Battle Strategy Help

[Milo v3]

In one of my games a huge battle is going to occur with a nation of human equivelents and a few more, are going to lay siege upon a single castle and its surrounding village.

The castle is in a valley, at the base of a marsh and lake. On the otherside of the lake is a large forest which leads to the entrance of the valley.

The main problem is that I cannot figure out what kinds of strategy the attacking army would use. Could somebody help me figure out how they would enact the siege.

Here is a quick map of the area:

http://www.dandwiki.com/w/images/e/e6/Valley_Map.png

Key
Green = Dense Forest
Light Green = Sparce Forest/Plains
Light Blue = River and lake
Aqua = Marsh
Sandy = Village
Grey = Castle

[Milo v3]

The attacking army consists mainly of the following (Race Class - Average Level Range (Percentage of Army)):

Karmainian Military
Gnome Experts - 9-10 (10%)
Gnome Fighters - 8-9 (2%)
Karmainian Clerics - 7-9 (10%)
Karmainian Favoured Souls - 5-7 (3%)
Karmainian Fighters - 10-12 (30%)
Karmainian Paladins - 8-11 (20%)
Karmainian Rangers - 6-9 (5%)
Karmainian Rogues - 6-9 (5%)
Karmainian Warriors - 5-6 (7%)

Mercenaries

Other races and classes - 7-8 (5%)



The Village and Castle have:

Allips - 4-5 (2%)
Awakened Karmainian Skeletons (Various Classes) - 5-10 (40%)
Dire Ape Skeletons - 4-5 (5%)
Ghoul Fighters - 6-8 (5%)
Giant Eagles - 4-6 (3%)
Human Wizard/Undying Sovereign - 30 (Unique)
Noncombatant Commoners and Experts - 1-3 (20%)
Roc Familiar - 20 (Unique)
Vampire Rogues/Sanguine Sovereigns - 11-12 (5%)
Vampire Wizards - 9-10 (10%)
Vampires with other classes - 6-7 (5%)
Other Undead - 7-11 (5%)

Karmainians, and Gnomes statistics can be found here, along with the rest of the races in the campaign world. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253376)

The Vampires are also a homebrew variant. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13415476)

[Saintheart]

If they know what kind of enemy they're facing, the first thing to do is to sling buckets and buckets and buckets of Holy Water over the walls via catapult. The experts can build those. They can't siege out an enemy that doesn't have to eat, so it would have to be to grind the enemy down by attrition of their forces.

How high are the walls? If it's less than sixty feet, then bring a bunch of clerics close on the walls under mangonels and start them popping out to turn undead. Or better yet, just have the clerics stand off and start casting the Light of Lunia/Mercuria/Venya line of spells from the Spell Compendium, since they're medium range and effective out to 100 feet plus.

Giant Eagles or flying targets? No problem. Clerics cast Downdraft and smack said eagles into the ground largely without a save.

In fact, the clerics could just cast mass versions of Hide from Undead and see if they can get in close on the walls. Once they do, the ninth level clerics to just cast lots of Stone Shape on the closest wall and create seams in it to thereby create structural instabilities and make the damn thing fall down. If any of them have Reach Spell DMM, makes it even easier.

[Rejakor]

Okay, with the amount of levels being thrown around here, this is a pretty worldshattering conflict. So i'll just give you a snapshot.


Minotaur mercenaries roaring in anger and terror as they form up to protect gangs of sappers as they run out bridges across the river and throw up earthworks to protect the huge iron trebuchets being summoned into mage-dug pits along the river shore, clouds of invisible vampires flitting and flying through the air and spitting various spells against the raised tower shields of the minotaurs, killing swathes with each vicious, blood empowered spell.

Counterfire from the ground rips through the sky, ripping up abjurations and counterspells, the explosive blasts of sapper crossbow bolts shattering the air as the gnome experts panic and fire upwards.

Karmainian Paladins and Bards stalk through the mass, rallying troops as regiments ready to cross the river amid the zip and spang of spell and arrowfire. Brief violent altercations flicker on the edges of the river as teams of vampire assassins step out of the shadows and halt the progress of the sappers, strike at leaders or officers, or try to wipe out entire army groups before simply fading away, occasionally turning to mist or being destroyed outright by a lucky sword or spell hit.

The village across the river lies empty, living population evacuated to vasty cellars underneath the castle, and stood over by vampire knights with naked greatswords, as much to keep them from panicking as to protect them.

In the woods around the castle, Karmeini scout units skirmish with vampire rogues, many of them already dead, even detachments of heavy infantry sent to surround the woods and stop the vampires fleeing having trouble in the undergrowth against the strike and fade of vampiric bat swarms and wolf packs.

