Dragon Slaying Advice

[Archmage1]

So, I am currently playing a 3 player E6 game, and we need a solution to a Mature Adult White Dragon, which also has some extra caster levels. We have tried dealing with it twice, first using glibness to get it to go away, and the second time trying to use solid fog to hold it in place, so we could kill it. Both times ended up with us running away. I would like a plan that does not involve a plot device. Just to make it more interesting, we are in a dungeon, so we can't buy more items.
Relevant house rules: Versitile spellcaster can give access to 4th level spells.
The party consists of
A level 6 Dread necro(cha 21, dmm split ray and empower, has versatile spellcaster)
A level 6 beguiler(int 24, has versatile spellcaster)
A level rogue 1/SA fighter 1/4 sword sage
The Dread necro's familiar, who is a warforged with a magical adamantium greatsword

Does anyone have any ideas hat give us a decent chance of victory?

EDIT: Solution has been found: Summon some Allips, buff them, keep them alive, and use them to kill the dragon with wis damage.

[RFLS]

Interesting uhm....familiar.

Anyway, typical dragon fighting advice goes as follows-
Don't.
Really don't. Especially not when it's that big compared to you.
Okay, really? You're doing this?
*sigh*
They're big. Attack it from small spaces and have a way to deal with its breath weapon.
They're generally slow. Target its reflex saves and use anything you can to deny it its Dex to AC. Double points if you can name (and use) the quintessential dragon-slaying spell.
Seriously. Just don't do it.
Buff the Beguiler's DCs somehow. If you can get glitterdust and other debuffs on it, it'll go down a lot faster.
Don't EVER fight it on its home turf. You will die. Horribly.
Seriously, I recommend against this (at least at your level).

[Cranthis]

See if your dm will let you hire a level 7 spellthief. Then you have a way to deal with the dragons spells/spell like abilities, other than that, and probably with that, you are going to get pounded.

[Archmage1]

The Beguiler's DC's are as buffed as they are going to get, sadly. As far as I could find, we don't actually have any way to target the reflex saves, and no shivering touch(even if we had it, DM would probably rule that a white dragon is immune to it.

Reading your post, it seems that we will be relying on plot devices, as we can't fight it anywhere other than it's home turf(a large ice cavern), deal with the breath weapon, or buff the DC's anymore. Still, it was worth a try.

Sadly, the hiring a spellthief is a no-go, as there is, I believe one npc higher than 6 in the game, and he is... unavailable.

[Pokonic]

Can you get allies? Any local Frost Giants around you could convince by "alowing them" (killing them after the fact) to take half the hoard? Mind getting, say, a local anyone to run around and distract the beast? A mule loaded with explosives is a classic dragonslaying trick.

[Balmas]

Okay, I'll be honest. Three level six adventurers against a buffed mature white dragon will die. It's somewhat of a miracle that you haven't died already. The only way you might stand a chance is if your Dread Necro has the Shivering Touch spell. Even then, you better pray that you win initiative because once he attacks, you will all die.

[Archmage1]

Sadly, we already killed the frost giants(was a good idea at the time, got 5k xp out of it, but we are in a dungeon, so we can't spend gold.

So far, out survival has been by hiding in the nearby ruins, but we will need to leave eventually

So, looks like a job for the plot device.

[tyckspoon]

I don't know how far into the 'Epic' portion of E6 you are, but don't be too surprised if you have to resort to 'plot device' to take it down- a dragon of that age category is tougher than anything you're really expected to take down as an E6 party, AFAIK, especially a short-handed one.

Your best bet, IMO, would be to turn all of your 3rd level slots into Split Ray Enervations and hope you get lucky with beating the dragon's Spell Resistance. If you can land a few negative levels, you'll have a much better chance of following up with other spells and your melee party members might actually be able to stand next to the dragon without instantly evaporating.. actually, that SR is the dragon's best defense against you. Otherwise, 4 Enervation rays (2x Split Ray Enervations) plus a Split Ray of Exhaustion would leave it pretty helpless, not to mention the Bestow Curses, Blindness/Deafness, and other debuffs you could pile onto it after the negative levels torpedo its saving throws.

[Archmage1]

All right then. Next time, we will hope for luck. If not, the beguiler will probably end up dying to ensure the parties escape. Which will be sad for me, seeing as I am the beguiler...

[Piggy Knowles]

Obviously if you're slinging solid fogs, you have access to some non-beguiler/dread necro spells, so I'll list a few that have been helpful to me. Of course, since you're in a dungeon, there's a good chance you won't have access to most of these, but still...

1. Bands of Steel. Excellent range, SR: No, and it targets Reflex. Even if the dragon makes its Reflex save, it's entangled, which makes it difficult to fly. Remember, as dragons are not great fliers, they must spend at least 50% of their speed moving forward in order to stay aloft. If they're entangled, they get a pretty decent debuff to Dex, and get their speed cut in half.

2. Similarly, tanglefoot bags are nice, although you'll have to be pretty close to the dragon to use them unless you've got Launch Item.

