[PFS] Building a Master Grappler?

[RndmNumGen]

I know that grappling becomes increasingly inefficient as characters level up, but I would still like to make a character that focuses on grappling. For RP reasons, I would like to be Lawful, so Barbarian is unfortunately out with it's sweet Strength Surge. Instead, I was thinking about a Tetori Monk, going down the Snapping Turtle Style before being able to pick up the nice grapple feats later down the line like Body Shield.

That said, looking at Tetori, I see several pros/cons:

Pros:

Lots of Bonus Grapple feats, many of them early.
Class abilities which enhance grappling.
Full BAB(for the purpose of grappling).
Speed boost, for closing in on good grapple targets like casters.

Cons:

Still MAD, like all Monks.
No Armor.
One-trick pony. Even loses Flurry of Blows, so outside of a grapple can only punch people with moderate effectiveness.


So, would my best bet be to go with this, or is there a better option available? I will only be going up to level 12, where monsters have an average CMD of 35, and remember, the character must be Lawful. In addition, are there any neat Grapple-related tricks I should look in to? I know there is the Heirloom Weapon trait ("These fists have been passed down the Fistbeard family for generations!") for a +2 to grapple checks, but what else is there?

EDIT: Oh yeah, what race? I was thinking Dwarf. No STR bonus, but does get both CON and WIS, which are highly desirable stats, and dumps CHA, which I completely don't care about. INT is my only other possible dump, but I would still like SOME skill points.

[crobledo]

So, another way to do this that I thought of is to go Monk 1/Druid X for a pretty sweet grappler.

Monk 1 gets you IUS for free, as well as Improved Grapple, and lets you actually do something when you can't grapple. After that, go Druid (snake shaman). Monks and Druids have some nice ability synergy, and are MAD in the same stats, so no problems there. Get a constrictor snake Animal Companion.

For the first few levels, you can grapple, and have the snake Aid Other your grapple attempts. Later levels, when the constrictor is large, you might even consider to do it backwards, and you aid the snake instead. Even better, against weaker mooks you can each grab and pin one! Just make sure to snag Boon Companion at 5 to make sure the snake is at max capacity.

If you have access to the ARG and a nagaji boon, you could even try something similar with the naga aspirant archetype instead of snake shaman.

Grappling usually tops out at around level 10-11, but since it's a PFS character anyway you should be ok.

[Feralventas]

I did a pretty solid grappler via PF's White-haired Witch archetype, with some Fighter and Eldritch Knight. Helped that I was allowed to dip Bear Totem Barbarian and pick up Extend Reach from Savage Species, but it can be done quite effectively on pure PF. (especially with the Final Embrace feat line).

It may not fit your fluff though, as you'll be grabbing folks with your hair rather than actively grabbing and tearing folks to the ground, but it Does give spellcasting to keep up utilities in the mid and late game without sacrificing your grappling focus.

[RndmNumGen]

Hmm... interesting.

Druid: Compared with a pure Tetori, the big things I would be losing out on are BAB, Greater Grapple at 6th and Inescapable Grasp at 9th. In exchange, I get full Druid casting, an animal companion at 2nd, and wild shape at 5th. That seems like a good trade.

I have the ARG, but no Nagaji boon, so Naga Aspirant is out.

I'm curious about Snake Shaman though. There are very few snakes that can be wildshaped into at all, and fewer who would be good at grappling. Really it's just the constrictor snake, the venomous snake, and the emperor cobra. You can't even get Constrict until Druid 6(so 7 for us), at which point you can probably afford Anaconda's Coils, a belt which grants Constrict to the wearer all the time anyway. And Wildshape snakes only go up to Large. Wouldn't something that can make us Huge at 6 be better?

Witch: The fluff for this actually fits my original concept better than the druid, which is nice(I was thinking about being Chelaxian). Once again, lose the full BAB, early Greater Grapple and Inescapable Grasp. We also become even more MAD. We do gain full Witch casting, reach, Constrict at level 2(awesome), and... herm... trips and pulls, which are less awesome.

I guess full witch with no monk is an option, but the witch doesn't really get anything awesome for grappling past level 2, though the stuff they get at 1 and 2 is pretty sweet.

I'm kind of tempted to take 2 levels of witch and do the rest Tetori, but then I still don't get Greater Grapple till 8th and Inescapable until 11th. That seems a little lackluster. Also, as I said before we're MAD up the wazoo here.