Unnatural cloud fills the skies, letting the vampires act even during the day, as the Master of the Tower broods in his lair, absent-mindedly striking down the third attempt by a circle of mages to lay a True-Death spell upon the ground, stopping his vampires from regenerating.

Circles of mages combine their powers to stop strong assaults of vampire infiltration teams and skeleton attacks - undeath to death, command undead, even gouts of empowered flame.

Individual clerics attached to units raise their holy symbols high, and the Karmainian infantry with shields especially emblazoned with holy symbols use them to ward off the vampire rogues and wizards - faring less well against the skeletons.

Light spells hang in the fog above the river, burning any undead caught in their midst, and the chants of priests and the rising clouds of their undead-destroying incense are a constant mutter over the lines.



The river is breached.


Huge loads of flaming sulphur set the village aflame - vampires burned like candles until the Master pulled them back to the castle. Then the trebuchets turned their attention to the castle and curtain wall, rending them in dozens of places, and sending skeletons and vampires alike to their deaths in showers of stone - still, the karmeini pressed forward, not wanting to be there during the nightfall.

The Master raises his arms, and an Epic Spell is unleashed. A tide of mud drowns the advancing legions of the army, wiping out the minotaur mercenaries completely, and killing many of the heavy infantry. Heedless, they rush forward.

Armoured trolls form the wedges of assault forces thrust into the gap. Into intense spell and arrow fire, mantlets carved with symbols of warding are thrust forward, anti-magic fields and raised force walls providing relief from constant bombardment by magical ballistae and enemy mages using long-hoarded wands and scrolls.

Abjurant Clerics raise their holy symbols and blast spell after spell from the sky, as units trained in defending against area blasts scatter and form shield walls against waves of heat, acid, cold, and force.

The forces breach the wall, and brutal tunnel and wall fighting commence, undead not giving an inch of ground as vampires continue to harry the karmeini infantry, forced back by priests wielding every piece of divine power they can find.

In the cellar, the civilians wail, and the vampire knights hold their swords uneasily.

Armoured ghoul fighter formations erupt from the ground beneath the walls, paralyzing all they touch and taking macabre satisfaction in coup-de-gracing those they make helpless. Reinforcements flood the gap, though, and push forward, cutting relentlessly through the ghouls inferior numbers. Eventually they break into the courtyard, and the elite vampire knights charge, hewing through infantrymen, vampire mages flying above keeping the clerics off them. (at this point, defeated vampires are fleeing through secret tunnels to where their coffins have been moved to - unless the vampire master is trapped in the castle, at which point they flee to coffins in the cellar which is filled with traps to allow them their hour to regen).

They are defeated by paladins and other mortal champions.


At this point, the Master could end-run the karmeini's base of operations, striking for the leaders and sappers, his castle so defended secretly a trap for the infantrymen, paladins, clerics, and wizards sent to take it in that there is nothing of value there but ways to sap their strength and kill them.

Or he could descend to the courtyard and just wipe out tens of thousands of men, as he is an epic level wizard and basically unstoppable by the karmeini wizards and clerics, and he'd have his elite guard of whatevers too.

Or he could just leave, and take his vampires with him.

[Sudain]

Alright. Advisor Milo? Can I call you Milo? Excellent.

So, the first order of business is to remind me why I'm attacking the castle at all. Do i want the site, the building, the inhabitants(dead?), or some other reason?

Second, get me a better map. This one does not center the castle so i don't know how high the surrounding valley is, nor what terrain modifications for the troops each condition would pose. Also, please have the map maker note any special sites like mines, tunnels, arcane nodes, or any other such places of interest. People don't often build a castle out in the boonies for no reason.

Thirdly, how are our provisions? How long can we hold out on a slow siege? Anything special for us?

Milo, please send a small team to evaluate the trees to see if they are suitable for construction.

Do we have any recon on the placement and makeup of troops? If so, where are they stationed, and do they have any predictable behavior pattern?

Why are those troops there? Do they have a leader... They have a WHAT?! Why in blazes is he here? Pull out the history books and ask around discretely to see if we know anything about him. That right there may be the sole reason we pull out. I didn't become a commander of these forces to senselessly sacrifice our men to such lunacy. Also, see if we have any arcane defenses... We don't... Blast!

Milo, organize a death patrol. We always retrieve our dead. We will prioritize our keeping our people alive, and preventing them from getting any new bodies.

How to organize the troops will depend upon the information you return with. Chop chop; we weren't sent here to have tea you know.

[ahenobarbi]

Thirdly, how are our provisions? How long can we hold out on a slow siege? Anything special for us?

Actually there is answer for that - most of them are undead so they should be able to last rather long (and have enough wizards to not care about provisions anyway).

[Slipperychicken]

Make siege equipment from dense forest and roll it up to the castle. The forest will impede visibility, perhaps allowing attackers to attack with surprise...


