Advice for making a weaponless character (3.5)

[KOVAV]

Hey, I was wondering, what is the best way for making a combat viable character who uses no weapons, at level 15? my Game master is pretty leniant about what I can use supplement wise, but my only caveat is that all characters in game are geniunly important figures in their respective societies, so Vows of poverty, or being cripplingly lacking in INT or Charisma wont make huge amounts of sense. any advice?

[Zdrak]

Hey, I was wondering, what is the best way for making a combat viable character who uses no weapons, at level 15? my Game master is pretty leniant about what I can use supplement wise, but my only caveat is that all characters in game are geniunly important figures in their respective societies, so Vows of poverty, or being cripplingly lacking in INT or Charisma wont make huge amounts of sense. any advice?

Does a T-Rex count as a weapon? If it doesn't, go Druid.

[INoKnowNames]

Well, without weapons, you could go into unarmed combat, or use spells, and still be awesome... it's kinda an open question, don't you think?

[Hirax]

Monk2/psychic warrior13 with the tashalatora feat is a classic combo. Very fun to play in my experience.

[eggs]

Natural weapon builds can be efficient without much trouble.

I'd recommend either a Totemist or Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian/Fist of the Forest/Black Blood Cultist with the Beast Strike feat and Scorpion's Grasp.

(Totemist is Magic of Incarnum; if you're not familiar with the class, its excerpt is here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050907a&page=3), but you'll definitely need to access the book - it's probably the most complicated subsystem to learn. Fist of the Forest and Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian are in Complete Champion - the Barbarian variant gives pounce, the FotF class essentially compresses Monk into 3 levels with full BA and a Con-based AC boost,. Black Blood Cultist is from Champions of Ruin and gives natural weapons while Raging, as well as some big damage boosts at high levels; its handbook is here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870826/Black_Blood_Cultist_Handbook:_A_Grapplers_Manual). Beast Strike is a feat from Dragon Magazine #355 that adds claw damage to unarmed strikes. Scorpion's Grasp is a feat from Sandstorm that works like Improved Grab with less stringent size requirements.)

[Feralventas]

Option1, you are a non-combatant. This could be a spell-caster who isn't suited or doesn't much like fighting and attempts to support their allies through non-violent means such as buffing and healing effects. (Bard is great for this.)

Option2, you're a combatant that doesn't use conventional weapons, preferring to work with their open hands. Monk is a weaker method, but can work, especially as a dip class combined with either a 'casting class to augment their physical abilities (psionics and the tashalatora feat are great for this). There are also Fighter options for this, though they are rather meek. My suggestion would be Swordsage with a focus on Diamond Mind and Setting Sun schools of maneuvers; Diamond Mind is all about precision and perfection of action, while Setting Sun emphasizes using an opponent's strengths against them and flowing around them.

Option3, your weapons are your words or your mind, wielded in the form of spells, or in the form of other people manipulated to your will, or by aranging things such that you aren't ever in combat; this is a style more suited to a BBEG than a PC, but it can be done in the right game with the right group/DM, but I'd suggest asking them first how they feel about it. Assassinations via poisons and arranging accidents would be your forte and focus, and I'd suggest Factotem5/Chameleon10/Shadow-Hand-Swordsage5 for this method.

There are more, but I have to run to class and there's a whole forum of friendly, helpful folks to guide you to those. Good luck.

[Gavinfoxx]

I second the 'Be a T-Rex' bit of being a Druid. =D

Some solid forms at level 15 include:

Giant Banded Lizard
Dire Tortoise
Elephant
Grizzly Mastodon
Smilodon
Legendary Wolf
Dragonhawk
Giant Squid
Legendary Ape
Cave Tyrannosaurus

And remember, there are ways --including core ways-- for you to be able to communicate with the group while you are Wild Shaped. Which you should generally be, 24/7, at level 15.

[Coidzor]

Totemist (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=583.0), Brute-squad-style leader Necromancer (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5584.0), wildshape ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger)/Master of Many Forms (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19528526/updated_Master_of_Many_Forms_Bible__official_wild_ shape_rules) or plain old druid (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0), sneak attacking spellcaster (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240)...

Bard (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830)...

