Conjuration without calling - how strong is it

[ahenobarbi]

Conjuration is often considered the strongest school in 3.5 with transmutation coming closely second. But a lot of that power comes from calling spells. If calling spells were removed would it still be the most powerful? Sure it's definitely a good one but wouldn't transmutation be stronger?

[Darrin]

Conjuration is often considered the strongest school in 3.5 with transmutation coming closely second. But a lot of that power comes from calling spells. If calling spells were removed would it still be the most powerful? Sure it's definitely a good one but wouldn't transmutation be stronger?

Conjuration (Calling) break the game mainly via wish or gate loops. If you take that away you still have:

1) Orbs. Ranged touch attack, no save, no SR. Mailman still has his "I Win" button.

2) Summons, AKA "hide behind my army of meatbag monsters". Still allows Golden Desert Honey (standard-action summons), conjure ice beast (access to both SM and SNA lists), and various SLA abuses.

3) Infinite money via major creation, wall of salt, etc. Infinite money = infinite wishes/gates, so your Nerf becomes meaningless.

[Psyren]

There would also still be teleportation, the sheer utility of which is hard for any other school to match.

[ahenobarbi]

Conjuration (Calling) break the game mainly via wish or gate loops. If you take that away you still have:

1) Orbs. Ranged touch attack, no save, no SR. Mailman still has his "I Win" button.

2) Summons, AKA "hide behind my army of meatbag monsters". Still allows Golden Desert Honey (standard-action summons), conjure ice beast (access to both SM and SNA lists), and various SLA abuses.

3) Infinite money via major creation, wall of salt, etc. Infinite money = infinite wishes/gates, so your Nerf becomes meaningless.

Yes but Transmutation keeps polymorph (and friends) shenigans (and flesh to salt to break economy) and it has lots of it's own goodies, wouldn't those be more powerful than what you pointed?

Also I'm not trying to nerf anyone I'm just wondering. Boring story follows:
I was playing with build ideas and wondered how powerful would be a focused conjurer who banned 4 schools (4th for PrC). And decided not to use Calling spells (good character, so calling good/neutral creatures and debuffing them feels wrong and calling evil is risky because... well bringing powerful evil creatures).

And that led to the question I'm asking. And yes I do know the character would be very powerful anyway.

[Blue Lantern]

It would probably reduce the gap but I still think the Conjuration remains ahead.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Calling has always been what makes conjuration a game smasher, but it's never been the most important aspect of the school. Summoning can do most of what calling can do, it just does it on a much shorter term.

Basically, unless you were planning on abusing calling otherwise, throwing it out won't have much impact.

Now if you dropped both calling and summoning it'd be about on par with transmutation. I couldn't say which of the two was better at that point.

Of course, one can't ignore the synergy between the two. A few of the summoning augmentations followed by a round or two of buffing your summon with transmutations just before you kick in the door can make a mess.

Btw, you do know that if you cast planar binding to call a celestial creature without the binding trap and have a civil conversation with it, you may be able to engage its services without being an interdimensional kidnapper, right? If your DM role-plays them properly the worst that -should- happen is they decline your offer and go home.

[ericgrau]

If you remove all the TO stuff conjuration still has great battlefield control for PO.

In general I wouldn't bother with addressing TO. It's very rare for a player to pull an infinite loop, call an abusive monster or other such thing and if he does the real solution is a new player not another rule the high optimizer can figure out how to work around.

[Darrin]

There would also still be teleportation, the sheer utility of which is hard for any other school to match.

Ah, forgot about that. 4) would be Teleportation Circle/Teleportation traps = Tippyverse. And Tippyverse can still feed itself with Create Food traps.

[Unusual Muse]

Sculptable battlefield control is awesome.

[ahenobarbi]

Thanks everyone I thought conjuration still would be better but with all the goodies of transmutation (um.. celerity?) I wasn't quite sure.


Btw, you do know that if you cast planar binding to call a celestial creature without the binding trap and have a civil conversation with it, you may be able to engage its services without being an interdimensional kidnapper, right? If your DM role-plays them properly the worst that -should- happen is they decline your offer and go home.

Thanks I somehow missed that possibility :smallsmile:

[Spuddles]

Calling definitely makes Conjuration the winner amongst the schools, at least until you've got Shapechange and get Calling effects via alternate forms. Just the versatility in planar binding things with great SLAs to pretty much be slaves is amazing.