...Until the Epic Wizard trashes the army with Epic Spellcasting, laughs a bit. If he's feeling especially mean, he can augment his Epic Spells by having his numerous spellcaster buddies contribute slots to it (look at DC Mitigation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm)). With the Summon seed alone, with the help of his Wizards' 5th level slots, he can perma-summon extraordinarily-powerful outsiders and just have them crush the attackers. And this is if he's feeling lazy.

Epic Spell Math

(Summon Seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/summon.htm) (14 base DC) + CR 20 creature (+36 DC)) x5 Permanent = 250 DC.

Mitigating Factors: 27 5th level slots (-243 DC), Increase casting time by 1 minute (-2), 1d6 Backlash damage (-1)

End Result: Spellcraft DC 1, 2 minutes to cast, permanently summons a CR 20 Outsider who the caster can order around forever. Development time (only needs to be paid once, and is extrapolated from Spellcraft DC) is one day, 9,000gp, 360xp.

Notes: If Spellcraft DC 0 is allowed, remove the 1d6 backlash damage, add 1 minute to casting time, then the spell take 0 days, 0gp, and 0xp to develop. If he would rather not summon an Outsider, he can add 10 DC to summon another creature type. If he wants a higher-CR creature, add 10 DC for every CR increase (each additional point of CR increase takes about 1 5th level slot to negate).

EDIT: If the Wizard doesn't mind having his creature out for only 20 rounds, he can simply remove the Permanent adjustment and employ a CR 118 Outsider (if any such creature exists. Or a CR 108 creature of some other type if need be), which really should be able to curbstomp the army without a thought.


Honestly, I just don't see how this army can possibly win, with the sheer power a 30th level Wizard is throwing around (even if he does absolutely nothing to prepare for the attack, he can still crush it without much effort). I'd call the attack hopeless, victory for Team Wizard unless the PCs can take him out.

[Sudain]

Actually there is answer for that - most of them are undead so they should be able to last rather long (and have enough wizards to not care about provisions anyway).

Our supply lines are not theirs. They don't have to eat. We do. They don't have to sleep, we do. But otherwise an excellent and pertinent observation.

Agreed with the epic spell-casting around it's not winnable.

[Milo v3]

I made a huge reply which replies to all the replies, but the forum ate it.

I'll try and reply properly soon.

[Slipperychicken]

I made a huge reply which replies to all the replies, but the forum ate it.


http://images.wikia.com/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/6/62/I-know-that-feel-bro.jpg


EDIT: Also, how big is each army, in terms of total numbers? (you already gave composition). I mainly want this to determine the number of spellcasters which the Defenders have, and thus how severely the Attackers are boned by Epic Spellcasting.

[Milo v3]

If they know what kind of enemy they're facing,
It is rumoured that the Enemies are undead.


How high are the walls?
They are 20 metres tall, or 66 ft.


Giant Eagles or flying targets? No problem. Clerics cast Downdraft and smack said eagles into the ground largely without a save.
Would that work on the Roc familiar?


In fact, the clerics could just cast mass versions of Hide from Undead and see if they can get in close on the walls.
Note that their isn't a mass version of Hide from Undead, so you will only have around 8 people effected per casting. Also the Wizards would likely mke their willsaves



Minotaur mercenaries roaring in anger and terror as they form up to protect gangs of sappers as they run out bridges across the river and throw up earthworks to protect the huge iron trebuchets being summoned into mage-dug pits along the river shore, clouds of invisible vampires flitting and flying through the air and spitting various spells against the raised tower shields of the minotaurs, killing swathes with each vicious, blood empowered spell.
Sadly Minotaurs don't exist in this campaign world.


occasionally turning to mist or being destroyed outright by a lucky sword or spell hit.
Note this uses a different vampire template than normal. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13415476)


The village across the river lies empty, living population evacuated to vasty cellars underneath the castle, and stood over by vampire knights with naked greatswords, as much to keep them from panicking as to protect them.
The living population of the village is equal to 6.


Unnatural cloud fills the skies, letting the vampires act even during the day,
They can already act during the day. Though it causes them to be weaker.


Individual clerics attached to units raise their holy symbols high, and the Karmainian infantry with shields especially emblazoned with holy symbols use them to ward off the vampire rogues and wizards - faring less well against the skeletons.
Why does this affect the skeletons less than the vampires?


Armoured trolls form the wedges of assault forces thrust into the gap.
There are also no trolls in this campaign setting.


Or he could descend to the courtyard and just wipe out tens of thousands of men, as he is an epic level wizard and basically unstoppable by the karmeini wizards and clerics, and he'd have his elite guard of whatevers too.
Note, the Karmainian Military have no sorcerers or wizards. All of them would have to come from the mercenaries.