[avr]

Touch attack spells exist, and a cleric can be reasonably effective at delivering them. Alternately a gish; storm touch is a useful wizard spell for this sort of purpose. I'm kind of surprised no one's mentioned unarmed variant swordsages yet. That last is probably the most monk-ish version of this character type to be competitive at level 15.

What do you need to compete against though? You might also want to make it clear whether you want to be able to start a fight at the royal ball, or whether it's the whole Bruce Lee image which you're aiming for.

[KOVAV]

thanks for the advice all; At first I was definitely 100% looking for a nonmagic barehanded fighter, but the suggestions have kinda swayed me (I'm willing to be swayed, which is why I wasn't very detailed in my question) the being a godmamn t-rex thing is FREAKING awesome, so I am definitely liking that.....though, it starts in the city, and a druid is probably going to need some explaining (as in, he is not attacking the city)

The Concept for my charecter is one of the leaders of something that is part sparta part mafia, and part cult. He is supposed to be a genuinly scary indivudual, and brutal....ever, ever so brutal (I was asked to make a bad guy)......the bruce lee persona would be nice, but if useing magic or shapeshifting works allot better, I might do that....I mean, he should be feared for a reason.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Two words: Unarmed Swordsage. All the unarmed damage of a Monk, plus actually relevant class abilities. If you are wanting to do more of a Wuxai guy who can kick arse and chew bubblegum while making himself nearly immune to physical attacks... this is how you do it.

[Gavinfoxx]

The Concept for my charecter is one of the leaders of something that is part sparta part mafia, and part cult. He is supposed to be a genuinly scary indivudual, and brutal....ever, ever so brutal (I was asked to make a bad guy)......

Unarmed Swordsage, or doing the (lawful evil, of course) monk2/Ardent13 or Monk2/Psychic Warrior 13 with Tashalatora. Fits ganger concept a bit better. Maybe Wildshape Urban Ranger (not sure if those work together, though) into Master of Many forms if you wanna be a shapeshifter.

[KOVAV]

ok, thanks all, so, what the advantages of being a monk2/Ardent13 VS being a monk2/Psychic Warrior 13 with Tashalatora? what about unarmed sword saint? are they really able to make themselves almost invulnrable and kick arse? how do they do VS those other two?

[Threadnaught]

If your DM will let you use this Monk, it could lead to some interesting games. If everyone at the table has watched any of the Kung Fu Panda movies... Or played World of Kung Fu Pandacraft. Then your class will get a load of funny looks and comments whenever you mention anything about the Totem.

There's a Neutral and Chaotic variant, in case you're known for being less than lawful.

I found it in a google search for a "Harbinger of Destruction" yeah, I'm serious. :smallamused:


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12438857&postcount=1

[eggs]

ok, thanks all, so, what the advantages of being a monk2/Ardent13 VS being a monk2/Psychic Warrior 13 with Tashalatora? what about unarmed sword saint? are they really able to make themselves almost invulnrable and kick arse? how do they do VS those other two?
Psychic Warrior Advantages: Lots of feats; Powers list specifically tailored to a gish.
PsyWarrior Disadvantages: Slow powers known progression; absolutely starved for PP.
Ardent Advantages: Fast power progression (With Practiced Manifester, the Monk/Ardent build will have equivalent-leveled powers to a straightclassed Psion of the same ECL); very strong powers like Dimension Hop, Anticipatory Strike and Metamorphosis; the Dominant Ideal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) ACF absolutely breaks normal psionics limitations (just look at something like Dominant Ideal: Freedom Mantle + Dimension Hop + Linked Power; it's almost like Battle Blessing for full casters).
Ardent Disadvantages: Absolutely feat-strapped; the headache of mapping a legal progression of worthwhile Ardent powers known has been known to break small men.

I'd say either has a much higher power potential than the Swordsage - just the possibility of manifesting full-ML Astral Constructs and Metamorphoses is far more versatile and has far more gamebreaking potential than anything available to the Swordsage. But Swordsage is harder to screw up.

EDIT:

If your DM will let you use this Monk, it could lead to some interesting games.
Should there be a link in there somewhere?

