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jamieth
2013-08-05, 02:25 PM
Just a couple of nitpicks, Falcon: One, I believe the "official" group name for the Tome of Radiance classes is already Wielders of Light, and was since the beginning of the new thread at least, and, two, you're factually wrong on your third point, cause, like it or not, there does exist a boy who IS a Magical Girl... and a zombie, at the same time :-)

But, yeah, that's just me being silly :-)

Forrestfire
2013-08-05, 02:36 PM
One thing I'd like to mention is that from what I'm getting out of these classes, they're supposed to be balanced around the classes that aren't able to break the game in half.

So, comparing it to a sorcerer and wizard is a bit ridiculous, given that literally every class that isn't a full casting class is going to be weak compared to them. The tier system analysis of D&D 3.5 classes exists for a reason.

These classes seem to be on the power level of stuff like the ToB classes and stuff like Beguiler and Dread Necromancer. Solid tier 3, so around the power level that many people enjoy in a game, and many games end up as due to people not playing optimized full casters, and also the power level that Wizards seems to have designed the game to run at (assuming the standard blaster/healbot/meatshield/skillmonkey setup).

(If I'm misreading your post, ignore me)

NineThePuma
2013-08-05, 02:39 PM
As such, since the Craft Soulbond feat requires both characters to have levels in some lightwielder class, the fluff is either encouraging homosexual behavior or it allows for male lightwielders. Really? I hadn't noticed any such requirement myself. In fact, in one of the games I'm in my 12 year old Champion crafted a soulbond with a soulknife.

5. The Power of Friendship theme may SEEM more feminine, but the truth is that a guy is just as capable of affecting a person as a girl is. Boys and Men in general are less social, but we aren't all socially inept. Naruto Uzumaki is a prime example of someone who has The Power Of Friendship. Defeat Means Friendship is fairly common in a number of different mediums and there's a reason it's a trope. Just because it's common to some magical girl anime doesn't mean its out of place in other genres. I mean, Buffy the vampire slayer did it, IIRC.




Given the complex nature of making illuminations (the mechanics, not the visuals), I am not qualified to say how this class could compare to a pathfinder arcane or draconic sorcerer (for overall effectiveness and blasting power respectively). I don't think anyone would realistically approach the stargazer class and attempt to compare it to a wizard, but if the stargazer cannot at the very least give a pathfinder sorcerer a run for his money, then all you are gaining by taking this class is fluff. Now don't get me wrong, the role play potential here and the sheer emphasis on light is COMPLETELY up my alley, but personally if I'm going to play a "caster," I want to be able to fill that role at least moderately well. The stargazer seems like it might be able to do that, but I honestly can't tell. Is there anyone that could look at this guide for pathfinder sorcerer optimization (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o8s2?A-Quick-Guide-to-Pathfinder-Sorcerers) and compare it to the stargazer class to say whether or not a stargazer could realistically take the place of a sorcerer and still do well at the role? Emphasis mine. I'm not an optimizer, or particularly fond of spell casters, but you're comparing the class that is the "caster" of the trio to something that it is not. Where the Stargazer is a focused blaster, they're tier 3 and being compared to the likes of the Dragonfire Adept or the Warlock in terms of position filled. Not an optimized sorcerer who has literally 8 years of work having been done in order to expand their capabilities. More if you take into account Pathfinder.


There's one other thing about the stargazer that kind of rubs me wrong. It seems to me that the stargazer is the "caster" class of the group, and as such a stargazer would, more than the empath or the champion, be willing to give up continually spending motes on their equipment in favor of dishing out the strongest illuminations every single turn. The sheer variety of weapons available along with the decently strong armor a stargazer can don really is the only thing it has going for it to give it any kind of melee capability; it can still do it, and probably fairly well, but that's not the focus of the class. Given that you can only spend half of your replenishable motes on any combination of illuminations per turn, that means that you have half of your motes to give to your equipment per turn. You misread: they can only spend up to that value on one type: they can cast multiple types and spend the entire mote pool that way.


Oh, as an aside, it seems to me that the ToR desperately needs meta-illumination feats for blaster focus characters. It's been stated ad nauseum that regular blasting in D&D and Pathfinder sucks by comparison to the other magic available and that the only real way for blaster casters to compete is to use metamagic. The reason blasting "sucks" is because every other option is better. Color spray, glitter dust, grease, and to a lesser extent Sleep are considered stronger spells than, say, burning hands, because the former are multi target crowd control effects, while the latter is a point blank cone of fire that means you're close enough for the enemy to hurt you. By removing the enemy's ability to act, you have not only removed them, at least temporarily from the fight, you have enabled your party to focus on other options.


As far as the illumination crafting system itself: very nicely done! I like it a lot. There does seem to be a distinct lack of any kind of teleportation/long range movement bonuses without taking a prestige class, which seems like an oversight. Sure, there's the aerial mage and the firekeeper, but frankly I don't want to have to take a prestige class just so that I can get from one continent to another with ease. Perhaps this is just me, but yeah, seems to be a bit of a lack there. Long range teleportation is almost exclusively the province of Tier 2s and higher. As previously noted, Tome of Radiance is not aiming to compete with the Tier 2+ classes. They're being compared to the Tome of Battle classes or Incarnum. Maybe Magus or Paladin if you're looking at Pathfinder classes.

Forrestfire
2013-08-05, 02:41 PM
Long range teleportation is almost exclusively the province of Tier 2s and higher. As previously noted, Tome of Radiance is not aiming to compete with the Tier 2+ classes. They're being compared to the Tome of Battle classes or Incarnum. Maybe Magus or Paladin if you're looking at Pathfinder classes.

Specifically, the only way to get it (at least in 3.5) without running a tier 2 or 1 full casting class is the Knight of the Weave, and even then it's only for the Teleport spell. Greater Teleport and Plane Shift variants are the purview of the casters or magic items made by them.

Falcon777
2013-08-05, 04:52 PM
oh god social justice warriors have made it to GITP

The intent of my message was not that of "Waaaaaah, I wanna play a light wielder without having to be a girrrl," but rather one of: "Oh, hey, this guy might have a point about people not paying attention to this awesome series of classes. If he's right, what's the most likely reason? Hmmmmm...Oh, I know! Perhaps it's the extreme emphasis on the feminine pronoun! If I suggest they change it and they do, perhaps this really awesome set of classes will get more traffic and guys like me might have a better chance at actually playing one on these boards!"


The entire point of the class was to make a d&d class based on magical girls.
If anyone is pushed away from it because they're upset by an excess of female pronouns, frankly, if it were my class, I wouldn't want them using my material anyway.


See above portion.


As for stargazers, you misread the mote rules. You can't spend more than (evoker level) motes on illuminations of a specific type per round, eg blasts, or surges. You can spend your maximum by using one blast, one surge.

Thanks for pointing that out, I missed that. It still (Kind of) comes up with a similar problem, though. The point of the Luminous Reservoir ability is to give a stargazer character more mote points to spend on his illuminations. I'd have to use all three kinds of illuminations, or have points spent in my gear, before I would dip into my luminous reservoir. I suppose you could say it's there for the character to "go nova," but...well, still kind of seems like it's more there to let the character spend points on their gear instead of on their illuminations. Not that that is strictly bad...just seems kind of counterintuitive and "kind of" against the fluff of the ability.


One, I believe the "official" group name for the Tome of Radiance classes is already Wielders of Light, and was since the beginning of the new thread at least

Again, the intent wasn't to bash the feminine emphasis but rather attempt to find a way to increase traffic.


and, two, you're factually wrong on your third point, cause, like it or not, there does exist a boy who IS a Magical Girl... and a zombie, at the same time :-)


And I would disagree on the person being both a girl and a boy at the same time. But that's a discussion for another board that doesn't restrict conversations based on them being religious or political.


One thing I'd like to mention is that from what I'm getting out of these classes, they're supposed to be balanced around the classes that aren't able to break the game in half.

So, comparing it to a sorcerer and wizard is a bit ridiculous, given that literally every class that isn't a full casting class is going to be weak compared to them. The tier system analysis of D&D 3.5 classes exists for a reason.

Funny thing is that since D&D and Pathfinder belong to Wizards of the Coast and Paizo respectively, you'd think that if their game was broken (in such a way that it doesn't work) they'd fix it. Given that the game has been out for almost forty years now (forty come next year), I'd say that the developer's of the game that this thread is homebrewing for would say that their game works quite fine. However, that line of conversation is probably best suited to another, third party board.


These classes seem to be on the power level of stuff like the ToB classes and stuff like Beguiler and Dread Necromancer. Solid tier 3, so around the power level that many people enjoy in a game, and many games end up as due to people not playing optimized full casters, and also the power level that Wizards seems to have designed the game to run at (assuming the standard blaster/healbot/meatshield/skillmonkey setup).

However, considering the comparison, here's a hypothetical situation for you: I find a thread here that allows "some" homebrew according to the DM's discretion. I decide I want to play a stargazer character and go to a pretty good effort to make his background and personality fairly fleshed out.
The DM find's a cleric, a barbarian, and a bard that are also fleshed out and have their own quirks about them. However, he thinks that the game is going to be a long one and has the intention of going to multiple continents in the game, along with knowing that quite a few of the monsters he is going to throw at the players aren't going to be easy by half a measure. He's doing this because he's played with these guys before and they like a bit of a challenge. He then looks at my character and says "Nope, you're not going to be able to save your team when they need that quick extra oomph of magical power. I'll take the next guy even though he's a min-maxed wizard with little background and not much personality."

Would this situation happen all the time? Probably not, but I find it hard to believe it wouldn't happen frequently. It'd also be easy, if I actually got into the game, for the other players to mock the character for not being able to fill the "caster" role (not blaster as that is only one, very small portion of what a caster does). This problem only gets exacerbated if I start playing with an actual group in real life as they aren't so desperate to play the game they start doing so online.

Ultimately the class is going to get compared to other, more traditional magic based classes by just about anyone that seriously takes a look at it and considers whether or not they want to dm a game with a stargazer replacing their wizard/sorcerer/warlock. I'm not nearly as concerned about it as other people would be simply because I absolutely love the fluff of the whole tome, specifically how it emphasizes light as something to be grasped and used for good. But you take anyone else that prefers (if not demands) to min-max that (unlike me) doesn't have a rabid fascination with light and they likely are going to pass up the class, whether they are dming or playing.


Really? I hadn't noticed any such requirement myself. In fact, in one of the games I'm in my 12 year old Champion crafted a soulbond with a soulknife

As stated in the first post, there is no hard and fast requirement. Which is why I direct you to the statement that the intent of that portion of my original post was to find a way to increase the traffic of the thread, not to make gender equality in the thread. Also, a soulknife can have feats? :smallconfused: That's interesting. I never much paid attention to those kinds of classes, but hey, doesn't mean they don't have their place.


Emphasis mine. I'm not an optimizer, or particularly fond of spell casters, but you're comparing the class that is the "caster" of the trio to something that it is not. Where the Stargazer is a focused blaster, they're tier 3 and being compared to the likes of the Dragonfire Adept or the Warlock in terms of position filled. Not an optimized sorcerer who has literally 8 years of work having been done in order to expand their capabilities. More if you take into account Pathfinder.


See portion of argument above about comparisons. Also, blasting is only one third of what a stargazer can do with his illuminations. If a stargazer can't effectively stand on his own two feet by giving greater focus to his barriers and his surges, then those two portions MIGHT need to be reworked.


The reason blasting "sucks" is because every other option is better.

The statement that I posted in which you are replying to with previously quoted text is stating that if evokers are going to be effective, metamagic for them very well may be needed. Why pick up a lightwielder as a player in a game for their blasts if I can pick up a sorcerer or wizard instead and they can blast just as well while still pulling out things like polymorph and telekinesis? As a dm if I specifically want to limit the magical capabilities of my players, sure I might let one of my players make a stargazer, but from a players perspective if I can blast just as well as a more traditional magical class then the only reason I'd be making a stargazer is for fluff and not any of its mechanics at all. I, personally, would rather play a class because I like the fluff AND the mechanics as well. This is the reason why I specifically asked for someone who is more knowledgeable than me to make the comparison between the two classes. If I attempted to do so, I'm a lot more likely to make a mistake and miss something that one side or the other can do and come to the incorrect conclusion that the only reason I'd want to play a stargazer over a blast focused sorcerer is the fluff about light and friendship.



Long range teleportation is almost exclusively the province of Tier 2s and higher. As previously noted, Tome of Radiance is not aiming to compete with the Tier 2+ classes. They're being compared to the Tome of Battle classes or Incarnum. Maybe Magus or Paladin if you're looking at Pathfinder classes.


Specifically, the only way to get it (at least in 3.5) without running a tier 2 or 1 full casting class is the Knight of the Weave, and even then it's only for the Teleport spell. Greater Teleport and Plane Shift variants are the purview of the casters or magic items made by them.

So, despite the fact that a stargazer or an empath or a champion cannot really do necromancy, or abjuration, or healing, or summoning, or higher end illusions, or enchanting (unless your a child of the light), or almost everything in the transumatation school, you'd limit a lightwielder from having any kind of teleportation or mount effect just because that's the "purview" of a tier 2 or higher class? My assumption was that a tier three class can either do one thing fairly well, or do a lot of things poorly. Seems kind of...restrictive...to keep a stargazer from going from one end of the world to another quickly. Especially since it'd be pretty epic to see a small group of people all appear in a radiant flash of LIGHT! :smallbiggrin: But meh, it's not that big of a deal. Just a suggestion.

sreservoir
2013-08-05, 05:02 PM
@sresevoir: Oh, right. Both should be fixed now~

now it ... still doesn't make sense? (is it just me, does it make perfect sense to everyone else?) could you explain what in particular the feat is supposed to do?

with the spoilers, I was complaining more about the fact that there are spoilers inside spoilers inside spoilers than the fact that the toplevel was spoilered.


Also, does Starlight Apotheosis mean that a stargazer's illuminations cannot be dispelled/disjunctioned? If so that is quite strong and goes a long way towards making a capstoned stargazer being able to compete with more traditional mages.

(Su) effects can't be dispelled or disjunctioned to begin with. stargazer capstone affects amf and maybe some corner cases.


There's one other thing about the stargazer that kind of rubs me wrong. It seems to me that the stargazer is the "caster" class of the group, and as such a stargazer would, more than the empath or the champion, be willing to give up continually spending motes on their equipment in favor of dishing out the strongest illuminations every single turn. The sheer variety of weapons available along with the decently strong armor a stargazer can don really is the only thing it has going for it to give it any kind of melee capability; it can still do it, and probably fairly well, but that's not the focus of the class. Given that you can only spend half of your replenishable motes on any combination of illuminations per turn, that means that you have half of your motes to give to your equipment per turn.

Aaaaaaaaand then you have a bonus pool of motes (luminous reservoir) that can only be spent on illuminations...despite the fact that you cannot spend all of your regular motes each turn on illuminations anyways. :smallconfused: What this means is that you effectively are actually being given extra motes to spend on your equipment. This seems both counterintuitive and counterproductive to the purpose of the of luminous reservoir. Perhaps a stargazer could have an ability that would let them "overcharge" their illuminations using their luminous reservoir? Or perhaps if you were to implement "meta-illumination" feats, the extra cost could be supplied by the luminous reservoir for a sorcerer-like at need change? Just some ideas.

Oh, as an aside, it seems to me that the ToR desperately needs meta-illumination feats for blaster focus characters. It's been stated ad nauseum that regular blasting in D&D and Pathfinder sucks by comparison to the other magic available and that the only real way for blaster casters to compete is to use metamagic. Now, I don't honestly know how blast illuminations compare to something like chain lightning since there already seems to be (in a manner of speaking) built in options for "meta-magic" for illuminations. However, I do see that there aren't any comparable options to at least three very important metamagic feats to a blaster caster: empower, maximize, and quicken. If there were comparable feats for a lightwielder it would go a long way towards helping a blaster heavy lightwielder, regardless of whether your character is a stargazer, a champion, an empath, or some combination/prestige class.

well, there are two particular costume effects to note: the first is resplendent, which is self-explanatory; the other is primal.

consider: empower comes online at ~7th level or so if you're really trying, and, let's be liberal here, let's say you're using scorching ray so you have 2×1.5×4d6 ≈ 8d10 damage (d6×1.5 is ~d9.5 without rounding; empowered 4d6 has mean 20.75 rather than 21 due to rounding), so net mean damage is 41.5. this can be split between two targets, and is fire damage. the range is (25+7×5) = 60 ft.

so our evoker level is 7. we craft an illumination, power cascade 1 (0) sharpshooting (2) vile (5), let's say. this does 7d6 (average 24.5), which is non-impressive, but half that damage is vile, and we're not at the point yet where we hit on a 1 with half BAB yet, so that's worth something. the range is the same, and you hit one target.

let's improve that number. let's bump that up to power cascade 2 (3) sharpshooting (2) prism 1 (2) and use the primal costume effect -- let's invest 6m in it. now you can hit two targets -- the damage isn't split, mind -- with effective full BAB, and the damage is 7×(d6+2). the mean damage is 38.5, minimum 21 and maximum 56. it varies a bit less than scorching ray's 12 to 72, but the mean is only 3 less. but the BAB improvement tends to make up for that loss (if you go from "hit on a 2" to "hit on a 1", the 5.6% increase in damage makes it effectively more average damage than scorching ray). without a per-day limit, and the element can be changed with 5 min. notice. if you have multiple enemies, the illumination beats scorching ray nearly a full time over.

then note that if we want to be more efficient, we can use flare and have someone else hit it who was going to hit it anyway, and primal is +1/die/6 levels; at EL 18, our base die can be d8+3, or, if we're being really silly, being a stargazer maxxing out two primal costume elements (so all of the motes are coming out of luminous reservoir) using a +5 complex formula for a 23×(d8+6) damage promise (mean 241.5); to up to 7 targets; or, in a 100 ft. cone (which is excellent if you're good at analytic geometry), or in a 150 ft. line (uh I'm not sure why though when you could have a 100 ft. cone); or a 50 ft. radius.

at 20th level, a complex formula of 26m can hit a target on the moon and back again.

but that's just damage, though. damage isn't a caster's greatest tool.


The empath's multiple persona's strikes me as being a bit too close to schizophrenia to really grab my attention. Sorry. :smallfrown:

it's closer DID than schizophrenia, and somewhat far away.


As far as the illumination crafting system itself: very nicely done! I like it a lot. There does seem to be a distinct lack of any kind of teleportation/long range movement bonuses without taking a prestige class, which seems like an oversight. Sure, there's the aerial mage and the firekeeper, but frankly I don't want to have to take a prestige class just so that I can get from one continent to another with ease. Perhaps this is just me, but yeah, seems to be a bit of a lack there.

empath, lesser aspect, the chariot -- dim door by 5 (600 ft./min ≈ 60 ft./round is about normal double-move speed, and increases with level), which is quite early, though slow; teleport by 10 (which is about on time, and 1000 mi./10 min ≈ 500 ft./round and going up); greater by 15.

Falcon777
2013-08-05, 05:23 PM
now it ... still doesn't make sense? (is it just me, does it make perfect sense to everyone else?) could you explain what in particular the feat is supposed to do?

with the spoilers, I was complaining more about the fact that there are spoilers inside spoilers inside spoilers than the fact that the toplevel was spoilered.



(Su) effects can't be dispelled or disjunctioned to begin with. stargazer capstone affects amf and maybe some corner cases.



well, there are two particular costume effects to note: the first is resplendent, which is self-explanatory; the other is primal.

consider: empower comes online at ~7th level or so if you're really trying, and, let's be liberal here, let's say you're using scorching ray so you have 2×1.5×4d6 ≈ 8d10 damage (d6×1.5 is ~d9.5 without rounding; empowered 4d6 has mean 20.75 rather than 21 due to rounding), so net mean damage is 41.5. this can be split between two targets, and is fire damage. the range is (25+7×5) = 60 ft.

so our evoker level is 7. we craft an illumination, power cascade 1 (0) sharpshooting (2) vile (5), let's say. this does 7d6 (average 24.5), which is non-impressive, but half that damage is vile, and we're not at the point yet where we hit on a 1 with half BAB yet, so that's worth something. the range is the same, and you hit one target.

let's improve that number. let's bump that up to power cascade 2 (3) sharpshooting (2) prism 1 (2) and use the primal costume effect -- let's invest 6m in it. now you can hit two targets -- the damage isn't split, mind -- with effective full BAB, and the damage is 7×(d6+2). the mean damage is 38.5, minimum 21 and maximum 56. it varies a bit less than scorching ray's 12 to 72, but the mean is only 3 less. but the BAB improvement tends to make up for that loss (if you go from "hit on a 2" to "hit on a 1", the 5.6% increase in damage makes it effectively more average damage than scorching ray). without a per-day limit, and the element can be changed with 5 min. notice. if you have multiple enemies, the illumination beats scorching ray nearly a full time over.

then note that if we want to be more efficient, we can use flare and have someone else hit it who was going to hit it anyway, and primal is +1/die/6 levels; at EL 18, our base die can be d8+3, or, if we're being really silly, being a stargazer maxxing out two primal costume elements (so all of the motes are coming out of luminous reservoir) using a +5 complex formula for a 23×(d8+6) damage promise (mean 241.5); to up to 7 targets; or, in a 100 ft. cone (which is excellent if you're good at analytic geometry), or in a 150 ft. line (uh I'm not sure why though when you could have a 100 ft. cone); or a 50 ft. radius.

at 20th level, a complex formula of 26m can hit a target on the moon and back again.

but that's just damage, though. damage isn't a caster's greatest tool.



it's closer DID than schizophrenia, and somewhat far away.



empath, lesser aspect, the chariot -- dim door by 5 (600 ft./min ≈ 60 ft./round is about normal double-move speed, and increases with level), which is quite early, though slow; teleport by 10 (which is about on time, and 1000 mi./10 min ≈ 500 ft./round and going up); greater by 15.

Ah, the lightwielder's effects not being dispellable is very SHINY! I like that!

Concerning the blasts...hmmm. So, basically a lightwielder is very much a STRONG contender for blasting well. See, that's a good thing. Not having other kinds of magic available and still doing poorly with blasts was basically my concern with the limits of the class's ability to cast.


It's closer did than? I think I know what you are trying to say, but it's just ever so slightly confusing.

And yeah, the whole appearing like schizophrenia caused me not to see the chariot persona thingiemabob. Seems slightly out of place considering a stargazer is observing things that are very, very far away, but hey, if Selinia wants to restrict teleportation to empaths, that's up to her.

caledscratcher
2013-08-05, 05:31 PM
Okay, I don't have much of anything to say on this conversation and instead focus on res's comment on Form Pearl. It's basically Scribe Scroll mixed with Craft Wand, but for Wielders of Light. In essence you store a single illumination in a pearl, which can be used with Spellcraft to evoke such an illumination, much like a Wand, but with a lower maximum number of charges due to the motes you need to put forth. You also remove a certain number of motes from your pool for each day you work on it. Is that an alright clarification? I'd be happy to clarify more!

Oh, and with regard to the spoilers thing, I actually did remove the spoilers from the components list, in addition to the top spoiler. uvu

sreservoir
2013-08-05, 06:26 PM
Thanks for pointing that out, I missed that. It still (Kind of) comes up with a similar problem, though. The point of the Luminous Reservoir ability is to give a stargazer character more mote points to spend on his illuminations. I'd have to use all three kinds of illuminations, or have points spent in my gear, before I would dip into my luminous reservoir. I suppose you could say it's there for the character to "go nova," but...well, still kind of seems like it's more there to let the character spend points on their gear instead of on their illuminations. Not that that is strictly bad...just seems kind of counterintuitive and "kind of" against the fluff of the ability.



Again, the intent wasn't to bash the feminine emphasis but rather attempt to find a way to increase traffic.



[quote]And I would disagree on the person being both a girl and a boy at the same time. But that's a discussion for another board that doesn't restrict conversations based on them being religious or political.

that's a reference, you see.


Funny thing is that since D&D and Pathfinder belong to Wizards of the Coast and Paizo respectively, you'd think that if their game was broken (in such a way that it doesn't work) they'd fix it. Given that the game has been out for almost forty years now (forty come next year), I'd say that the developer's of the game that this thread is homebrewing for would say that their game works quite fine. However, that line of conversation is probably best suited to another, third party board.

you'd be sadly mistaken, too, for reasons of backward compatibility, and refusal to accept they own failures, more or less respectively; we have the historical evidence to back that up. but yes, that's fairly irrelevant.


However, considering the comparison, here's a hypothetical situation for you: I find a thread here that allows "some" homebrew according to the DM's discretion. I decide I want to play a stargazer character and go to a pretty good effort to make his background and personality fairly fleshed out.
The DM find's a cleric, a barbarian, and a bard that are also fleshed out and have their own quirks about them. However, he thinks that the game is going to be a long one and has the intention of going to multiple continents in the game, along with knowing that quite a few of the monsters he is going to throw at the players aren't going to be easy by half a measure. He's doing this because he's played with these guys before and they like a bit of a challenge. He then looks at my character and says "Nope, you're not going to be able to save your team when they need that quick extra oomph of magical power. I'll take the next guy even though he's a min-maxed wizard with little background and not much personality."

well, there's a cleric already, what's it doing?


Would this situation happen all the time? Probably not, but I find it hard to believe it wouldn't happen frequently. It'd also be easy, if I actually got into the game, for the other players to mock the character for not being able to fill the "caster" role (not blaster as that is only one, very small portion of what a caster does). This problem only gets exacerbated if I start playing with an actual group in real life as they aren't so desperate to play the game they start doing so online.

Ultimately the class is going to get compared to other, more traditional magic based classes by just about anyone that seriously takes a look at it and considers whether or not they want to dm a game with a stargazer replacing their wizard/sorcerer/warlock. I'm not nearly as concerned about it as other people would be simply because I absolutely love the fluff of the whole tome, specifically how it emphasizes light as something to be grasped and used for good. But you take anyone else that prefers (if not demands) to min-max that (unlike me) doesn't have a rabid fascination with light and they likely are going to pass up the class, whether they are dming or playing.

they all compare quite favourably to the warlock, because they're playing the same game at it and they're somewhat different but mostly better.

the wizard and sorcerer, in contrast, are playing rather different game.