3. Scale Weakening (from Draconomicon). It's SR: Yes, but it removes a good chunk of the dragon's natural armor for 10 minutes/level for a second level spell. That's a pretty nice debuff - between that and the dex penalty from being entangled, you can drop its AC to around 20, which is much more reasonable.

4. Con damage. With 21 hit die, targeting Con is going to be a very effective way to weaken it. Cloudkill is unfortunately out of reach for you as a fifth-level spell, but there are some other effects that might work. Sinsabur's Baleful Bolt (Unapproachable East) is the only other 4th-level or below spell that comes to mind... it damages both Con and Strength with a reflex (!) save for half.

[Beowulf DW]

Dragon Slaying Advice? Get a really big spear. Stick 'im with the point end.

[Balmas]

Also, just a word of advice? Slap your DM for pitting three sixth level characters against a dragon designed to be dangerous to four twelfth level characters.

[tyckspoon]

Obviously if you're slinging solid fogs, you have access to some non-beguiler/dread necro spells, so I'll list a few that have been helpful to me. Of course, since you're in a dungeon, there's a good chance you won't have access to most of these, but still...


Solid Fog is a Beguiler spell. Easy to overlook since it's all alone on a short line on the end of the level 4s, but it's there.

[Tvtyrant]

A Mature Adult White Dragon has a dexterity score of 10, so it is probably going last. It's too bad you can't all use wands of scorching ray on it, as you are effectively certain to hit and it takes double fire damage.

[Archmage1]

Ah, well. Hopefully, the DM will give us something to make it doable.

[Mandrake]

I'm not that good at this, and I found this on the internet, so this is more of a question than an answer, but here goes:

does a White Dragon have cold subtype?

Creatures with the cold subtype are immune to the effects of shivering touch.

[Piggy Knowles]

Solid Fog is a Beguiler spell. Easy to overlook since it's all alone on a short line on the end of the level 4s, but it's there.

Gah, guess that advice doesn't help much, then. Never actually played a beguiler, and I just assumed it didn't have solid fog on its list without checking.

[Archmage1]

White dragons, according to the SRD, do have the cold subtype. Looks like the job of the plot device, unless we are willing to commit suicide to do it(use the adamantium greatsword to bring down the cavern, with the dragon inside...)

[Balmas]

I'm not that good at this, and I found this on the internet, so this is more of a question than an answer, but here goes:

does a White Dragon have cold subtype?

Creatures with the cold subtype are immune to the effects of shivering touch.

So, you are in fact, officially screwed. Up a creek without a boat, much less a paddle. Do NOT fight this dragon unless you plan to restart the campaign.

[Sith_Happens]

White dragons, according to the SRD, do have the cold subtype. Looks like the job of the plot device, unless we are willing to commit suicide to do it(use the adamantium greatsword to bring down the cavern, with the dragon inside...)

Or you could figure out some way to survive the collapse.:smallcool:

[Archmage1]

Solid fog to slow the fall of the debris, giving us more time to escape? Convincing the DM that beguilers have dimension door?
Attempt to use the non trained skills to create a shelter from the fall, that can then be used to dig our way out...

[hex0]

Sinsabur's Baleful Bolt (Unapproachable East) is the only other 4th-level or below spell that comes to mind... it damages both Con and Strength with a reflex (!) save for half.

Is there anything in Unapproachable East that isn't awesome?

[Archmage1]

From the sounds of it, not much. sadly, a beguiler and a dread necro can't cast it.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

They won't give you the win, but the maximum number of skeletons you can control throwing Alchemist's fire will do solid damage and force him to either maneuver out of their reach or waste several rounds killing them since their immune to cold.

[hex0]

They won't give you the win, but the maximum number of skeletons you can control throwing Alchemist's fire will do solid damage and force him to either maneuver out of their reach or waste several rounds killing them since their immune to cold.

Halfling skeletons. :smallbiggrin:

[Archmage1]

No onyx, which the DN has complained about in the past.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

No onyx, which the DN has complained about in the past.

?????

Explain please, have you tried to buy it repeatedly and found it unavailable? Did you know this would be a normal condiion in the campaign? If not you should have a serious talk with your DM about stealth nerfing DN by disallowing Animate Dead.

[Archmage1]

We did not reach level 6 until after we were away from any stores. I don't know if there will be any to buy, but for now, there is none.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Gonna chime in with a vote of "You're hosed."

This fight is unwinnable without a plot-device. Period. End of ****ing sentence.

Why are you after this critter anyway? Is there a mcguffin in his hoard? Do you need to get past him to reach some other area? In anycase, all signs point to avoidance. Sneak in for the mcguffin while he's out hunting. Find another way around.

Just, whatever you do, don't try to fight it again. Your characters have already used up enough of their luck to shorten their lives by decades as it is.

[Archmage1]

Sadly, we have the macguffin already, but the dragon can detect it by scent. Which makes evasion tricky. We need to get past him to get out of the dungeon.
Time to ope for a merciful DM. After the tribe of frost giants, I have my doubts...

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sadly, we have the macguffin already, but the dragon can detect it by scent. Which makes evasion tricky. We need to get past him to get out of the dungeon.
Time to ope for a merciful DM. After the tribe of frost giants, I have my doubts...