So, the first order of business is to remind me why I'm attacking the castle at all. Do i want the site, the building, the inhabitants(dead?), or some other reason?
The master of the keep and village is wanted by the nation of North Karma, as he; is a willing arcanist, rumoured to be undead, sent raids against the nearby temples of Dylian (The Karmainians patron deity), and he personally assassinated the previous king of North Karma during a ceremony. In addition to those reasons, a third party is also funding the attack.


Second, get me a better map. This one does not center the castle so i don't know how high the surrounding valley is, nor what terrain modifications for the troops each condition would pose. Also, please have the map maker note any special sites like mines, tunnels, arcane nodes, or any other such places of interest. People don't often build a castle out in the boonies for no reason.
I'll get a better map ASAP.

As for why he selected this location; it is isolated from the cities of North Karma, and he personally likes the aestics of the area.


Thirdly, how are our provisions? How long can we hold out on a slow siege? Anything special for us?
Because of your funding, you can last for around three months without a single day lacking food.


Milo, please send a small team to evaluate the trees to see if they are suitable for construction.

The majority of the trees in the area are Yews and can be used in the creation of bows. Also in the marshes Black Alder's can be found and used for timber.


Do we have any recon on the placement and makeup of troops? If so, where are they stationed, and do they have any predictable behavior pattern?
Nearly all of its military force resides in the village and castle, making regular patrols. Though scouts search the nearby forest and cliffs once every four nights.


Why are those troops there?
Nearly all of those troops are citizens of the village.


Do they have a leader... They have a WHAT?! Why in blazes is he here? Pull out the history books and ask around discretely to see if we know anything about him. That right there may be the sole reason we pull out. I didn't become a commander of these forces to senselessly sacrifice our men to such lunacy. Also, see if we have any arcane defenses... We don't... Blast!
The Eternal Bard appeared a twelve years ago when he started the village and castle. He has the appearance of a young karmainian in his 16s, but his blood doesn't glow when touched by moonlight.

He is a powerful mage, which was evident once he assassinated the king. He appears to have exceptional skill in regards to Necromancy. Because of this his minions are rumoured to be undead, though they do not seem to rot in any way.

Tales say that he knows everything in existance, as he seems to know every conspiracy or secret. Though this isn't believed by everyone.

His name comes from two factors;
The first being that he has never been seen to ever have an injury or have a single cut, even after combating royal guards. The second being that he has a flair for the dramatic, and appears to desire everything to be climactic.

As such he would willingly not utilise his full strength, simply so that the conflict can be epic in proportion.

In every battle he has been in, he has watched from above at first within his gargantuan companion, and his vampiric second-in-command, then he jumps.


Make siege equipment from dense forest and roll it up to the castle. The forest will impede visibility, perhaps allowing attackers to attack with surprise...


...Until the Epic Wizard trashes the army with Epic Spellcasting, laughs a bit. If he's feeling especially mean, he can augment his Epic Spells by having his numerous spellcaster buddies contribute slots to it (look at DC Mitigation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm)). With the Summon seed alone, with the help of his Wizards' 5th level slots, he can perma-summon extraordinarily-powerful outsiders and just have them crush the attackers. And this is if he's feeling lazy.

Epic Spell Math

(Summon Seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/summon.htm) (14 base DC) + CR 20 creature (+36 DC)) x5 Permanent = 250 DC.

Mitigating Factors: 27 5th level slots (-243 DC), Increase casting time by 1 minute (-2), 1d6 Backlash damage (-1)

End Result: Spellcraft DC 1, 2 minutes to cast, permanently summons a CR 20 Outsider who the caster can order around forever. Development time (only needs to be paid once, and is extrapolated from Spellcraft DC) is one day, 9,000gp, 360xp.

Notes: If Spellcraft DC 0 is allowed, remove the 1d6 backlash damage, add 1 minute to casting time, then the spell take 0 days, 0gp, and 0xp to develop. If he would rather not summon an Outsider, he can add 10 DC to summon another creature type. If he wants a higher-CR creature, add 10 DC for every CR increase (each additional point of CR increase takes about 1 5th level slot to negate).

EDIT: If the Wizard doesn't mind having his creature out for only 20 rounds, he can simply remove the Permanent adjustment and employ a CR 118 Outsider (if any such creature exists. Or a CR 108 creature of some other type if need be), which really should be able to curbstomp the army without a thought.


Honestly, I just don't see how this army can possibly win, with the sheer power a 30th level Wizard is throwing around (even if he does absolutely nothing to prepare for the attack, he can still crush it without much effort). I'd call the attack hopeless, victory for Team Wizard unless the PCs can take him out.

The Eternal Bard is purposely holding back, hoping for a battle where the tides will turn repeatedly.

[Rejakor]

Would that work on the Roc familiar?