See portion of argument above about comparisons. Also, blasting is only one third of what a stargazer can do with his illuminations. If a stargazer can't effectively stand on his own two feet by giving greater focus to his barriers and his surges, then those two portions MIGHT need to be reworked.

blasts are a point of comparison because they're quantitative and easy to compare.

barriers do things like bfc, and also illusions and short-ranged teleports, and better AMF than AMF. consider: a barricades strongholds pilgramage 1 silence barrier, placed on the same square as an enemy up to 40 ft. away, leaves an enemy without magic items, exit with either full-round action (which, trades a standard and a move for the evoker's move action) or a strength check (against DC 24+Ability, where ability bonus at this level is probably at least at least +5, so unless you have 28 str before magic items, happening ), 12 motes, attainable by stargazer 9 and widely available by 12; even the 11-mote version, for an enemy no more than 20 ft. away, is generally better than amf (it's on a move action, so it doesn't interfere with, say, a blast, and you're not making yourself useless, and it's still more effort to exit even if you can just eat the 25 ft. penalty.)

meanwhile surges do things like almost-haste (battles), spell resistance higher than the spell which is also a debuff and a temporary dispel (isolation), ability bonus which scales ridiculously fast (might), passable burst healing (resolve); with add-on mirror image (which scale slower than actual mirror image, of course, but still), to multiple allies or enemies or both (isolation bolts and isolation pulses seem like excellent ideas). also quite the host of debuffs.

evokers can do a lot of this stuff; they're limited by a) how many one can do, by illuminations know, b) how many they can do at a time, my motes and action economy. and, of course, they're plenty of stuff they can't do. most of it is probably intentionally excluded.


The statement that I posted in which you are replying to with previously quoted text is stating that if evokers are going to be effective, metamagic for them very well may be needed. Why pick up a lightwielder as a player in a game for their blasts if I can pick up a sorcerer or wizard instead and they can blast just as well while still pulling out things like polymorph and telekinesis? As a dm if I specifically want to limit the magical capabilities of my players, sure I might let one of my players make a stargazer, but from a players perspective if I can blast just as well as a more traditional magical class then the only reason I'd be making a stargazer is for fluff and not any of its mechanics at all. I, personally, would rather play a class because I like the fluff AND the mechanics as well. This is the reason why I specifically asked for someone who is more knowledgeable than me to make the comparison between the two classes. If I attempted to do so, I'm a lot more likely to make a mistake and miss something that one side or the other can do and come to the incorrect conclusion that the only reason I'd want to play a stargazer over a blast focused sorcerer is the fluff about light and friendship.

before action economy shenanigans (which evokers aren't especially good at, actually, but anyone can pull a WRT per encounter), an evoker can throw out ~2×EL×(d8+EL/6) damage per enemy for up to ≥~EL/3 enemies between resplendent and primal and flare prism blasts, potentially trading off number of enemies to hit for AOE or arbitrary range or ... uh, better to-hit or AC penalty, I guess (okay those effect are terrible), on round 1. and then still have the action left to put up a barrier or suppress EL/3 magical effects and prevent maybe 3/4 of new ones for up to EL/3 rounds trading off with ~EL/4 targets.

of course it doesn't match up to mailmanesque builds or whatever, and maxipower d6 is +5 levels for <7.75/die mean as a standard action (and okay, quicken empower for mean <5.25, which comes out to <13/CL in a round), and a primal+prism flare blast is only mean <8.5/die, but the latter doesn't stop scaling, and you're getting off two of them on round 1, and the latter is probably hitting more targets, and the latter has a better to-hit (if it matters -- it's not likely to, though), and evokers have things to do with their move and swift (very useful things to do with the move and swift actions, even).

also, no per-day limit.

they have ... duration issues, though. and can't really go splatbook diving.


So, despite the fact that a stargazer or an empath or a champion cannot really do necromancy, or abjuration, or healing, or summoning, or higher end illusions, or enchanting (unless your a child of the light), or almost everything in the transumatation school, you'd limit a lightwielder from having any kind of teleportation or mount effect just because that's the "purview" of a tier 2 or higher class? My assumption was that a tier three class can either do one thing fairly well, or do a lot of things poorly. Seems kind of...restrictive...to keep a stargazer from going from one end of the world to another quickly. Especially since it'd be pretty epic to see a small group of people all appear in a radiant flash of LIGHT! :smallbiggrin: But meh, it's not that big of a deal. Just a suggestion.

no necromancy, no, no summoning nor "higher end illusions" (well, major image is basically the pinnacle to figments, so I presume you mean illusion that have ... explicit effects), and evoker's dispel is stick an AMF on it or suppress it until the duration expires, and healing is limited to hit points.

but if you really want to, stargazer can make scrolls for whatever starting at 6, and empath does, in fact, have teleportation, and they all have short-range teleports.

Falcon777
2013-08-05, 06:30 PM
So I said I was going to look over the prestige classes, and then got "sidetracked" by errands that needed to be run and by the replies made to my first post subsequent to my errand run.

So, here we go:

Fashionista: hmmm, who does this remind me of...OH! I KNOW! Hello there, Erza Scarlet! :smallamused: Lol.

Firekeeper: Definitely seems like a throwback to the idea of the stone age, but the class definitely could be fun to play. It also kind of reminds me of a druid in a way, so that's cool.

Reedeemer of Nine: Frankly, I'm confused with this class. Is the character evil because she's doing evil things despite the fact that she thinks she's doing good things? Also seems like excellent material for a prerequisite to the night devil.

Valkarie: Amazon's HO! Not really, but that's the mental image I get when I think of this class and it's name. However, when I look at the meat of the class it makes me think of a redmage, which is cool.

Arial mage: actually, going a mile in a round, while fast, is below mach 1, assuming the temperature isn't negative 137 degrees Fahrenheit. A round is six seconds, which means that you would be traveling at 600 miles per hour. If you assume a reasonable temperature of 65 degrees, you would still need 165 miles an hour more just to reach mach 1. Of course once you've spent 12 motes on the weightless ability, then you ARE going supersonic up until the temperature reaches a little over 800 degrees Fahrenheit (which of course is ridiculous). I thought I'd point that out to you in case you'd want to increase the speed so that you are always going supersonic after your five round acceleration. (P.S. Your calculations might have been off if you had based the distance of a mile on it being 6000 feet when it is actually 5280).

Apart from that, fairly interesting class. "Say yes to flying!" :smallbiggrin:

Bombardment mage: ah, here's the blaster king prestige class. If you want to blast and do it well all the time (well, as best as is possible), this class is totally for you.

Ferzien slave: an interesting class that...has some odd fluff about it, but is probably the closest you can get to a sweet awesome battle butler that does more than Alfred.

Heartwielder: "Hello, kingdom hearts, can I borrow your keyblades for a quick game? Yes? WOO HOO!" lol :smalltongue: That being said, if you DO want to pretend you're playing kingdom hearts, this is definitely the class you want to play. Of course a truly creative player will go beyond that, but yeah, 'nuff said.

Immortal: Very nice. I like the theme of this class, though I could easily see such a character getting into an argument with a ferzien slave, especially if the latter character was serving someone who's motives were dubious. The class seems balanced, and if epic levels came into play I could see the class getting some kind of apotheosis for immortality against aging. Otherwise you've got yourself a solid defender class for the life of the character (most games don't see the death of a character by aging, so I presume the lack of agelessness isn't really a big deal).

Listener to Light: A diviner class centered around light and truth? That's something I could get behind. If I had the time to play more games, I'd probably play this one right after I got done with a game as a stargazer, which basically means that I like it more than all the other prestige classes.

Night Devil: Evil themed? Yeah, it is, and as such I'd have to say no thank you. Interesting though that the class get's bonuses against being turned back towards the light. Seems pretty fitting.

Radiant Amourer: "Hello, yes, I'm your quartermaster. I'm also a great warrior." Fairly interesting class. Basically keep yourself and your friends in good equipment, though I'm still kind of wondering how the radiant armaments compare to enchanted items. If they're weaker, this class could find itself being eclipsed by npcs with magic shops if the dm isn't careful.


All in all, this is very interesting. Is there a reason why the Child of Light prestige class isn't on the first page?

Merellis
2013-08-05, 06:48 PM
I don't mind the female pronouns, mostly because you see a bunch of them in the PHB itself for classes and in some feats. It's mostly a flavor thing, and with Magical Girls being a part of Anime that is mostly female I wasn't surprised or turned off at all by it.

Any guy who is turned off the Tome of Radiance just because of female pronouns really need to just let that stuff go. :smallannoyed:

As for the classes, looking into DMing a game with pretty much just them. I'll tell you how it goes. :smallsmile:

sreservoir
2013-08-05, 06:56 PM
Okay, I don't have much of anything to say on this conversation and instead focus on res's comment on Form Pearl. It's basically Scribe Scroll mixed with Craft Wand, but for Wielders of Light. In essence you store a single illumination in a pearl, which can be used with Spellcraft to evoke such an illumination, much like a Wand, but with a lower maximum number of charges due to the motes you need to put forth. You also remove a certain number of motes from your pool for each day you work on it. Is that an alright clarification? I'd be happy to clarify more!

Oh, and with regard to the spoilers thing, I actually did remove the spoilers from the components list, in addition to the top spoiler. uvu

I was thinking more along the lines of


Interceptor Components Available:

Blast Components:

Foundation: Clinging, Power, Flare
Shape: Chains, Explosion, Beam, Imbue
Secondary:Horizon, Prism, Sharpshooting, Vile

Barrier Components:

Foundation: Carnage, Shadows, Shelter, Zone
Shape: Dominions, Borders, Strongholds
Secondary: Pilgrimage, Returning, Ancients, Anchors

Surge Components:

Foundation: Battles, Denunciations, Isolation, Might
Shape: Awakening, Bolts, Pulses
Secondary: Amplitude, Awe, Echoes, Promises


Form Pearl
Prerequisites: evoker level 3rd
Benefit: You gain the ability to form radiant pearls. This process is much the same to scribing a scroll, and it takes the same amount of time. However, rather than storing a single spell, a pearl stores uses of a single illumination. As part of crafting a pearl, you select one illumination you know to store in it, and lose a number of motes until your next extended rest equal to the illumination's cost multiplied by the number of uses of that illumination that you put into the pearl. The maximum number of uses of an illumination that can be put in a pearl is equal to 1/4 of the mote cost multiplied by her evoker level, rounded up. Any character can make a Spellcraft check (DC 10 + stored illumination's mote cost) to evoke an illumination from a pearl, but evokers get a +2 radiant bonus on this check. Once all uses of a pearl's illumination have been used, it dissipates into luminant energy. The total cost of forming a pearl is equivalent to the half of the amount of motes expended each day * 200 gp.


Form Pearl [Item Creation]

Prerequisite: Evoker level 3rd.

Benefit: You can form radiant pearls of illuminations you know. A radiant pearl is a equivalent to a spell completion item with caster level equal to its evoker level, and spell level equal to half its evoker level, and emulates an illumination's effect when used. Any character may make use of a radiant pearl with a Use Magic Device check (DC 20 + evoker level); an evoker gets a +2 radiant bonus on this check.

Forming a radiant pearl takes one day for each 1000 gp in its base price. The base price of a radiant pearl is 12.5 gp × its caster level2. To form a radiant pearl, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price.

A radiant pearl stores uses of a single illumination. While forming a radiant pearl, you must invest motes equal to the illumination's mote cost; these motes are returned when you next prepare illuminations.

something to this effect?

... not sure I approve.

Falcon777
2013-08-05, 06:58 PM
I don't mind the female pronouns, mostly because you see a bunch of them in the PHB itself for classes and in some feats. It's mostly a flavor thing, and with Magical Girls being a part of Anime that is mostly female I wasn't surprised or turned off at all by it.

Any guy who is turned off the Tome of Radiance just because of female pronouns really need to just let that stuff go. :smallannoyed:

As for the classes, looking into DMing a game with pretty much just them. I'll tell you how it goes. :smallsmile:

Is the game going to be here? If so, I'm totally going to apply, assuming it's still open to applications.

Snowfire
2013-08-05, 07:00 PM
All in all, this is very interesting. Is there a reason why the Child of Light prestige class isn't on the first page?

Primarily disagreements about the apparently draconian alignment restrictions and it being overpowered for giving a LA 2 template + a few other things in ten levels.

Or Selinia just forgot. Either is possible. Although considering that Light's Artist didn't make it onto there either, it's probably the latter. I would appreciate your thoughts on both if you wouldn't mind though :smallsmile:

Oh, and thank you very much for you kind words in regards to what I've designed (amusingly, I hadn't even considered the relation to Kingdom Hearts in regards to the Heartwielder - go figure). Due to my class making skills working off inspiration fueled at least in part by critique, I may actually get around to tossing up the Gray Guard PrC I've had floating around for a while.

Might even put up Bringer of Twilight too, although it's verging heavily into morally questionable territory with what it gives the user.

Regardless, thanks.

And if I might make a few points from my own experience of both DMing and playing with these classes (not the PrCs though, they hadn't been written yet), these classes are strong. Are they tier 1 material? No, not really. Tier 2? That...honestly depends on if you know what you're doing, although even what I've learnt to do with these classes is probably only high tier 3.

For example, I have a level 4 Champion in a game. She has a Marksman Device with the Twinned Device feat. Note, this character is still using the old Enhanced Armaments as that class feature has yet to be fully updated. When I full attack, she does 2d6+3 to two targets if she hits. Her AB is +6 and in full combat I am routinely roll against touch AC instead of standard via the use of the Weightless cartridge boost effect.

And then Twinned Device kicks in. Which does another 4d6+6 to all foes within 10' of the foe I hit. Reflex for half against that AoE effect mind, but still.

So at level 4 I'm doing - assuming I hit with full BAB vs Touch AC - 8d6+12 damage to my opponent. If I layer in an assault blast, it jumps to 10d6+12.

Now, of course, 4d6+6 of that can be halved if my foes pass their reflex save. Or obviated entire if they have evasion and succeed. But the point still stands. This is something that my character can do pretty much for an entire fight - most combats at that level don't last much longer that 4 rounds - and I defy you to find me anything that isn't truly splaterific that can do the same.

6d6+6 at absolute minimum, and as I'm targeting touch AC, I generally need nothing more than a 5 to hit. And that's not even counting that the ranged version of Twinned is an area of effect damage effect.

Lix Lorn
2013-08-05, 07:06 PM
Primarily disagreements about the apparently draconian alignment restrictions
Insanely draconian. :smalltongue:

Snowfire
2013-08-05, 07:12 PM
Insanely draconian. :smalltongue:

Having that discussion at the next meetup. Leave it alone :smallwink::smalltongue:

vasharanpaladin
2013-08-05, 07:21 PM
Night Devil: Evil themed? Yeah, it is, and as such I'd have to say no thank you. Interesting though that the class get's bonuses against being turned back towards the light. Seems pretty fitting.

Dark magical girls (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkMagicalGirl) are not necessarily evil. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkIsNotEvil)

Snowfire
2013-08-05, 07:25 PM
Dark magical girls (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkMagicalGirl) are not necessarily evil. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkIsNotEvil)

Most of the time however, they are.

Draken
2013-08-05, 07:44 PM
Night Devil doesn't demand you to be evil, however. It is about dark powers born of dark events and the people who use them. For good or ill.

A Night Devil is supposed to be jaded and possibly introverted, caustic or abrasive, but none of these things require that the person be actively malicious, just antisocial.

NineThePuma
2013-08-05, 08:03 PM
The intent of my message was not that of "Waaaaaah, I wanna play a light wielder without having to be a girrrl," but rather one of: "Oh, hey, this guy might have a point about people not paying attention to this awesome series of classes. If he's right, what's the most likely reason? Hmmmmm...Oh, I know! Perhaps it's the extreme emphasis on the feminine pronoun! If I suggest they change it and they do, perhaps this really awesome set of classes will get more traffic and guys like me might have a better chance at actually playing one on these boards!"

I'm going to ignore everything else and focus on this, because this is objectively at odds with 3.5's writing in general.

3.5 consistently uses the female pronouns to refer to the player throughout Core. It is frequently used to refer to characters. It was a conscious decision by the designers to do so. Nit picking this single point as something "wrong" with the class is showing an ignorance of one of the main philosophies of 3.5: they tried top open up the market to female gamers a bit more by using female pronouns pretty much exclusively. I recall there being a sidebar in one of the core books explaining it too.

Draken
2013-08-05, 08:12 PM
I'm going to ignore everything else and focus on this, because this is objectively at odds with 3.5's writing in general.

3.5 consistently uses the female pronouns to refer to the player throughout Core. It is frequently used to refer to characters. It was a conscious decision by the designers to do so. Nit picking this single point as something "wrong" with the class is showing an ignorance of one of the main philosophies of 3.5: they tried top open up the market to female gamers a bit more by using female pronouns pretty much exclusively. I recall there being a sidebar in one of the core books explaining it too.

I was pious of that, but went to check and the male pronoun is used quite often as well.

My guess is that the pronoun is used more in regards to the term "class" (which is a feminine noun, I believe?) than anything else.

Authors vary on that however. When I write homebrew, for instance, I stick exclusively to masculine pronouns (homebrewing for this one is an exception I kind of have to battle through habit with, because I am a stickler for form, and the form here is feminine pronouns).

Falcon777
2013-08-05, 08:13 PM
Oh, I'm only beginning on the making you look bad :smalltongue:

Got two more PrCs for you, and...something else. Oh, and another PrC about half way done. I don't think I have ideas for any more after this, but we'll see. This one was a lot of fun, it being in effect, the real old school magical girl.


Child of Light

"Key of the Light
With powers burning bright
Reveal the staff
And shine your light!
Release!"
- Ancestor Sakura, one of the great Heroes of Light, upon releasing her seal.

Eons ago, in a distant past that had yet to see the birth of many of our stars, the first generation of children gifted with the Light was born. Before the time of the Evokers came, with their refined understanding of the Light, in the dawn where primal life basked in the gentle glow of young stars rose to emulate this radiance. These progenitors would come to be known as the Heroes of Light. Each of them tall as a titan and creating a legacy that outlasted even the memory of their names and identities.

They spread the Light wherever they went, and in their wake new souls were gifted with Light. These were the seeds from whence Evokers would later bloom. In time, even these living legends perished to the trials of their brave existences and the ravages of time. The world can be unkind to such pure souls.

But even in death, the spark which these chosen children carried does not die. It endures, precious and eternal, and with every cycle of the wheel they return. Their memories may not follow with them, but their wisdom, kindness and the strange nature of their souls which first made this miracle possible very much does.

They are the Children of Light. Bearer of an ancient legacy and inheritors of a legend that transcends space and time. They are the primordial bearers of the Light. And though they cannot hope to fully emulate the power they once used at the origin of time, they grasp the Light in ways which others can barely comprehend and never emulate.

More so than any others, the Light was the fate of these pure and holy souls.

The darkness very much fears them.

Requirements
To become Child of Light, you must fulfill the following criteria:
Alignment: Any Good
Feat: Ancestral Radiant (detailed below)
Special: Evoker Level 6, Power of Friendship.

Level seven entry requiring feat, alignment and full Evoker class up to that point (or truly excessive feat use)

Class Skill List: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge [History] (Int), Knowledge [Local] (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha)

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Children aren't going to use skills that often more likely than not. But giving them the list shown seemed to fit best with their nature.



Level 1 only feat. It's had some work done on it from the base, but I think this is pretty solid.

Child of Light
Hit Dice: d8

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Illuminations

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|Enhanced Weaving, Heritage Bound, Incorruptible, Primordial Light, Ancestral Seal (Staff)|

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3||
+1 level of existing class

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|Eternal Grace|

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|Ancestral Seal (Body)|
+1 level of existing class|

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+4|Hope Never Dies|

6th|
+6|
+5|
+5|
+5|An End to Darkness|
+1 level of existing class

7th|
+7|
+5|
+5|
+5|Ancestral Seal (Mind)|

8th|
+8|
+6|
+6|
+6|Hope Lives On|
+1 level of existing class

9th|
+9|
+6|
+6|
+6|Light Springs Eternal|

10th|
+10|
+7|
+7|
+7|Ancestral Seal (Spirit)|
+1 level of existing class[/table]

Pretty good chassis. Full BAB, all good saves, but only d8 hd and extremely limited evoker progression. Don't worry there though, it's nowhere near as bad as it looks.

Illuminations: A Child of Light loses little of her power as an evoker, by the primordial power of her ancestor makes it slightly harder for her to craft Illuminations as her sisters do. A Child of Light continues to progress access to Illuminations from her Evoking Class, as well as her Evoker Level, as shown. If she has more than one Evoking Class, then she must choose one of them when she takes her first level in Child of Light. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.

Actually true due to one of their first class features. See below.

Enhanced Weaving (Ex): A Child of Light remains fully capable of weaving her Light into protective shells as she could before awakening her heritage. And the primordial, impossible strength that flows from that heritage grants her great power.

A Child of Light gains additional costume elements as if her levels in Child were levels in her previous evoking class or Empath, whichever is more advantageous.

Magical girls of this era were all about costume to a degree far more than many of the later ones. So this fits.

Heritage Bound (Ex): Once awakened, the heritage of a Child can never be sealed again. It can only be completed. Once a character takes her first level in Child, she may not exit for the full ten levels until her heritage is fully awakened.

Stolen shamelessly from Sublime Chord in terms of basic wording, this is a very good showing for the fact that, once you start down this path, you can't stop. It's just as much a sacrifice of yourself as it is anything else.

Incorruptible (Ex): Children of Light are stalwart in their convictions and pure in their intentions as no others can be. No force may alter their Alignment less than their own freely chosen actions. Any action they may take that may alter their Alignment is fully disclosed to the player by the DM. This comes as a flash of insight to the Child. Whenever any force conspires to make the Child act outside the bounds of her Alignment, she not only disregards the influence but may roll a second saving throw to break out of it. If no saving throw was allowed, then one is allowed at a standard DC.

A Child who ceases to be good or who willfully commits an evil act loses all Child of Light abilities. She may not progress any farther in levels as a Child of Light.

This one got lost in the building of the class - my fault for composite building over several days via Skype, but answers the question of going evil and suchlike quite easily.

You. Don't.

Primordial Light (Su): The Children of Light’s power is that of another age, ancient and unbound unlike that of any other Evoker. Her garb is that of the Light’s own, and it cannot be content with the falsehood of a physical form. It burns with the Light of an ancient beacon, and grants her safety against those that would try to harm her.

At 1st level, a Child of Light gains a special costume effect that is always active and gained in addition to all others. Furthermore, she automatically has (class level) motes invested into it, without lowering her mote pool and bypassing normal investment limits.

Effect: The Child gains 20% concealment. This special concealment grants no other benefits of concealment, such as interfering with line of sight or protecting against precision damage.

Essence Boost: For every 3m invested in this effect, increase the Child of Light’s concealment by 5%, to a maximum of 50%. If at least 12m are invested, the Child gains Regeneration/Evil equal to one third of the motes invested. If 20m or more are invested, all lethal damage dealt to the Child is converted to nonlethal. If the Child is in any way immune to non-lethal damage, the damage counts as lethal for bypassing the immunity.

No Cartridge Boost here. That's extremely deliberate, mainly as Cartridges are definitely a far more modern magical girl thing. And really, this doesn't need a Cartridge Boost effect. It's good enough on its own.

Ancestral Seal (Su): At first level, the radiant heritage of the Child’s past blooms into life, reaching out from beyond the veil of death and finding purchase in the very core of the roaring fire that burns at her heart. This heritage brings many gifts, but it also sets the Child apart as the bearer of an ancient and eternal legacy that will, in time, change her utterly.

At level one, the Child of Light’s device is fundamentally altered, becoming more a trinket than any real weapon. It becomes a potent focus for her Illuminations, allowing her to treat her Child of Light Evoker Level as full progression for all purposes. In addition, she becomes literally incapable of dealing any form of lethal damage. She always deals nonlethal damage, even to creatures immune to it. For the purposes of regeneration or fast healing, it counts as lethal damage.

The Child of Light crafts her Illuminations as if she was holding her Device whilst doing so, hence at full evoker level.

At level four, the Child’s connection to her ancestral Hero of Light expands further, wrapping her body in protective Light that secures her from many dangers. She gains a permanent effect as Lesser Globe of Invulnerability while wearing her costume, and may add her Evoker Stat Modifier as an Insight bonus to AC.

At level seven, the blazing radiance of the Child’s primordial power twines into being around her mind, securing her thoughts from the influence of those who might try to twist her to their will. She gains a permanent effect as a double strength Magic Circle against Evil.

And as she attains her tenth level, the ancient fire of the Hero she is becoming erupts across her very being, changing her irrevocably into something far more than mortal. She will still age, and wither and die. But for her time amongst the living, she is forever set apart as one of the great forces of mortal Light of her generation.

The Child of Light becomes an Outsider with the Native and Good subtypes. She gains immunity to acid, cold, electricity and petrification as well as Fire Resistance 10 and a +4 racial bonus against poison. In addition, her Magic Circle against Evil effect improves for her alone, granting her the effects of a permanent effect as Holy Aura.

Any creature looking upon the reborn Hero of Light immediately intuits her as a creature of overwhelming and radiant purity. Unless the Child of Light takes explicit measure to conceal her alignment, it is as plain to sight as the glow of dawn over the horizon.

So...yeah. You're EL counts as full so long as you've got your trinket in hand, which is something so absolutely fitting it almost hurts. The rest of this is basically the Saint Template sans stat bonuses and a few other things. Well, and with the addition of permanent Holy Aura.

Eternal Grace (Su): Children of Light are a breed set apart, moving with a grace that speaks of more age then there is in the life of the universe. That grace, enhanced by the Light that courses through them, grants them protection against much that would harm them.

A Child of Light gains a bonus to all saving throws equal to her (Evoker Stat Modifier). This does not stack with Divine Grace.

Divine Grace for Evokers. This is one of the main reasons that this class is rather restrictive on entrance and cannot be dipped.

Hope Never Dies (Su): It was hope that was the cornerstone of much of the power that the Heroes of Light came to wield. The belief that, regardless of what they faced, if they faced it with utter determination and refusal to quit, they could never lose. And this bullheaded stubbornness and belief in something better than the world they walked is the seed from which many of their greatest miracles sprouted and flourished.

