Simple gish question

[Cranthis]

So, what class is better than fighter for a gish? I am taking 4 levels of this class, and I want to know if there is anything that beats out the bonus feats.

The only requirement is the class must have full bab.

[Aegis013]

It depends on your purposes. Warblade and Crusader are better most of the time, however. But if you're really feat starved or need an extra feat to qualify for a PrC early, those Fighter levels might be invaluable.

[Cranthis]

Yeah, I'm taking flaws, so I allready get a bunch of feats, but if I do need a boost I can always take a single level of fighter. Where can I find crusader?

Edit: I found it.

[Keld Denar]

Duskblade for at least 3, for the Arcane Channeling. If you are going to gish and have higher level spells than a Duskblade normally gets, you can fling those spells with your sword.

Question is...why are you losing 4 caster levels? Your aim should be to take the bare minimum in order to get into a Gishy PrC like Abjurant Champion or Spellsword or even Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom.

[Cranthis]

Question is...why are you losing 4 caster levels? Your aim should be to take the bare minimum in order to get into a Gishy PrC like Abjurant Champion or Spellsword or even Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom.
Its going to be a gish, leaning more towards martial. Trust me, I've been over this about 400 times in a different thread haha. And I'm actually going to be doing AbjChamp and Spellsword. But what is this knight phantom, and where can I find it?

[HunterOfJello]

Its going to be a gish, leaning more towards martial. Trust me, I've been over this about 400 times in a different thread haha. And I'm actually going to be doing AbjChamp and Spellsword. But what is this knight phantom, and where can I find it?

In the book Five Nations. It's from Eberron.

[Cranthis]

In the book Five Nations. It's from Eberron.

Thank you.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, depending on alignment, Paladin or one of the alignment variants wouldn't be a bad idea, particularly if you are using Sorcerer as the casting side, since you get your casting stat to all saves. Immunity to fear, Turn Undead can be used to fuel Divine Feats.

Hexblade is also not a bad choice, being full BAB, getting Cha to all saves, Mettle, and while the fourth level is a wash, it's still not bad.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you are going for a more martial build, I can't help but suggest you to look into Suel Arcanamach (CArc), 5th level spells cha based casting, with an extremely sweet spell list (any wiz/sorc spell from the schools of Abjuration, Divination, Illusion and Transmutation IIRC).

Also I suggest the fighter dip, since most gishy prestige classes require proficiency with all weapons (including ranged) and/or proficiency with all armour types, on the same vein I discourage Barbarian since it's key feature (rage) doesn't mesh at all with casting

Edit: Hexblade 4 also gives access to the sweet sweet Dark Companion, which is a moving no-save debuff, if you are already going Hexblade there is no reason to skip dark companion since it is essentially free (even if you don't use save-or-x spells, which you most likely won't, your spellcasting companions will love you)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you are going for a more martial build, I can't help but suggest you to look into Suel Arcanamach (CArc), 5th level spells cha based casting, with an extremely sweet spell list (any wiz/sorc spell from the schools of Abjuration, Divination, Illusion and Transmutation IIRC).

Also I suggest the fighter dip, since most gishy prestige classes require proficiency with all weapons (including ranged) and/or proficiency with all armour types, on the same vein I discourage Barbarian since it's key feature (rage) doesn't mesh at all with casting

Edit: Hexblade 4 also gives access to the sweet sweet Dark Companion, which is a moving no-save debuff, if you are already going Hexblade there is no reason to skip dark companion since it is essentially free (even if you don't use save-or-x spells, which you most likely won't, your spellcasting companions will love you)

I had forgotten about Dark Companion... that would be great. I think he did specifically mention a 'gish' build, so it would be a great surprise-round debuff before he levels the spells that tells reality to sit down and shut up.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ehh I would be wary of those kind of spells, usually you don't have the saves to make it worthwhile (unless you se save and X even if you made the save spells like Orbs); but dark companion is essentially free so...

[Keld Denar]

Yea, Suel Arcanamach takes a couple levels to get off the ground, but is kinda fun and has some unique abilities. Combine 5 levels of AbjChamp with Suel1 and a Ring if Enduring Arcana, and you have nearly undispellable buffs.

I'd go Duskblade2/Paladin4/Suel4/AbjChamp5/Spellsword1/DragonDisc4. Dragon Disciple gives you 2 extra 5th level SA spell slots, which you'd normally not be able to get even if you continued to try to advance SA casting, since it is already capped.

[tyckspoon]

Also I suggest the fighter dip, since most gishy prestige classes require proficiency with all weapons (including ranged) and/or proficiency with all armour types, on the same vein I discourage Barbarian since it's key feature (rage) doesn't mesh at all with casting


Not entirely- Raging prevents you from casting a spell while raging, but it doesn't stop you from benefiting from something you cast *before* you rage.. which works fine with the sorts of buff spells and Swift-action boosters that are the staples of gishy combat tactics already. And the WhirlPounce Barbarian level is a standard of melee optimization that always has to be considered.