It allows a save, so no, it would never work on the familiar of a 30th level wizard.

Note that their isn't a mass version of Hide from Undead, so you will only have around 8 people effected per casting. Also the Wizards would likely mke their willsaves



Sadly Minotaurs don't exist in this campaign world.

[Insert Campaign Appropriate Race of Strong Barbaric Mercs/Allies]


Note this uses a different vampire template than normal. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13415476)

That changes a bunch of stuff.


The living population of the village is equal to 6.

There's no peasants for vampires to feed from? Sad face.


They can already act during the day. Though it causes them to be weaker.

Likely an Epic Vampire Wizard with a large army of vampires would have an Epic Spell or magic item to negate that disadvantage in some way.


Why does this affect the skeletons less than the vampires?

A strongly presented holy symbol or mirror wards off vampires, although obviously not your vampires. Skeletons, while being turnable, are not warded off by holy symbols carried by fighters.


There are also no trolls in this campaign setting.

Substitute golems or other [Rare, Expensive, But Tough Unit].


Note, the Karmainian Military have no sorcerers or wizards. All of them would have to come from the mercenaries.

Are they religiously against them? If not, they'd be idiots not to spend their gold on some arcane countermeasures.


The master of the keep and village is wanted by the nation of North Karma, as he; is a willing arcanist, rumoured to be undead, sent raids against the nearby temples of Dylian (The Karmainians patron deity), and he personally assassinated the previous king of North Karma during a ceremony. In addition to those reasons, a third party is also funding the attack.

Have the wizards be third party guys.


The majority of the trees in the area are Yews and can be used in the creation of bows. Also in the marshes Black Alder's can be found and used for timber.

In a pinch you can use anything for siege work. Even mud, if you have reeds or cloth to form baking molds, you can build siegeworks out of mud brick.

[Sith_Happens]

Some other people have already gotten to that, but I kind of want to reiterate:


Human Wizard/Undying Sovereign - 30 (Unique)

The attacking army is completely boned. Even if the Eternal Bard is holding back/sitting most of the fight out to have a better show, as long as he does in fact want to win in the end there's nothing the Karmainians can do about it.

[Rejakor]

If the Karmainians heavily outnumber (say, 20 to 1) the other army, and the wizard is a bit of a faerun dumbass (i.e. isn't smart about what he's doing at all despite having int 50), they could win a pyrrhic victory, which is what I was going for.

[Silvanoshei]

•Human Wizard/Undying Sovereign - 30 (Unique)

lmao... so... this is no longer much of a debate between armies or tactics. Simply put... are the PC's epic and have a wizard that's 30? Because I think the world is going to either destroyed or severely crippled. :smalleek:

[Milo v3]

Also, how big is each army, in terms of total numbers? (you already gave composition). I mainly want this to determine the number of spellcasters which the Defenders have, and thus how severely the Attackers are boned by Epic Spellcasting.
The Attacking army has 2,000 soldiers. While the Village has around 950.



There's no peasants for vampires to feed from? Sad face.

Epic level magic allows for 200 cubic feet of blood with a small, 1 minute ritual. And there is also normal magic.


Likely an Epic Vampire Wizard with a large army of vampires would have an Epic Spell or magic item to negate that disadvantage in some way.
The weakness is only Light Blindness, so Sundark Googles solve it.


A strongly presented holy symbol or mirror wards off vampires, although obviously not your vampires. Skeletons, while being turnable, are not warded off by holy symbols carried by fighters.
Of course, forgot about that.


Are they religiously against them? If not, they'd be idiots not to spend their gold on some arcane countermeasures.
They are, though the mercenaries have a decent amount of them.


Have the wizards be third party guys.
The Third Party is a mage.


Some other people have already gotten to that, but I kind of want to reiterate:

The attacking army is completely boned. Even if the Eternal Bard is holding back/sitting most of the fight out to have a better show, as long as he does in fact want to win in the end there's nothing the Karmainians can do about it.
The thing is, the Karmainians don't know he is epic in power. They only know he is a powerful mage who has skill in necromancy.

Also while I know that The Eternal Bard will eventually win, I still need to figure out how the Karmainians will attack.


If the Karmainians heavily outnumber (say, 20 to 1) the other army, and the wizard is a bit of a faerun dumbass (i.e. isn't smart about what he's doing at all despite having int 50), they could win a pyrrhic victory, which is what I was going for.
It's 2 to 1, and the Wizard hopefully isn't going to be a dumbass. That would be boring to him.

[Rejakor]

Right... so you want to know what an epic level wizard who is easily bored would set up in the way of defenses/tricks/traps so he could see two armies fight for his amusement?

He'd probably aid one side and then the other, then.

Or not properly prepare so his vampires don't start winning (wizard magic is very potent on the battlefield compared to cleric magic - more BFC and area-save-effects).


