A question about Counterspelling

[OrlockDelesian]

Greetings. I've been a Dm for many many years (ever since I was 10 and my then group forced me to DM and got afflicted by the Dm disease).
I am familiar with most feats and spells both core and non-core, but I've yet to find an answer on a very simple question.
(Of course I could have missed it)
Can you counter a quickened or Immediate spell?
I know it doesn't says that you cannot but is it logical?
For example if you've readied an action to counterspell, if someone casts a Quickened Fireball can you counter it with a normal Fireball? Would you need a Quickened one as well? How about a quickened dispell magic? Or a normal one.

If It takes the same time as casting the spell to counter, wouldn't you need to be able to do it on the same time (appliyng quickened to your spell as well)

You see, counterspelling takes up your ready action, which can be used to ready a free action. But you must "specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it"

So, do you specifically have to say "I ready to counterspell a quickened spell"
or will "I ready to counterspell will work on both occations?" (again of course there is the debate on whether you can use a "normal" version or a quickened one.)

And what do you do with immediate actions? Say one character wants to use celerity. Can another character counter it with celerity since it is an immediate action as well? If he was ready to counterspell can he throw a normal dispell or would he need a quickened? And can you actually be ready for an Immediate action?

I need your opinions because after a 5 year long campaign, one of my players (now at 20th lvl) relies heavily on the combo Celerity-time stop and now I am the King.
I do not want to say to his face "ok I am baning this", because even though it is within my rights, this will start a huge debate about how I am targeting him and if i didn't want to let him do it why did I approve it etc etc (yeah not big funs of the "Sorry I'm Human and I made a mistake" line my players).

So any ideas?
any other suggestions? (short of you are the Dm tell him what you want or kill him -though it will come to that if everything else fails)

Thank you for reading.

PS: "You screwed up" is a valid answer, but if you want though a few ideas after that are welcome as well.

Nick

[Lost in books]

My humble opinion is simple. YOU are the DM!

What this means is, it is YOUR world. So if you rule that the laws of your universe dictate that counterspell works in every situation, then so be it.

As a DM you are the Alpha and Omega, the begining and the end, the creator and destroyer. So you never really mess up. You can always bring balance back into the game, because you are running the campaign and the players don't know what will happen in the world next. Here are some of my favorite examples I use when I DM. These are examples for your powerful lvl 20 players.

1. Remove the monopoly: Do your players think they are the only ones who can do what they do? Are they so arrogant to think that in the whole world they are the only ones who have come up with their chosen builds or spell combos? "Do unto others as you wish they do unto you"

2. Enemies are not stupid: While the random encounter is fun, some encounters should be built to challenge and yes, target the PCs. I assume that during their adventures they must have made at least one enemy. Some BBEG are quest or plot oriented, but what about that one whose sole purpose in life is to destroy the PCs in the most horrible and suffering way? Either by virtue of money or own power this antagonist can set bounties for the PCs and send minions capable of causing serious damage. This will show the PCs that being a one trick pony will eventually allow some enemies to prepare the proper counters. Of course these encounters have to be set up scarcely as not to incur the players "Oh you have it against me, this is not fair!" but it will make them realise that they need to be better prepared and come with various tactics for diferent scenarios. After all, they never know what they will face!

3. Attracting attention: Since they are in essence epic characters their expoits must be legendary and known not just accross the world, but the planes, alternate realities, and by gods. In other words use the line from Thor in the Avengers movie "Earth is ready for a higher level of War!" These PCs have reached so much power that the interplanar threaty designating Earth as a sanctuary for mosquitoes is cancelled and now it becomes fair play. "Time of troubles? That was a cake walk compared to what is to come!"

I hope these ideas help. I have a few more but I know you do too. Remember, you can't mess up as the DM. There is always a way to balance things! Good luck!

[ahenobarbi]

What does the player do in the time stop? If the character buffs a targeted dispel could bring the buffs down. Or the enemy could use the same combo. Also Ring of Spell-battle (from Complete Arcane) could ruin the combo.