Hrm...

[Feralventas]

Well, if all you want is Grapple and Constrict, I'd say it's Worth it to take witch to 4 where you get the larger reach, maybe 5 for 3rd level spells, then you hit Fighter2 for the bonus feats and BAB and such before going Eldritch Knight for more BAB and bonus feats and spell progression, while dipping Monk for those features if you want them still.

So, if 10ft reach isn't enough, you Enlarge yourself for 15ft base reach, as well as +2 size bonus to strength and +2 size bonus to grapple (or +4 in 3.5D&D). You have a decent BAB from dipping fighter, and your grappling is all based off of INT because you're using the hair for it, so all you really need is Int and Con, maybe Dex for AC, but between picking up a Monk's Robe for Wisdom to AC, and simple Mage Armor, you should be fine on that front. If you're really worried about it, pick up Craft Wondrous Item for Natural and Insight and Deflection bonuses to AC.

The main reason to go pure Tetori monk is to neutralize Freedom of Movement, and if you Have freedom of movement you can keep up with the folks that have it And have spellcasting to neutralize some of their other methods rather than simply taking it away with the hopes that your saves and SR keep them from wrecking you via other methods.

For example, if your foe knows you like to wrestle, they may summon creatures to let you do exactly that; while they bombard you from a safe distance. On the other hand, if they summon allies, your party faces his, and you can use illusions or other summons before moving on to throttle the 'caster and strangle them while hitting them with Dispelling Critical (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dispelling-critical-critical), Dispelling Fist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dispelling-fist), or Destructive Dispelling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/destructive-dispel) once you can make the pre-requisites and take away their Freedom of Movement along with a number of other buffs that might have saved them from your menacing man-handling.

[RndmNumGen]

Well, it's PFS, so it caps at 12 and Craft Wonderous Item and all of those Dispelling feats are right out. I didn't notice the Reach on the witch though; that's a definite reason to hit 4th. And, as you said, 5th gives 3rd level spells. I think I still want a level or two of Monk for all of the bonus feats though, as they get more than Fighter.

[Feralventas]

Ah, I'm sorry I wasn't aware PFS stopped at 12, but I see that it'd make half that post moot >.>;.

That said, I've just looked over some of the options you've been looking at.

Witch 5 would be nice, but if you don't need Dispel Magic or Fly (via patron) then 2nd level spells would be a nice touch on a demi-gish as well as provide plenty of utilities to round out an otherwise combat-focused character, maybe as emergency healing or charm-boosting for interactions should the party not have someone dedicated to those roles (or if they drop). Tetori Monk, because of the bonus feats and grapple features, would actually be sensible up to 4, and possibly 5, but probably not all at once (not to mention that you might be able to swing the hair as an Unarmed attack as it's a part of your body and therefore up your damage from d4+int to d6 and then d8, possibly 10 via Monk's Robe). The core Fighter2 for 1st and 2nd level bonus feats as well as d10HD and BAB would definitely help facilitate it. (Unarmed Fighter archetype isn't terrible, as it gives you a free Style feat and Improved Unarmed Combat, but you'll have the latter for free via Monk and Harsh Training for Bravery is nifty but negligible.)

So, what I'd suggest is to start out as a high int, high wisdom Monk at 1st level, then Witch at 2nd and each of your Even levels with Fighter between until you've gotten to 5 (monk1/witch2/fighter2) at which point you switch to witch on even and Monk on odd, so the final result will be Monk5/Witch5/Fighter2, with BAB of 7, but BAB 9 for the purpose of grappling, which you use your Int for, Excellent fortitude and will saves, decent reflex, unarmored AC via Wisdom and Mage Armor, 3rd level spells, viable damage and area-control, plenty of capacity to grab, grapple and hold, and plenty of skill points because lawl high int.

If I'm reading this right anyway. I'm terrible at char-op so be warned and ask for additional opinions, but it should work, just might need a round or two of preparation to guarantee success.

[doko239]

I'm surprised that nobody's suggested this yet, but a Summoner with a Serpentine Eidolon would serve your purposes very well.

[Blyte]

dip white haired witch + tetori monk, allowing you to grapple 2 enemies. since your hair does not give you the grappled condition.

[Pharmalade]

I suggest you pick up a fighter. You'll get full BAB progression and the ability to use armor. Of course, any other class you get that has light armor can take what I'm about to suggest.