At level five, the Child of Light is immune to all fear effects, be they magical or otherwise. Furthermore, all allies within 30 feet receive a +4 moral bonus to all saving throws against fear. She and all allies within her 30 feet radius mien may also completely ignore all morale or profane penalties. This defense does not endure if her allies leave this radius but re-establishes itself as soon as they return.

So you're going to try and scare the magical girl and her allies away. Pffffft! Riiiiight. Sure you are.

An End to Darkness (Su): Magical girls can always find the best in those around them, even the darkest of devils and demons. To their sight, even in those monsters of darkness and blood there is the faint spark of Light. Hidden and caged maybe, but there. And whilst most find this spark so very hard to unearth, the reincarnations of Heroes can go one better. A Child does not simply change the alignment of an outsider. Her radiant power is capable of utterly changing them, rewriting their essence into a form fitting for their new view of life and their reality and freeing them from the shackles of their old life.

At level six, the Child of Light ignores any penalties to using Power of Friendship that may stem from their target being an Outsider (or similarly alien creature). Furthermore, should they succeed in bringing their new friend to the side of Good, they immediately go through a miraculous metamorphosis. Encased in a shell of light, they emerge from it as a butterfly, their entire being purified of their former sins and essence as an unique Outsider of the appropriate subtypes. Their appearance changes to suit the aesthetic of their new alignment but they are otherwise unique creatures. The DM should adapt the newly purified Outsider as best suits his campaign and the spirit of this ability.

Furthermore, the purification process is extremely liberating and experiencing this bliss disposes the Outsider rather well toward her new friend. The Outsider is inclined to be helpful and friendly with the Child of Light unless given pressing reason not to be. If the Child of Light has access to cohorts, the Outsider may be chosen as one of their cohorts if they have no more than (HD-2) hit dice.

This ability is primarily fluff, but was a great deal of fun to put together. Nothing really screams this class harder than the ability to go "Yep. that devil? They're now an angel. What'cha gonna do?"

Hope Lives On (Sp): Those who share the heart of a Child of Light may vanish in time, but not before their time has come. Her pure love for them rejects even the cold certainty of death.

Once per day, the Child of Light may use Raise Dead as a spell-like ability with a Caster Level equal to her Evoker Level upon someone with whom she has a previously established positive relationship. This is a full-round action.

Crying upon the corpse of your friend to return them to life (or similar). Stock Magical Girl.

Light Springs Eternal (Su): There was a time once, long ago, when the raw emotion of those gifted with the power of Light could snuff out stars and topple gods from their pedestals on high. And whilst that time may be long past, a shadow of that power remains in the spiritual descendants of those original Heroes.

At level nine, the Child may, once per day, drain their entire mote pool to cast Miracle with a Caster Level of their Evoker Level. Their mote pool remains empty after the use of this ability for one minute. The Child must still provide any material, focus, of the Miracle, and the Miracle cannot be a very powerful request.

In addition, by voluntarily gaining four negative levels, the Child may request a more powerful miracle. In such a case, the Miracle does not cost the usual additional 5000 xp. These negative levels cannot be cured by any means and take effect regardless of any immunity to them. Only one of these negative levels is removed every 24 hours, but they never cause permanent level loss. If a Child of Light still has negative levels remaining from a use of this ability, she may only use this feature for the comparatively weaker miracles until she has regained her full level.

These Miracles are requested from the Light, and are approved only if the Miracle would be for the good of all, not just that of the Child alone. Selfish Miracles are always refused.

This one took quite a bit of wording, but I think worked out ok in the end. In the spirit of the fact that Miracle type effects were basically how massive threats in Sailor Moon and other such old shows were resolved, a Child of Light gets the ability to do that. Not without cost maybe, but they can do it.

The fluff of the class seems spot on.

The skills aqcuired and requirements to get in are good.

And then we get to the "chassis." For a class like this, something seems a bit...off about getting full Bab, though that is only true if that Bab applies to all attacks one can do in a full round action. If it only applies to the first attack, I'd say meh. The saving throws, though, is probably overpowered when you take eternal grace into consideration. By the time you finish with this class, you'll be level sixteen and can afford a lot of magical items that can boost your ability points and saving throws by a very large margin. What this means is that the class has very likely has the best saving throws in the entire game, especially once you take into consideration the might surge. This could very well make it difficult for a dm to challenge your character in a battle without outright killing your friends. A truly creative dm can get around this, but still, that's a lot to put onto his plate. I'd suggest toning fortitude down a bit, but that's up to you.

The way this class does illuminations is slightly confusing, but this is the way I read it: as long as the character has their device when they craft their illuminations (aka, at every level up), they can make their illuminations that they do know as strong as whatever they would have had in their previous class. However, their illuminations known and readied are going to be reduced by five levels after finishing with this class.
If that is what it means...eh, it's probably not too bad in my opinion. Even the stargazer has nothing by comparison to a sorcerer when it comes to "spells known," so a class that is even more restricted in the different number of things it can do in battle seems like a decent restriction. However, I am by no means an expert when it comes to optimization, so I'd take what I say with a grain of salt.

Personally, I really like the heritage bound feat. I am not a fan of doing a lot of multi-classing, and that requirement hardly seems draconian to me. In fact, I almost wonder why most prestige classes aren't this way.

Incorrutible honestly seems like something that should be inherent to the entire game, at least as far as knowing whether or not doing something would change one's alignment. The extra saving throw seems standard fare as well.

I am not one that can tell you whether or not Primordial light is overpowered or not, though I have read all the posts on this thread, so I know that some people think so. The only thing I'd say about it is if someone else says it's overpowered, I would at least take it into consideration. Generally whether or not something is overpowered depends upon the creativity of a dm and the make up of the rest of the party.

The defences gained through this class are very strong, perhaps none stronger than Ancestral seal. Overall not too op, though, as the class doesn't really have much in the way of defined offence (besides the character's illuminations).

Yeah, eternal grace and the natural saving throw bonuses combined is probably op. You could probably even lessen all of them to +4 (in the chassis) and the class would still be strong in saving throws.

Hope never dies: standard fare here.

And end to darkness: I like this. The ability to turn demons and devils into angels is pretty darn cool. Any opness that might come from this ought to be handled by dm fiat, though. As stated before I'm probably not the best person to say whether or not something is op (unless it's a simply pattern like saving throws, :smalltongue:)

Hope lives on: the fact that it requires the character to have a previously established positive relationship is an out for dms to kill off npcs. However, the once per day thing could make killing off pcs kind of hard without using some kind of magic that prevents it. I'm a little iffy on the relative ease with which it can be done, but other than that it totally fits with the class.

And then there's Light Springs Eternal. If I were a pathfinder sorcerer, I could only cast wish (possibly the most powerful spell in the game) if I had TWENTY FIVE GRAND to spend, regardless of what I'm doing with it. It's an incredibly high cost, and completely perfect for the spell. Then you have miracle, which can duplicate most of the effects of wish without said cost, unless you want the incredibly powerful stuff. The effects of miracle and wish are so strong that really, you don't want to be casting this every month, let alone every five days. Unlike a cleric, a Child of Light doesn't have a deity, which in my opinion is supposed to be the way the dm can say no to the spell (wish has the 25 grand cost to help inhibit it). While this ability doesn't let you do the big stuff but more than once every five days, that still seems a bit too often, especially since miracle is kind of cheaty in comparison to wish (and I feel this way despite the fact that the miracle is supposed to be unselfish in nature). Basically I think it needs something to tone it down...

if you want the class to stay a tier 3 :smalltongue:. If not, meh, by the time you're level 16 you're incredibly powerful anyways, and I've read more than one thread where people state that they don't ever want to play in the high levels, let alone in epic, because of the shenanigans people can do in a lot of classes.

And yeah, there it is.

Lix Lorn
2013-08-05, 08:24 PM
Having that discussion at the next meetup. Leave it alone :smallwink::smalltongue:
But it's so much more FUN now! xD

Snowfire
2013-08-06, 06:13 AM
But it's so much more FUN now! xD

Shut up and read another prestige class :smalltongue:

No, seriously.


Bringer of Twilight

We are the whispers of Light that haunt every villain even in the heart of his own darkness. We are the blades, forged of Light's wonder, that never speak and are never seen. We do what must be done to save the Light, never known and never acknowledged. And I am sorry, but this too must be done. May the Light welcome you. - Bringer of Twilight

There are many colours to Light. But just as much there are many shades. Not all have the luxury of being able to take the path of purity and cut-and-dried morality. Sometimes all the available choices are bad, sometimes not even the powers of Light and friendship can solve a solution without loss. It is well known to all Evokers that, no matter how hard they might try, there will always – somewhen – come a time when their abilities just aren't enough. And from this realisation, in time, grew the order that refers to themselves as the Bringers of Twilight.

This organisation – and it is nothing less – formed out of those Champion, Empaths and Stargazers that found that simply blasting their opponents into submission sometimes wasn't enough. Sometimes, no matter how much they might have hated it, they had to kill. Destroy a life to save millions. Many of their sisters reject this idea as cynical or lost, but the Bringers of Twilight know better. They have been there at those precipices, where they had the ability to save worlds by killing one man or woman or to let it all come crashing down if they spared their foe. And whatever their 'more enlightened' kin might say, they know they made the right choice. Nothing else could be done.

Requirements
To become a Bringer of Twilight, you must fulfill the following criteria:
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Special: Evoker Level 5, must have slain an opponent in cold blood to save others from their perceived 'evil'.

Level six entry, but you're going to have to RP a bit to get into this class.

Class Skill List: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge [Local] (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magical Device (Cha)

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Yes, that's a lot of skills. However, considering the sort of class this is, they're going to need a lot of them.

Bringer of Twilight
Hit Dice: d8


LevelBase Attack BonusFort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSpecialIlluminations
1st
+1
+0
+2
+2Bringer of Twilight (Night), Duskblades
2nd
+2
+0
+3
+3
+1 level of existing class
3rd
+3
+1
+3
+3Lurker in the Light
+1 level of existing class
4th
+4
+1
+4
+4Bringer of Twilight (Dawn)
+1 level of existing class
5th
+5
+1
+4
+4
6th
+6
+2
+5
+5
+1 level of existing class
7th
+7
+2
+5
+5Bringer of Twilight (Noon)
+1 level of existing class
8th
+8
+2
+6
+6Nightfall
+1 level of existing class
9th
+9
+3
+6
+6
10th
+10
+3
+7
+7Bringer of Twilight (Dusk)
+1 level of existing class


Pretty good chassis. Full BAB, two good saves and reasonable EL progression too. Only d8 HD, sure, but you're not meant to be a frontliner.

Proficiencies: A Bringer of Twilight gains no armour or weapon proficiencies.

Illuminations: A Bringer of Twilight loses little of her power as an evoker, but she does lose some, pouring that power into the ability to strike with a lethal efficiency that is almost frightening. A Bringer of Twilight continues to progress access to Illuminations from her Evoking Class, as well as her Evoker Level, as shown. If she has more than one Evoking Class, then she must choose one of them when she takes her first level in Bringer of Twilight. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.

Enhanced Weaving: A Bringer of Twilight remembers fully the power and majesty of their costume elements, and lose none of their access to it as they progress in level. Their levels in Bringer of Twilight either stack with their levels in previous Evoking classes, or count as levels in Empath for the purposes of Costume Progression (whichever is more advantageous).

Bringer of Twilight: Bringers of Twilight are gifted with great power from their resolve, but they lose much of their innocence to that lethal conviction. In the end, stripping away the Light around them, they are the Light’s assassins. And whilst they might not take pleasure in that duty, they are unswerving in carrying it out.

At first level, a Bringer of Twilight forever loses their Merciful class feature. Night falls for them in that moment, stripping away one of the few things that make Evokers truly special, and replacing it with an utter determination to do what is right. No matter the cost.

The Bringer of Twilight gains the Death Attack ability of the Assassin with the following modifications. The Bringer of Twilight may make a Death Attack as a single attack standard action, and may do so from a range of up to 30’ if using their Device or a ranged Blast. It still requires the observation time as normal. The DC for the save this attack prompts is (10 + Evoker Level + Evoking Stat Modifier). This counts as a Death effect when used to strike to kill. At level seven, it is not protected against by Death Ward, and the paralysis effect bypasses the effects of Freedom of Movement.

At level four, the first glimmers of Light return to the Bringer of Twilight’s world. But this light is harder and far less kind, the Light of the dawn that rises above a killing field. The Bringer of Twilight becomes one with this harsh and pale light, and in doing so becomes capable of striking in ways all but invisible to the naked eye except for their effect. As a swift action, the Bringer of Twilight may make any enemy within 30’ become flat-footed against her for the next round if they fail a DC (10 + Evoker Level + Evoking Stat Modifier) Will save.

If she hits her target with a Death Attack, even if they succeed on their save, observers must make a spot check against the same DC to realise that the attack was the Bringer of Twilight’s doing. Of course, if her target is not dead or paralyzed, this becomes somewhat of a moot point.

Level seven brings another light into the Bringer of Twilight’s world, this time the blazing fury of the noonday sun in full summer, striking down those who dare oppose them with lethal swiftness. She reduces the number of rounds required to examine her target before she can make a death attack by a fifth of her class level, to a minimum of 1 round. In addition she reduces any penalties to Hide, Move Silently, Disguise, Bluff and Escape Artist DCs by her Class Level.

And at level ten, the Bringer of Twilight’s power has come full circle, back to the settling dusk that spawned her realisation. She has found her balance, and now strikes down all those who would seek to destroy it. She may make a Death or Sneak Attack from any range that she is capable of striking from with Device or Blasts. She adds half her class level to the DCs of her Class Abilities. She also ignores the -20 penalty to Hide when sniping and may snipe with the same restrictions as Death/Sneak Attack.

So yes, this is basically the Assassin, but worth taking. More powerful Death Attack (eventually), with the ability to make it a lot faster as they gain in levels. Penalty negation over bonuses - as for most of these skills, that's probably more helpful. Oh, and the ability to bring someone down without anyone even knowing you did it. Gotta love that.

Duskblades: Bringer’s of Twilight are the blades that the Light wished it never had to have, the knives in the darkness that glimmer but faintly before they spill the blood of their foes. And in that faint glimmer is housed a determination that is made terrifying by the willingness of its wielder to do anything to hold back the night.

At 1st level, a Bringer of Twilight gains a special device effect that is always active and gained in addition to all others. Furthermore, she automatically has (class level) motes invested into it, without lowering her mote pool and bypassing normal investment limits.

Effect: The Bringer of Twilight gains the Sneak Attack ability of a Rogue of her Class Level when attacking a flat-footed target with her Device. If a Bringer of Twilight gets a sneak attack bonus from another source, the bonuses on damage stack. Duskblade damage does full damage against creatures that would be immune to sneak attack, like constructs and undead.

Essence Boost: For every 1m invested in this ability, the Bringer of Twilight may ignore 1 point of DR. If 10 or more motes are invested, any creature dealt damage by her Sneak Attack loses any fast healing or regeneration it may possess for one round.

Cartridge Boost: When a cartridge is expended to fuel this effect, the Bringer of Twilight’s weapons are imbued with a deadly sheath of faint light that allows them to strike their opponents weak spots again and again. Any opponent that she struck the round before with her Sneak Attack automatically counts as flat-footed against her attacks. This effect lasts a number of rounds equal to her Evoker Stat Modifer. If she successfully strikes a target with Sneak Attack whilst under this effect, she may immediately end the effect to have the attack count as a Death Attack.

Stronger Sneak Attack as a base, with enhancements akin to Resolved in the Essence Boost and then a rather interesting synergy as a Cartridge Boost.

Lurker in the Light: Bringer’s of Twilight are as at home hiding in the day as they are at night – in fact, they have to be. Their power allows them to slip away from sight in shadow or light. It matters little. At level three, a Bringer of Twilight may attempt a hide check even whilst observed.

Hide in Plain Sight. 'Nuff said.

Nightfall: The Bringer’s of Twilight prefer to bring death swiftly rather than slowly, but the magical protections that their targets often cloak themselves in would make that far, far harder if not for this ability. Known as the Nightfall, it allows Bringer’s of Twilight to reduce the defences of their target to that of an unenhanced mortal in the moment of their strike.

Once per day at level eight, a Bringer of Twilight may expend ten motes to enhance an attack with an anti-magic effect similar in nature to a weaponised version of the Warded costume effect. Before the attack roll is made, the Bringer of Twilight rolls an Evoker Level check against any magical and psionic effects affecting her target as Greater Dispel Magic/Psionics.

Ah, and this one. The almighty boot the head for all those who rely on supernatural protections. It might not bring down everything defending a foe, and it's only 1/day (as you'd expect for an assassin type), but it's also extremely unpleasant to get caught in.

How many times do you think that you've missed attacks because of an item of x granting +z as y to AC? Well, now you don't have to. Not for those really important shots.

Snowfire
2013-08-06, 06:21 AM
Awesome critique is awesome

Many thanks. Your points are well made and - at least in regards to saving throws - very well make me modify things a bit for Child. The Miracle bit...I've grappled with that since I posted the class. It's something that desperately, desperately wants to be there, but as you said balancing it is hard.

I'm thinking about maybe increasing the time factor required between castings - once a week/month is currently fighting a war in my head. We'll see what comes of it.

And thanks again. Critique always does good things for me - regardless of its tenor.

Falcon777
2013-08-06, 11:23 AM
Light’s Artist

"You don't have to do this. Come, let me show you. You don't have to be afraid anymore."
-Unknown Light’s Artist, opening her Embrace

Many are those drawn to the Light from its power. More are drawn by the hope it embodies, the strength that endures almost any challenge and emerges whole. But it is a precious few who are drawn to the Light for one of its simplest and yet most complex treasures. Its sheer, utterly heart-stopping, beauty. The Light is the embodiment of every wondrous childhood memory, every magnificent moment where love is shared and given forever. It is the feel of that first kiss, the bone deep protective love for one’s child and the endless wellspring from which those feelings perpetually flow.

Light’s Artist’s tap into that love-borne beauty, that particular facet of the Light, and make it what they are. Wherever an Artist walks, that beauty follows. Wherever she works her power, it remains for all time. And when she is forced into conflict, it surrounds her in a weave of protective Light that reaches out to her opponent with an offer of utter safety. She will walk through the fire, the storms, and everything else that might be levelled against her. She will never strike back, only acting to defend herself and her comrades. And, when she is close enough, she will reach out to her foe, and wrap them in the comforting arms of Light’s true embrace.

Requirements
To become a Light’s Artist, you must fulfil the following criteria:
Special: Power of Friendship, Evoker Level 6

Another level seven entry class here, but it really fits to a lot of these.

Class Skill List: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge [History] (Int), Knowledge [Local] (Int), Knowledge [Nobility and Royalty] (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha) Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha)

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier.

The skill list for Child actually came from Artist, but Artist has a few more Knowledge Skills to suit their wider base of understanding.

Light's Artist
Hit Dice: d10
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Illuminations

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|Remembered Weaving, Unbreakable, Light’s Embrace (You Can Be More)|

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3||
+1 level of existing class

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|Radiant Wonder|
+1 level of existing class

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|Light’s Embrace (Love Redeems)|
+1 level of existing class|

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+4|Shining Path|
+1 level of existing class

6th|
+6|
+5|
+5|
+5||
+1 level of existing class

7th|
+7|
+5|
+5|
+5|Light’s Embrace (Never Too Late)|
+1 level of existing class

8th|
+8|
+6|
+6|
+6|Triumph of Light|
+1 level of existing class

9th|
+9|
+6|
+6|
+6||
+1 level of existing class

10th|
+10|
+7|
+7|
+7|Light’s Embrace (One Last Chance)|
+1 level of existing class[/table]

Good EL progression, good saves, full BAB, d10 HD. This a strong chassis, but it's like that for a very good reason.

Illuminations: An Artist loses only a little of her power as an evoker, but she does lose some. A Light’s Artist continues to progress access to Illuminations from her Evoking Class, as well as her Evoker Level, as shown. If she has more than one Evoking Class, then she must choose one of them when she takes her first level in Light’s Artist. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.

As per normal. Look at table, work out EL.

Remembered Weaving (Ex): An Artist can still weave bits and pieces of the protective Light her old vocation gave her, and remains fully capable of tapping into their strength. But as with anything, her focus on something beyond the physicality of the universe weakens her.

A Light’s Artist gains additional costume elements as her Evoker Level and Illuminations progress.

Not much really to be said here.

Unbreakable (Su): An Artist is a strange one, but utterly unassailable in their strength of will where it comes to reaching out to those in pain – even those facing her in combat. Weapons blunt themselves on her, bursting into nothing but Light itself in the face of the glory of her Embrace.

At 1st level, an Artist gains a special costume effect that is always active and gained in addition to all others. Furthermore, she automatically has (class level) motes invested into it, without lowering her mote pool and bypassing normal investment limits.

Effect: The Artist gains DR 1/-, as well as 25% fortification, giving her a chance to negate any sneak attack or critical hit and force damage to be rolled normally.

Essence Boost: For every 2m invested into this effect, increase the granted DR by 1. If the evoker has 8 motes or more invested into this effect, she gains Evasion. If another class would grant her evasion, this effect improves to Improved Evasion. If 16 motes or more are invested, she gains Mettle.

Cartridge Boost: When a Cartridge is expended to fuel this effect, the Artist is wreathed in a great mantle of furious light that shields her from harm. She gains the effect of the Starmantle spell (BoED), for rounds equal to her (Evoker Stat Modifier).

I have to admit, I loved writing this one. Starmantle is such an awesomely fluffy and fitting spell for this type of PrC, and the basic effects on their own aren't too good to make it Champion only.

Light’s Embrace (Su): A Light’s Artist is a part of the Light in a way that none of her fellows can ever imagine. She becomes a living conduit of the infinite love and endless forgiveness that is her particular facet of Light. And when faced by foes on all sides, she does not fight them as her sisters would. Instead she reaches within and Embraces those who have lost their way in her loving Light, opening their eyes to themselves and offering them another way out of the hell that has become their life.

At level one, an Artist may make a touch attack against an enemy. If she hits, a ribbon of her Light flares out from her soul, wrapping them in a gentle embrace. Her target must make a will save vs a DC of (10 + ½ HD + Evoker Stat Modifier) or be affected as Calm Emotions, as the memories of her past – and the possibilities of her future – overwhelm her. The Caster Level for the Calm Emotions effect is equal to twice (class level), and it requires concentration as normal. When this effect ends, the Artist may make an immediate Power of Friendship roll, with a +1 bonus for each round that she held her target within her Embrace to a maximum bonus of (class level). She may only Embrace one target at a time and must remain within 5’ of her to hold the Embrace.

Once a target has freed herself from the Artist's Embrace, she is immune to its effects for 24 hours.

At level four, the Light’s Artist’s inner radiance reaches forth to those around her with a graceful ease that would be terrifying if it was not so…right. She can reach out across a battlefield, twining multiple ribbons around those near her, and bringing them peace. The Artist may sustain a number of Embraces equal to half of her class level. Her Calm Emotions effect bypasses immunity to Mind Affecting or Compulsion effects except that granted by mindlessness – although it grants a +4 bonus on their will save to any with such immunity – and gains a range of 5’/every two class levels. She may also make Embraces as iterative attacks in a full attack. Finally, she may sustain her Embraces so long as those targeted by them remain within her range.

On reaching level seven, an Artist has learned to tap deeply enough into the love-channel of Light that those within her Embrace realise that they never truly wish to run. Those Embraced by an Artist must now make two saves against the standard DC. One against the Calm Emotions effect, and one against a Slow effect with a CL equal to twice (class level).
And at level ten, a Light’s Artist attains such a mastery of herself as a conduit of the Love of Light, that her power transcends the limitations of her mortal shell. She reaches beyond the Embrace, to something more, granting even the most desperate and lost soul another chance.

At 10th level, the Artist adds a third effect to her Embrace that is saved against in addition to Slow and Calm Emotions. If her target fails their save, they are rendered dazed by the torrent of memory and possible futures that they can still grasp that floods their mind. In addition, the Artist gains the ability to, when pushed far enough, utterly stop combat with the gravest of sanctions. Once per encounter, she may produce an effect similar to End to Strife (BoED) as a supernatural ability, with a DC as the other effects of Light’s Embrace.

There's some rather nice things in this PrC, but it's also situational enough that it's part of why the Artist's basic chassis is so strong.

Radiant Wonder (Ex): Light’s Artists exude a strange, yet utterly powerful, aura of safety and love that enfolds all around them. Usually invisible in its effect, an Artist can focus this aura if she so wishes to sway the opinions of those around her to aid them in seeing the Light.

The Artist gains a bonus equal to her class level on Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate and Sense Motive. In addition, she gains an at will extraordinary Charm Person effect with a DC of (10 + ½ HD + Evoker Stat Modifier) that she may use as a standard action.

At level seven this effect improves to Charm Monster. At tenth level, any racial immunity which may protect from these effects is negated. Such monsters instead receive a +4 bonus to their saving throw to resist this ability.

At will Charm effects with a bonus to social skills. Makes sense.

Shining Path (Su): The path to those in need of love is sometimes a very hard one. Those who believe themselves unworthy will lock themselves away. Those who are afraid will levy dreadful blood penalties against those who try to give it. But an Artist cares little for such things. The path from her to the one who needs her help will always be clear to her, and nothing can bar it from her.

At level five, once per encounter, an Artist may designate a single opponent as a standard action. When moving towards him, she cannot be held by any means, passes freely through obstructions to her path and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Not even impenetrable obstacles, such as a wall of force or forcecage, may hinder her path. Once per round, whilst moving towards her target, she may ignore the effects of any effect dealing harm other than hit point damage that would affect her. If her target moves away, she automatically moves the same distance towards him – gaining necessary burrow, swim or fly speeds as necessary for the action. An artist must move a minimum of half her speed towards her designated opponent each round until she is close enough to use her Embrace on the opponent at which point the effect ends and she is required to use her Light’s Embrace on the designated target as her next action. The Path grants her a speed of her base land speed for all types of movement (flight, swim, burrow, etc.) whenever it is necessary.

Almost purely fluff here, the mechanics of this are really quite simple and not particularly powerful. Walking through a Wall of Force and suchlike is nice, but you also have to follow your foe. And that can end...badly.