Without calling you still have the summoning subschool, and there's a fair amount to work with, both as utility and in combat. Typically, summoned monsters for combat are best used as grapplers. They're shy on the HP relative to the damage they'll likely be taking from full attacks, and have abysmal AC.

The teleportation subschool offers pretty much unparalleled ability to travel far, with great accuracy and precision. With some of the transposition spells, you've got utility and combat shenanigans to work with.

Creation subschool lets you make something from nothing, so hey, walls of stone and iron and sand and salt and so on. It lets you make your own pocket dimensions and demiplanes, which is pretty tits. Also ends up being surprisingly reliable damage, given the SR: No tags on it. The orb spells and stuff like flaywind burst are both worth mentioning. Mind, you should probably put a little metamagic reduction on that so you don't spend an action and a spell slot to basically look like a chump for a round, with chump change damage.

Healing subschool isn't a big deal for arcane casters.

And then you get the battlefield control stuff- web, grease, glitterdust, solid fog, acid fog, freezing fog, black tentacles. I am sure there's some other ridiculous stuff out there, like blizzard. On their own, these spells will just slow something down for a few rounds, but with a buddy there to hurt it, or using it to divide and conquer, you get to turn most combats into fights on your terms. That's really huge. A solid fog or sickening cloud or any of their bigger cousins, when applied correctly, is a force multiplier. A really big one.

So I would consider conjuration just as busted even without Calling, as any time you're using Calling, you're basically getting into real broken territory. Planar Binding is almost like being able to take the leadership feat multiple times, but not worrying about level adjustment or sharing loot.

[mattie_p]

Side note, and unrelated (somewhat) to the concept of the thread, but what if a specialist conjurer had to ban transmutation, and vice versa? Thoughts on that?

[Psyren]

Side note, and unrelated (somewhat) to the concept of the thread, but what if a specialist conjurer had to ban transmutation, and vice versa? Thoughts on that?

They'd both still be T1. Even a wizard who bans both of them still has Illusion, Necromancy and Evocation to target all three saves etc.

[Keld Denar]

I've been playing a 12-15th level Batman wizard I'm a very high optimization game on another forum. Focused specialist conjurer. I have yet to cast a single [Calling] spell, and we are doing just fine. Most control is done with conjuration and necromancy, with buffs coming from transmutation, and burst damage coming from conjuration and necromancy.

Works well so far.

[chaos_redefined]

I'd be a lot less likely to specialize in conjuration/transmutation.

Chances are, I'd be looking at Divination, Necromancy or Illusion. Possibly Evocation, if enough splat is in play.

In a party with a cleric, Focused Evoker with Necro, Abjuration and Enchantment banned. (Cleric is stuck taking care of dispelling, but meh) If there isn't enough splat to give the evoker the good options, then normal specialized Diviner or Illusionist with Evocation and/or Enchantment banned.

In a party with noone capable of dispelling/magic-circle-ing/prot.-from-X-ing, then Illusionist or Diviner with Evocation and/or Enchantment banned.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Side note, and unrelated (somewhat) to the concept of the thread, but what if a specialist conjurer had to ban transmutation, and vice versa? Thoughts on that?

That would have no effects on the power of the respective schools, of course, but it would somewhat decrease the potential power of specialist wizards in these schools. On the other hand, as Psyren indicated, these wizards would still be potentially extremely powerful, so it does not solve anything, it is only restrictive. It's the 3.0 mechanism 3.5 steered away from for that reason, I like to think. A conjurer with a knack for transmutation can make for a great wizard without becoming a cheesy DM-nightmare.

More on-topic: I see calling as nothing more than the candles lighting the sprinkles on top of the thick icing covering the fat cake that is conjuration. It is one of the aspects of conjuration that happens very little in the games I am involved in, and in the cases it does, it is most of the time done for all the right reasons without abusing its potential. Of course there is room for RAW abuse, but does it really happen at the average table? And if it does happen at a table, isn't that because the people involved enjoy the style of play (in other words, what is the problem)?

[mattie_p]

They'd both still be T1. Even a wizard who bans both of them still has Illusion, Necromancy and Evocation to target all three saves etc.

I don't dispute that, the two schools are powerful enough on their own. I'm looking at vague comparisons with a, say, specialist enchanter, who bans necromancy and evocation. I'm just curious on balance thoughts, it might turn into a houserule eventually. In other words, trying to see if I can get any specialist wizards into the game who aren't transmuters or conjurers.