Out of Ultimate Equipment, you have two armor properties that are pretty silly. There's the Brawling property, a +1 priced bonus that gives you an untyped +2 to grapple checks, and attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes. It applies only to light armor. There's another bonus called Adhesive which gives you a further +2 to grapples.

The unarmed fighter is an archetype built to grapple. You get Improved Unarmed Strike as a replacement bonus feat as mentioned. The Brawler and Cad archetypes also give you some bonuses in which you may be interested. Brawler in particular has a weapon training progression that gives your unarmed strikes a good damage boost.

As your 9th level feat, I recommend Rapid Grapple. You can get someone to the Pinned condition very quickly with that feat.

[grarrrg]

May as well throw this out there too:
Maneuver Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/maneuver-master) Monk.
Sadly, Maneuver Master does not stack with Tetori.

[RndmNumGen]

Summoner isn't great since the Eidolon has low STR, needs to take IUS and Grapple manually, can't wear magic items aside from amulets and Grab can only be used against Small or smaller enemies.

I'm starting to really like the White-Haired Witch + Tetori combination. Can the Witch chose to simply start a grapple w/o attacking on foes with high AC though?

Tetori Monk is far better than Fighter for grappling in almost every way. I do actually like the Brawling and Adhesive properties, but if it came down to it I would almost prefer to just wear light armor on a monk and give up the AC bonus and fast movement.

I do like Flurry of Maneuvers, but to me Maneuver Master gives up too much power for only a moderate boost in flexibility.

[Occasional Sage]

I recommend using PF's Oread race and investing the feats to get Earth Glide, to move and then leave your grapples in the middle of solid rock.

[Feralventas]

Anyone can initiate a grapple, and with the Reach you can potentially avoid the Attack of Opportunity that comes from doing so without Improved Grapple or Improved Grab. Or you can just take those feats, at which point you make a touch attack to make contact, then roll your CMB attack, and grapple away.

If you want to take the Fighter part out, you can probably go Witch/Monk until 10 and go to Tetory7.

[RndmNumGen]

So, doing a little more research into White Haired Witch, it seems the archtype is a little borked. She uses INT to grapple, for example, but still uses STR to actually hit targets with the attack. Combined with half BAB, I'll be hard pressed to even hit targets to start the grab.

Because of this, I'm looking back to either Tetori 1/Druid X(Thinking about Bear Shaman now), or just straight Tetori.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I would go with a Tetori combined with Ultimate Magic's Qinggong (because why not go Qinggong). It's not a creative build, but if you're going to grapple people, it will be handy if you can use 1 ki point to ignore freedom of movement and 2 points to grapple creatures larger than you.

If you're thinking Dwarf: Why not Duergar (If that is allowed, I'm not familiar with PFS rules)?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Synthesist Summoner is best at it long term if you can fit in the dungeon. The size increases give massive str boosts, on top of being able to cast enlarge person on yourself/suit, ability score evo for more str, and lots of natural attacks, lots of reach, and you can add the grab attack to them, too.

Oh, and pounce.

It does start off rough...for grappling. Still starts out at level 1 w/ 3 attacks and pounce and a double hp pool...


Summoner isn't great since the Eidolon has low STR,

Mediocre, not low. At level 1. It quickly gets better.


needs to take IUS and Grapple manually,

So? Spend the feats. Or dip for them.


can't wear magic items aside from amulets and Grab can only be used against Small or smaller enemies.

None of this is true. Can't wear armor or slots the summoner is wearing items, that's about it for restrictions.

[RndmNumGen]

In my previous post, I was specifically referencing normal summoner, for which all of that is true. Normal Eidolons have limited feats, can't dip other classes, and can't wear non-amulets(unless it's a Biped, but then you can't get Pounce OR Constrict).

All of that works with Synthesist because Synthesist breaks all of the rules and lets you do everything - which I admit, is pretty cool. However, Synthesist isn't allowed in PFS, so regardless of how good it is, it won't work.

[StreamOfTheSky]

In PFS, best class for any kind of maneuver is probably Lore Warden Fighter. Gets a straight up +2 to all CMB and CMD every 4 levels or so, has full BAB, and depending on the maneuver / attack method, might be able to apply weapon training (and gloves of dueling) bonus to his CMB as well.