Triumph of Light (Ex): The other side of the Shining Path, the Triumph of Light is perhaps the most feared of all an Artist’s abilities. Many know the limits of the Shining Path, that it forces an Artist to pursue her target regardless of where they might go and what may be waiting. The Artist’s answer to this weakness is this.

Once per encounter as an immediate action, an Artist may surround herself in an unbreakable shell of radiant power that shields her from anything that attempts to harm her. For a single round, she reflects all attacks and effects that target her directly straight back at their sources. Harmful spells or other effects that would include her in their area of effect exclude her space from their affected area. In addition, any harmful conditions she is currently affected by are suppressed for the round.

And to counteract that massive weakness to ambushes, we have this. I'll admit, this one is powerful, but as it's only 1/encounter and will only keep you safe, I wouldn't place on the game breaking end of that scale.



Ok, now for the Light's Arteest, lol. :smalltongue:

The fluff in interesting. It's almost stating that true art is in redemption, which frankly is pretty cool if you ask me.

The requirements to get in are pretty standard it seems, though to be honest I can't think of a situation where someone could be an evoker but NOT have the Power of Friendship ability. Perhaps if the character had already taken a level in Night Devil or Bringer of Twilight, but any sensible Gm is going to say "Nuh uh! The fluff of the classes are completely opposite. No way!"

Skills seem standard.

And then there's the chassis. Ehhhhhh, I'd say it's a bit too strong in a manner of speaking. It doesn't necessarily make the class op, in my opinion, but it DEFINITELY doesn't fit the theme or fluff of the class. I'm specifically referring to the saves and Bab. Unlike Child of Light, whether or not Bab from this prestige class affects all attacks is a LOT more important than the saves, though that portion is iffy too. An artist is not a warrior, plain and simple. Could they come from a background of being a champion? Yes, but their focus has shifted as is clear with the abilities of this class. As such, IF the Bab from a prestige class affects all attacks, I'd say you'd need to reduce it to no more than +5. If it doesn't, then it's fine how it is.

As to saves and hp, yeah that's a no no. An artist, with the exception of a martial artist, is more frail than your normal combatant. And the martial aspects of the Light's Artist are naturally missing since that's not the kind of art this class focuses on. And when you consider the fluff even more broadly, you have to remember that this entire tome is about traditional themes and black and white morality. It's very much non-traditional for an artist to be physically strong (aka, can take a hit). I'd say reduce it to d8 for hp and reduce the fortitude saves to +3 or +4 and you'd be ok. In fact, if you were to reduce the fortitude saves to +3 you could probably even get away with a stronger will save than what you have. Am I saying this because the class is op in that manner? Nope. In fact I don't think it strictly WOULD make the class overpowered, but that kind of chassis just goes against the grain of the fluff of the class and that of the tome at large.

Near full Illuminations and full weaving seems standard fare.

Unbreakable seems ok. Personally I think something of more utility or offensive in nature would be more beneficial to the class, but meh, that's up to you.

And of course Light's Embrace is the meat of the class. The fluff and mechanics of it are great!....sigh, except for the bypassing of mind affecting immunity. Now, don't get me wrong, Light's embrace isn't so powerful that I feel that it needs to be nerfed, it's more along the lines of the chassis thing: it doesn't feel right. Again, you're not making the person you're friend (via the mechanics of Power of Friendship, you're actually just making the person good; they can still be hostile towards you), but it doesn't exactly seem right that someone who's supposed to be immune to this sort of thing suddenly isn't and only gets a +4 against the save. This kind of becomes exacerbated later on when they have to make three saves instead of one. I'd say......maybe a +6 would do it. It would really need to be playtested because, at least in my opinion, such creatures should be making their saves "most" of the time since their design is that this sort of thing shouldn't be working in the first place (if you catch my drift). Other than that particular caveat, I'd say this ability is pretty darn cool.

Radiant wonder: I'd say the same thing for the racial immunity, give it a +6 instead of a +4, but other than that this is a good ability to have. Like you said in the spoiler below it, it makes sense.

I'd say that for both Shining Path and Triumph of light nothing needs to be done. Both are fitting and neither are particularly powerful, though you might be able to get away with boosting something with Triumph of Light. Maybe boosting the duration to two rounds? Honestly, in my opinion, you could probably get away with boosting it to three rounds or changing it to twice per encounter (the latter seeming stronger in my opinion).

I can easily see this class building more sophisticated surges and barriers than blasts. In fact, if you were to replace unbreakable with some benefit to either or both of said types of illuminations, I'd think it would be more fitting. That being said, it's not really critical to the fluff, unlike the Bab or the fortitude saves.

Overall, I really, really like this class. Someone that is dedicated to saving the lost is absolutely fitting to the Tome of Radiance. It's so fitting that I'm going to go ahead and re-quote the fluff :smallbiggrin: :


Many are those drawn to the Light from its power. More are drawn by the hope it embodies, the strength that endures almost any challenge and emerges whole. But it is a precious few who are drawn to the Light for one of its simplest and yet most complex treasures. Its sheer, utterly heart-stopping, beauty. The Light is the embodiment of every wondrous childhood memory, every magnificent moment where love is shared and given forever. It is the feel of that first kiss, the bone deep protective love for one’s child and the endless wellspring from which those feelings perpetually flow.

Light’s Artist’s tap into that love-borne beauty, that particular facet of the Light, and make it what they are. Wherever an Artist walks, that beauty follows. Wherever she works her power, it remains for all time. And when she is forced into conflict, it surrounds her in a weave of protective Light that reaches out to her opponent with an offer of utter safety. She will walk through the fire, the storms, and everything else that might be levelled against her. She will never strike back, only acting to defend herself and her comrades. And, when she is close enough, she will reach out to her foe, and wrap them in the comforting arms of Light’s true embrace.

A Light’s Artist is a part of the Light in a way that none of her fellows can ever imagine. She becomes a living conduit of the infinite love and endless forgiveness that is her particular facet of Light. And when faced by foes on all sides, she does not fight them as her sisters would. Instead she reaches within and Embraces those who have lost their way in her loving Light, opening their eyes to themselves and offering them another way out of the hell that has become their life.

Falcon777
2013-08-06, 02:31 PM
Ok, Snowfire, ignore what I said about op saves for the Child of the Light. A STARGAZER has the best saves in the game. How? Grace of eons is far, far, far more powerful than Eternal Grace, especially since a Stargazer can gain extra bonuses to all three saves from a headband of vast intelligence along with bonuses to all three types via the regular attributes (Con=Fort, Dex=Ref, Wis=Will).

Edit1: if I assume a player is playing a Stargazer in a game with wbl, and the character reaches level 20, then the character likely will have a final Int score of 34. That's a +12 modifier to saves! If the character also grabs a cloak of resistance and an archmage's robe (wondrous item slot, not armor), then the character is looking at saves of at the very least 27 fort, 27 reflex, and 33 will. And that's assuming the character has a score of 10 for each of the attributes, which is also unlikely. Much more likely is the character able to afford a +6 belt for both Dex and Con, and that headband covering Wis in addition to Int. That then brings the saves up to 30 for Fort and Refl, and 36 for Will. And if the character is playing in an epic point buy in pathfinder? You can guarantee that he will have a 14 to start with in both Dex and Con, bringing up the respective saves by another two. If he's lucky enough, he might even start out with a Wis of 12.

:smalleek:

Snowfire
2013-08-06, 02:37 PM
Ok, Snowfire, ignore what I said about op saves for the Child of the Light. A STARGAZER has the best saves in the game. How? Grace of eons is far, far, far more powerful than Eternal Grace, especially since a Stargazer can gain extra bonuses to all three saves from a headband of vast intelligence along with bonuses to all three types via the regular attributes (Con=Fort, Dex=Ref, Wis=Will).

Aye, aye, Cap'n! :smalltongue:

Also, just saw your review of Light's Artist and...:smallredface:

Um. Thanks. So, so, much. The points you have made are in very good taste, and I'll be implementing a few changes in that vein once I finish Knight of the Dim Star. Artist of Light was a class that I put a lot of love into, but never was quite sure if I'd gotten it totally right. Now I think I know how to fix that :smallsmile:

And the fact that the fluff was good enough to requote makes me very, very happy :smallredface:

Falcon777
2013-08-06, 02:46 PM
Oh, given that Eternal Grace is a level 3 ability of Child of Light, you might want to also say that it doesn't stack with Grace of Eons. A character with both of those would just be ridiculous.

:smalleek: :smalltongue:

And you are quite welcome. As I've hinted at before in this thread, I have a rabid fascination with light, so when I see classes in a game that I enjoy employ that idea, and they do it well? Yeah, I'm gonna like it.

Dragonus45
2013-08-06, 02:56 PM
The entire point of the class was to make a d&d class based on magical girls.
If anyone is pushed away from it because they're upset by an excess of female pronouns, frankly, if it were my class, I wouldn't want them using my material anyway.

Honestly i thought that saying she was just a standard thing for 3.5 dnd, pathfinder esqu games. Like how a ship is always a she. I can't think of many uses of the male pronoun in any of the PHB class descriptions.

Anyways its not the female pronouns that seem to be keeping my group away, its the simple fact that they know its based of "Those strange anime shows for girls" that seems to be blocking interest. Personally i just want nothing more than to shoot a meter thick laser made of friendship at a dragon, genders be damned.

Snowfire
2013-08-06, 03:01 PM
Oh, given that Eternal Grace is a level 3 ability of Child of Light, you might want to also say that it doesn't stack with Grace of Eons. A character with both of those would just be ridiculous.

:smalleek: :smalltongue:

Done. I've also changed a few things regarding the Miracle effect. Let me know what you think.


And you are quite welcome. As I've hinted at before in this thread, I have a rabid fascination with light, so when I see classes in a game that I enjoy employ that idea, and they do it well? Yeah, I'm gonna like it.

Still thanks. And I'll have changes to Light's Artist up once I'm done with my current PrC. Which, knowing me, probably won't take long.

Also, Dragonus45, your group are silly :smalltongue:

Dragonus45
2013-08-06, 03:06 PM
Also would anyone be interested in a play by post Pathfinder game using these classes with some PF paint slapped onto the skill points. My big bad in the next game i run, in about 4 months if my groups schedule holds, is going to be a Stargazer or a Champion and i want to get a feel for how strong they are before i start going to deep into building her.

Falcon777
2013-08-06, 03:07 PM
Honestly i thought that saying she was just a standard thing for 3.5 dnd, pathfinder esqu games. Like how a ship is always a she. I can't think of many uses of the male pronoun in any of the PHB class descriptions.

Anyways its not the female pronouns that seem to be keeping my group away, its the simple fact that they know its based of "Those strange anime shows for girls" that seems to be blocking interest. Personally i just want nothing more than to shoot a meter thick laser made of friendship at a dragon, genders be damned.

So basically, yeah, it's not so much the she this and her that pronouns used everywhere...but rather the term "Magical Girl." So I wasn't so far off to begin with. :smalltongue:

@Snowfire: The new time costs to the miracle effect are quite good. A once per week for the lesser effects isn't too bad and a full month for the greater effects is definitely good. I guess in a way my main concern with the ability originally was that with enough time the character can cast the spell without any long term cost to herself (25 grand or 5000 xp doesn't just grow on trees, ya know? :smalltongue:). But yeah, this is much, much more manageable.

Edit1: I would totally be up for a game, Dragonus. The fact that it's Pathfinder makes it even better in my book! :smallwink: There is one caveat, though. I'd prefer to play a Stargazer as long as you're cool with it. I don't mind there being more than one, but without you saying so I wouldn't know if you were cool with it as well.

Qwertystop
2013-08-06, 03:14 PM
Also would anyone be interested in a play by post Pathfinder game using these classes with some PF paint slapped onto the skill points. My big bad in the next game i run, in about 4 months if my groups schedule holds, is going to be a Stargazer or a Champion and i want to get a feel for how strong they are before i start going to deep into building her.

I'd be interested.

Also, does the constant capitalization of Light remind anyone else of Wheel of Time? I know it's a distant connection (don't want to be That Guy), but it feels like this system could do pretty well at the more-power and the no-set-spells aspects of the magic system there. Sort of. Ish.

Snowfire
2013-08-06, 03:14 PM
Also would anyone be interested in a play by post Pathfinder game using these classes with some PF paint slapped onto the skill points. My big bad in the next game i run, in about 4 months if my groups schedule holds, is going to be a Stargazer or a Champion and i want to get a feel for how strong they are before i start going to deep into building her.

I would be up for it, but the fact that I know these classes possibly too well might skew your perception of these classes' power level.

P.S. It's over nine thousand :smalltongue:

Edit:


@Snowfire: The new time costs to the miracle effect are quite good. A once per week for the lesser effects isn't too bad and a full month for the greater effects is definitely good. I guess in a way my main concern with the ability originally was that with enough time the character can cast the spell without any long term cost to herself (25 grand or 5000 xp doesn't just grow on trees, ya know? :smalltongue:). But yeah, this is much, much more manageable.

Yay! The war in my brain resulted in a victory for everyone!

:smallbiggrin:

jamieth
2013-08-06, 03:17 PM
Just so you know, people, I am currently in a Tome of Radiance game - though it is 3.5 and Gestalt - but it's not like I don't have enough Evoker concepts for some more :-)

Dragonus45
2013-08-06, 03:18 PM
I would be up for it, but the fact that I know these classes possibly too well might skew your perception of these classes' power level.

P.S. It's over nine thousand :smalltongue:

Well i am trying to design a big bad here, so 9000 sounds about right. Im posting from my phone right now but when i have laptop access i'll post something in the recruiting section.

Snowfire
2013-08-06, 03:23 PM
Well i am trying to design a big bad here, so 9000 sounds about right. Im posting from my phone right now but when i have laptop access i'll post something in the recruiting section.

But, but, I said over nine thousand! :smalltongue:

Falcon777
2013-08-06, 03:35 PM
If anyone even DARES to make an illumination in the actual game and call it Kamehameha...I might just rage quit. :smallmad:

References to that absolutely, horribly, terrible anime that is THE definition of power creep...well, please keep it to the over 9000 thing if you can. Anything else will "probably" give me the shivers before I explode, throwing Falcony parts everywhere. :smalltongue:

Edit1: in other news, who else is liking the newest OOTS chapter that just came out last night?! :smallbiggrin:

Snowfire
2013-08-06, 03:37 PM
If anyone even DARES to make an illumination in the actual game and call it Kamehameha...I might just rage quit. :smallmad:

References to that absolutely, horribly, terrible anime that is THE definition of power creep...well, please keep it to the over 9000 thing if you can. Anything else will "probably" give me the shivers before I explode, throwing Falcony parts everywhere. :smalltongue:

So a kaioken illumination would be right out then? :smalltongue:

No, I don't actually like DBZ. I do enjoy watch the abridged series thought. It's an absolute riot.

Dragonus45
2013-08-06, 03:38 PM
So a kaioken illumination would be right out then? :smalltongue:

No, I don't actually like DBZ. I do enjoy watch the abridged series thought. It's an absolute riot.

I love them both, but i grew up on DBZ so i guess i was inoculated against its idiocy.

Regalus
2013-08-06, 03:50 PM
Color me interested in this game.

Would calling my Empath's illumination in which he calls upon the collective inner strength and passion of his allies into a single orb of highly volatile friendship five times his size a Spirit Bomb be out of bounds as well?

Forrestfire
2013-08-06, 04:22 PM
Color me interested in this game.

Would calling my Empath's illumination in which he calls upon the collective inner strength and passion of his allies into a single orb of highly volatile friendship five times his size a Spirit Bomb be out of bounds as well?

I think that'd be par the course, actually :smallamused:

Falcon777
2013-08-06, 04:24 PM
Color me interested in this game.

Would calling my Empath's illumination in which he calls upon the collective inner strength and passion of his allies into a single orb of highly volatile friendship five times his size a Spirit Bomb be out of bounds as well?

Thank God that's not actually a component of Illuminations. :smallyuk:

Lix Lorn
2013-08-06, 06:12 PM
Shut up and read another prestige class :smalltongue:
Yessir. :smalltongue:


Effect: The Bringer of Twilight gains the Sneak Attack ability of a Rogue of her Class Level when attacking a flat-footed target with her Device. If a Bringer of Twilight gets a sneak attack bonus from another source, the bonuses on damage stack. Duskblade damage does full damage against creatures that would be immune to sneak attack, like constructs and undead.
Only problem I noticed.
If I have four levels of Bringer of Twilight and four Rogue levels, and I shiv a golem, do I do 2d6 sneak attack or 4d6?
AKA, does this upgrade existing sneak attack?

Snowfire
2013-08-06, 06:17 PM
Yessir. :smalltongue:


Only problem I noticed.
If I have four levels of Bringer of Twilight and four Rogue levels, and I shiv a golem, do I do 2d6 sneak attack or 4d6?
AKA, does this upgrade existing sneak attack?

Ah.

Hmm.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

I have no idea? :smalltongue: I'm inclined to say no, but...

I'll think about it and get back to you after I sleep.

Also, any general thoughts in regards to Bringer of Twilight? I'm curious.

sreservoir
2013-08-06, 06:19 PM
I'd interpret it as 2d6, given it specifies "Duskblade damage" and not something to the effect of "your sneak attack damage" (which it is).

make something up ;)

Lix Lorn
2013-08-06, 06:36 PM
Ah.

Hmm.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

I have no idea? :smalltongue: I'm inclined to say no, but...

I'll think about it and get back to you after I sleep.

Also, any general thoughts in regards to Bringer of Twilight? I'm curious.
No is the sensible reply, just in case there's an abusive combo. xD

It's interesting. Very grey.

AmberVael
2013-08-06, 06:46 PM
No is the sensible reply, just in case there's an abusive combo. xD

It's interesting. Very grey.

There really isn't one. There are plenty of prestige classes and other classes that provide sneak attack- they all stack. If someone was gonna break, it already did. So don't worry about it.

Snowfire
2013-08-06, 06:46 PM
It's interesting. Very grey.

I'll admit, grey is as dark as you'll ever really see me go. Dark grey sometimes, but still only grey. Knight of the Dim Star will be fun to see reactions to I think. As it's rather more grey, if in a very particular fashion.

Lix Lorn
2013-08-06, 06:50 PM
There really isn't one. There are plenty of prestige classes and other classes that provide sneak attack- they all stack. If someone was gonna break, it already did. So don't worry about it.
No, it's not the stacking I mean, it's converting all sneak attack to work on constructs that could be broken.


I'll admit, grey is as dark as you'll ever really see me go. Dark grey sometimes, but still only grey. Knight of the Dim Star will be fun to see reactions to I think. As it's rather more grey, if in a very particular fashion.
Pure black is generally boring.

NineThePuma
2013-08-06, 06:55 PM
Golem Strike, weapon crystal of destruction, etc.

There are already ways of dealing with it. the prerequisites are steep enough to make it not a good dip for a pure rogue.

caledscratcher
2013-08-06, 08:07 PM
Given my fascination with both Pathfinder (which I play very infrequently because of moderately long distances between people playing causing trouble) and ToR (which the current DM of my 3.5e group has banned because of his attempts to keep everything relatively simple and manageable), I would want to be involved with a PF ToR PBP more than acronyms seem to want to be involved in my post. In other words, on a level far beyond mortal comprehension.

Falcon777
2013-08-07, 01:09 PM
Well, there's definitely interest for a game here on this forum. Anyone willing to that is experienced? I've only reached level three in my first pbp game here on these boards, so I'd probably not be a good dm.

Snowfire
2013-08-07, 02:00 PM
Eh, if Dragonus doesn't, I will. Any requests as to game tenor/starting level?

vasharanpaladin
2013-08-07, 02:07 PM
...Gah. I'd do something but my interest tends to murder PbP games... :smallfrown:

Falcon777
2013-08-07, 02:16 PM
I'd say it'd be interesting to start somewhere between level 5 and 10. Although I'd be perfectly happy to start at level one too.

As to tenor....I'd say it'd be interesting for the setting to be one of high fantasy where Lightwielders are somewhat rare, though their existence is known and documented. Perhaps Ebberon or Forgotten Realms for a world?

Snowfire
2013-08-07, 03:04 PM
I'd say it'd be interesting to start somewhere between level 5 and 10. Although I'd be perfectly happy to start at level one too.

As to tenor....I'd say it'd be interesting for the setting to be one of high fantasy where Lightwielders are somewhat rare, though their existence is known and documented. Perhaps Ebberon or Forgotten Realms for a world?

Heh. Hehehehe.

Well, if Dragonus doesn't throw something up - and tell us about it - then I'll put something together. Got an old setting that I've never run here before that should fit the bill just fine.

Falcon777
2013-08-07, 03:12 PM
:smalleek: That almost sounds like an evil laugh of someone who's about to torture someone else.

lol. :smalltongue:

Snowfire
2013-08-07, 03:16 PM
:smalleek: That almost sounds like an evil laugh of someone who's about to torture someone else.

lol. :smalltongue:

Really? Oh.

:xykon:

Qwertystop
2013-08-07, 03:29 PM
Eh, if Dragonus doesn't, I will. Any requests as to game tenor/starting level?

Level... Low enough that there's lots of room to grow, but not so low you can't do anything.

Rephrasing: I want to feel like I'm just starting out. Often, first-level D&D with classes that have magic or magic-like things feels like you're not even out of your initial training (or whatever the equivalent is for a class). This system only really has that for Champions - Stargazers have four Illuminations, Empaths have two Personas with two Illuminations each, but Champions have only one Illumination and no Cartridges - all they have going for them is the chassis, and at first level, that's not much.


What's meant by tenor?

Snowfire
2013-08-07, 03:39 PM
Level... Low enough that there's lots of room to grow, but not so low you can't do anything.

Rephrasing: I want to feel like I'm just starting out. Often, first-level D&D with classes that have magic or magic-like things feels like you're not even out of your initial training (or whatever the equivalent is for a class). This system only really has that for Champions - Stargazers have four Illuminations, Empaths have two Personas with two Illuminations each, but Champions have only one Illumination and no Cartridges - all they have going for them is the chassis, and at first level, that's not much.


What's meant by tenor?

I get you, and I can work with it. And by tenor I mean the general feel of the game, that sort of thing.

Lix Lorn
2013-08-07, 03:45 PM
Games are fun I am likely interested.

Snowfire
2013-08-07, 03:58 PM
Games are fun I am likely interested.

Even if I run it? :smalltongue:

NineThePuma
2013-08-07, 04:02 PM
I want Grim Dark 40k style tone with magical girls and we can be all like "FRIENDSHIP FOR THE FRIENDSHIP GOD!" and be grizzly angry magical girls.

Lix Lorn
2013-08-07, 04:02 PM
Maybe. How evil are you? :smalltongue:

Snowfire
2013-08-07, 04:20 PM
Maybe. How evil are you? :smalltongue:

Which type of evil we talking here Lixie?


I want Grim Dark 40k style tone with magical girls and we can be all like "FRIENDSHIP FOR THE FRIENDSHIP GOD!" and be grizzly angry magical girls.

.....

I'm currently stuck somewhere between bemused rejection and hysterical laughter regarding that comment. So I'ma just gonna let it slide by unless you clarify it as being actually serious.

Tell you what, I'll give Dragonus until the end of the week to put something together (by which I mean Sunday) and then if we have nothing by then I'll throw something together.

For those of you who have seen my Light of Amber universe, this will not be it. That's not to say that you won't be out to save the world (or possibly multiverse), but that there's going to be a lot less in the way of help.

I'm currently thinking somewhere in the level 3-5 bracket as a starting point. Progression will be reasonably quick, combats will be no-holds-barred brutal - but beatable in truly heroic fashion - and somewhere along the line I'll probably kick the Mythic stuff I built for ToR into the game. It could use a playtest :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

NineThePuma
2013-08-07, 04:54 PM
I'm currently stuck somewhere between bemused rejection and hysterical laughter regarding that comment. So I'ma just gonna let it slide by unless you clarify it as being actually serious.

It's entirely serious. I want a jokey Grim dark campaign that tries to act super dark but is so adorably awkward and bad at it that it's hysterical laughter inducing.

Snowfire
2013-08-07, 04:59 PM
It's entirely serious. I want a jokey Grim dark campaign that tries to act super dark but is so adorably awkward and bad at it that it's hysterical laughter inducing.

Ah. Wrong DM for that sort of thing I'm afraid. Sorry.

Qwertystop
2013-08-07, 05:08 PM
I get you, and I can work with it. And by tenor I mean the general feel of the game, that sort of thing.

Okay, then. Politicking not required (fine with it being an option, but having a party face or two should be enough). Maybe the perspective on Light that points out that the PEP can be horribly fatal? That is, the yin-yang, each-has-a-little-of-the-other view? That's really secondary, though.

vasharanpaladin
2013-08-07, 08:15 PM
...Want to play a Night Devil. Will have to wait for the Sixteen to go up, my interest tends to curse PbP games, unless GameTable is used... :smallfrown:

Falcon777
2013-08-07, 09:38 PM
Oh, I also highly recommend Rich Burlew's diplomacy system. It basically, (at least in my opinion) fixes the diplomacy skill. If you google his name and the word diplomacy after it, the correct link will come up as the first option (or at least it should).

Edit1: it also makes it such that the diplomacy skill isn't entirely a crapshoot for characters other than the "party face" to dip into, at least assuming you're playing pathfinder. If you're playing in 3.5 where the system penalizes you for putting points into cross class skills instead of rewarding you for putting points into class skills, well I can't help you with that.

NineThePuma
2013-08-07, 09:40 PM
Alternatively, you can just grab it off this site that he conveniently owns. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172910)

Draken
2013-08-07, 10:55 PM
Alternatively, you can just grab it off this site that he conveniently owns. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172910)

In this very section of the forum, at that.

Dragonus45
2013-08-08, 11:35 AM
Sorry about that things just got very very hectic for me, and it's turning into good evidence that every play by post game i attempt to start will end in homelessness, but it looks like i might be to busy to run a campaign, so if you wanted to make one instead be my guest. I'll be sure to sumbit a character.




Tell you what, I'll give Dragonus until the end of the week to put something together (by which I mean Sunday) and then if we have nothing by then I'll throw something together.

For those of you who have seen my Light of Amber universe, this will not be it. That's not to say that you won't be out to save the world (or possibly multiverse), but that there's going to be a lot less in the way of help.