[OrlockDelesian]

What does the player do in the time stop? If the character buffs a targeted dispel could bring the buffs down. Or the enemy could use the same combo. Also Ring of Spell-battle (from Complete Arcane) could ruin the combo.

Usually, he uses this combo:

Celerity (4th lvl)
Sudden Maximize Time stop (9th lvl)

The first round he loses due to the "daze" effect of the spell
2nd: Delayed (4 rounds) Evard's Black tentacles (7th lvl), Quickened Gr Blink (9th lvl)
3rd: Delayed (3 rnds) Cone of Cold substituted to sonic due to mastery of elements (8th lvl), Quickened spell turning (9th lvl)
4th:Delayed (2 rnds) Cone of Cold substituted to sonic due to mastery of elements (8th lvl), Quickened Improved invisibility
5th: Empowered Delayed blast fireball (1rnd) substituted to sonic due to mastery of elements (9th lvl), Quickened 1-4 th lvl buff

so we have

4 9th lvl spells
2-3 8th lvl spells
1-2 7th lvl spells

now I've house rulled all my games (even back to when the reflex save was a save vs spell) that when someone is grappling (remember those absurd grappling rules in the 2nd edition? :P ) he does not get a reflex save unless he breaks the grapple.
So it usually goes like this:

Evards tentackles grapple stuff with an absurd +28, a fair good number to graplle any non fighter.

then everyone gets 30d6 (cone of cold x2) sonic plus 30d6 (empowered DBF)
for a tottal of 60d6 points of damage. (210 average)

Survivors have o deal with a fully buffed wizard.


Enemies are not stupid: While the random encounter is fun, some encounters should be built to challenge and yes, target the PCs. I assume that during their adventures they must have made at least one enemy. Some BBEG are quest or plot oriented, but what about that one whose sole purpose in life is to destroy the PCs in the most horrible and suffering way?

I know, that there are ways to defeat him,

BUT, he is both a smart and dedicated player and has spent much of his time to hide his abilities from his plot oriented enemies. It feels like cheating to pop an NPC just for him.
Of course after 12 years of gameplay the Big Bad could have spent a few assets to create someone tailored to fight anyone in the party.

The main problem is, that most of my players, all seasoned Role Players, will jump on a "how did he knew that" and all (except one) never accept the "you do not know" answer without a grudge.

As you said, you can always bring balance to your game, but I am searching for a plot - trap, that can destroy this things without making them feel bad.

A plot I was thinking consists that the big bad (A primordial evil entity bent on the annihilation of everything) makes a deal with a sort of time lord that automatically dispels any sort of spell that affects time and speed.
But it will not come to that if you help me find an easier solution.

Thanks again,

Nick

[tyckspoon]

To provide an answer to some of the actual mechanics you were asking about:
No, Quickened spells are not immune to being counterspelled, and you do not need an absolutely identical version of the spell to do so. All normal counterspelling mechanics apply to Swift spells the same as any other casting time spells. The main problem with trying to use it to deal with what your Wizard player is doing is that Counterspelling is quite action-inefficient unless you put together a counterspell specialist; for most casters, Counterspelling his Celerity means they don't have a way of stopping him from just casting Time Stop when his turn rolls around normally (or, conversely, countering Time Stop means they don't have a way to stop him from stealing the active turn with Celerity and casting Time Stop anyway.)

Edit: Also, w/regards to your Wizard's usual spell-loadout.. I would note that Energy Resistance, Protection From Energy, and Energy Immunity are all fairly low-level spells relative to the levels you're playing at and have good durations. It would not be a huge investment to have any of your minions that you really don't want to be disintegrated to be walking around with at least one if not several of those, and your BBEG/his lieutenants themselves could have all 3 of them against all 5 basic energy types. And all they need to know to be prepped in this way is 'they have a Wizard and he likes blasting stuff'.. heck, not even necessarily in preparation just against the party's Wizard, maybe they just have to deal with a lot of dragons and elementals.

