level feats as a human swordsage, with 16 str and 16 dex, you get +6 damage per attack and 2 attacks. Which is nice.

It also synergizes with the best swordsage boost from level 1 to about 8 - Burning Blade. Nova Damage is where it's at, and a first level swordsage attacking on the first round of combat for 1d6+6+1d6+1 twice is pretty terrifying. Combine with Hatchling's Flame for dealing with hordes, and you're a pretty fantastic glass cannon.

[Darrin]

If you take TWF and Shadow Hand as your first level feats as a human swordsage, with 16 str and 16 dex, you get +6 damage per attack and 2 attacks. Which is nice.

Ack! Forgot the OP said "Hadozee", which means no human bonus feat.

My advice, then:

1) Shadow Blade, Hadozee = Dodge
3) TWF
6) Adaptive Style
9) Staggering Strike

If flaws and feycraft shortswords are available, then I'd suggest:

1) Shadow Blade, Hadozee = Dodge, Flaw1 = TWF, Flaw2 = Combat Reflexes
3) Adaptive Style
6) Craven
9) Staggering Strike

If Unarmed:

1) IUS, Shadow Blade, Hadozee = Dodge, Flaw1 = TWF, Flaw2 = Combat Reflexes
3) Adaptive Style
6) Superior Unarmed Strike
9) Snap Kick

Suggested flaws: Shaky (-2 to ranged attacks), Inattentive (-4 to Listen/Spot checks) or Poor Reflexes (your Ref save will probably be your highest, and you eventually get Evasion/Improved Evasion).

[Keld Denar]

Since you already have dodge as a bonus feast, get mobility enchanted on your armor asap. That qualifies you for the Elusive Target tactical feat in Comp Warrior. Its pretty amazing.

[Telok]

For a first level feat Extra Readied Maneuver is good, I'm surprised that nobody mentioned it yet.

The Shadow Blade feat is good if you have a high Dex (pure swordsage should) and plan on spending lots of time in Shadow Hand stances.

Talk to your DM about Adaptive style. The feat does not say that it refreshes your maneuvers as a swordsage, that is a popular interpretation of the feat's mechanical actions.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Talk to your DM about Adaptive style. The feat does not say that it refreshes your maneuvers as a swordsage, that is a popular interpretation of the feat's mechanical actions.

It's the only logical interpretation.

When you spend 5 minutes or whatever practicing maneuvers without the feat, they are not readied? Even though by the rules just spending that time sitting on your butt causes maneuvers to become re-readied?

Ask the DM if you want, but if he sees things any different than RAW (and how cust. serv ruled on it, too), then what he's really saying is "don't play a swordsage."

I really cannot understate how important that feat is, working as written and intended, for the swordsage to function. Or at least, to function on anywhere near the level of the other classes in ToB. If "better than a monk 20" is your tolerance level, I suppose it still works out...

[Telok]

Ask the DM if you want, but if he sees things any different than RAW (and how cust. serv ruled on it, too), then what he's really saying is "don't play a swordsage."

The Adaptive Style feat is only two sentences long and one of those is the crusader exception.

"Benefit:You can change your readied maneuvers at any time by taking a full-round action. If you're a crusader..."

That's all it says. Having it also refresh a swordsage's maneuvers is a very popular interpretation, but not one that is stated in the feat.

[Gharkash]

It is actually the interpretation given by customer service, as mentioned above.

[Rejakor]

For a first level feat Extra Readied Maneuver is good, I'm surprised that nobody mentioned it yet.

It's not good for a swordsage compared to stuff like Adaptive Style or Shadow Blade - You can burn through three maneuvers in a turn as a swordsage. One more isn't gonna last you that long.

For a crusader or whatever it's alright because their maneuvers tend to be more meaningful and be less boosty shootey scorey.

But it's a wasted feat on an already feat-starved swordsage.

[Azoth]

A possible way to shadow blade + THF aside the Spiked chain is a Sun Blade. Try to get the no frills expedition to castle ravenloft version instead of the horrid DMG one. The main reason for this is that it is a bastard sword that can be weilded like a short sword. In its description it states that proffiency with either allows you to weild it without penalty, and for the purposes of feats and abilities (I.E. Weapon Focus short sword or Weapon Focus Bastard sword) you can apply either feat to it.

You may need DM ruling on it, but I have used it several times. Use Shadow Blade since it is treated as a short sword, and then Two Handed Power attack since it is a bastard sword.