[Gavinfoxx]

If your DM will let you use this Monk, it could lead to some interesting games. If everyone at the table has watched any of the Kung Fu Panda movies... Or played World of Kung Fu Pandacraft. Then your class will get a load of funny looks and comments whenever you mention anything about the Totem.

There's a Neutral and Chaotic variant, in case you're known for being less than lawful.

I found it in a google search for a "Harbinger of Destruction" yeah, I'm serious. :smallamused:

You forgot the link!

Personally, I like this homebrew monk best:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122

But I believe that all three builds (Unarmed Swordsage, the Ardent Tashalatora build, and the Psywar Tashalatora build) are slightly more powerful/versatile. Target power level of Tier 4 for the homebrew monk vs Tier 3 for the existing builds, right?

[Mystral]

I third the suggestion of playing an unarmed swordsage. It's everything the class monk should be. It plays just like a regular swordsage, but with a monks unarmed combat thrown in instead of swinging a greatsword.

[Snowbluff]

How do you feel about Thunderlance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258689)? SHAMELESS PLUG HOOOOO~!

[KOVAV]

Hy all! after looking at some of the charecter sheets of my fellows, it seems that my upcoming game will be of a pretty high level of optimization, so it seems that a druid is best. any advice on making a good level 15 druid? (also, I cant seem to find this urban druid, so what exactly is he?)

[KOVAV]

PS: I have heard some insane elan king of smack charecter, killing the daylights out of everyone. is there a level 15 human version of this wonderful deal?

[Snowbluff]

Playing a druid, huh? Just do straight up druid. They are a cookie cutter class in general.

Druid 15
1:Natural Bond
3: Extend Spell
6:Natural Spell
9: Improved Unarmed Strike
12: Multiattack
15: Frozen Wildshape

If Flaws are allowed, take Shape Soulmeld for more attacks (The one in Dragon Magic don't need to be bound, hint hint).

If you are feeling silly, dip a monk level and take VoP. Or just get a Monk's Belt and a Wilding clasp.

Frozen Wildshape for Cryohydra. Use a spell for flying, Bite of Weresomething (SpC), and Enhance Wildshape (SpC) for the Regeneration. Luminous Armor for Armor (BoED), and good ol' Barkskin for a bonus to Nat armor.

Get a Strand of Prayer Beads for a Bead of Karma.

[Snowbluff]

Sigh. Okay. Human king of smakc can suck pretty hard sometimes.

Psychic Warrior 15. Use the Mantled Warrior ACF for the Metamorphosis Power

Take Tashalatora (And it's prereqs) for some monk unarmed stuff. Then use Metaphysical Claws, Metamorphosis into something BIG. Then manifest Expansion (augment it) and make yourself REALLY BIG

The Beast Strike (Unarmed deals your claw damage as well), Snap Kick, Tashalatora (Gives FoB), and Improved Natural Weapon get you some massive hits in.

The actual king of smack is illegal. IIRC it asks you to polymorph (Metamorphosis) into somethign you can't do that with.

[eggs]

The original thread won't mention it on account of printing dates, but Thoon Elder Brain is about as good as Sharn, and without the polymorph-block. But that's hitting the point that it might be less a practical op trick, and more just abuse.

But also, Linked Power and Mantled PsyWar changed the landscape to make its schtick much easier to pull off.

[Kane0]

I'm pretty partial to homebrewing ways to use warlocks or warlock types in melee. Punching someone in the face with a fistful of Eldrtich Blast is now officially on my list :smallbiggrin:

[Snowbluff]

The original thread won't mention it on account of printing dates, but Thoon Elder Brain is about as good as Sharn, and without the polymorph-block. But that's hitting the point that it might be less a practical op trick, and more .

But also, Linked Power and Mantled PsyWar changed the landscape to make its schtick much easier to pull off.

Ooooh... Brains.

I did mention the Mantled Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a). You need it to manifest Metamorphosis. That, or the feat to teach yourself a power, which takes up a more valuable later level slot.


I'm pretty partial to homebrewing ways to use warlocks or warlock types in melee. Punching someone in the face with a fistful of Eldrtich Blast is now officially on my list :smallbiggrin:

Eldritch Claw and Beast Strike from Dragon Mag have already done it for you.