But for the karmeini army you'll probably need to start looking up the various cleric spells that can help them and also some historical army tactics. Given DnD and DnD magic, there'll be more stealth and rush than in regular siege battles - so plan around move earth and stone from earth domain clerics to clear walls, small groups of men moving in from all directions (to avoid concentration of kill spells), bards and marshals being used to buff each group, archer snipers firing at long range increments, trebuchets, mangonels, ballistae, being magically summoned (Shrink Item is on a cleric domain somewhere.. planning domain I think) to provide the long-range fire support wizards would normally fill the role of.

Also the karmeini army would need to be relatively relentless, shoveling fresh men in and raining arrows down on it's own troops - in a DnD world, if you don't have better magic, you need to be faster and more ruthless and never give your foes time to plan, so if they've succeeded in the past enough to still exist that will likely be their go-to.

Attacking from lots of different angles (flying (probably be shut down by the epic wizard as it's not climactic enough), tunneling, teleporting, air-walking, transported by rogues in portable holes, by gate, by dimension door, in force organizations where troops are sheltered near to the fight(in things that block LoS) so they can be rushed in as soon as a unit gets multi-cloudkilled or rock to mud-mud-to-rocked etc.

[TuggyNE]

Also while I know that The Eternal Bard will eventually win, I still need to figure out how the Karmainians will attack.

It's 2 to 1, and the Wizard hopefully isn't going to be a dumbass. That would be boring to him.

So ... this is a cutscene then?

[Rejakor]

Well, both armies are being run by the DM, so yes.

Obviously the PCs are involved somehow, but not in terms of swinging the battle one way or the other (either through lack of power or lack of intent).

He just wants to make it suitably interesting so the players' eyes don't glaze over as he's describing it for them.

[Sith_Happens]

He'd probably aid one side and then the other, then.

Okay, so now I'm imagining him having multiple simulacrums of himself fly invisibly around the battlefield, assisting and/or hindering either side as he sees fit to keep things evenly matched and draw out the engagement for as long as possible. Needless to say, the Karmainians would be extremely unamused should they find out that they're being periodically aided by the enemy for his personal enjoyment.:smallamused:

[Saintheart]

It allows a save, so no, it would never work on the familiar of a 30th level wizard.

Have another look at Downdraft. Failed save does not mean no damage, it means less damage and you're still pancaked onto the ground in any event. The only thing that could stop you from taking no damage is your altitude. :smallsmile:

[Rejakor]

Unfortunately, most characters of that level are going to have regular or improved evasion on their familiars.

Worse, it's very unlikely he won't have a globe of invuln and SR, and it's a 3rd level spell with SR: Yes. That stuff gets shared with familiar via Share Spells.

[NichG]

Sending in an army to capture/kill the one guy is kind of awkward tactics honestly. A single individual can move faster than an army (which is constrained by its slowest members plus the overhead of supporting its members), and so fleeing is a bit too easy for this to be effective on its own. Add high-level caster to the picture and teleporting to safety is just too easy for him for an army to pin him down.

On the other hand, the army could be used as a way to force this guy to come to a particular place to respond to the threat. For instance, what if he's away from home doing something when the army attacks? He'd be likely to prep spells for dealing with an army and then teleport in to mess around with the battle. That'd be a perfect opportunity to coordinate with an assassination strike based on higher level individuals who have already infiltrated the castle. Basically, the army is the lure to get him to a known place and time, and then the assassins have their setup to actually take him out.

If he's forced to flee, then the army has destroyed some of his resources so it wasn't a waste. If the assassins succeed, then victory. If the assassins fail, then the army is probably screwed too, so it really hinges on them pulling it off.

Depending on how brutal the invading army's tactics are, you could do something funny with the whole vampire population thing. The army has a 'forlorn hope' battalion that is sent in first. Most of them are expected to die at the hands of vampires, and so they have all taken a blood toxin or something that would screw over the vampires if they fed on them. Survivors get instantly promoted/receive the remaining pay due to them for their current contract and can go home, in order to create incentive for people to join such a suicidal squad.

Since most of the magic is on the side of the vampires, plus they basically can't be starved out, I think the most important problem for the invaders is 'how do we get them out of their fort?'. Given the terrain, normally I'd suggest things such as sending squads to create rockslides to damage the castle defenses or take out people in the valley, but facing high level vampires that tactic is probably and ineffective use of resources.

[Rejakor]

Army as written can't make a 30th level wizard flee.

Not a non-faerun one.

At best a tactical genius could distract the wizard or force the wizard to split his attention long enough slaughter most of his vampires/skeletons.

A one in a million genghis khan level supergenius might execute a ridiculously complex stealth based plan to distract the wizard and kill off his army/wreck his castle while only losing a third/half your men (the rest would be scattered and running as fast as they can in different directions).

