liches be polymorphin'

[Venger]

okay, so, liches have a specific exemption in their text that says they can use polymorph effects (such as polymorph spells and wild shape) even though those normally only work on living creatures.

my question is:

since wild shape gives you the physical ability scores of your new form (say a bear or something) you would get its con

however, since wild shape does not change your type, you would retain the undead type (and thus the immunity to mind affecting, poison, blabla)

but the undead type carries with it no con.

I know that WS doesn't boost HP anymore, but a boost to con does help with your otherwise poor fort saves.

which of these two rules takes priority over the other? WS gives physical ability scores, or WS doesn't change type? I'm not sure how to apply "specific trumps general" here, since they're the same ability

is there some kind of third option where you retain the undead type and all its associated perks, but gain a con score (boosting your fort save) ?

[Blue Lantern]

I do not know if there is a rule or an errata about that somewhere, but usually when using spells to turn into an undead you get the null score, so I would get the polimorphed lich the COn of the creature, but that's just a personal opinion.

[Spuddles]

Druid polymorph works like alternate form, here are alternate form rules, bolded relevant bits:

Alternate Form

A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature:

The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.
The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.
The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form.
The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.
The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores.
Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.

[ArcaneGlyph]

Wonder what happens if you reduce its con bonus to 0 with drains while its morphed?

[Spuddles]

Wonder what happens if you reduce its con bonus to 0 with drains while its morphed?

Undead are immune to ability damage and drain. This is a function of their type (which doesn't change, despite alternate forms), not having a non-ability score.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Undead are immune to ability damage and drain. This is a function of their type (which doesn't change, despite alternate forms), not having a non-ability score.

Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution) only. A very important distinction.

[Spuddles]

Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution) only. A very important distinction.

Whoa, I never noticed that undead weren't immune to brain damage. Fascinating. Anything out there that can actually hurt their mental ability scores, other than ravages?

[Piggy Knowles]

Whoa, I never noticed that undead weren't immune to brain damage. Fascinating. Anything out there that can actually hurt their mental ability scores, other than ravages?

A rogue with Maiming Strike and either the Penetrating Strike ACF or the Grave Strike spell? Non-mind affecting Charisma damage with no save.

That being said... what happens when a lich wildshapes into something, gains a Con score, gets hit with Spark of Life, and then gets his Con drained to 0? (I know that it'll basically never happen, I'm just curious as to how it would be adjudicated.)

[Venger]

Whoa, I never noticed that undead weren't immune to brain damage. Fascinating. Anything out there that can actually hurt their mental ability scores, other than ravages?

good question. any spell (touch of idiocy) or power (ego whip) I can think of that deals mental ability damage is also mind affecting, which undead (even intelligent ones) are immune to.


A rogue with Maiming Strike and either the Penetrating Strike ACF or the Grave Strike spell? Non-mind affecting Charisma damage with no save.

That being said... what happens when a lich wildshapes into something, gains a Con score, gets hit with Spark of Life, and then gets his Con drained to 0? (I know that it'll basically never happen, I'm just curious as to how it would be adjudicated.)

good catch on maiming strike! that'd do it. don't forget truedeath crystals, they let you deal full SA to undead (plus ghost touch and an extra d6 if you can afford the full one)

a party would have to:
-find a lich that had the ability to wild shape
-watch him transform (assuming he doesn't just attack them after transforming, so they'll throw enervation and stuff at him)
-know somehow that he was using wild shape (which doesn't change type) instead of polymorph (which does) (true seeing, possibly)
-get close enough to land a touch attack on a creature with enough levels to be a lich that also has wild shape (can likely unlock some meaty forms, with reach too)
-have him fail his will save against a 3rd level spell


the kink here is that spark of life stipulates that since you've got no con, you can't take con damage.

it does however state that you are vulnerable to physical ability damage, so it depends on whether you read "it has no con. thus it can't take con damage" as having the second sentence be dependent on the first.

if you read it as physical ability scores being subject to damage including con, then it would appear that damaging/draining it to 0 would kill the undead (in possibly the strangest imaginable way)

if you read "its con can't be damaged" as applying regardless of whether it somehow has a temporary con score, then that won't work.

not sure I have a RAW solution