I'm currently thinking somewhere in the level 3-5 bracket as a starting point. Progression will be reasonably quick, combats will be no-holds-barred brutal - but beatable in truly heroic fashion - and somewhere along the line I'll probably kick the Mythic stuff I built for ToR into the game. It could use a playtest :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

Also that sounds much much better than anything i could have managed.

Snowfire
2013-08-08, 11:39 AM
Sorry about that things just got very very hectic for me, and it's turning into good evidence that every play by post game i attempt to start will end in homelessness, but it looks like i might be to busy to run a campaign, so if you wanted to make one instead be my guest. I'll be sure to sumbit something.

Also that sounds much much better than anything i could have managed.

I'll throw something together then. Just need to dig out the notebook and work out how far into the deep end I want to toss you as a starting point.

Snowfire
2013-08-08, 06:11 PM
I will have a thread up for the promised game by the end of the week. For now, look! I made another PrC!

I'll have full explanation spoiler stuff added in the morning. For now, please tell me what you think.


Knight of the Dim Star

You only know how bright the Light is when you stand alone in the darkness with no one to judge your actions. When you return from that crucible, then you are changed.
– First Tenant of the Order of the Dim Star

None chooses the Order of the Dim Star. It is a burden brought upon the young and innocent, taking both away in exchange for great expertise and determination in the war against the darkness. These valiant warriors are compelled to make certain that no other need suffer through their brand of enlightenment.

Once the Knight was lost amongst the darkness, surrounded by evil, depravity and vice so intense that it robbed them of their sacred innocence, the pure radiance that was once theirs sullied. However where others might have despaired or surrendered to what they saw as defeat, these stubborn women refused to bend knee. They embraced the truth of the world, that sometimes bad things must happen to bad people in order for good people to be left alone. Ignorance is a privilege, that is their secret creed.

They are no longer bound by the codes they once held so dear. They are pragmatists and uncompromising in their struggle, the pale and dim radiance that surrounds them keeping them hidden from sight even as they leave a trail of blood and destruction in their wake.

From destruction, death.
From death, rebirth.
From rebirth, cleansing.
From cleansing, purity.
From purity, bliss.

Together they build a world which, if they succeed, will have no need for people such as they. That is the price they pay, willingly, for a better world.

And let not even the darkest night be safe where even the dimmest light shines.

Requirements
To become a Knight of the Dim Star, you must fulfil the following criteria:
Skills: 8 skill points in four of Bluff, Disguise, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Forgery, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock and Sleight of Hand
Saves: +5 Will Saving Throw
Special: Evoker Level 10, must have had the opportunity to turn Evil and either rejected or resisted it

This is something of a 'veteran' class, requiring a good spread of skills, a good will save - for reasons explained below, and some rather specific circumstances. Oh yeah, and it's an 11th level entry.

Class Skill List: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge [Dungeoneering] (Int), Knowledge [History] (Int), Knowledge [Local] (Int), Knowledge [Nobility] (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex) Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magical Device (Cha)

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Lots and lots of skills coupled with a good number of skill points. Might seem a bit much, but Knights go places that most Evokers would never dream of, and they have to be able to pass unseen.

Knight of the Dim Star

Hit Dice: d10


LevelBase Attack BonusFort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSpecialIlluminations
1st
+1
+2
+0
+2Remembered Weaving, Mask of the Fallen
2nd
+2
+3
+0
+3Blade of a Brighter World
+1 level of existing class
3rd
+3
+3
+1
+3Light to the Memory
4th
+4
+4
+1
+4Mark of the Dim Star
+1 level of existing class
5th
+5
+4
+1
+4In the Dark, Of the Light
6th
+6
+5
+2
+5Falling Star’s Sight
+1 level of existing class
7th
+7
+5
+2
+5Punishments In A House of Darkness
8th
+8
+6
+2
+6A Trail of Blood and Sorrow
+1 level of existing class
9th
+9
+6
+3
+6No Safety in Night
10th
+10
+7
+3
+7Judgement of the Star-eyed Sanction
+1 level of existing class


Similar chassis to the Listener to Light actually, but with different saves (I think) and a higher HD. Considering the rather different focus of this class though, that makes sense.

Illuminations: At their core, Illuminations are nothing less than the purity and innocence of a Lightwielder made manifest to humble their foes. There is almost nothing more intrinsic to the vision of a Lightwielder than these manifestations of her power. But a Knight of the Dim Star is not what many would call a Lightwielder. Not anymore. Their purity and innocence is gone, ripped away by the harshness of their experiences in the world. And with that goes much of their power.

A Knight gains Illuminations and EL as shown. If she has more than one Evoking Class, then she must choose one of them when she takes her first level in Knight. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.

Remembered Weaving: A Knight still remembers bits and pieces of the power that was once hers, and remains fully capable of tapping into their strength. But as with anything once lost, it is a faint, faded memory of what she would be capable of if she had not been so broken.

A Knight of the Dim Star gains additional costume elements as her Evoker Level and Illuminations progress. As such, a Champion 10/Knight of the Dim Star 10, would have access to four costume elements.

Mask of the Fallen (Ex): When innocence is ripped from your heart, there are none who walk from the ordeal unscathed. And for those who wield the powers of Light, connected to that ideal like no other can be, little is left unbroken. Knights survive this breaking through the creation of their Mask, a mental construct that allows them to separate themselves from the pain of their loss. It takes great mental fortitude to create such a thing, but none but one with such could hope to emerge from such an ordeal even partially sane.

At first level, a Knight of the Dim Star gain absolute immunity to alignment detection spells, reflecting the malleable nature of their Mask. They are always aware of when their alignment is being scanned and only return a reading – of their choice – if they so choose. In physical reflection of this ability, a Knight may create a disguise in half the normal time and reduces any penalties from assuming a disguise of a different gender, race, age or size by 1.

Blade of a Brighter World (Su): The Order of the Dim Star takes no pleasure in its existence, but its members go about their duty with a dedication that is almost more frightening then their ability. Their weapons and raiment reflect this grim power, burning with a pale fire when summoned to face enemies of the Light, and granting their bearer great power.

At level two a Knight imbues her weapons with an echo of the harsh and pale fire that is all that remains of their personal Light, gaining a special Costume Effect that is always active and in addition to all others. This costume effect, however, does not have a base effect. Its Essence and Cartridge Boost effects are described below:

Essence Boost: For every mote invested in this effect, up to an investment ceiling of twice your class level, you gain two motes that can be used only to invest into other costume and device effects.
Cartridge Boost: When you expend a Cartridge to boost the effects of Blade of a Brighter World, choose two costume or device effects that you have active and trigger the Cartridge Boost effect for both.

Light to the Memory (Su): Knights are rare creatures, those who survived the loss of – arguably – everything that made them who and what they were. And yet that rarity, for all it is a blessing, is also something of a curse. For the Dark hates them, hates them almost more than the so much rarer Children of Light, for the Knights – in the unbiased opinion of the Dark – cheat. They refuse to break when their innocence is taken from them, refuse to bow and change when the world is made to demand it, and they. Never. Stop. And yet, the Light likes the Knights little better. Those who wield its power truly – as some would say – see the Knights as terribly broken.

So the Knights learnt to hide themselves from those of Light and Dark that would seek to hinder them. They twist the Light within them, into a shield that will keep those of Light safe from them and those of Dark unaware. There are many, many tales as to the nature of this protection, and what the first of the Knights gave to attain it, but they are – must be – simply tales.

At third level, the memory of a Knight’s action fades far quicker than could be expected, as does the memory of a Knight themself. All those who witness the actions of a Knight must make a DC [10 + class level + Evoker Stat Modifier] Will save to identify her as such when questioned on the subject. Any who fail five consecutive saves against this effect rationalise the event into a local story or legend. In addition, any attempts to obtain information about Knights through divination magic requires the caster to make a caster level check against the same DC for the spell to succeed.

Mark of the Dim Star (Sp/Su): Those who lose their purity are never truly the same again, even those who wear the mask of sanity and peace are not truly so after such an ordeal. At the most basic level they are now damaged, altered by trauma that none should be capable of bearing, and this leaves a mark on even the most stalwart soul. But the Order of the Dim Star turns this mark into a weapon, one with which they can seek the true heart of evil and darkness. For damaged souls call to damaged souls, and as they grow wiser Knights learn to use this connection and calling as a powerful tool with which to cast aside the illusions of the wicked.

A fourth level Knight gains the ability to detect one alignment opposed to their own. This ability functions as at will use of the Detect spell for the chosen alignment and is a spell-like ability. In addition to this, Knights also gain a powerful supernatural ability to pierce illusions and disguises. When a Knight sees an illusion or disguise spell of any sort, she immediately makes a Will save to see through it. She need not interact with or touch the illusion, sensory contact alone is enough to grant the Will save.

In the Dark, Of the Light (Su): As the first tenant of their Order states, one never knows how bright the Light truly is until you have stood alone in Darkness, with none to judge your actions. Knights know this better than most, the experience that made them what they now are the ultimate testament to that understanding. They learn to shine as the icon of their order does, faint and hidden in the darkness that they routinely surround themselves with.

At level five, a Knight completes the painful learning experience of how to become any role that they need to be. When subjected to any ability that scans her surface thoughts, she may choose what thoughts her opponent detects and her true surface thoughts remain private. This ability does not protect against abilities that delve deeper than surface thoughts, nor against mental attacks. Further building upon the powers of her Mask, a Knight also gains the ability to assume a false alignment such that all alignment based spells and magical items affect her as if she was the alignment of her choice; this includes helpful and harmful effects. Assuming a false alignment is a standard action, and it lasts until the Knight changes it again or ends the effect (a free action).

Falling Star’s Sight (Su): A falling star sees all as it descends from the heavens, streaking across the sky in an instant before fading forever from view in a shower of light. And the dim star above them sees all they see and more, for it is unseen by many who scan the skies for threats to their power. As it is with those stars, so it is with the Knights of follow their banner, and the Sight of the Falling Star is a tool unlike any known to the world.

At sixth level, Knights of the Dim Star gain access to the second most feared – and arguably most visually iconic – of all their abilities. The power to see through disguise and render lies unspoken under the pale glow of their sight. As a standard action, a Knight may activate Falling Star’s Sight, at which point the ability remains active for a minimum of one minute – up to a maximum of a minute/level/per day. Whilst under the effects of this ability, the Knight’s eyes are replaced by a replica of a clear night’s sky, every star burning with the cracked Light of the Order of which they are part. Falling Star’s Sight acts the spell True Seeing, but with the following modifications:

First, the Knight’s sight pierces mundane deceptions as easily as it does illusions, allowing none to hide from their gaze. Second, they automatically know whenever one is under the effect of spells or abilities that allow them to ignore the effects of spells and abilities that force one to tell the truth, and are instinctively aware of when someone not so protected lies to them.

Punishments In A House Of Darkness (Su): The Mask of a Knight shifts and evolves as the Knight grows in power, growing from simply a mask to a mark, and then again to what the Order calls a Punishment. Punishments are those who have walked the road of the Order almost to its completion, and with this penultimate change to their Mask the Knight is called to strike out at the Dark which once humbled them, to seek justice – or vengeance – for the terrible wounds inflicted upon them. And against those which they know serve the dark, there is little mercy.

A Knight of the Dim Star of seventh level chooses an alignment opposed to hers and gains the ability to Smite those of that alignment. Once per encounter for every three class levels she possesses, a Knight may enhance a single melee attack with this ability. The Knight adds her Evoker Stat Modifier to her attack roll, her class level to damage, and the attack bypasses any DR that her target might possess. If she accidentally uses this ability on a creature not of her chosen alignment the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used for the encounter.

A Trail of Blood and Sorrow (Su): None know sorrow like the Knights of the Dim Star. They are broken beyond measure by the standards of other Lightwielders and they know it, forever barred from holding the Light to which they gave everything. Such sorrow is a terrible thing, and the hands of experienced Knights, it becomes another weapon in their arsenal. Rarely called upon, and remembered in fear by any who witness it and survive, the sorrow of a fallen Lightwielder is a power that none who are sane deliberately provoke.

Once per day, when confronted again by the same or a similar darkness as to that which broke them, a Knight of the Dim Star may choose to activate this ability as a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Dim, terrible light erupts around the Knight, burning away any bonds that might hold them and instantly summoning their Radiant Armaments. The Knight may immediately take a full round of actions, but may not take any action akin to retreat from or mercy to those who have so provoked them. Overriding this compulsion requires a successful Will save against a DC of [10 + class level + Evoker Stat Modifier]. In addition, the Knight temporarily gains the Frightful Presence feat (Draconomicon, p.105), the DC of which is based off of the Knight’s Evoker Stat. The compulsion and temporary feat gained through activating A Trail of Blood and Sorrow’s last until the end of the encounter.

No Safety in Night (Su): To the Dark and its servants, the night is safety, a place where the Light must tread either openly in glory, or with secrecy and trepidation. Not so the Knights of the Dim Star. Their sight pierces the dark without care for the need of Light, and their star-filled eyes bring a swift end to the illusions behind which those of the Dark hide themselves. Tremble in fear, wicked and accursed, for your veils of magic and disguise will not hide you. Tremble!

This ability enhances a Knight’s Fallen Star’s Sight, allowing them to tear away the illusions that – until now – only they could see through. By expending a minute of their per day use of that ability, a Knight may make a caster level check – treating their caster level as twice their class level – against any number of the illusions that she is aware of. Those effects against which she succeeds are dispelled as Greater Dispel Magic. Effects resulting from items are suppressed for one minute. Mundane disguises and deceptions are simply evaporated under the gaze of the star-eyed.

In addition to this enhancement, the Knight's connection to the Dim Star now reaches into the most basic level of their being and changes something in the way they see the world. The Knight adds the See in Darkness supernatural ability of a devil to their racial traits.

Judgement of the Star Eyed Sanction (Su/Ex): The justice of a Knight of the Dim Star is an often terrible thing to behold, but the most powerful of their Order are capable of handing down a punishment of such dreadful severity and power that it is said that on the day it was first invoked, the Gods of Law were shaken in their courts and palaces. In the most terrifying manifestation of all their powers, Grandmasters of the Order tear away the tapestry of lies that surround those of the Dark and force them to speak the truth of their actions. And once their crimes are laid bare to the world, they are banished beyond reach of those who would seek to redeem them. Cast into a world of shadow and darkness, they face an eternal punishment for their crimes at the hands of a shard of the Knight’s Mask.

But there is more to the Star Eyed sanction than ever meets the eye, for as it is the final weapon with which the Order of the Dim Star cleanses the world, it is also a power that can, if she so chooses, lead to a Knight’s rebirth.

At level ten, whilst under the effect of Fallen Star’s Sight, a Knight may target any foe within her line of sight with her Judgement. The pale half-light of their icon erupts around her, forming chains of bale power that reach out to bind her target in place. The target is allowed a single will save against the effects of the Judgement, against a DC of [15 + class level + Evoker Stat Modifier]. If they succeed, they manage to shrug off the Judgement in its opening stages, before the Knight digs too deeply into their mind. The trauma of being assaulted in such a fashion leaves marks however, inflicting 1d4 points of ability damage to each of the target’s mental ability scores. If the target fails their save, the Judgement proceeds to the Sanction.

The target is forced to verbally recant their crimes – although a Knight may end this recital at any time of her choosing. Upon ending their testimony, the target is banished into a locked Demiplane known only to those of the Order, and is left in that world of agonizing shadows at the mercy of a shard of the Knight’s own Mask. Divination spells to obtain information about the target or their location automatically fail, and the only way to enter the Demiplane is with the aid of a Knight capable of the Sanction.

After five uses of this ability, the true power of the Sanctions manifests before the Knight to grant her a single, incredible choice. For in each use of the Sanction, a Knight casts away a piece of her Mask until it is all but vanished, inflicting the due punishment upon those she has imprisoned. The final truth of the Order is whispered into her mind, and she is offered a final choice; to cast aside the Mask that she created for herself, or to become it.

A Knight who chooses to cast their Mask aside immediately looses all their levels in Knight, and may replace them with ten levels from any Tome of Radiance PrC that they qualify for. Their lost purity restored through their final rejection of what they became upon its loss, the Light welcomes them fully back into its embrace. The Mask remains however, now free from its mortal shell in the Demiplane of the Knights, and will not pause in its duty unless the redeemed Knight finds her way to that Demiplane and orders it to cease.

A Knight who chooses the latter option, to become the Mask that they have built, gains in full the terrible power of the Dim Star, becoming one with the pale echo of the pure Light that they once wielded. The Knight gains the ability to Plane Shift (Self only + 50 lbs. of non-living material) to the prison Demiplane to oversee the punishment of those she has Judged and Sanctioned there, and directly back to where she came from. Upon accepting her Mask, the Knight is actually automatically transferred to that Demiplane where she joins again with that Mask and – in doing so – gains the following benefits.

First, the Mask grants her a permanent Mind Blank effect, modified such that it grants the Knight a saving throw at a +4 modifier against any non-Epic effects that would pierce it, such as Metafaculty. Second, the Knight counts as a specific alignment only when it would be in her benefit to do so. Third, she is automatically aware of the visible alignments of those within her line of sight – limited as all Detect spells are in regards to interposed material. Fourth, she gains a bonus equal to half her class level to Disguise checks and the nature of her Mask means that any disguises she crafts for herself cannot be seen through by non-magical means. Finally, her Smite ability may affect any alignment and remains in effect against any target struck by it until that target is either dead or incapacitated – or until the Knight next rests and regains her uses of the ability.

Lix Lorn
2013-08-08, 07:13 PM
Iiiiiiiiiiinteresting.
The only mechanical issue I'd have is that smite is not strong enough to be per day. It should be per encounter, imo.
(I'd also edit the capstone to let them swap to a PrC that they qualify, or to just take a straight ten levels of base class)

Qwertystop
2013-08-08, 07:53 PM
Just one thing to point out:
The prerequisites don't prevent someone Evil from becoming a Knight, by having refused once and changed later. Even someone who started out Evil could get in with a Helm of Opposite Alignment and a helpful ally, if you're not capable of killing them - put it on, become Good, stop them from taking it off you the first time, then they force their way past you to do it the second time. Whether this was intended I don't know.

Selinia
2013-08-09, 02:10 AM
Holy glub I have so much catchup to do. :smalleek:

On the bright side, my final exam for summer courses is now done and submitted, so I have almost two full weeks of time off before the fall semester starts up! I'm hoping to start catching up on this, now that I don't have giant piles of coursework destroying any semblance of free time.

Still, sorry for the absence. It was probably a bad idea to get started on the costume overhaul when I was in the middle of a bunch of other stuff. :smallsigh:

Snowfire
2013-08-09, 03:41 AM
Just one thing to point out:
The prerequisites don't prevent someone Evil from becoming a Knight, by having refused once and changed later. Even someone who started out Evil could get in with a Helm of Opposite Alignment and a helpful ally, if you're not capable of killing them - put it on, become Good, stop them from taking it off you the first time, then they force their way past you to do it the second time. Whether this was intended I don't know.

I will point out that that involves the character knowing things about the class that only the player does, so it's kinda a moot point. As to the fact that the pre-reqs don't prevent evil Knights? Yeah, that's pretty much deliberate. Knight of the Dim Star evolved out of a Gray Guard type ideal - the original for which is still in progress - and the Order doesn't much care about your alignment as long as you hold to their tenants. Are Knights - at some basic level - usually acting to destroy evil, well yes. But that says nothing as to their methods. And the fact that they're vaguely memory-proof allows them to get away with quite a few things that most couldn't.


Iiiiiiiiiiinteresting.
The only mechanical issue I'd have is that smite is not strong enough to be per day. It should be per encounter, imo.
(I'd also edit the capstone to let them swap to a PrC that they qualify, or to just take a straight ten levels of base class)

The Smite is actually deliberately not as strong as that of a Paladin or other such class, mainly because making it so would be too strong when taken with all the other boosts a Knight gains access to. Considering that it gives you an attack pretty much guaranteed to hit assuming you kept on pushing your Evoker Stat, I think that's good enough when you take into account the damage boost and the fact that it totally bypasses your foe's DR :smallwink:

I'm up in the air on the 'or base class' score, mainly because I'm unsure it fits. I may change it at some point, but we'll see.

Also, yay! Selinia's back! Hope we haven't made too much work for you and that your exams all went well. Oh and is there a reason that Light's Artist and Child of Light aren't linked on the front page? :smalltongue:

Dragonus45
2013-08-09, 07:06 AM
Looking at the skills for entry it best feels like a prestige for a rogue multiclas, but that evoker level 10 requirement makes me think that it would be imposible to get all ten levels in a normal 20 level campaign, unless im missing something. Yea unless your an empath.

Snowfire
2013-08-09, 07:12 AM
Looking at the skills for entry it best feels like a prestige for a rogue multiclas, but that evoker level 10 requirement makes me think that it would be imposible to get all ten levels in a normal 20 level campaign, unless im missing something.

There's a feat that helps you get around that.

Practiced Evoker
Your studies in other subjects have not led you to neglect your inner radiance. It may not be the sole focus of your training, but your luminous spirit burns bright as ever.

Prerequisites: Illuminations class feature
Benefit: Your evoker level increases by two, up to a maximum of your HD.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.

Multiclassing rogue or another skilly class will help with this, but it's still possible to get 8 ranks (for a +4 modifier) in four cross class skills as a full Evoker - so long as you have a reasonable Int bonus.

Dragonus45
2013-08-09, 07:33 AM
Ahh, that would be my lack on knowledge of the ToR kicking in. Also i thought in 3.5 that the max skill rank for a cross class skill was half of your level? Or have i just been playing pathfinder for to long.

Snowfire
2013-08-09, 07:36 AM
Ahh, that would be my lack on knowledge of the ToR kicking in. Also i thought in 3.5 that the max skill rank for a cross class skill was half of your level? Or have i just been playing pathfinder for to long.

Skill rank is not the same as ranks invested, at least as far as I've always been concerned. I see rank and points as synonymous, and as it takes 2 skill points to get a single +1 modifier, it works out.

Dragonus45
2013-08-09, 07:38 AM
Skill rank is not the same as ranks invested, at least as far as I've always been concerned. I see rank and points as synonymous, and as it takes 2 skill points to get a single +1 modifier, it works out.

O ok, now that i think about it i have never seen that come up before.

jamieth
2013-08-09, 07:54 AM
Skill rank is not the same as ranks invested, at least as far as I've always been concerned. I see rank and points as synonymous, and as it takes 2 skill points to get a single +1 modifier, it works out.


3.5 rules, though, unfortunately don't see it like that. Rank is an actual number you add to your stat modifier, and is capped, for cross-class skills, at one half of (level + 3) (and costs 2 Skill points/rank), so, under RAW, no getting 8 ranks in a cross-class skill by level 10.

Snowfire
2013-08-09, 07:56 AM
3.5 rules, though, unfortunately don't see it like that. Rank is an actual number you add to your stat modifier, and is capped, for cross-class skills, at one half of (level + 3) (and costs 2 Skill points/rank), so, under RAW, no getting 8 ranks in a cross-class skill by level 10.

Ah, thank you for the clarification. Fixed.

Falcon777
2013-08-09, 08:17 AM
I will have a thread up for the promised game by the end of the week. For now, look! I made another PrC!

I'll have full explanation spoiler stuff added in the morning. For now, please tell me what you think.


Knight of the Dim Star

You only know how bright the Light is when you stand alone in the darkness with no one to judge your actions. When you return from that crucible, then you are changed.
– First Tenant of the Order of the Dim Star

None chooses the Order of the Dim Star. It is a burden brought upon the young and innocent, taking both away in exchange for great expertise and determination in the war against the darkness. These valiant warriors are compelled to make certain that no other need suffer through their brand of enlightenment.

Once the Knight was lost amongst the darkness, surrounded by evil, depravity and vice so intense that it robbed them of their sacred innocence, the pure radiance that was once theirs sullied. However where others might have despaired or surrendered to what they saw as defeat, these stubborn women refused to bend knee. They embraced the truth of the world, that sometimes bad things must happen to bad people in order for good people to be left alone. Ignorance is a privilege, that is their secret creed.

They are no longer bound by the codes they once held so dear. They are pragmatists and uncompromising in their struggle, the pale and dim radiance that surrounds them keeping them hidden from sight even as they leave a trail of blood and destruction in their wake.

From destruction, death.
From death, rebirth.
From rebirth, cleansing.
From cleansing, purity.
From purity, bliss.

Together they build a world which, if they succeed, will have no need for people such as they. That is the price they pay, willingly, for a better world.

And let not even the darkest night be safe where even the dimmest light shines.

Requirements
To become a Knight of the Dim Star, you must fulfil the following criteria:
Skills: 8 ranks in four of Bluff, Disguise, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Forgery, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock and Sleight of Hand
Saves: +5 Will Saving Throw
Special: Evoker Level 10, must have had the opportunity to turn Evil and either rejected or resisted it

This is something of a 'veteran' class, requiring a good spread of skills, a good will save - for reasons explained below, and some rather specific circumstances. Oh yeah, and it's an 11th level entry.

Class Skill List: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge [Dungeoneering] (Int), Knowledge [History] (Int), Knowledge [Local] (Int), Knowledge [Nobility] (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex) Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magical Device (Cha)

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Lots and lots of skills coupled with a good number of skill points. Might seem a bit much, but Knights go places that most Evokers would never dream of, and they have to be able to pass unseen.

Knight of the Dim Star

Hit Dice: d10

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Illuminations

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|Remembered Weaving, Mask of the Fallen|

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|Blade of a Brighter World|
+1 level of existing class

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|Light to the Memory|

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|Mark of the Dim Star|
+1 level of existing class|

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|In the Dark, Of the Light|

6th|
+6|
+5|
+2|
+5|Falling Star’s Sight|
+1 level of existing class

7th|
+7|
+5|
+2|
+5|Punishments In A House of Darkness|

8th|
+8|
+6|
+2|
+6|A Trail of Blood and Sorrow|
+1 level of existing class

9th|
+9|
+6|
+3|
+6|No Safety in Night|

10th|
+10|
+7|
+3|
+7|Judgement of the Star-eyed Sanction|
+1 level of existing class[/table]

Similar chassis to the Listener to Light actually, but with different saves (I think) and a higher HD. Considering the rather different focus of this class though, that makes sense.