[Slipperychicken]

If they have their most powerful Clerics prepare by piling on castings of Sacred Item (Clr 4 Pal 4, Complete Champion) for a few days, they can do some serious damage to Undead, provided they can reliably get them to touch Sacred Item'd stuff.

Putting this on their swords will be sweet -an extra 9d4 damage (plus a rider save or flee/cower for 1d4 minutes) for the first hit. For the second hit, put a casting on a gauntlet, and just punch the zombies and have them explode in blinding white light.


EDIT: If I make another 3.5 Cleric, I am absolutely going to have him Sacred Item a gauntlet and punch a zombie to death. At least once, to say I did.

[NichG]

Army as written can't make a 30th level wizard flee.

Not a non-faerun one.

At best a tactical genius could distract the wizard or force the wizard to split his attention long enough slaughter most of his vampires/skeletons.

A one in a million genghis khan level supergenius might execute a ridiculously complex stealth based plan to distract the wizard and kill off his army/wreck his castle while only losing a third/half your men (the rest would be scattered and running as fast as they can in different directions).

There's no evidence this is a 'non-faerun' one. In fact, there's specific evidence that this guy screws around and doesn't take things seriously, which means he's quite possible to defeat. Generally speaking, even very smart NPCs can be driven by emotions, character flaws, and the like, and that makes them possible to defeat.

[Slipperychicken]

There's no evidence this is a 'non-faerun' one. In fact, there's specific evidence that this guy screws around and doesn't take things seriously, which means he's quite possible to defeat. Generally speaking, even very smart NPCs can be driven by emotions, character flaws, and the like, and that makes them possible to defeat.

Epic is nearly always played very low-op. Anyone with the system knowledge needed to break Epic Spellcasting knows how badly the system shatters into an unrecognizable mess at level 21+, and avoids those levels accordingly (much like many groups will have a "gentlemen's agreement" to avoid Craft Contingent Spell, Leadership, Disjunction, Aboleth Mucus, or other game-breaking material out of a sense of fairness).

[Milo v3]

Right... so you want to know what an epic level wizard who is easily bored would set up in the way of defenses/tricks/traps so he could see two armies fight for his amusement?
I want to know how the Karmainian army would attack the village and castle.


Attacking from lots of different angles (flying (probably be shut down by the epic wizard as it's not climactic enough),
Flying can be pretty epic.


So ... this is a cutscene then?
Technically, though the players can have severe impacts on how the battle occurs.



Obviously the PCs are involved somehow, but not in terms of swinging the battle one way or the other (either through lack of power or lack of intent).
One of the PC's is the Third Party, and the other is a Paladin in the fight.


Needless to say, the Karmainians would be extremely unamused should they find out that they're being periodically aided by the enemy for his personal enjoyment.:smallamused:
Especially since the third party is one of The Eternal Bard's best friends.


Have another look at Downdraft. Failed save does not mean no damage, it means less damage and you're still pancaked onto the ground in any event. The only thing that could stop you from taking no damage is your altitude. :smallsmile:
It seems as though the Eternal Bard might fall into the battle then. Though he would likely have a fly speed from magic.


Sending in an army to capture/kill the one guy is kind of awkward tactics honestly.
They sent an army because he is protected by a village and castle, which are full of criminals. In doing this attack they would hopefully defeat the his criminal followers in addition to The Eternal Bard.


Army as written can't make a 30th level wizard flee.
He isn't technically a 30th level wizard. He's a level 30 character with 20 levels in wizard.


If they have their most powerful Clerics prepare by piling on castings of Sacred Item (Clr 4 Pal 4, Complete Champion) for a few days, they can do some serious damage to Undead, provided they can reliably get them to touch Sacred Item'd stuff.

Putting this on their swords will be sweet -an extra 9d4 damage (plus a rider save or flee/cower for 1d4 minutes) for the first hit. For the second hit, put a casting on a gauntlet, and just punch the zombies and have them explode in blinding white light.


EDIT: If I make another 3.5 Cleric, I am absolutely going to have him Sacred Item a gauntlet and punch a zombie to death. At least once, to say I did.
That positive energy would burn, though it would probably be best for a powerful first strike.

[Rejakor]

It seems as though the Eternal Bard might fall into the battle then. Though he would likely have a fly speed from magic.

No. His Familiar has Improved Evasion.

It makes it's save because the save DC is like 18 and he is level 30 and it uses his saving throws. Even on a 1 it only falls 50'.

So for every 20 clerics casting the spell at it, it falls 50', and that's assuming that it doesn't have a buff on that stops 2nd level spells (which it should, if this guy isn't a faerun wizard - all-day buffs is a problem he should have solved before now, and even if not, a shaped AMF is basic battle-survival dealio).