[Gavinfoxx]

For a Wild Shape focused Druid, here are important feats to get:

Natural Spell (PHB/SRD)
Dragon Wild Shape (Draconomicon)
Frozen Wild Shape (Frostburn)

If your character is Neutral Good, Exalted Wild Shape (Book of Exalted Deeds) is very useful

Assume Supernatural Ability (Savage Species) is very good, though many say you have to choose ONE supernatural ability from ONE form when you get that.

Multiattack (MM1/SRD)
Improved Natural Attack (MM1/SRD)

are also good for focusing on melee as a Druid

Of course things like Power Attack (PHB/SRD) are useful!

[Psyren]

Ooooh... Brains.

I did mention the Mantled Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a). You need it to manifest Metamorphosis. That, or the feat to teach yourself a power, which takes up a more valuable later level slot.

Point of order: Expanded Knowledge powers don't reduce any of the powers known that you get from your class. You will have to wait longer to learn Metamorphosis that way (13 as opposed to 10) but the power doesn't take up a slot in your powers known.

In fact, learning it from a Mantle WOULD take up one of your slots. (Though Metamorphosis is naturally worth it to do so with.)

[KOVAV]

Thanks all, I'm about ready to make my charecter, I just have one more question, and its kind of a theoretical thing. that is, determining what I could and could not change into if my DM ever has a balance lapse and lets me use shapechange. it says "The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD)" but monsters mostly have like, *dice*D*dice* to them, so, how do I calculate what I can turn to? do I average it?

[Psyren]

Thanks all, I'm about ready to make my charecter, I just have one more question, and its kind of a theoretical thing. that is, determining what I could and could not change into if my DM ever has a balance lapse and lets me use shapechange. it says "The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD)" but monsters mostly have like, *dice*D*dice* to them, so, how do I calculate what I can turn to? do I average it?

The first *dice* is what you look at. They're written in the format {# of dice}d{size of dice}. For example, if you wanted to Shapechange into a Unicorn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/unicorn.htm) (4d10+20), you'd only look at the "4" - it's less than 25, therefore you can do it.

[Threadnaught]

Should there be a link in there somewhere?

Yeah, just noticed my mistake. Added the link to the post.

[Feralventas]

Playing a druid, huh? Just do straight up druid. They are a cookie cutter class in general.

Druid 15
1:Natural Bond


Natural Bond doesn't boost Animal Companion past the druid's HD; wouldn't this be for a multi-class or PrC druid?

[Snowbluff]

Natural Bond doesn't boost Animal Companion past the druid's HD; wouldn't this be for a multi-class or PrC druid?

Depends on what level of math you are using. 15-3(lvl 4 companion)+3(Natbond)=15

15 !> 15

[Threadnaught]

Depends on what level of math you are using. 15-3(lvl 4 companion)+3(Natbond)=15

15 !> 15

Yea... No. I thought that at first, but then as I reread the Feat to make sure I got the wording right, I noticed it doesn't allow you to make your Effective Druid Level higher than your Character Level. An Animal Companion of equal level would require a higher EDL than your level. Though you could take it as Ranger and not exceed your level in EDL, considering your EDL is half your Class Levels in Ranger. The exact wording we're referring to is.


Add three to your Effective Druid level (not to exceed your Character level) for determining your Animal
Companion’s bonuses.

It's not about what maths you're using. It's about whether you've read the rules for using the Feat properly.

[Malroth]

AND read the rules for higher level animal companion properly, Taking a higher level animal companion counts as a penalty to effective druid level.

[Snowbluff]

AND read the rules for higher level animal companion properly, Taking a higher level animal companion counts as a penalty to effective druid level.

So if I take a penalty to my Druid level is DOESN'T go down?

[Gavinfoxx]

So if I take a penalty to my Druid level is DOESN'T go down?

Well, only if you choose one of the Druid - 3 animals. If you choose one of the druid - (any number higher than three), your animal is 3 druid levels higher than it would otherwise be. However, are you going to focus on having a crew of animals to follow you around, or personal melee wild shape awesomeness?

If you want to have three powerful animals following you around 24/7, you can do that -- but there is an opportunity cost to do so...