Illuminations: At their core, Illuminations are nothing less than the purity and innocence of a Lightwielder made manifest to humble their foes. There is almost nothing more intrinsic to the vision of a Lightwielder than these manifestations of her power. But a Knight of the Dim Star is not what many would call a Lightwielder. Not anymore. Their purity and innocence is gone, ripped away by the harshness of their experiences in the world. And with that goes much of their power.

A Knight gains Illuminations and EL as shown. If she has more than one Evoking Class, then she must choose one of them when she takes her first level in Knight. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.

Remembered Weaving: A Knight still remembers bits and pieces of the power that was once hers, and remains fully capable of tapping into their strength. But as with anything once lost, it is a faint, faded memory of what she would be capable of if she had not been so broken.

A Knight of the Dim Star gains additional costume elements as her Evoker Level and Illuminations progress. As such, a Champion 10/Knight of the Dim Star 10, would have access to four costume elements.

Mask of the Fallen (Ex): When innocence is ripped from your heart, there are none who walk from the ordeal unscathed. And for those who wield the powers of Light, connected to that ideal like no other can be, little is left unbroken. Knights survive this breaking through the creation of their Mask, a mental construct that allows them to separate themselves from the pain of their loss. It takes great mental fortitude to create such a thing, but none but one with such could hope to emerge from such an ordeal even partially sane.

At first level, a Knight of the Dim Star gain absolute immunity to alignment detection spells, reflecting the malleable nature of their Mask. They are always aware of when their alignment is being scanned and only return a reading – of their choice – if they so choose. In physical reflection of this ability, a Knight may create a disguise in half the normal time and reduces any penalties from assuming a disguise of a different gender, race, age or size by 1.

Blade of a Brighter World (Su): The Order of the Dim Star takes no pleasure in its existence, but its members go about their duty with a dedication that is almost more frightening then their ability. Their weapons and raiment reflect this grim power, burning with a pale fire when summoned to face enemies of the Light, and granting their bearer great power.

At level two a Knight imbues her weapons with an echo of the harsh and pale fire that is all that remains of their personal Light, gaining a special Costume Effect that is always active and in addition to all others. This costume effect, however, does not have a base effect. Its Essence and Cartridge Boost effects are described below:

Essence Boost: For every mote invested in this effect, up to an investment ceiling of twice your class level, you gain two motes that can be used only to invest into other costume and device effects.
Cartridge Boost: When you expend a Cartridge to boost the effects of Blade of a Brighter World, choose two costume or device effects that you have active and trigger the Cartridge Boost effect for both.

Light to the Memory (Su): Knights are rare creatures, those who survived the loss of – arguably – everything that made them who and what they were. And yet that rarity, for all it is a blessing, is also something of a curse. For the Dark hates them, hates them almost more than the so much rarer Children of Light, for the Knights – in the unbiased opinion of the Dark – cheat. They refuse to break when their innocence is taken from them, refuse to bow and change when the world is made to demand it, and they. Never. Stop. And yet, the Light likes the Knights little better. Those who wield its power truly – as some would say – see the Knights as terribly broken.

So the Knights learnt to hide themselves from those of Light and Dark that would seek to hinder them. They twist the Light within them, into a shield that will keep those of Light safe from them and those of Dark unaware. There are many, many tales as to the nature of this protection, and what the first of the Knights gave to attain it, but they are – must be – simply tales.

At third level, the memory of a Knight’s action fades far quicker than could be expected, as does the memory of a Knight themself. All those who witness the actions of a Knight must make a DC [10 + class level + Evoker Stat Modifier] Will save to identify her as such when questioned on the subject. Any who fail five consecutive saves against this effect rationalise the event into a local story or legend. In addition, any attempts to obtain information about Knights through divination magic requires the caster to make a caster level check against the same DC for the spell to succeed.

Mark of the Dim Star (Sp/Su): Those who lose their purity are never truly the same again, even those who wear the mask of sanity and peace are not truly so after such an ordeal. At the most basic level they are now damaged, altered by trauma that none should be capable of bearing, and this leaves a mark on even the most stalwart soul. But the Order of the Dim Star turns this mark into a weapon, one with which they can seek the true heart of evil and darkness. For damaged souls call to damaged souls, and as they grow wiser Knights learn to use this connection and calling as a powerful tool with which to cast aside the illusions of the wicked.

A fourth level Knight gains the ability to detect one alignment opposed to their own. This ability functions as at will use of the Detect spell for the chosen alignment and is a spell-like ability. In addition to this, Knights also gain a powerful supernatural ability to pierce illusions and disguises. When a Knight sees an illusion or disguise spell of any sort, she immediately makes a Will save to see through it. She need not interact with or touch the illusion, sensory contact alone is enough to grant the Will save.

In the Dark, Of the Light (Su): As the first tenant of their Order states, one never knows how bright the Light truly is until you have stood alone in Darkness, with none to judge your actions. Knights know this better than most, the experience that made them what they now are the ultimate testament to that understanding. They learn to shine as the icon of their order does, faint and hidden in the darkness that they routinely surround themselves with.

At level five, a Knight completes the painful learning experience of how to become any role that they need to be. When subjected to any ability that scans her surface thoughts, she may choose what thoughts her opponent detects and her true surface thoughts remain private. This ability does not protect against abilities that delve deeper than surface thoughts, nor against mental attacks. Further building upon the powers of her Mask, a Knight also gains the ability to assume a false alignment such that all alignment based spells and magical items affect her as if she was the alignment of her choice; this includes helpful and harmful effects. Assuming a false alignment is a standard action, and it lasts until the Knight changes it again or ends the effect (a free action).

Falling Star’s Sight (Su): A falling star sees all as it descends from the heavens, streaking across the sky in an instant before fading forever from view in a shower of light. And the dim star above them sees all they see and more, for it is unseen by many who scan the skies for threats to their power. As it is with those stars, so it is with the Knights of follow their banner, and the Sight of the Falling Star is a tool unlike any known to the world.

At sixth level, Knights of the Dim Star gain access to the second most feared – and arguably most visually iconic – of all their abilities. The power to see through disguise and render lies unspoken under the pale glow of their sight. As a standard action, a Knight may activate Falling Star’s Sight, at which point the ability remains active for a minimum of one minute – up to a maximum of a minute/level/per day. Whilst under the effects of this ability, the Knight’s eyes are replaced by a replica of a clear night’s sky, every star burning with the cracked Light of the Order of which they are part. Falling Star’s Sight acts the spell True Seeing, but with the following modifications:

First, the Knight’s sight pierces mundane deceptions as easily as it does illusions, allowing none to hide from their gaze. Second, they automatically know whenever one is under the effect of spells or abilities that allow them to ignore the effects of spells and abilities that force one to tell the truth, and are instinctively aware of when someone not so protected lies to them.

Punishments In A House Of Darkness (Su): The Mask of a Knight shifts and evolves as the Knight grows in power, growing from simply a mask to a mark, and then again to what the Order calls a Punishment. Punishments are those who have walked the road of the Order almost to its completion, and with this penultimate change to their Mask the Knight is called to strike out at the Dark which once humbled them, to seek justice – or vengeance – for the terrible wounds inflicted upon them. And against those which they know serve the dark, there is little mercy.

A Knight of the Dim Star of seventh level chooses an alignment opposed to hers and gains the ability to Smite those of that alignment. Once per day for every three class levels she possesses, a Knight may enhance a single melee attack with this ability. The Knight adds her Evoker Stat Modifier to her attack roll, her class level to damage, and the attack bypasses any DR that her target might possess. If she accidently uses this ability on a creature not of her chosen alignment the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used for the day.

A Trail of Blood and Sorrow (Su): None know sorrow like the Knights of the Dim Star. They are broken beyond measure by the standards of other Lightwielders and they know it, forever barred from holding the Light to which they gave everything. Such sorrow is a terrible thing, and the hands of experienced Knights, it becomes another weapon in their arsenal. Rarely called upon, and remembered in fear by any who witness it and survive, the sorrow of a fallen Lightwielder is a power that none who are sane deliberately provoke.

Once per day, when confronted again by the same or a similar darkness as to that which broke them, a Knight of the Dim Star may choose to activate this ability as a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Dim, terrible light erupts around the Knight, burning away any bonds that might hold them and instantly summoning their Radiant Armaments. The Knight may immediately take a full round of actions, but may not take any action akin to retreat from or mercy to those who have so provoked them. Overriding this compulsion requires a successful Will save against a DC of [10 + class level + Evoker Stat Modifier]. In addition, the Knight temporarily gains the Frightful Presence feat (Draconomicon, p.105), the DC of which is based off of the Knight’s Evoker Stat Modifier. The compulsion and temporary feat gained through activating A Trail of Blood and Sorrow’s last until the end of the encounter.

No Safety in Night (Su): To the Dark and its servants, the night is safety, a place where the Light must tread either openly in glory, or with secrecy and trepidation. Not so the Knights of the Dim Star. Their sight pierces the dark without care for the need of Light, and their star-filled eyes bring a swift end to the illusions behind which those of the Dark hide themselves. Tremble in fear, wicked and accursed, for your veils of magic and disguise will not hide you. Tremble!

This ability enhances a Knight’s Fallen Star’s Sight, allowing them to tear away the illusions that – until now – only they could see through. By expending a minute of their per day use of that ability, a Knight may make a caster level check – treating their caster level as twice their class level – against any number of the illusions that she is aware of. Those effects against which she succeeds are dispelled as Greater Dispel Magic. Effects resulting from items are suppressed for one minute. Mundane disguises and deceptions are simply evaporated under the gaze of the star-eyed.

Judgement of the Star Eyed Sanction (Su/Ex): The justice of a Knight of the Dim Star is an often terrible thing to behold, but the most powerful of their Order are capable of handing down a punishment of such dreadful severity and power that it is said that on the day it was first invoked, the Gods of Law were shaken in their courts and palaces. In the most terrifying manifestation of all their powers, Grandmasters of the Order tear away the tapestry of lies that surround those of the Dark and force them to speak the truth of their actions. And once their crimes are laid bare to the world, they are banished beyond reach of those who would seek to redeem them. Cast into a world of shadow and darkness, they face an eternal punishment for their crimes at the hands of a shard of the Knight’s Mask.

But there is more to the Star Eyed sanction than ever meets the eye, for as it is the final weapon with which the Order of the Dim Star cleanses the world, it is also a power that can, if she so chooses, lead to a Knight’s rebirth.

At level ten, whilst under the effect of Fallen Star’s Sight, a Knight may target any foe within her line of sight with her Judgement. The pale half-light of their icon erupts around her, forming chains of bale power that reach out to bind her target in place. The target is allowed a single will save against the effects of the Judgement, against a DC of [15 + class level + Evoker Stat Modifier]. If they succeed, they manage to shrug off the Judgement in its opening stages, before the Knight digs too deeply into their mind. The trauma of being assaulted in such a fashion leaves marks however, inflicting 1d4 points of ability damage to each of the target’s mental ability scores. If the target fails their save, the Judgement proceeds to the Sanction.

The target is forced to verbally recant their crimes – although a Knight may end this recital at any time of her choosing. Upon ending their testimony, the target is banished into a locked Demiplane known only to those of the Order, and is left in that world of agonizing shadows at the mercy of a shard of the Knight’s own Mask. Divination spells to obtain information about the target or their location automatically fail, and the only way to enter the Demiplane is with the aid of a Knight capable of the Sanction.

After five uses of this ability, the true power of the Sanctions manifests before the Knight to grant her a single, incredible choice. For in each use of the Sanction, a Knight casts away a piece of her Mask until it is all but vanished, inflicting the due punishment upon those she has imprisoned. The final truth of the Order is whispered into her mind, and she is offered a final choice; to cast aside the Mask that she created for herself, or to become it.

A Knight who chooses to cast their Mask aside immediately looses all their levels in Knight, and may replace them with ten levels from any Tome of Radiance PrC that they qualify for. Their lost purity restored through their final rejection of what they became upon its loss, the Light welcomes them fully back into its embrace. The Mask remains however, now free from its mortal shell in the Demiplane of the Knights, and will not pause in its duty unless the redeemed Knight finds her way to that Demiplane and orders it to cease.

A Knight who chooses the latter option, to become the Mask that they have built, gains in full the terrible power of the Dim Star, becoming one with the pale echo of the pure Light that they once wielded. The Knight gains the ability to Plane Shift (Self only + 50 lbs. of non-living material) to the prison Demiplane to oversee the punishment of those she has Judged and Sanctioned there, and directly back to where she came from. Upon accepting her Mask, the Knight is actually automatically transferred to that Demiplane where she joins again with that Mask and – in doing so – gains the following benefits.

First, the Mask grants her a permanent Mind Blank effect, modified such that it grants the Knight a saving throw at a +4 modifier against any non-Epic effects that would pierce it, such as Metafaculty. Second, the Knight counts as a specific alignment only when it would be in her benefit to do so. Third, she is automatically aware of the visible alignments of those within her line of sight – limited as all Detect spells are in regards to interposed material. Fourth, she gains a bonus equal to half her class level to Disguise checks and the nature of her Mask means that any disguises she crafts for herself cannot be seen through by non-magical means. Finally, her Smite ability may affect any alignment and remains in effect against any target struck by it until that target is either dead or incapacitated – or until the Knight next rests and regains her uses of the ability.



Why, hello there...Batman! lol. :smalltongue:

In all honesty, that's the first thing that came to mind when I saw this prestige class come up.

Fluff is good.

Requirements to get in may be slightly...unique (i.e. difficult). But a player does have 10 levels to work with in order to fulfill all of the requirements. I'm not sure if that matters too much as I've only played Pathfinder and not 3.5.

Skills and chassis looks good. The larger lack of illuminations in comparison with your normal prestige class for this tome definitely fits the theme of the class.

The mask ability is definitely an interesting idea, and I think it fits.

Blade of a Brighter World...hmmm, where have I seen this before? :smalltongue: Naturally this is one of the class' stronger abilities. And I think it's probably appropriate.

Light to the Memory: this is an interesting concept. And I think it fits. In general I'd say that you're far more versed in what is likely to happen, but in my honest opinion? It seems as if 5 consecutive failures is not very likely to happen, especially if the knight happens to leave some of the evil compatriots behind. Or perhaps, even worse, if the knight has to flee from a battle because the enemy is too strong. Well, I suppose it's unrealistic for those kind of enemies not to know what's going on anyways. Just thought I'd throw out there that this ability seems slightly weak.

Mark of the Dim Star: aaaaahhh.....yeeeeaaaaah, about that, in case you didn't notice, since it is possible to be a knight and be evil aligned, this ability would actually allow you to detect good instead of evil. And if you're neutral, what happens then? Do you detect chaos or law? Or perchance if you're true neutral? I think a bit of clarification could help out here.

In the Dark, of the Light: ah, another non detection ability. Meh.

Falling Star's Sight: Seems both good for theme and mechanics.

Punishments in a House of Darkness: yep, very fitting...except that I completely agree with Lix Lorn on this: it's not strong enough to warrant not getting it per encounter. You also have to take into consideration that this class doesn't really get much else in the way of straight up battle offense or defense. Most of their abilities have to do with being detected. And yet what is perhaps more intrinsic to this class than others is that they are called to fight and kill. Three smites per encounter at level 19 is hardly too strong.

There is however one other thing that needs to be pointed out in this ability: Like mark of the Dim Star, this ability actually lets you smite good people! Now, have something to detect good people is one thing, but to smite them? Doesn't exactly fit the theme of the class, nor even the name of the ability. And again, what happens when your alignment is neutral?

A trail of blood and Sorrow: Fitting.

No Safety in the Night: again, fitting, though particularly late on when it is acquired. I'd say if you can find a way to beef it up any, the class could probably use it.

And then there's Judgment of the Star Eyed Sanction: This ability is quite interesting in that it actually lets you change your class after it has been used. However, that particular bit has me slightly frustrated. To change the character's class seems like a repentance from the methods of the Order, which is fine. But how easy is it to say that you've repented AFTER you have had your revenge? To truly show the repentence, I'd say change the ability such that after the evil person has finished recanting, the Knight may instead choose to immediately roll for Power of Frienship, and if the character does then they get to change classes regardless of whether or not the roll was successful. If the character goes through with the judgment then they automatically become the mask.

There's another thing that bothers me about the changing of classes. Given how prestige classes are almost like getting a master's degree (or PHD as it may be) in some special niche of a larger subject, it doesn't really make sense that a character who may have spent years working in the darkness suddenly knows a special niche of the light (aka, get's to put levels in a prestige class). I think it would make far more (thematic) sense for the character to have to take ten levels of whatever base class they were originally part of. This also (thematically) shows the person returning to the light that they knew. Given how few games actually make it to level twenty (at least on these boards from what I've heard), I'd say that forcing a character to take their original base class is probably not too much of a tax on them. Unless the group is planning on going into epic levels, the player is probably not going to have much time left with the character before starting a new game.

All in all, an interesting class, though I do have to say that the class doesn't really seem to fit well into a group setting. I suppose that'd have to be playtested to be confirmed, but yeah, overall not too shabby.

sreservoir
2013-08-09, 11:51 AM
skill points are a ... very unusual thing to base a prerequisite on. you might possibly want to consider just reducing that to 6 ranks in four of them, so that it's still a 10th level entry limited by evoker level, and the skills are attainable at 9 cross-class.

Falcon777
2013-08-09, 03:53 PM
I was re-reading through the Order of the Stick comic today and I read how outsiders can't be resurrected. If that is so, how does tiers nine and ten of Avatar of light (where you would normally come back to life after dying as long as you don't have mythic damage equal to half your max hp (tier 9) or equal to your max hp (tier 10)) work with sunlight/moonlight/starlight apotheosis?

Dragonus45
2013-08-09, 04:07 PM
I was re-reading through the Order of the Stick comic today and I read how outsiders can't be resurrected. If that is so, how does tiers nine and ten of Avatar of light (where you would normally come back to life after dying as long as you don't have mythic damage equal to half your max hp (tier 9) or equal to your max hp (tier 10)) work with sunlight/moonlight/starlight apotheosis?

I believe they make you native outsiders. I think natives can be resurrected.

Falcon777
2013-08-09, 04:34 PM
Ah, I see. Cool stuff.

Snowfire
2013-08-09, 05:11 PM
I believe they make you native outsiders. I think natives can be resurrected.

This is correct. Native outsiders may be resurrected be spells like raise dead.

Also, I will hopefully have answers to stuff regarding Knight of the Dim Star up tomorrow. I've got it all written, but no internet access but for my phone. Which...really isn't what I want to write it all with.

Draken
2013-08-09, 06:28 PM
I was re-reading through the Order of the Stick comic today and I read how outsiders can't be resurrected. If that is so, how does tiers nine and ten of Avatar of light (where you would normally come back to life after dying as long as you don't have mythic damage equal to half your max hp (tier 9) or equal to your max hp (tier 10)) work with sunlight/moonlight/starlight apotheosis?

Get your facts straight. Raise Dead, Reincarnate and Resurrection can't bring outsiders back to life. This is a limitation of these spells more than anything.

Revive Outsider, True Resurrection, Miracle, and Wish can all bring outsiders back to life. One of these is even NOT a 9th level spell!

------

Edit: Idea that came to me just a moment ago in a chat with Sel. Tongue in cheek optional.

Plot Device [Lightforge]
The tool of the evoker is no mere weapon to punish the wicked, it is an instrument of wonder and magic.
Prerequisite: Radiant Armaments class feature, Evoker level 12, Spellcraft 6 ranks.
Benefit: Once per day, the evoker may cast Limited Wish at no experience cost.

The evoker can invest motes into this feat, gaining one additional daily use of it for every six motes invested. Once that daily use is expended, the next use can only be made available by investing the proper number of motes into the feat (six, twelve, eighteen, etc.), no matter how many times the motes are invested into this feat, each use is only available once per day.

By investing twenty motes into this feat, an evoker who has yet to use any of her limited wishes for the day can cast a Wish instead, although this incurs an experience cost as normal. Casting this Wish consumes four daily uses of the Limited Wish made available by this feat.

The evoker's device acts as a focus for the spells, using this feat is considered a supernatural ability, and as such casting the spells does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

vasharanpaladin
2013-08-10, 01:33 AM
Get your facts straight. Raise Dead, Reincarnate and Resurrection can't bring outsiders back to life. This is a limitation of these spells more than anything.


Specific overrides general. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#nativeSubtype) Please report to the infirmary for the reversal of your recto-cranial inversion.

Snowfire
2013-08-10, 07:23 AM
Light to the Memory: this is an interesting concept. And I think it fits. In general I'd say that you're far more versed in what is likely to happen, but in my honest opinion? It seems as if 5 consecutive failures is not very likely to happen, especially if the knight happens to leave some of the evil compatriots behind. Or perhaps, even worse, if the knight has to flee from a battle because the enemy is too strong. Well, I suppose it's unrealistic for those kind of enemies not to know what's going on anyways. Just thought I'd throw out there that this ability seems slightly weak.

Please remember that the five consecutive failures part of this feature is the one that turns that particular event permanently memory proof for that character. Perhaps more important, the effect triggers a save whenever the event is discussed and if the character fails their save, they just remmeber the event with the Knight being some nameless and unknown hero/villain/what-have-you.

The feature is designed as more of a means to prevent tracking than a means to make their enemies forget about them.


Mark of the Dim Star: aaaaahhh.....yeeeeaaaaah, about that, in case you didn't notice, since it is possible to be a knight and be evil aligned, this ability would actually allow you to detect good instead of evil. And if you're neutral, what happens then? Do you detect chaos or law? Or perchance if you're true neutral? I think a bit of clarification could help out here.

And I am going to point out here, that I did this deliberately. If you've become Evil-aligned at this point, then it's totally reasonable for you to choose Good as your alignment to Detect instead of Law of Chaos (whichever one you can). PLease, please note that what has been shown above in regards to this being a class that will fully tolerate evil members in their ranks - so long as they hold to the Order's tenants. So LE and NE are perfectly acceptable - CE being maybe a bit too much of a stretch.

Regarding neutral characters, you choose the opposed alignment to your. So if you're, say, Neutral Good, you have to choose Evil.


Punishments in a House of Darkness: yep, very fitting...except that I completely agree with Lix Lorn on this: it's not strong enough to warrant not getting it per encounter. You also have to take into consideration that this class doesn't really get much else in the way of straight up battle offense or defense. Most of their abilities have to do with being detected. And yet what is perhaps more intrinsic to this class than others is that they are called to fight and kill. Three smites per encounter at level 19 is hardly too strong.

There is however one other thing that needs to be pointed out in this ability: Like mark of the Dim Star, this ability actually lets you smite good people! Now, have something to detect good people is one thing, but to smite them? Doesn't exactly fit the theme of the class, nor even the name of the ability. And again, what happens when your alignment is neutral?

I'm open to suggestions in regards to strengthening this, but I'm rather opposed to giving this class better Smiting use than either the PF or 3.5 Paladin. See above for notes on alignment stuff.


No Safety in the Night: again, fitting, though particularly late on when it is acquired. I'd say if you can find a way to beef it up any, the class could probably use it.

I'm thinking about giving innate Darkvision similar to what Devils get - in that it can see through Supernatural Darkness. Any other suggestions would be welcome :smallsmile:


And then there's Judgment of the Star Eyed Sanction: This ability is quite interesting in that it actually lets you change your class after it has been used. However, that particular bit has me slightly frustrated. To change the character's class seems like a repentance from the methods of the Order, which is fine. But how easy is it to say that you've repented AFTER you have had your revenge? To truly show the repentence, I'd say change the ability such that after the evil person has finished recanting, the Knight may instead choose to immediately roll for Power of Frienship, and if the character does then they get to change classes regardless of whether or not the roll was successful. If the character goes through with the judgment then they automatically become the mask.

And here we run into misunderstanding of the class fluff. See, the thing about the method you've proposed requires that the Knight actually be aware of two things. First, even the possibility of redemption for them after what the Knight has done. Second, and much more importantly, an awareness of the Mask as a separate entity that the Knight can separate herself from. Until a Knight uses the Sanction enough times to remove the vast majority of their Mask from their mind, they aren't. To a rather large degree, the Mask is effectively a split personality from the Knight, formed initially out of the pain that had been inflicted upon them. It's a case of being unaware of even the possibility of the choice you've outlined.


There's another thing that bothers me about the changing of classes. Given how prestige classes are almost like getting a master's degree (or PHD as it may be) in some special niche of a larger subject, it doesn't really make sense that a character who may have spent years working in the darkness suddenly knows a special niche of the light (aka, get's to put levels in a prestige class). I think it would make far more (thematic) sense for the character to have to take ten levels of whatever base class they were originally part of. This also (thematically) shows the person returning to the light that they knew. Given how few games actually make it to level twenty (at least on these boards from what I've heard), I'd say that forcing a character to take their original base class is probably not too much of a tax on them. Unless the group is planning on going into epic levels, the player is probably not going to have much time left with the character before starting a new game.

In all honesty, I'm probably not going to be things. I don't have the right words on hand to explain why, but I know I've got them somewhere - and I'll get back to you.

Hopefully that answers everything.

Oh, and I really need to update Avatars of Light for the new Illumination Components.

NineThePuma
2013-08-10, 09:14 AM
I'm open to suggestions in regards to strengthening this, but I'm rather opposed to giving this class better Smiting use than either the PF or 3.5 Paladin. See above for notes on alignment stuff.

While admirable the problem with this is that the paladin's ability to smite sucks.

3.5's paladin gets a small boost to damage out put on a single attack. A level 20 paladin who has put everything into maxing out Charisma receives a +13 to attack bonus and an extra 20 damage five times per day, and can waste one of those uses by hitting something that isn't evil or missing.

A PF Paladin's smite functions more like a 4e striker's mark, giving him a ton of damage output, theoretically, against a single target. They essentially gain the 3.5 paladin's smite against a target until that target dies or the paladin rests, as well as an additional defense boost. And he can do that more times per day.

Pathfinder's designers thought that the 3.5 smite was so weak that they let their paladin have every attack against a given target be a smite. What does that say about the paladin? And by extension, your class's smite?

It isn't a game changer. It isn't an ability that you use and you've suddenly got a massive advantage. At best it should be an innate effect: when striking an opponent of the opposite alignment, you gain a boost in attack bonus and damage equal to these things. At worst, it should be an ability per encounter.