And that's assuming it's in range. If it's hovering 1500' up, then it's fine.

And if the wizard bothers letting his mount hide in clouds, or uses invisibility, then it's very doubtful they'd even detect him.


Also, keep in mind he probably has a bunch of level 15 simulacrums that can be used to stealthily shift the tides of battle - no real reason for him to get personally involved until and unless he wants to.



But yeah. A professional army in a DnD world would use tower shield equipped small units with aoe buffers (marshal, bard, maybe dragon shaman medics) to 'tank' the enemy, (and as they are high level fighters they would be set up as lockdown trippers probably, or phalanx shield AC fighters), and Volley Fire high level fighter/ranger led archery teams to focus fire on enemy monsters and formations.

Dragonfire Bards if they've got'em.

Clerics enchanting swords and shields and maybe a few arrows with Sacred Item wouldn't be a bad thing either.

They'll use Shrunk siege weapons to clear large enemy formations or fortifications, and anything wooden will be set on fire for confusion value. Fire, Earth, Windstorm clerics have decent evocations, so they'll probably be there for crowd control. Prayer is obvious. Clerics can use turn attempts to counterspell as an immediate action with the right ACF, so there will be a lot of those guys with the obvious nightsticks etc backing up the front line.

Given the prevalence of large monsters in fantasy warfare, magical ballistae with magical ammo might be mounted on carts (animated or otherwise, levitated or otherwise) and used to support forward units like an anti-tank gun in WWII.

Given the prevalence of area-effect magic in fantasy warfare, units would be heavily spaced, and reinforcements would likely be brought in by aerial units, hidden in tunnels until they are needed (given the huge amount of Experts in the army, i.e. sappers and siege engineers, i'd guess that the tunnel/underground option is the karmeinian army's preferred option), or teleported in.

Additionally anything that can be infiltrated or somehow put beyond the killing ground would be. So tunnels, teleporting etc. Much harder to rush at something if it can blow you up by the hundred. Even better would be magic items or spells that can block LoS and LoE to give 'cover' to advancing troops, or destroy enemy fortifications in some way (thus sappers).

Alchemical items and nets and the like would be used more than historical warfare because killing enemies is so much harder (takes longer, more hits, sometimes they are monsters that have 140 hp etc) that disabling or confusing them is a better goal.




EDIT: DnD warfare makes a lot more sense when you think of it as WWII, not Medieval-era warfare.

Monsters = Tanks (this includes some kinds of humanoids with the right classes, like a Cavalry Charger Fighter, or a Juggernaught Warforged) - absolutely terrifying to infantry, huge, hard to kill and kill-ey, but without the range of an artillery piece, and without the maneuverability of a plane

Wizards = Machine-guns and mortars and recoilless rifles. Infantry support weapons, and able to kill tanks with sustained fire.

Circles of wizards/specialized higher level wizards = Artillery. Able to hit things from very, very long range, very, very hard. Notable in that they are usually more accurate than WWII artillery, but have a hard time spotting targets without scrying

Diviners = Spotter balloons/aerial observation planes

Archer Fighter/Archer Ranger = Sniper. More effective than regular WWII sniper, but still fill the same hitting high-value targets from a long way away role. Notable in that they shut down mortar/machine guns in the same way in both fantasy warfare and WWII - by killing the operator. With 20-50 regular archers and the Missile Volley teamwork benefit, they become an anti-tank gun or machinegun.

Clerics = Bunkers. Bunkers protect your troops, make them less vulnerable to artillery and mortar fire, and help you defend a position or advance. Most cleric spells that help in warfare are about protecting troops or setting up a zone that is hard to screw with magically. They can also be lesser wizards with the right domains, and are harder to kill than wizards thanks to defensive spells with longer durations, DMM: Persist, and Full Plate Armour.

Planes = nearly anything can be aerial with a mount, but the most common kind is wizards on birds, being the machine-guns and rocket-bombs of a fighter plane, while the bird is the engine and wings. Just as fragile as it's WWII namesake, protected by speed and abjurations. A bomber variant can be anything with high lift capacity and flight dropping alchemy and rocks from the high sky, or it can be a flying creature with a tank in it's claws.

[Yahzi]

The Eternal Bard is purposely holding back, hoping for a battle where the tides will turn repeatedly.
Then the only way to defeat him... is to not fight.

Surely one of your clerics has enough wisdom to figure this out.

[Rejakor]

He just personally murdered the royal family of a kingdom.


Good ****ing Luck.

[Slipperychicken]

He isn't technically a 30th level wizard. He's a level 30 character with 20 levels in wizard.

But.. he has 30 caster levels toward his Wizard spells and Epic Spellcasting, so it's a moot point. Just like this battle; the only meaningful variable is whether the Wizard wants to win it.