[King_Lem]

In my PF game, one of the PCs is playing a human Tetori monk. With a high Wis and Str score, he can single-handedly tie up any opponent he wants for an entire combat. This turns combats into a rolling grapple-fest with the rogue following along getting free sneak attacks.

This may later be slowed down with things getting Freedom of Movement and reactionary teleportation, but up to this point he has been able to make combats a rather easy matter for the party.

So, if you want a grappler, go Tetori monk.

[Squirrel_Dude]

This may later be slowed down with things getting Freedom of Movement and reactionary teleportationYeah, about that. . .

"Inescapable Grasp (Su)
At 9th level, a tetori can spend 1 point from his ki pool to suppress his opponents’ freedom of movement and magical bonuses to Escape Artist or on checks to escape a grapple. At 13th level, this ability also duplicates the effect of dimensional anchor. At 17th level, the tetori’s unarmed strike gains the ghost touch special ability, and an incorporeal creature that he strikes gains the grappled condition (Reflex negates, DC 10 + 1/2 the wrestler’s level + his Wisdom modifier). Inescapable grasp is a swift action and lasts until the beginning of the wrestler’s next turn."

In short: Once he grabs you, he doesn't let go.

[StreamOfTheSky]

That duration is pitifully short...

Ki doesn't grow on trees.

...Unless you're an evil Qinggong Monk of level 11+. Then you can just take Ki Leech power and keep captives alive in bags of holding to nonlethally beat the snot out of (coup de grace) between combats to replenish ki.

But most games probably wouldn't like the idea of torturing creatures for power ups. And most DMs would oddly see that as cheesy even though a monk with that is still less powerful than low level spells.

[Squirrel_Dude]

That duration is pitifully short...

Ki doesn't grow on trees.

...Unless you're an evil Qinggong Monk of level 11+. Then you can just take Ki Leech power and keep captives alive in bags of holding to nonlethally beat the snot out of (coup de grace) between combats to replenish ki.

But most games probably wouldn't like the idea of torturing creatures for power ups. And most DMs would oddly see that as cheesy even though a monk with that is still less powerful than low level spells.Honestly, though, who isn't a Qinggong monk? You replace what you don't want, and keep the rest. It's kind of awesome.

But yeah, the duration is terribly short, but it's a problem all grappling characters have; what you do if someone can't be grabbed. At least the tetori monk has some kind of response, and the party caster doesn't need to help him with.

I also know about that synthesist summoner build you suggested. My roomate is drawing one up for an upcoming campaign. At level 10, his lowest saving throw bonus is +15 with 38 AC. It's an insane build, and would by no means be a terrible option for a martial character.

I would also recommend, if you're looking at taking vows and taking some Qinggong monk stuff, that you take the Vow of Silence and the Vow of Truth. Then take the Share Memories ki power (0 ki points to use) so you can still talk to people.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, being a Qinggong Monk isn't the problem with that, of course. It's the being evil and torturing others for power thing. And having to deal with the likelihood of a DM finding it cheesy.

[Blyte]

yes, the WhiteHairedWitch uses INT bonus on grapple checks, but it's a free action when you "hit", so at 8th level when you get grab as a tetori you can then attack, grapple as a free action (str), then grapple again as a free action (int).. then when you get rapid grapple you can attack(standard), grapple(str)(free), grapple(int)(free), then grapple(str)(move)

if you manage to pin with your hair, you can then lose the grapple condition and attempt a grab on a 2nd creature with your primary attack. You in effect become a Chull.

there are also many manacle and rope magic items I've run into in games, and an alternative to pinning and damaging with more successful grapples is to "tie up" which force creatures to make escape artist checks, which aren't easy for some.

also I recommend using a tonfa which is a "heirloom weapon".. the base tonfa confers a bonus to grapple checks and heirloom confers an additional +2 trait bonus to grapple checks.

edit: bah, it appears tonfa was changed from buffing grapples, and now gives shield bonus to fighting defensively. or I am remembering this trick wrong and I was using a tonfa in a crane style build. either way I definitely recommend crane if you have the feats, because with the body shield feat you can easily make them miss you and hit your grapple victim. and at least the trait bonus from heirloom is still nice to have.

if you are lucky you can get your DM to allow agile maneuvers to work both with str to dex and int to dex. Since the feat was made pre-WHW. then your build becomes SAD, and you can shoot for an agile amulet of mighty fists and dominate the battle field.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Well, being a Qinggong Monk isn't the problem with that, of course. It's the being evil and torturing others for power thing. And having to deal with the likelihood of a DM finding it cheesy.If he bans that you could always be a Qinggong Drunken Master. Because that's not cheesy...