If you really want it to be a daily, it should be more akin to the Barbarian's Rage than the Paladin's Smite.

Falcon777
2013-08-10, 02:09 PM
Please remember that the five consecutive failures part of this feature is the one that turns that particular event permanently memory proof for that character. Perhaps more important, the effect triggers a save whenever the event is discussed and if the character fails their save, they just remmeber the event with the Knight being some nameless and unknown hero/villain/what-have-you.

The feature is designed as more of a means to prevent tracking than a means to make their enemies forget about them.

Oh, I understood that it was designed to help keep their anonymity, I just didn't think it would actually work out very well.


And I am going to point out here, that I did this deliberately. If you've become Evil-aligned at this point, then it's totally reasonable for you to choose Good as your alignment to Detect instead of Law of Chaos (whichever one you can). PLease, please note that what has been shown above in regards to this being a class that will fully tolerate evil members in their ranks - so long as they hold to the Order's tenants. So LE and NE are perfectly acceptable - CE being maybe a bit too much of a stretch.

Regarding neutral characters, you choose the opposed alignment to your. So if you're, say, Neutral Good, you have to choose Evil.

Emphasis mine. In case you've forgotten, this class is designed to work in the dark against the dark. Not against the light. It's one thing for someone to disagree with the methods of a different organization (in this case members of the dim star disagreeing with those still in the light). However, it's entirely a different thing for you to have a supernatural feature that allows you to better fight against those that are in the light (smite good). That simply doesn't make any sense. Evil characters in the order can only stay in the order if they are fighting against the dark, not against the light. As it stands now, if someone that was evil became a knight of the dim star, they could actually consistently use their smiting ability against good people doing good things, just because the knight is evil. And that, in my opinion, seems to be directly contradictory to the fluff of the class. If you think I'm off on this, here's a re-quote of the fluff at the beginning of the class, emphasis added is mine.


None chooses the Order of the Dim Star. It is a burden brought upon the young and innocent, taking both away in exchange for great expertise and determination in the war against the darkness. These valiant warriors are compelled to make certain that no other need suffer through their brand of enlightenment.

Once the Knight was lost amongst the darkness, surrounded by evil, depravity and vice so intense that it robbed them of their sacred innocence, the pure radiance that was once theirs sullied. However where others might have despaired or surrendered to what they saw as defeat, these stubborn women refused to bend knee. They embraced the truth of the world, that sometimes bad things must happen to bad people in order for good people to be left alone. Ignorance is a privilege, that is their secret creed.

I don't particularly mind if evil characters are fighting evil characters to punish evil deeds. But in a class that is designed to fight darkness and evil...well, it doesn't make sense to me for them to be better at fighting good people.



I'm thinking about giving innate Darkvision similar to what Devils get - in that it can see through Supernatural Darkness. Any other suggestions would be welcome :smallsmile:

Innate darkvision would definitely work.



And here we run into misunderstanding of the class fluff. See, the thing about the method you've proposed requires that the Knight actually be aware of two things. First, even the possibility of redemption for them after what the Knight has done. Second, and much more importantly, an awareness of the Mask as a separate entity that the Knight can separate herself from. Until a Knight uses the Sanction enough times to remove the vast majority of their Mask from their mind, they aren't. To a rather large degree, the Mask is effectively a split personality from the Knight, formed initially out of the pain that had been inflicted upon them. It's a case of being unaware of even the possibility of the choice you've outlined.

It could be possible that the person cannot even remember what it was like back when they were in the light. But for the person to not even be able to recognize the option of redemption for themselves and (in my opinion) their quarry until the mask is (almost) gone almost makes it seem like anything and everything the knight may have done that could (under any circumstances) be considered evil would be not their fault but the fault of the mask. That's a moral framework that I disagree with (choices and actions made not being attributed to the person doing them). Ultimately it's mostly a fluff thing (since you have to be level 20 to do this in the first place), but even at the thematic level and not the mechanic level if there is something I disagree with I'm not going to say "Hey, looks ok there!", if you see what I mean.


In all honesty, I'm probably not going to be things. I don't have the right words on hand to explain why, but I know I've got them somewhere - and I'll get back to you.

Hopefully that answers everything.

Oh, and I really need to update Avatars of Light for the new Illumination Components.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying there at the top, but I figure you'll get back around to answer it.

Overall I think the class is interesting and fills a particular niche, which of course is what prestige classes are there for. There's just a few things I disagree with about it is all. :smallwink:

Falcon777
2013-08-11, 08:57 AM
I've got a quick question about mythic illuminations: can complex formula be mythic?

Snowfire
2013-08-11, 09:43 AM
I've got a quick question about mythic illuminations: can complex formula be mythic?

Hmm. See, I thought I addressed this, but apparently I didn't. So I will edit on being back in front of my computer and for now state that no, you may not make your complex formula (or Sunlight Apotheosis) Illumination Mythic until you are teir 9.

Snowfire
2013-08-11, 03:26 PM
And the recruitment thread for the game I promised is online.

Apply at your own risk. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=297414)

Qwertystop
2013-08-13, 12:00 PM
Am I missing something, or are Enhanced Armaments effects all absent?

jamieth
2013-08-13, 12:17 PM
They are. This section is currently being rewritten; Enchanced Armaments are likely to be removed... or at least significantly changed.

Dragonus45
2013-08-13, 01:51 PM
They are. This section is currently being rewritten; Enchanced Armaments are likely to be removed... or at least significantly changed.

Yea, i cant wait to see what the new stuff looks like.

jamieth
2013-08-14, 02:25 AM
While making a character for Snowfire's game, I thought of a new weapon archetype:

{table=head]Weapon | Damage (S) | Damage (M) | Critical | Range Increment | Weight | Type

Kicking |
1d6 |
1d8 |
20/x2 |
- |
3 lbs. |
Special*
[/table]

Kicking: A kicking device is usually fixed to the boots of the wearer's Costume; attacks with a Kicking Device are delivered with one's legs, rather than arms. While wielding a Kicking device, both your arms are considered free. Though you can hold another weapon in your arms, you can't combine attacks with a Kicking device and the weaponsd you hold in your hands in the same round.

Yeah, I know, it is rather silly :-)

Lix Lorn
2013-08-14, 05:48 PM
You can already represent that using Stance. Unarmed strikes can be kicks. :)

Nevershutup
2013-08-14, 07:10 PM
I would just like to say, that is my favorite homebrew ever, and I can't wait to try it out. Though I'm still trying to get over the fact that every character is called a magical girl...

NineThePuma
2013-08-14, 07:34 PM
there are 27 usages of the term "Magical Girl" in the front page's rule text, mostly outside of the classes themselves. I'm sure if we ask very nicely we can get all instances of "magical girl" that aren't the introduction or flavor to be changed to "Evoker"

Dragonus45
2013-08-14, 09:44 PM
I would just like to say, that is my favorite homebrew ever, and I can't wait to try it out. Though I'm still trying to get over the fact that every character is called a magical girl...

Also just remember a 3.5 class is like a boat, it is always a she.

Falcon777
2013-08-14, 09:51 PM
So, I was re-reading the base classes in this thread, and I noticed something about the starlight/moonlight/sunlight apotheosis that I don't understand, specifically about the character becoming an augmented subtype. And when I looked it up on the d20 srd, it didn't really explain what that meant. So...does anyone know what that means?

Forrestfire
2013-08-14, 09:52 PM
It means that they changed types from a previous type. It's just there as a reminder in stat blocks.

Qwertystop
2013-08-14, 10:06 PM
It means that they changed types from a previous type. It's just there as a reminder in stat blocks.

Also, some of the stuff the old type gave stays. It's listed under Subtypes, I think.

Falcon777
2013-08-14, 10:14 PM
Which means.............what exactly? :smallconfused:

Draken
2013-08-14, 10:34 PM
Which means.............what exactly? :smallconfused:

Outsider (Augmented Humanoid) is a viable target for Enlarge Person, for instance.

Falcon777
2013-08-14, 10:51 PM
Ok, so the person can still be affected by the enlarge person spell. What I'm trying to figure out is what being augmented means. Does the character get more ability points? Better saves? Better fluff? The d20 srd isn't clear.

NineThePuma
2013-08-14, 11:04 PM
An Outsider (Augmented Humanoid) is a Humanoid that is now an Outsider. They receive benefits of being a humanoid where beneficial (and where detrimental in a few specific cases)

The augmented subtype, by itself, does nothing.

Durazno
2013-08-15, 01:29 AM
Their original type, humanoid, was augmented by the addition of outsider.

Selinia
2013-08-15, 02:57 AM
Sorry, I'm trying. :smallsigh:

Really hoping to have something concrete up tomorrow - namely, the rest of the Enhanced Armament overhaul update - replacing the EA feature in the Champion with something else, removing other references to Enhanced Armaments, adding a few costume elements, renaming costume elements to Imbuements, rebalancing a few existing imbuements, and doing some basic clarifications on how Imbuements work.

That said, there is a -ton- of stuff you guys have produced for me to review and get up on the front page, because you're awesome like that. I am going to focus on reviewing the posts with actual content in them, because if I answered every question on the last four or so pages, I just wouldn't have time to get any homebrewing dome myself. So if you have a standing query that nobody has answered yet, please ask it again here. Just looking at how much I need to sift through is daunting, and has made it hard to approach this in my free time. By re-consolidating what I need to look at, and separating it out from the stuff that has been resolved, you will be taking a big load off my shoulders, and helping me catch up as fast as possible.

Thanks in advance.

Snowfire
2013-08-15, 04:49 AM
Looking through the pages, I come up with these as the most notable things to respond to:

There is critique from Amber Vael and sreservoir.

Vael's is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15556115&postcount=423), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15569429&postcount=430) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15648063&postcount=461).

sreservoir's is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15680984&postcount=470)

Then there's Lix's Shining Princess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15616708&postcount=438) PrC.

caledscratcher's Interceptor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15752741&postcount=488) Base Class.

And my Bringer of Twilight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15766423&postcount=524) and Knight of the Dim Star (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15785143&postcount=577) PrCs.

Oh, and a question from me. Is there any reason why Child of Light (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14715007&postcount=249) and Light's Artist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14715170&postcount=250) never made it onto the PrC list on the front page?

Note, there have been changes made to both of them since they were originally posted.

And that's all the major stuff as far as I can tell. If I missed anything from people, if they would pm me I can just add it to the list here? Might make it a bit easier for Selinia.

Falcon777
2013-08-15, 12:02 PM
You forgot about the mythic rule set you made for pathfinder, Snowfire.

caledscratcher
2013-08-15, 12:26 PM
sreservoir's Interceptor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15752741&postcount=488) Base Class.

(Emphasis mine) Hm? I don't recall sreservoir posting a base class... uvu

Hartwig
2013-08-15, 12:55 PM
Also, it does appear that I and not a few other people, 2 on this page, would appreciate changing most instances of the phrase Magical Girl to Lightwielder or something similar.

Please?

Edit: Also, form Pearl doesn't specify the time it takes to evoke from the pearl.

Snowfire
2013-08-15, 12:56 PM
(Emphasis mine) Hm? I don't recall sreservoir posting a base class... uvu

*facepalms*

And this is why I shouldn't do this when I have yet to properly wake up. Sincere apologies, it is now fixed.

AmberVael
2013-08-15, 01:02 PM
Just for the record, I'm completely fine with frequent use of the phrase 'magical girl' in homebrew that has the default fluff of magical girls. :smalltongue:

Lix Lorn
2013-08-15, 01:06 PM
Also, it does appear that I and not a few other people, 2 on this page, would appreciate changing most instances of the phrase Magical Girl to Lightwielder or something similar.

Please?


Just for the record, I'm completely fine with frequent use of the phrase 'magical girl' in homebrew that has the default fluff of magical girls. :smalltongue:
This. I'd prefer it stay the same.

Hartwig
2013-08-15, 01:32 PM
Then an adaptations paragraph so DMs don't disallow it because they think it sounds corny?

Personally, I love most of the flavor and don't see why it needs feminine connotation.

vasharanpaladin
2013-08-15, 01:51 PM
Then an adaptations paragraph so DMs don't disallow it because they think it sounds corny?

Personally, I love most of the flavor and don't see why it needs feminine connotation.

Because it's HOMEBREW and thus doesn't require being setting-neutral, so why the hell SHOULDN'T we just call it what it is?

It's a magical girl. No matter how you try to deny it or how many alternate names you use for it, it's a fething magical girl.

If your DM wouldn't allow it as written he's not likely to allow it with MINOR COSMETIC CHANGES anyway, so don't bother beating around the bush. Just keep it simple.

They're magical girls, and that's all there is to it. :smallmad:

NineThePuma
2013-08-15, 02:02 PM
The female flavor originated when the class was called The Magical Girl.

The flavor is completely fine, and the mechanics are solid, but there are, from a design standpoint, random and arbitrary uses of the term "Magical Girls" in rules text. The uses of the term should be replaced with "Evoker", which is the term used by most of the rules text to refer to the collection of classes. We've had people complain about the implication that males can't be Evokers, so lets just remove the thing causing those implications. It's right there in the opening that this class was inspired by Magical Girls, but if it's actively causing problems for people who want to play this class, shouldn't the troublesome aspects be fixed?

vasharanpaladin
2013-08-15, 02:19 PM
Introduce them to Nanoha and have done with it.

By the logic they're using, the character's gender is locked into whichever pronoun is used in the class description. FAIL.

NineThePuma
2013-08-15, 02:56 PM
There are stupid people in this world. Some will overlook pronouns, given the fact that pronouns are interchanged fairly regularly in RAW. Others will see the term "Magical girl" and make the assumption that no male characters can take the class.


As a Rules question for Selinia:

Can Non-Magical Girls take Soulbond feats?

Lix Lorn
2013-08-15, 03:50 PM
Because it's HOMEBREW and thus doesn't require being setting-neutral, so why the hell SHOULDN'T we just call it what it is?

It's a magical girl. No matter how you try to deny it or how many alternate names you use for it, it's a fething magical girl.

If your DM wouldn't allow it as written he's not likely to allow it with MINOR COSMETIC CHANGES anyway, so don't bother beating around the bush. Just keep it simple.

They're magical girls, and that's all there is to it. :smallmad:
I agree entirely with this post. Especially the warhammer swear word.

Falcon777
2013-08-15, 05:38 PM
While I am not particularly against the idea of magical girls, the term isn't really appealing to guys in general. Also, the mechanics of the ToR don't really have anything to do with the female gender. On the other hand, fans of the kinds of shows that this is based off of are of a very strong opinion that it should not be changed and that anyone who thinks it should be changed are idiots.

@ Selinia: So basically it boils down to two things: the strong emotions the long term fans have of the term magical girl, and the lack of interest some new people have of it. The fans say that the fluff is absolutely essential to the Tome while some new people (not all) say that it is holding back people from being interested. So whether or not you change it probably ought to take into consideration the ramifications of choosing either option.

My opinion is that the only detraction the term magical girl has is that it is lowering the amount of traffic this thread would otherwise see. I can certainly work with how it is now as there isn't any actual requirement for a character made from the tome to be female or have female characteristics. So basically I'd call myself a moderate in consideration of the argument. Personally, I'm more interested in hearing your opinion (Selinia) than seeing it stay the same or get changed.

AmberVael
2013-08-15, 06:00 PM
Then an adaptations paragraph so DMs don't disallow it because they think it sounds corny?

While I would say those DMs need to be more open minded, I think a well implemented Adaptations "sidebar" could be a nice addition. I'm always for refluffing anything and everything (I've interpreted Personas as sort of magical martial arts forms for my current character, for example), and I while I am completely fine with magical girls, I could see them having thematic issues in a number of games. Love, justice, and friendship beams don't fit into every world after all. :smalltongue:


While I am not particularly against the idea of magical girls, the term isn't really appealing to guys in general. Also, the mechanics of the ToR don't really have anything to do with the female gender. On the other hand, fans of the kinds of shows that this is based off of are of a very strong opinion that it should not be changed and that anyone who thinks it should be changed are idiots.

@ Selinia: So basically it boils down to two things: the strong emotions the long term fans have of the term magical girl, and the lack of interest some new people have of it. The fans say that the fluff is absolutely essential to the Tome while some new people (not all) say that it is holding back people from being interested. So whether or not you change it probably ought to take into consideration the ramifications of choosing either option.

My opinion is that the only detraction the term magical girl has is that it is lowering the amount of traffic this thread would otherwise see. I can certainly work with how it is now as there isn't any actual requirement for a character made from the tome to be female or have female characteristics. So basically I'd call myself a moderate in consideration of the argument. Personally, I'm more interested in hearing your opinion (Selinia) than seeing it stay the same or get changed.

:smallannoyed:
I take issue with the words you're putting in my mouth. It is my personal view that fluff is rarely essential to mechanical work, and that heavy reinterpretation and adaptation can often be just as creative and interesting- and sometimes even more creative and interesting- than simply trying to make something new.

However, this does not mean I want things to be created in a thematic void, or to render themselves generic. Selinia intended to make something that would accurately reflect magical girls. And then did. And I think that unique flavor and style, combined with the good mechanics, are what have attracted many people to this work.

My objection is not that I think the fluff is absolutely necessary to these classes. The opposite, in fact. My objection is that it hardly needs to be rendered more generic in order to be changed or used in a completely different way as the user desires.

The only point raised against the terminology so far that I am inclined to agree with is the first one raised by NineThePuma: That is, that when a mechanical term is needed to refer to all three classes, it should probably be Evoker, simply because that is the term that has been used across the board, and consistency in mechanical terminology really makes things easier.

Draken
2013-08-15, 06:07 PM
Reading the first few posts again, I noticed that the most clustered instances of Magical Girl actually refer to the old thread in the introduction.

Now, granted, the Illuminations entrance needs a pass due to terminology issues, but there are barely any mentions of magical girl referring to the three classes themselves.

I must also inform that I suggested that Selinia disregard this entire line of argumentation because it is pointless in the extreme. Nobody ever argued that the Warlock needs to be called "Witch" sometimes, to make it more fair to the opposite gender.

----

Also, because someone asked before, Craft Soulbond has no prerequisites, it can be taken by anyone regardless of class.

AmberVael
2013-08-15, 06:12 PM
I must also inform that I suggested that Selinia disregard this entire line of argumentation because it is pointless in the extreme. Nobody ever argued that the Warlock needs to be called "Witch" sometimes, to make it more fair to the opposite gender.

I approve of this recommendation.

vasharanpaladin
2013-08-15, 06:13 PM
While I am not particularly against the idea of magical girls, the term isn't really appealing to guys in general. Also, the mechanics of the ToR don't really have anything to do with the female gender. On the other hand, fans of the kinds of shows that this is based off of are of a very strong opinion that it should not be changed and that anyone who thinks it should be changed are idiots.

I'd like to preface my next reply by pointing out that the first to say "idiot" is the idiot. :smallannoyed:

I'm vehement about not changing the fluff because there is no reason to. The thread title contains such cheesy crap as "power of love and justice." Anyone who's going to be turned off this stuff by reference to magical girls is already biased against it. And a DM who'd be turned off it by the same reason wasn't going to let you use it to begin with.

And now, I'd like to finish this reply by pointing out I don't particularly care for the "magical girl" genre at all, at least in the classical sense. I like Nanoha. That's about it.

Dragonus45
2013-08-15, 06:25 PM
Gals, guys, i would just like to point out that this is a thread dedicated to a class that represents defeat of evil through light, friendship, the power of determination, friendship, and mecha class beams fired from magical wands, of friendship. Perhaps keeping that in mind we could keep our tone a little friendlier with each other. Also as the person who feels like they sort of accidentally started this whole conversation a few pages back asking about how to get my play group to check out the class i would point out that nothing can separate the full of this class from it's direct inspiration. I wouldn't want it any other way. The problem is with other people not realizing that Nanoha My Little Pony Magical Girl shows are legitimately good in there own right and not always solely for young children.

Qwertystop
2013-08-15, 06:25 PM
Reading the first few posts again, I noticed that the most clustered instances of Magical Girl actually refer to the old thread in the introduction.

Now, granted, the Illuminations entrance needs a pass due to terminology issues, but there are barely any mentions of magical girl referring to the three classes themselves.

I must also inform that I suggested that Selinia disregard this entire line of argumentation because it is pointless in the extreme. Nobody ever argued that the Warlock needs to be called "Witch" sometimes, to make it more fair to the opposite gender.

Not taking sides, but I opened all the spoilers and did Ctrl+F for "magical girl" no quotes, and it shows up basically everywhere other than the classes - all over the place in Illuminations, and a large smattering through Devices, Costumes, and some of the feats.

Falcon777
2013-08-15, 07:04 PM
:smallamused:

Why don't I play a little bit of devil's advocate here. Those for the term staying seem to see me as being against it, when in fact I simply have a(n unprovable) concern that it may be hindering traffic. So I'll put forth a proper argument against the term being changed:

The problem with the argument that there may be less traffic for the thread because of the term "Magical Girl" is that people are lazy.

If there is something that people do not like about that term, very few people have stated as such. Dragonus pointed out that his main play group didn't like the Tome because of, and I'm paraphrasing here, the fact of how it is based upon girly shows. The truth of the matter is that said dm has not actually come onto this thread and stated such a thing. Does that make Dragonus a liar? Certainly not. But it doesn't provide proof of his statement either. And the truth of the matter is that given that this is homebrew, if someone doesn't like the fluff of the thread, they are far more likely to simply leave than they are to continue to read until the end and subsequently argue that the fluff of the thread ought to change. Many people love to argue about things, but as of yet I'm the only one to have written anything extensive about the possibility of there being less traffic due to the fluff of the Tome. Is it possible that the fluff is hindering the thread? Yes, it is. Can that possibility be proven? Not without a lot of people coming onto the thread and stating that they do not like the term (or the rest of the fluff). And if there are such people, they are not here voicing their opinions. Ergo there is no proof to the argument that the fluff of the tome is hindering traffic.

Since there is no proof as of yet that the fluff of the Tome is hindering traffic, it ought to stay the same.

There you go. :smallamused:

Qwertystop
2013-08-15, 07:34 PM
Was that intended as a parody of a fallacy? Correct me if I'm misreading, but it seems like you're saying that because people haven't actually said "I'm not reading this because it says Magical Girls," we can assume that there would be no increase in readers from removing the phrase.

The problem with this is that it's very rare to see people show up solely to say they're not reading it.

The way to test it would be to remove the phrases and see if there's a notable increase in new posters.

The problem with that is that new posters are rare in just about any topic - new people don't join the big ones very often most of the time anyway.

Dragonus45
2013-08-15, 07:40 PM
Also me and my group are a bit of a bad statistic to go with since they have a slight dislike of homebrew in general. Only me and one other guy tend to put a lot of effort in to finding homebrew we like and incorporating it into things.

Falcon777
2013-08-15, 08:09 PM
Was that intended as a parody of a fallacy? Correct me if I'm misreading, but it seems like you're saying that because people haven't actually said "I'm not reading this because it says Magical Girls," we can assume that there would be no increase in readers from removing the phrase.

On the contrary, the argument I put forth was not that we could make assumptions, but rather that there isn't proof of the very concern that I have waxed on about (namely that there MAY be less traffic). The attitudes that can be inferred from those that are for the term staying the same are at the very least unfriendly towards me bringing this idea up. I did not like the fact that they could not (mostly because of the medium I'm working with, aka, text) see that I am not actually antagonistic towards their stance on the argument. I also didn't like the fact that they stated their wasn't any point to the argument and that there was no point to changing the term rather than pointing out THE largest problem to my concern. As such, I decided to show that my concern (namely the other side of the argument) had no proof to back it up.


The way to test it would be to remove the phrases and see if there's a notable increase in new posters.

The problem with that is that new posters are rare in just about any topic - new people don't join the big ones very often most of the time anyway.

Aye, that is another way of saying the main point of the argument I just put up: you would, at the very least, have a hard time of proving that there is less traffic to this thread because of the fluff. At most you would not be able to find proof.



Essentially I'm showing that while I have some concern for the amount of traffic that this thread is getting because of how cool this homebrew is, that is all it is: just concern. I am not against the term itself, nor am I against the inspiration for this work of art. Rather, I saw someone make a post showing a particular concern that had been bouncing around in my head for 17 pages and I subsequently came to the conclusion that I may have been right. As such, I made a suggestion. When people reacted negatively to that suggestion, I attempted to clarify my position. The fact that people continued to react negatively to it was enough for me to drop the suggestion. Later, someone else brought it back up, and as I stated before, I was more interested in what Selinia had to say than the actual argument. When people reacted negatively to what I had to say AGAIN, I decided to play devil's advocate in the hopes that people would drop the argument and accusations and just leave it how it is.







In other news, is it just me, or does the Empath class seem a little bit.....empty? Sure, they can do a lot with all of those fancy personas, but that makes the class a bit...jumpy, doesn't it? What I mean is, a person playing an empath gets large jumps in power whenever they acquire a new set of personas they can use. While it would make the class stronger (which has been a concern for some), it might make leveling up slightly smoother if there were things the class gained other than illuminations in the levels between when it gains new personas. What do you all think?

Draken
2013-08-15, 08:20 PM
Tome of Radiance is one of the most viewed threads in homebrew, you know.

NineThePuma
2013-08-15, 08:54 PM
The female flavor originated when the class was called The Magical Girl.

The flavor is completely fine, and the mechanics are solid, but there are, from a design standpoint, random and arbitrary uses of the term "Magical Girls" in rules text. The uses of the term should be replaced with "Evoker", which is the term used by most of the rules text to refer to the collection of classes. We've had people complain about the implication that males can't be Evokers, so lets just remove the thing causing those implications. It's right there in the opening that this class was inspired by Magical Girls, but if it's actively causing problems for people who want to play this class, shouldn't the troublesome aspects be fixed?

I have concerns about the usage of the term "magical girls" in rules text, given the fact that an Evoker is defined and a "magical girl" is not in said rules text. The fact that Evoker is gender neutral is a perk if we have someone turn up and be confused as to whether male magical girls could exist, which I believe we have had.

Dragonus45
2013-08-16, 12:28 AM
On a side note, i've been thinking of doing a Ponyfinder specific prestige class. Anyone want to weigh in on the concept, i have a few ideas but i would like to hear what anyone else thinks.