[ThiagoMartell]

A possible way to shadow blade + THF aside the Spiked chain is a Sun Blade. Try to get the no frills expedition to castle ravenloft version instead of the horrid DMG one. The main reason for this is that it is a bastard sword that can be weilded like a short sword. In its description it states that proffiency with either allows you to weild it without penalty, and for the purposes of feats and abilities (I.E. Weapon Focus short sword or Weapon Focus Bastard sword) you can apply either feat to it.

You may need DM ruling on it, but I have used it several times. Use Shadow Blade since it is treated as a short sword, and then Two Handed Power attack since it is a bastard sword.

Actually, TWF with sun blades is better. You get the same return from Power Attack (1x on each hand, total x2) but better return with Shadow Blade (1x Dex on each hand, total x2). Unless your Strenght is a lot higher than your Dex (and on a Swordsage that's unlikely), I'd go with TWF Sunblades instead of THF. That is, if you can get the 3k version from Return to Castle Ravenloft. Otherwise, it's just too expensive.

[Rejakor]

Short swords are really not a bad option, or a spiked dooberry.

But if you have the cash, you can always make your favourite weapon into a shadow hand weapon via Aptitude.

[ThiagoMartell]

Short swords are really not a bad option, or a spiked dooberry.

But if you have the cash, you can always make your favourite weapon into a shadow hand weapon via Aptitude.

Aptitude is debatable. RAW, it only works with feats in which you designate a weapon for (such as the Weapon Focus line).

[Jerthanis]

I have to agree, I played a L3 swordsage and ran out of manuevers in 2 rounds, Adaptive style is essential!

Odd, I find the fights which take longer than 3 rounds to resolve* to be the significant outlier. As such, spending a feat on an option to give up your 3rd turn to refresh maneuvers for a 4th turn sounds like spending a feat to make yourself less effective, since the fight will be effectively over if you just take your 3rd turn, even if your operating efficiency is only 60% for that turn. Heck, the fight HAS to go on for 5+ turns for you to be more efficient with Adaptive Style, even IF you use all maneuvers in 2 turns consistently.

I played a TWF/Shadow Blade Warblade 1/Swordsage X (friggin' Weapon Finesse requiring +1 BAB!) and took Adaptive Style on the advice of the internet and never once used it in play, even when on the 3rd turn I had blown through all my maneuvers... because my full attack was still good on its own.

I would suggest AGAINST Adaptive Style unless you're consistently finding yourself in 6+ round fights and floundering without maneuvers past round 2.

*Resolve as in, be clear who is going to win, having one side mostly dead or disabled and most of the other side active and capable. Having the rest of the fight be clean up, or preventing escape.

[Rejakor]

I definitely wouldn't pick Adaptive Style first. Getting your damage output up is more important, as is defenses (Although it's too hard to get feat based defenses without a source of bonus feats, so meh).


And it does depend on the game. Games I tend to play in have large sprawling encounters where it's not just one monster in a room, kill it, end of encounter. So the ability to refresh maneuvers over what might be a 15 round encounter can be essential.

But even if you simply have a dead round between wiping out one foe and setting up to ambush the reinforcements heading in from another direction... it's still worth having.

Not to mention switching out maneuvers on the fly can be very useful if you have a broad range of them.

[only1doug]

Odd, I find the fights which take longer than 3 rounds to resolve* to be the significant outlier. As such, spending a feat on an option to give up your 3rd turn to refresh maneuvers for a 4th turn sounds like spending a feat to make yourself less effective, since the fight will be effectively over if you just take your 3rd turn, even if your operating efficiency is only 60% for that turn. Heck, the fight HAS to go on for 5+ turns for you to be more efficient with Adaptive Style, even IF you use all maneuvers in 2 turns consistently.

I played a TWF/Shadow Blade Warblade 1/Swordsage X (friggin' Weapon Finesse requiring +1 BAB!) and took Adaptive Style on the advice of the internet and never once used it in play, even when on the 3rd turn I had blown through all my maneuvers... because my full attack was still good on its own.

I would suggest AGAINST Adaptive Style unless you're consistently finding yourself in 6+ round fights and floundering without maneuvers past round 2.

*Resolve as in, be clear who is going to win, having one side mostly dead or disabled and most of the other side active and capable. Having the rest of the fight be clean up, or preventing escape.

Maybe my group is an oddity then, the only combats that have been resolved in 3 rounds were the TPK and the revenge visit. In my group 5+ round combats as more normal and 10+ aren't uncommon.