I'm just not sure Ki-dependency in specific situations is such a big deal. If the wizard/cleric can deal with it at the moment then you don't have to use it. I'm just repeating the same argument, though. Your worries about a DM not wanting a player to not be cheesy to do that are obviously legitimate. Being evil is another bag all on its own.


Quick question: Is there an easy way around freedom of movement other than a targeted dispelling/antimagic field, etc?

Dimension Door obviously has plenty of spells based around preventing teleportation, and if something is incorporeal then you hit it with force effects. What is the counter to freedom of movement.

[StreamOfTheSky]

There is no counter to Freedom of Movement, other than the brute force methods you listed.

Dim Door is less of a nuissance because the DC to cast in a grapple is stupidly, obscenely high in PF. So only an issue with Teleport subschool wizards and outsiders who get it as a Su ability.

So Tetori is mostly good for countering FoM and the rare things that can Su teleport. I consider that too narrow for all the CMB you lose compared to being a Lore Warden or such, as well as delay on feat qualification due to the lower BAB.

[Invader]

Play a Druid and convince your DM to let you apply the greenbound template to your animal forms instead of your summons. Shapechange into a brown and proceed to grapple everything to death... :smallamused:

[StreamOfTheSky]

Polymorph and Wildshape was significantly nerfed from 3E in PF, you know?

Not that a druid isn't still good in melee, but in case you didn't realize. Now wildshape's giving at best like a +6 to your existing str score, generally, you don't just turn into a dire bear and get str in the 30's.

[Blyte]

a level 8 maneuver master would be pretty slick. flurry of maneuvers = zip tied monster in 1 round.

you can also do it at level 4, but it would cost ki.

the 5th level ability to gain wisdom bonus to CMB is also very nice, and arguably better than strength surge for barbs (pre-rage cycling)

carry around a bunch of mithril chains (or adamantine) on your belt and just move around zip tying everything. I have found chains, fetters, manacles, etc which were enchanted with dimensional anchor in moduals, and they would be a nice addition to your arsenal as well.

human
1 agile maneuvers
1 improved grapple
1 weapon finesse
2 dodge
3 crane style 1
5 crane style 2
6 greater grapple
7 body shield

with this build, definitely use a heirloom tonfa (+1 ac and +2 grapple) and agile amulet of mighty fists.

weapon finesse, may not be necessary since you can simply make a grapple check to deal damage while something is grappled, but it would be nice to have against something you cannot grapple (slimes or something outside your size range)

typically a a tetori would be a better choice because they retain dex bonus while grappling, etc.. but since this build/style doesn't rely on maintaining grapples, you should be in good shape.

after level 8 it might be advantageous to switch to fighter, but staying monk isn't a bad option either.

I can't clearly see how well greater grapple and rapid grappler synergize with flurry of maneuvers. flurry seems like it can't be used in conjunction with greater grapple, and since rapid grappler requires greater grapple to trigger, it seems that rapid grappler might be a wasted feat. you might take scorpion style instead, so you can charge and scopion strike someone so they can't run away from your grapple attempt on the following round.

edit: actually you could of course just run up to them and grapple them (duh..) I guess piranha strike would be a superior choice.

[Squirrel_Dude]

There is no counter to Freedom of Movement, other than the brute force methods you listed.

Dim Door is less of a nuissance because the DC to cast in a grapple is stupidly, obscenely high in PF. So only an issue with Teleport subschool wizards and outsiders who get it as a Su ability.

So Tetori is mostly good for countering FoM and the rare things that can Su teleport. I consider that too narrow for all the CMB you lose compared to being a Lore Warden or such, as well as delay on feat qualification due to the lower BAB.Yeah, the tetori would be better if it kept it's flurry of blows ability so that it could at least do damage while someone was grappled.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You can't flurry while grappling. Just maintaining the grapple is a move action. That auto-fails if you roll a 1, since it's still an "attack roll."

While PF made the concentration DC to cast in a grapple, stupidly, irresponsibly hard, in every other respect grapple is mega-nerfed from 3E.

So flurry doesn't actually matter. If you want to keep someone grappled in PF, you can never make a full attack anyway.