Is the mcguffin small enough to swallow? If not, I still have a plan, but it's going to get a bit messy.

[Archmage1]

Swallowing the Macguffin does not stop it being detected, but it is small enough to swallow. If not, we could just stick it in the undead warforged familiar.

[Vknight]

...Solution

Drop armor take run actions
Well person with best stuff for slowing the beast do just that.
And once the others have gotten a good distance and the Dragon has to choose between losing them and whoever is annoying it.
Run and hide or failing that make a break for a different exit or someplace to cause a cave in

Run; well hopefully it gets angry and storms off
Make a break; gives your allies more time
Cave In; hope it kills old draggy and then run

[Kelb_Panthera]

Swallowing the Macguffin does not stop it being detected, but it is small enough to swallow. If not, we could just stick it in the undead warforged familiar.

That nixes my other plan too then.

Here's an option of last resort.

Have whichever of the party is least able to do anything against the creature, take a finger from each of the others. Those two fight the dragon as a distraction while that character makes a getaway with the mcguffin. He then uses the severed fingers to get his now very dead friends reincarnated.

[tyckspoon]

Oh, hey, I just remembered a stupendously cheesy tactic you have available to you.. Summon Undead IV can summon an Allip. Have the Dread Necromancer Versatile Caster up a couple of them and set them on the dragon. Very few things have a good way of dealing with incorporeal undead inflicting ability drain.. this is about the only thing I can think of (that is readily available to you) that would have a decent chance of really threatening the dragon. Don't be surprised if your DM forbids it afterwards, tho.

[Archmage1]

Now, that sounds like a plan.
Thanks.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Oh, hey, I just remembered a stupendously cheesy tactic you have available to you.. Summon Undead IV can summon an Allip. Have the Dread Necromancer Versatile Caster up a couple of them and set them on the dragon. Very few things have a good way of dealing with incorporeal undead inflicting ability drain.. this is about the only thing I can think of (that is readily available to you) that would have a decent chance of really threatening the dragon. Don't be surprised if your DM forbids it afterwards, tho.

That could certainly level the playing field a bit. It's no guarantee, but it's definitely something.

[Darthteej]

And application of poorly thought out rules/spells wins the day again! Was there ever any doubt?

[Archmage1]

That is why I posted here. Somehow, I suspect that someone could figure out a way for a level 1 character to beat the neutronium golem.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Ok, you really should have explained in your first post that the dragon was guarding the only exit to a complex that you're in and he has a possibly insurmountable ability to detect you going buy. That would have kept us from wasting time telling you how to overcome the challenge with resources that would be attainable in most campaigns.

Is the dungeon complex cleared out? If not you could go hunting try hoping for a magic item that can help you or a creature with a nonstandard movement ability you can charm to get you out of there.

If you must fight, I suggest Summoning an Allip or two with Summon Undead IV and buffing them with haste and displacement. If the dragon hasn't buffed it's touch AC (do you know if it has?) the Allip will have a 3/4 chance of hitting for 1d4 Wis damage which will kill it in 5-6 attacks, each hit will also lower it's will save. Everyone should do what they can to backup the Allips and keep them alive with the the beguiler switching to targeting Will save-or-lose spells if the Allips get 3-4 hits off.

[Archmage1]

Thank you for the advice. To be fair, I thought I had included the needed info in the op: That is, I said that we needed a solution to the dragon issue, although I should have mentioned that stealth was not an option.

So, current plan: Summon Allips, displace and haste them, and use will spells to cripple it as well. I like it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Thank you for the advice. To be fair, I thought I had included the needed info in the op: That is, I said that we needed a solution to the dragon issue, although I should have mentioned that stealth was not an option.

So, current plan: Summon Allips, displace and haste them, and use will spells to cripple it as well. I like it.

Just a heads up: though this is a solid plan, there's a chance that your allips will be anihilated by the dragon's opening blast with his breath weapon. Specifically, they have approximately 47.5% chance each of taking full damage from a breath attack and a little less than even odds of being destroyed in that instance.

[Archmage1]

And thus: send in the warforged to draw the first breath attack. Hopefully, the recharge time will be sufficient to eliminate the dragon.

[Sith_Happens]

Personally I'd focus on "how to survive a cave-in," if only for style.

[Kerilstrasz]

Well..
Ask yourself.. is your Dm REALLY wants you to kill this Dragon?
if yes... do the simplest thingy.. ask for a detailed description of his cave...
use that D20 for spot... in many cases, on a seemingly certain deadly encounter,
the answer is the thin frost floor... or even better that big stalactite above the
dragon's head... or his poor choice to have his cave bellow a lava stream...
generally.. that obviously unbeatable enemy is either to be dodged or to be slain
with a simple,creative way :)

Edit: Lol.. got the craziest thought... let the dragon shallow one of you...
in his belly you may find a ring of wishes :P.. but i guess not!

[Archmage1]

The cave is a series of ledges, which have ice bridges between them. Still, we now have a plan that does not involve begging for a plot device.