[nedz]

Side note, and unrelated (somewhat) to the concept of the thread, but what if a specialist conjurer had to ban transmutation, and vice versa? Thoughts on that?

The task then becomes to Call something which can do your Transmutations for you.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

I don't dispute that, the two schools are powerful enough on their own. I'm looking at vague comparisons with a, say, specialist enchanter, who bans necromancy and evocation. I'm just curious on balance thoughts, it might turn into a houserule eventually. In other words, trying to see if I can get any specialist wizards into the game who aren't transmuters or conjurers.

As I indicated, I think the houserule would be unnecessarily restrictive. However, if you only see conjurers and transmuters at your table, I can understand your sentiment. While I have built and played many a conjurer and transmuter, I have played/built abjurers, diviners, enchanters, illusionists and necromancers as well. Just as much fun and about as powerful, but with different flavour. Isn't flavour what makes the character (wizard) in the end? Aren't all characters variations of the 'big/small pointy stick/object' or 'some weird gestures and ...', and isn't the flavour, the small accents in a mechanical and fluff sense, what seperates them?

[Acanous]

I usually play focused specialist Illusionists, who ban Evocation, Enchantment and Necromancy.
You can do so much with Illusion, Divination, Conjuration and Transmutation.
Pretty much anything you dang well please, really.

[Tvtyrant]

If I was trying to make the various schools even out, I would make a Summoning/Calling School (calling would work differently though; extremely expensive components which change depending on what you are calling and no Gate), Conjuration School (everything else in conjuration except teleport line), Polymorph School (no Shapechange, Polymorph is capped at HD 20 but an 8th level spell, Alter Self is 4th level spell, all of the polymorph subschool), Transmutation School (normal but with Polymorph stuff ripped out), merge Evocation and Abjuration, leave the rest as they are.

Doesn't make the casters much weaker of course, but it would make the schools more even IMO.

[Alleran]

If I was trying to make the various schools even out, I would make a Summoning/Calling School (calling would work differently though; extremely expensive components which change depending on what you are calling and no Gate), Conjuration School (everything else in conjuration except teleport line), Polymorph School (no Shapechange, Polymorph is capped at HD 20 but an 8th level spell, Alter Self is 4th level spell, all of the polymorph subschool), Transmutation School (normal but with Polymorph stuff ripped out), merge Evocation and Abjuration, leave the rest as they are.
On the note of teleportation, I'd probably tear it out of Conjuration and make it universal. It doesn't remove it entirely, but it does render it somewhat moot in terms of school specialisation.

[Blue Lantern]

Originally Posted by Tvtyrant
If I was trying to make the various schools even out, I would make a Summoning/Calling School (calling would work differently though; extremely expensive components which change depending on what you are calling and no Gate), Conjuration School (everything else in conjuration except teleport line), Polymorph School (no Shapechange, Polymorph is capped at HD 20 but an 8th level spell, Alter Self is 4th level spell, all of the polymorph subschool), Transmutation School (normal but with Polymorph stuff ripped out), merge Evocation and Abjuration, leave the rest as they are.

Let me see, on the top of my head... with those changes Conjuration will still be the best school, even without summoning/calling there are just too many BFC spells in there to pass over; probably the same with trasmutation keeping it's second place.
The polymorph subschool would be kinda like never chosen as specialization but never removed as Alter Self, Polimorph and PaO (if it's still there) would be cherry picked, even with those nerfs they are worthwhile. Most likely the same for the calling shool, you wuld pick some summon monster here and there and ignore the rest and if you don't mind about summoning (or chose illusion) will be easy to abandon the school depending on the nefs on calling.
Joining abjuration and evocation will probably put it in a solid third place as it allow people to use the worthwhile evocations spell like continjency and wall of force more.
Illusion and necromancy (among with the new calling I guess) will share the second to last place and it is mostly a coin toss which one to keep (it will depend mostly on your role, I will personally put illusion on the top but I don't like necromancy much anyway)
Enchantement will be left out in the cold, now officially the weakest school, expecially at high levels with too few worthwhile spells.
Divination can not be touched anyway so it's a moot point.

Long story short, I doubt your changes will put the schools on equal terms, doing that will be an arduous and long process that will likely request a lot of changes to the spell, best wishes to whomever would like to try that.