[vrigar]

I must be missing something.
20th level and he's attacking with fireballs and cone of cold?
High enough spell resistance makes this combo worthless.
Heck, something as common as evasion and a decent reflex save make him waste his top game for absolutely 0 effect.
And 20th level worthy opponent should be able to crush a fully buffed wizard in a multitude of ways (I guess grappling him in an anti magic shell and giving him noogies would be my favorite but simply leap attacking him out of existence could also work).

[Douglas]

Counterspelling makes no distinction about casting time. You must ready an action to counterspell, but once that is done you can use that readied action no matter what spell it's up against.

As for countering this specific build without getting into "how was he tailored for me" issues, there are a number of general anti-wizard tactics that could work. There are several ways to remove the readied action requirement of counterspelling. At least one of them is as simple and low cost as pre-casting a buff. It is well within reason for anyone who expects to be facing a spellcaster - any spellcaster - to use this.

If the BBEG is epic and a caster himself (one of the few things that should legitimately threaten this character), I would recommend Spell Stowaway (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#spellStowaway) with Time Stop as the chosen spell. Yes, this is somewhat targeted at him, but Time Stop is a spell that many powerful wizards are likely to use, so this feat as a counter to "generic powerful wizard" is reasonable. Plus, having his combo turn into a 1 on 1 duel with the BBEG (with a 1 round advantage to BBEG thanks to Celerity's daze) seems a much more interesting way to handle it than simply stopping the combo before it starts.

[OrlockDelesian]

I must be missing something.
20th level and he's attacking with fireballs and cone of cold?

You are not missing something. Spell resistance when your CL check is +24 is not difficult to beat.
And the black tentacles make the evasion ability useless if you are grappled (since like I said, grappled creatures do not receive a ref save)
As far as the Fireballs and cones of cold go, time stop only allows you to deal damage with delayed spells. So as far as he is concerned, spending 8th and 9th lvl spells to deal damage is ok.
And the fact of buffed opponents, works only if they had time to buff.



for most casters, Counterspelling his Celerity means they don't have a way of stopping him from just casting Time Stop when his turn rolls around normally (or, conversely, countering Time Stop means they don't have a way to stop him from stealing the active turn with Celerity and casting Time Stop anyway.

The main problem with celerity is that lets say an opponent targets him, and manages to reach him in order to grapple/chop his head of with a power attack/ throw a meteor swarm on him, he uses celerity and all is ok.


And 20th level worthy opponent should be able to crush a fully buffed wizard in a multitude of ways (I guess grappling him in an anti magic shell and giving him noogies would be my favorite but simply leap attacking him out of existence could also work

This I liked and I shall use :P
I will give the opponent The name Vrigar.
And he will shout it every round!


If the BBEG is epic and a caster himself (one of the few things that should legitimately threaten this character), I would recommend Spell Stowaway with Time Stop as the chosen spell. Yes, this is somewhat targeted at him, but Time Stop is a spell that many powerful wizards are likely to use, so this feat as a counter to "generic powerful wizard" is reasonable.

This is also a good Idea!
But I do not see how I can use your name as a tribute....

Thank you all guys!

[tyckspoon]

You are not missing something. Spell resistance when your CL check is +24 is not difficult to beat.
And the black tentacles make the evasion ability useless if you are grappled (since like I said, grappled creatures do not receive a ref save)
As far as the Fireballs and cones of cold go, time stop only allows you to deal damage with delayed spells. So as far as he is concerned, spending 8th and 9th lvl spells to deal damage is ok.
And the fact of buffed opponents, works only if they had time to buff.


Energy Resistance and Protection from Energy are 10 min/level. That's 3.33 hours at CL 20, more than 6 if Extended. If you cut it back to CL 12, since that's where Prot. Energy stops scaling, it's 2/4 hours.. and a level-20 quality BBEG should not have any problems getting his hands on a CL 12 casting of a level 3 spell for anybody he thinks is worth keeping alive. For his personal protection and that of really important minions, there's Energy Immunity, a Cleric & Druid 6/Sorc & Wiz 7 spell. Which does exactly what the name suggests for a good 24 hours. Standard energy types (and Sonic *is* one, it's just a bit more exotic than the elementals) are really easy to counter with higher-level spells.