[Cranthis]

All of this is excellent stuff. I believe I will go Duskblade 4/ Focused specialist 2/ Abjchamp 5. The rest can be done out as I go.

[Snowbluff]

Duskblade 3, for the Arcane Channel.
Battledancer 1 for Cha to AC (Src option).
Swashbuckler 3 for Int to damage (Wiz option)
Monk 1 + Kung fu Genius (Wiz) or Ascetic Mage (Sorc) for various synergy.
Warblade 3 for Iron Heart Surge, WRT, stances, Int to Reflex and Critical Confirmation.
Crusader 3for similiar Maneuvers, Cha to Will, and Reroll a Save 1/day.
Paladin 2 for Cha to Save.
Totemist 2 (Incarnate is low BaB, the last one sucks) for Soulmelds lolololol!

Comprehensive enough?

EDIT:
Swordsage 2 for Assassin's Stance and access to Shadow Blade feat (Dex ADDED to damage)

Take the Initiator classes later for better maneuvers and stances.

Has anyone offered Swiftbalde yet? I think it's a better use for CL loss.

[Cranthis]

Try and put the benefits of that down overall, if you can, Snowbluff, I'm interested, but too busy to look up all of that.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Not entirely- Raging prevents you from casting a spell while raging, but it doesn't stop you from benefiting from something you cast *before* you rage.. which works fine with the sorts of buff spells and Swift-action boosters that are the staples of gishy combat tactics already. And the WhirlPounce Barbarian level is a standard of melee optimization that always has to be considered.

You are right on the money on the long duration buffs; but I think raging (wand whirling frenzy for that matter) would prevent some of the best swift action spells such as Whirling Blade, Wraithstrike, etc. Though I do have to agree that pounce is reason enough to strongly consider it.

[Coidzor]

If you're setting that many levels on fire you may be better off going Suel Arcanamach or Champion of Gwynharwyf.

Also, there's never a simple question when it comes to gishing, haha.

[Snowbluff]

Try and put the benefits of that down overall, if you can, Snowbluff, I'm interested, but too busy to look up all of that.

Yeah I think I can help you out.

Duskblade 3, for the Arcane Channel. Full Base Attack Bonus, plus a few spell

Battledancer (Dragon Magazine Compendium) 1 for Cha to AC while not wearing armor. Full BaB, Unarmed Damage bonus, but only 1 good save, reflex. Skill list is pretty good, though. See Monk.


Swashbuckler (CW) 3 for Int to damage. Insightful Strike only works on Weapon Finesseable weapon, but stacks with your Str to damage. Full BaB, free Weapon Finesse, and +1 to reflex when in light armor.


Monk 1 + Kung fu Genius (Int instead of Wis for Monk abilities, including AC) or Ascetic Mage (Cha to AC instead of Wis, Sorc and Monk stack for AC bonus, Arcane Strike-esgue ability). Since you don't use Armor or a Shield (You have spells for that), Int or Cha to AC is awesome.


Warblade (ToB) 3 Full BaB, Int to Reflex at level 1, Int to critical comfirmation at level 3, Uncanny Dodge at level 2

Crusader 3 (ToB) Full BaB.Cha to Will at , and Reroll a Save 1/day.

Swordsage 2. Wis to AC, variant for Improved Unarmed Strike (Maybe use Ascetic Monk), +1 to initiative, and Weapon Focus bonus. It's Maneuvers Gives access to shadow blade feat (Adds Dex to damage for certain weapon
These 3 get maneuvers, which are awesome. You count your other level as 1/2 a level in one of these for determining which maneuvers/stance you can choose. White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge are both great, as is Sapphire Nightmare Strike.

Paladin 2 for Cha to Save. Full BaB.

Totemist 2 (Incarnate is low BaB, the last one sucks) for Soulmelds lolololol! You'll need an actual giude for this, but they are versatile.

EDIT: Wow, I should write a Gish Handbook.

[Cranthis]

Oh wow. You really should write a gish handbook. Except that would take years haha.

[Randomguy]

I was going to recommend Fighter (or warblade) 1/Duskblade 3 but it looks like Snowbluff covered just about everything.

[gorfnab]

Oh wow. You really should write a gish handbook. Except that would take years haha.
The Gish Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786)

[Snowbluff]

The Gish Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786)

Huh, doesn't seem to have been updated for Minmax...

[nedz]

Huh, doesn't seem to have been updated for Minmax...

It hasn't been moved across yet.