[Zeb]

Some simple misdirection might also help you deal with this. Mooks disguised as the BBEG, illusions, projections, having one or two "scary" threats visible while the rest are hidden and moving into surrounding position and actual threats with contingent and readied actions can cause this wizard to "blow his load" sometimes even to the detriment of his friends.

a fun example would be contingent or readied Baleful Transposition (http://dndtools.eu/spells/miniatures-handbook--75/baleful-transposition--1948/) or the like; So you did how much damage to your ally?

The grapple difficulties at that level ought to be addressed by Freedom of Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm), a spell or the ring at that level it is a great investment.

I would also second having a dedicated counter speller or ring of spell battle if you want to shut down the combo and have everyone involved.

[Crinias]

Basically what Zeb said. Freedom of Movement at that level is pretty elementary. If a BBEG sends out scouts to analyze your party's strategy, they will probably realize the big black tentacles out of nowhere are a big strategy of your wizard, and perhaps the sonics as well.

Regarding enemies, I suggest considering a Quarut from the Fiend Folio: a high-CR Inevitable that is charged with protecting time and space. Frequent enough Time Stops might draw the attention of such beings.

In this particular case, it knows what the wizard is doing out of its own sense of temporal awareness - in effect, this being has been specifically created to deal with this sort of problem, which immediately explains the "How did he know?" question.

Dragon #341, Ecology of the Inevitable suggests that the Quarut would tackle the problem of such an archmage not by direct attack but via subterfuge, interrogating associates and seeking out weaknesses. Zeb suggested illusions, and I do as well. If your wizard is defeated (entirely possible), it would be up to you what the inevitable wants him to do to restore the change in time or whatever. Good luck.

[OrlockDelesian]

Just Checked the Quarut.

Extremly Usefull creature!

Thank you all for your answers up to now, they've been very helpfull!

[Kelb_Panthera]

On the "how did he know?" question, that's not that hard to answer. While the wizard is undoubtedly keeping himself low-key in public and putting up divination blocks on himself and his allies, I'm willing to bet that he doesn't do much in the way of clean-up after a battle. If he's not completely obliterating the corpses and restoring the terrain after his battles, he's leaving rather obvious traces of what he's doing. Even if he's smart enough to be wiping the corpses I'd bet he's not putting divination blocks on or destroying the souls of his enemies.

The mangled remains and blast-furrows he's leaving behind can tell the entire story of a battle to someone with sufficient heal, knowledge, and spellcraft modifiers, including the timestop since he's dropping so much damage and so many spells simultaneously.

If the BBEG is the head of any kind of organization and even suspects that there's a single entity (individual, group, or organization) that's been disrupting his plans, he's going to send minions to look into it. A smart BBEG has at least a couple minions that are good at finding out what the heck happened "at that one place."

If you want the specifics, the expansion for the heal skill in complete adventurer gives the DC's for determining what killed someone, spellcraft's description in the PHB gives a DC for identifying the results of a spell after the fact, and know (arcana) -should- be the skill for identifying the results of what type of energy was used to damage a particular area, though know (nature) might also apply. Speak with dead can get a story out of a corpse, even if there's very little of it left. Heck, legend lore or vision can bypass most divination blockers when used to learn about someone of higher than 11th level.

Completely covering your tracks, when you're active in the world, takes more paranoia than most people have in them. If you've had the same BBEG for more than an adventure or two, he most definitely -can- know what he's up against.

Edit: since originally posting this I remembered two more that make it all but impossible to completely conceal your actions; the psionic powers psychometry and sensitivity to psychic impressions. Both will let you see the past in an area with -no- regard to any effort at clean-up. Disintigrate the bodies, mend the terain and structures, consume the enemies' souls, it doesn't matter. Those powers will replay the events with perfect clarity if the seer manifests them in the area. It's just a matter of determining where to manifest them.