Hartwig
2013-08-16, 02:10 AM
Glad to hear it! The Tome of Radiance is... actually more complex in some ways, but its complexity is highly granular. Rather than attempt to create subclasses and archetypes for every possible magic girl, my goal here is to break the very idea of a magical girl down into components that can be assembled any way the player wishes.

First of all, it's not a big deal, so I'll stop after this post.

Changing Magical Girl to a less meaningful term would still allow that sort of character to be made and would expand the class to all kinds of light-based characters. Imagine if Arcane Magic were called Dragon-blooded magic. It might be truer to the inspiration (read Sorcerer's description), but would narrow the flavor so only 1 kind of flavor would make sense for any character. I'd much prefer to be able to take the componants of this class and its foundation, namely, illuminations, and piece them together into a character not bound by the constraints and not carrying the connotations of a genre I know nothing about, however good it may be. I'd like this class to stray as far away from the monk/Paladin problem as possible. An adaptations paragraph would probably be good enough.

Lastly, what defines these classes? Is it not the light-based powers? And is 'Magical Girl' broad enough to encompass every single character built on the theme of light and compassion, from the benevolent yet strong king of Arnuyia to the hard-working lamplighter whose duty it is to defend the road from all evils? If so, I am content.

Edge
2013-08-16, 02:14 AM
A long-time lurker on thread here, just going to throw my 2cp into the debate.

I am not a fan of the magical girl genre - in the sense that I don't watch anything from it, not that I have anything actively against it. At no point was I deterred from the classes by the use of "magical girl" anywhere in the text, because I saw the options the class presented through refluffing. Just as you can play your fighter or warblade as a samurai sworn to a daimyo, or a knight sworn to his liege lord, there is nothing stopping you from playing a champion straight, or using the class' mechanics (and possibly a dark magical girl-inspired prestige class) to create a character not dissimilar to a death knight.

Ultimately, my point is that fluff is mutable. However, I can see the point about making terminology consistent. Therefore, I would suggest choosing to use either evoker or magical girl, and since there is nothing stopping a male character from taking these classes, my first instinct would be to go with the gender-neutral term, which also fits alongside the other gender-neutral terms of spellcaster, manifester, martial adept, etc.

And given how evident the inspiration for these classes is in their default fluff and even in their mechanics, I (personally) don't think it would affect the general tone of their presentation much.

Falcon777
2013-08-16, 06:36 AM
On a side note, i've been thinking of doing a Ponyfinder specific prestige class. Anyone want to weigh in on the concept, i have a few ideas but i would like to hear what anyone else thinks.

:smallconfused: Um...I don't really understand what the concept is of the class. Is it some prestige class that is good at finding...ponies?

Dragonus45
2013-08-16, 10:29 AM
:smallconfused: Um...I don't really understand what the concept is of the class. Is it some prestige class that is good at finding...ponies?

O no, its a pathfinder variant that has My Little Pony style ponies for the races. I think that the ToR is perfect for the idea since MLP is in many ways a Western take on the classical Magical Girl genre pre sailor moon Magical Girl Warrior stuff.

Magatsu Izanagi
2013-08-16, 01:04 PM
Long-time lurker, first-time poster in this topic. Love what you guys are doing, though I haven't been able to make any use of what you've made so far; 3.5's no longer my thing, and even if there were "official" PF conversions made for these classes, none of the DMs I've tried playing with approve of homebrew that much.

That said, given that the current topic is fluff conflicts, there is a rather minor thing that's been bugging me ever since I first saw it. One of the available prestige classes is called the Ferzian Slave. Only problem is, what the heck's a Ferzian? Google tells me that it's a rather uncommon Armenian surname, but what exactly does that have to do with magical girls?

Falcon777
2013-08-16, 03:46 PM
That's a pretty good question. Unfortunately, I don't really know. I know that the ferzian slave class is pretty much like a kick-butt butler instead of an actual slave...so there might be some kind of a connection there. Other than that, I'm not really sure.

Qwertystop
2013-08-16, 04:12 PM
Didn't it used to be that if you Friendshipped an Alignment Outsider they'd change into the nearest equivalent type for their new alignment?

NineThePuma
2013-08-16, 06:17 PM
Outsiders don't need to be their alignment. There's an Paladin Succubus around somewhere.

vasharanpaladin
2013-08-16, 06:21 PM
Outsiders don't need to be their alignment. There's an Paladin Succubus around somewhere.

Wouldn't happen to mean Eludecia (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a), would you? :smalltongue:

NineThePuma
2013-08-16, 06:24 PM
I did, in fact.

Qwertystop
2013-08-16, 06:24 PM
Outsiders don't need to be their alignment. There's an Paladin Succubus around somewhere.

I know that - but I thought there was a thing in Power of Friendship that did something like that anyway. Or was it part of a PrC or the original? I liked the image of changing a devil, stage-by-stage - Demon to Slaad to whatever the CG ones are called.

Actually... putting Slaad in there changes the image a bit. :smallyuk: Maybe Devil to Modron to LG?

Bleh... the problem is those LN and CN stages. Those things are just weird and unfortunately there's no way not to go through them unless you're converting on both axis and go Demon/Devil to Daemon to TN to NG to LG/CG, or you're starting with a Daemon.

But I liked the general idea anyway.

Snowfire
2013-08-16, 06:28 PM
You're thinking of Child of Light. If I may quote:


An End to Darkness (Su): Magical girls can always find the best in those around them, even the darkest of devils and demons. To their sight, even in those monsters of darkness and blood there is the faint spark of Light. Hidden and caged maybe, but there. And whilst most find this spark so very hard to unearth, the reincarnations of Heroes can go one better. A Child does not simply change the alignment of an outsider. Her radiant power is capable of utterly changing them, rewriting their essence into a form fitting for their new view of life and their reality and freeing them from the shackles of their old life.

At level six, the Child of Light ignores any penalties to using Power of Friendship that may stem from their target being an Outsider (or similarly alien creature). Furthermore, should they succeed in bringing their new friend to the side of Good, they immediately go through a miraculous metamorphosis. Encased in a shell of light, they emerge from it as a butterfly, their entire being purified of their former sins and essence as an unique Outsider of the appropriate subtypes. Their appearance changes to suit the aesthetic of their new alignment but they are otherwise unique creatures. The DM should adapt the newly purified Outsider as best suits his campaign and the spirit of this ability.

Qwertystop
2013-08-16, 06:42 PM
You're thinking of Child of Light. If I may quote:

Yep, that's it. But since it has to be two steps (Evil - Neutral - Good), are they still their original evil-subtyped species when you've only got them to Neutral? "to the side of good" implies that, but the fact that it seems fluffed as changing them magically all the way through the process (as inferred from not getting the Outsider penalty on any step of it) disagrees with that.

Snowfire
2013-08-16, 06:54 PM
Yep, that's it. But since it has to be two steps (Evil - Neutral - Good), are they still their original evil-subtyped species when you've only got them to Neutral? "to the side of good" implies that, but the fact that it seems fluffed as changing them magically all the way through the process (as inferred from not getting the Outsider penalty on any step of it) disagrees with that.

The change only kicks in when they hit good alignment. And even after they've been purified, they still look pretty much the same - although with some differences dependent on how your DM decides to fluff it.

The main difficulties with outsiders fighting their nature are explained quite plainly in the Succubus Paladin link above, however it goes deeper then what's there. Outsiders are, by every definition I have read, literal manifestations of the alignment that they spring from. They are not human. The do not think like humans. They do not see the world as a human would.

A devil is, in general, quite happy being a devil. Sure, they're evil, but that's their job. That's what they are. And that's the reason that as stated in the linked article, it takes magical assistance - powerful assistance - to change the nature of an Outsider's alignment properly. Oh, you can try and try and try. And yes, you'll be able to keep going for a while - note, for Outsiders 'a while' can mean multiple mortal lifespans - but in the end you can't fight what you are unless you actually change what you are. And for beings that are in some cases literally formed from the energy of their alignment, that change isn't something that can be done alone.

Hence why we have a particular template from BoED I believe, going with a spell that can turn Evil Outsiders Good. Of course, it can also kill them, but when you're messing with this sort of thing that's rather understandable.

vasharanpaladin
2013-08-16, 06:56 PM
The change only kicks in when they hit good alignment. And even after they've been purified, they still look pretty much the same - although with some differences dependent on how your DM decides to fluff it.


...The immediate mental image is Daboora showing up in Heaven after Buu ate him. :smalltongue:

Falcon777
2013-08-18, 07:03 AM
That insufferable leech? I wasn't aware that Buu's digestive track was a purifying process... :smalltongue:

Forrestfire
2013-08-18, 11:48 AM
Enma sent him to heaven because he would enjoy hell too much.

Poor guy :smalltongue:

Falcon777
2013-08-18, 12:48 PM
So just yesterday I was asking some others about the resplendent device effect and the implement type of device, and I of course found out that they are used to temporarily expand your mote pool. The implement effectively allows you to have more motes in your costume/device, while the resplendent device effect allows you, for a single turn, have more motes for your illuminations (store one, and then use the same motes for the stored one as another).

What I'm curious about is under what circumstances would someone choose one of those options rather than another (a different kind of device in the case of the implement). The implement, of course, could theoretically be useful if you wanted to have more motes in say, nimble and weightless, but what about the resplendent effect? The fact that it takes a full round action to invest in it means that it likely is only a single use per encounter thing. I mean, why bother wasting a turn to invest in it when you could instead just go ahead and use the illumination? Am I missing something here? Am I perhaps just inexperienced when it comes to tactics and theoretical situations? Or do you guys think that the effect ought to be stronger?

Moonwolf727
2013-08-18, 12:55 PM
So just yesterday I was asking some others about the resplendent device effect and the implement type of device, and I of course found out that they are used to temporarily expand your mote pool. The implement effectively allows you to have more motes in your costume/device, while the resplendent device effect allows you, for a single turn, have more motes for your illuminations (store one, and then use the same motes for the stored one as another).

What I'm curious about is under what circumstances would someone choose one of those options rather than another (a different kind of device in the case of the implement). The implement, of course, could theoretically be useful if you wanted to have more motes in say, nimble and weightless, but what about the resplendent effect? The fact that it takes a full round action to invest in it means that it likely is only a single use per encounter thing. I mean, why bother wasting a turn to invest in it when you could instead just go ahead and use the illumination? Am I missing something here? Am I perhaps just inexperienced when it comes to tactics and theoretical situations? Or do you guys think that the effect ought to be stronger?

I spent a while looking at the Resplendant effect and I can say I think you are misinterpreting just how it works, its not a major problem though. When you invest motes into the Resplendant effect to store the illumination you do not actually expend the illumination from what I can tell, it stays on your list of readied illuminations rather than counting as being used. You have to waste a round readying it but it allows you to use an illumination during the encounter without expending it and making it unavailable for later.

Hope that helps and I wasn't greviously mistaken :smallredface:

Qwertystop
2013-08-18, 02:00 PM
So just yesterday I was asking some others about the resplendent device effect and the implement type of device, and I of course found out that they are used to temporarily expand your mote pool. The implement effectively allows you to have more motes in your costume/device, while the resplendent device effect allows you, for a single turn, have more motes for your illuminations (store one, and then use the same motes for the stored one as another).

What I'm curious about is under what circumstances would someone choose one of those options rather than another (a different kind of device in the case of the implement). The implement, of course, could theoretically be useful if you wanted to have more motes in say, nimble and weightless, but what about the resplendent effect? The fact that it takes a full round action to invest in it means that it likely is only a single use per encounter thing. I mean, why bother wasting a turn to invest in it when you could instead just go ahead and use the illumination? Am I missing something here? Am I perhaps just inexperienced when it comes to tactics and theoretical situations? Or do you guys think that the effect ought to be stronger?Like I said in explaining it, Resplendent, set up ahead of time, basically has a cost of dropping your mote pool until you activate it, for a benefit of having your mote pool back afterwards.

Let's say you set up a max-power Might (Charisma) Pulses Surge (assuming for these purposes that that adds up to half your mote pool, for easier math). You set this up ahead of combat, so the action cost is meaningless.

First round of combat, you have half your mote pool available. You do something that has no mote requirement - doublemove to a better tactical position, say, with your Swift spent on a Courage + Awakening + Echoes in case someone tries to attack you.

Second round, you use your Swift action to release the Might (Charisma) + Pulses that you had in your Resplendent, giving all your allies a Charisma boost. Using that normally would leave you with half of your mote pool left, but you'd still have both a Move and a Standard left. However, since you released this from a Resplendent Device, you still have all your motes. So you use half of them on a Carnage + Ramparts to wall off your enemies and keep you healthy, and the other half on a Tremors + Explosion to hit them into the wall and, if you lined up the wall as well as you should have, do 2d6 per mote.

If you didn't have the Resplendent, you would have to choose to give up either the Charisma boost that makes the saves harder, the wall that lets you boost your damage like that and keep the enemies in place, or the blast that does the actual damage. Or just put less motes into each and have an overall weaker effect - less damage, less range, less save-boosting, and a smaller amount of wall to work with.


I spent a while looking at the Resplendant effect and I can say I think you are misinterpreting just how it works, its not a major problem though. When you invest motes into the Resplendant effect to store the illumination you do not actually expend the illumination from what I can tell, it stays on your list of readied illuminations rather than counting as being used. You have to waste a round readying it but it allows you to use an illumination during the encounter without expending it and making it unavailable for later.

Hope that helps and I wasn't greviously mistaken :smallredface:

Actually, illuminations aren't expended when used. The readied ones, you can use as much as you like within the limits of action economy and your mote pool.

Moonwolf727
2013-08-18, 02:11 PM
Actually, illuminations aren't expended when used. The readied ones, you can use as much as you like within the limits of action economy and your mote pool.

........ IGNORE ME!

Seriously how did I miss that before?!

Falcon777
2013-08-18, 03:29 PM
Like I said in explaining it, Resplendent, set up ahead of time, basically has a cost of dropping your mote pool until you activate it, for a benefit of having your mote pool back afterwards.

Let's say you set up a max-power Might (Charisma) Pulses Surge (assuming for these purposes that that adds up to half your mote pool, for easier math). You set this up ahead of combat, so the action cost is meaningless.

First round of combat, you have half your mote pool available. You do something that has no mote requirement - doublemove to a better tactical position, say, with your Swift spent on a Courage + Awakening + Echoes in case someone tries to attack you.

Second round, you use your Swift action to release the Might (Charisma) + Pulses that you had in your Resplendent, giving all your allies a Charisma boost. Using that normally would leave you with half of your mote pool left, but you'd still have both a Move and a Standard left. However, since you released this from a Resplendent Device, you still have all your motes. So you use half of them on a Carnage + Ramparts to wall off your enemies and keep you healthy, and the other half on a Tremors + Explosion to hit them into the wall and, if you lined up the wall as well as you should have, do 2d6 per mote.

If you didn't have the Resplendent, you would have to choose to give up either the Charisma boost that makes the saves harder, the wall that lets you boost your damage like that and keep the enemies in place, or the blast that does the actual damage. Or just put less motes into each and have an overall weaker effect - less damage, less range, less save-boosting, and a smaller amount of wall to work with.


Yes, but the problem with it is that unless I have a particular illumination that I want to fire off at the beginning of every fight (not entirely out of the realm of possibility), then I would have a smaller mote pool to work with until I used the effect. I suppose it could work. A might surge is actually a pretty good example of what would go into a resplendent effect. I see what you mean now. Making your following blast effect harder to resist via might or denunciations (if I have the right one) is definitely a good opening. Perhaps a tempests barrier to slow them down. Thanks for explaining that, qwerty.

Speaking of the tremors effect, though, it only does 1d6 damage per 5ft that you would have traveled if you had continued to travel. Since it costs 1 mote per 5ft of travel, it basically is a 1d6 per 2 motes until you hit an obstruction, at which point it acts like a power foundation (aka, 1d6 per 1 mote instead of 1d6 per 2 motes). It basically keeps the illumination from penalizing you for choosing tremors instead of power when you are in an enclosed environment.

Qwertystop
2013-08-18, 03:40 PM
Yes, but the problem with it is that unless I have a particular illumination that I want to fire off at the beginning of every fight (not entirely out of the realm of possibility), then I would have a smaller mote pool to work with until I used the effect. I suppose it could work. A might surge is actually a pretty good example of what would go into a resplendent effect. I see what you mean now. Making your following blast effect harder to resist via might or denunciations (if I have the right one) is definitely a good opening. Perhaps a tempests barrier to slow them down. Thanks for explaining that, qwerty.

Speaking of the tremors effect, though, it only does 1d6 damage per 5ft that you would have traveled if you had continued to travel. Since it costs 1 mote per 5ft of travel, it basically is a 1d6 per 2 motes until you hit an obstruction, at which point it acts like a power foundation (aka, 1d6 per 1 mote instead of 1d6 per 2 motes). It basically keeps the illumination from penalizing you for choosing tremors instead of power when you are in an enclosed environment.
Yeah, it's basically for first-round novas. Don't forget that what illumination you put in is not determined in the five-minute preparation, it's determined in the full-round mote commitment. You can change it every time. Also, since you can only use each illumination type once per round and you can't spend more than half your mote pool on it anyway, losing part of your mote pool only matters if you would be using more than one illumination per round (or if you are investing motes in your costume). If the illumination you put in isn't a swift action one, you can even put those motes in your costume right away after you use it, if that's how you were budgeting your motes.

It's 1d6 per 5 feet (which is the same as per mote) for all distance they were prevented from travelling. If you're setting up the wall, you can set it up so that they hit the wall immediately - start it off right behind them.

Snowfire
2013-08-18, 03:48 PM
There's a bit of math somewhere back on the first few pages that Jamieth did that shows how a properly used Resplendent effect can be rather absurdly painful. Ah, found it!


Well, actually, yes, I do really need both the surge and a blast:-) Barrier, not so much... OK, let me check whether the timing works...

Let's do some math, shall we?

An Old Red Dragon is a CR20 monster.
On the defensive side, it has 378 hp, AC 33 (touch 6), DR15/magic (irrelevant. Every weapon at these levels is magical), Frightful Presence (actually helps the Champion) and Immunity to Fire. It is, OTOH, takes 1.5 times damage from cold.

Now...

Champion 20
STR 34 (18 base + 5 levels + 5 tome + 6 belt) mod +12
CHA 28 (18 base + 4 tome + 6 cloak) mod +9
DEX/CON/INT/WIS 8
32 point buy

Costume elements:
Resplendent (20 motes), Temporal, Enchanced, Primal[cold] (18 motes), Nimble

Enchanced Armaments: Empowered (others are irrelevant)

Illuminations:

Unlimited Fist Works (UFS) (Surge, Battles*4) - effective EL 28, crafted with Sunlight Illumination, 20 motes, infused into Resplendent Device

All-Sundering Blizzard Palm (ASBP) (Blast, Assault, Prism[cold], Reactive*16) - EL 20, 20 motes, base damage 20d6 cold

Tactics:

Use cartridge to teleport into melee.

Use UFW. Your BAB is now +20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5

Full attack. Including Weapon Focus, Enchanced Device, Str bonus you now have a full attack of +34/+34/+34/+34/+34/+29/+24/+19, and damage of 1d6+22 (12 STR, 9 CHA, 1 Enchanced Device)

You now have 22 motes free. Replace your first strike with ASBP. Use reroll in case of 1.
Your damage is equal to 1d6+22 + (20d6+80) cold (4 additional damage per dice thanks to Primal with 18 motes)
Assuming average rolls, you deal 28.5 + (150*1.5) = 253 damage. AND, dragon takes 16 additional damage from every hit for one round.

Make the rest of your attacks. They now have effective damage of 1d6+38 average of 41.5 per hit.

Your attacks have a chance to hit of 0.95*4/0.85/0.6/0.35, for an average of 5.6 hits.

5.6*41 + 253 = 482 damage. A good thing our girl probably went non-lethal on a poor lizard...


Oh, yeah, I LOVE this class!


Yeah. Basically that.

jamieth
2013-08-18, 03:58 PM
I need to mention, BTW, this exact build is impossible now, since the Illuminations system was reworked since. Hadn't broken the new one yet. Just saying :-)

Falcon777
2013-08-18, 04:14 PM
What part of that particular tactic would no longer work? :smallconfused:

Qwertystop
2013-08-18, 04:21 PM
What part of that particular tactic would no longer work? :smallconfused:

Some of the things no longer exist or work differently, I assume.

I didn't look into the rules much at that point in the project (mostly I was spectating on the discussions), so I'm not sure.

Falcon777
2013-08-18, 04:35 PM
An Outsider (Augmented Humanoid) is a Humanoid that is now an Outsider. They receive benefits of being a humanoid where beneficial (and where detrimental in a few specific cases)

The augmented subtype, by itself, does nothing.

Ok, I still don't understand this. In the portion of sunlight/moonlight/starlight apotheosis, it specifically states that the character becomes a native outsider that gains an alignment subtype along with the augmented subtype (a subtype that is specific to outsiders). If being augmented only means that you are now an outsider, why specifically state that the character becomes an outsider? If being augmented means that you are now an outsider but something is getting augmented, then what gets augmented? Is there a table that states something to the effect, "If you are this original type, you receive these benefits for being augmented,"?

Forrestfire
2013-08-18, 04:43 PM
Well, you become an Outsider (Augmented [original type], Native), so you get the stuff from your original type.

NineThePuma
2013-08-18, 04:43 PM
The augmented subtype means that it USED TO BE SOMETHING ELSE.

Qwertystop
2013-08-18, 04:58 PM
It's actually right in the SRD:

Augmented Subtype
A creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type.

(emphasis mine)

sreservoir
2013-08-18, 05:17 PM
(where "traits" and "features" are actually well-defined, distinct entities: the latter are qualities of the type itself; the former, of the type's hit dice.)

Falcon777
2013-08-18, 10:23 PM
Ok. I think I'm starting to get it. As a humanoid character, said character that becomes a 20th level stargazer would become an outsider, gaining the augmented subtype, and using the outsider traits (60ft darkvision and martial proficiency) while continuing to use the humanoid features (hd, bab, saves, and skill points according to class).

So basically, correct me if I'm wrong here, Selinia is preventing characters from using the features of the outsider type by specifically stating that they gain the augmented subtype when they become a 20th level character in their base class. That is, of course, assuming that the augmented subtype isn't the default subtype gained when a character becomes a native outsider in D&D. Because if that were so, stating that a character would gain the augmented subtype would be both redundant and pointless (yes, I'm purposely being redundant there). However, from what I can tell about the fluff of the augmented subtype, any character that wasn't an outsider and suddenly became a native outsider (due to whatever reason) would naturally gain that subtype anyways (aka, it's a default gain in this situation). Am I wrong about that? If not, that's a large portion of my confusion about this.

Qwertystop
2013-08-18, 10:29 PM
Augmented is odd. It's default in that anything that changes your type that isn't some form of shape-changing (so mostly just templates and capstones) says you become an X (Augmented Y), where X is the new type and Y is the old type.

However, there's no rule that actually mandates that that happens.

Also, it really wouldn't help most characters to be pure Outsiders instead of Augmented, because most characters are from 1 or 0 RHD races, so they don't have any RHD to change from their old type to the new one.

For the few with RHD that are still playable and worth playing, it'd just be really annoying to recalculate, especially since it could change your skill points and hit dice, which would be a bit of a problem since they're not supposed to change retroactively.

Falcon777
2013-08-18, 11:13 PM
I see. Basically Selinia is making things more simple with the way she's stated it. Thanks qwerty, 'preciate the help. :smallcool:

sreservoir
2013-08-18, 11:19 PM
Ok. I think I'm starting to get it. As a humanoid character, said character that becomes a 20th level stargazer would become an outsider, gaining the augmented subtype, and using the outsider traits (60ft darkvision and martial proficiency) while continuing to use the humanoid features (hd, bab, saves, and skill points according to class).

So basically, correct me if I'm wrong here, Selinia is preventing characters from using the features of the outsider type by specifically stating that they gain the augmented subtype when they become a 20th level character in their base class. That is, of course, assuming that the augmented subtype isn't the default subtype gained when a character becomes a native outsider in D&D. Because if that were so, stating that a character would gain the augmented subtype would be both redundant and pointless (yes, I'm purposely being redundant there). However, from what I can tell about the fluff of the augmented subtype, any character that wasn't an outsider and suddenly became a native outsider (due to whatever reason) would naturally gain that subtype anyways (aka, it's a default gain in this situation). Am I wrong about that? If not, that's a large portion of my confusion about this.

no, it prevents them from gaining the traits of the outsider type. since it's keyed to "previous type", it essentially means "don't bother recalculating your RHD" unless you already had an existing augmented subtype, in which case things get strange. most pcs won't have RHD anyway, though.

Falcon777
2013-08-18, 11:37 PM
Ok...so........:smallconfused: Yeah, I'm confused again. You become an augmented humanoid (assuming you were humanoid to begin with), and you're a native outsider. As an augmented type, you're gaining the traits of your new type (native outsider) and keep the features of your old type (humanoid), right? :smallconfused: That seems to be what augmented is saying. Because if you aren't gaining anything (or losing anything, for that matter), what's the point of stating that your character has gained the augmented subtype?

vasharanpaladin
2013-08-18, 11:58 PM
Ok...so........:smallconfused: Yeah, I'm confused again. You become an augmented humanoid (assuming you were humanoid to begin with), and you're a native outsider. As an augmented type, you're gaining the traits of your new type (native outsider) and keep the features of your old type (humanoid), right? :smallconfused: That seems to be what augmented is saying. Because if you aren't gaining anything (or losing anything, for that matter), what's the point of stating that your character has gained the augmented subtype?

Augmented subtype is just trying to make things more complicated than they need to be at this point; it's only applicable for templates and that if you have racial hit dice. :smallannoyed:

What the feature SHOULD say is that you become a native outsider, as Perfect Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#perfectSelf) does.

NineThePuma
2013-08-19, 12:11 AM
It does make you a Native outsider.

A Native Outsider who happens to have been Humanoid :P

vasharanpaladin
2013-08-19, 12:14 PM
Which means nothing unless you have RHD! :smallannoyed:

sreservoir
2013-08-19, 12:59 PM
Augmented subtype is just trying to make things more complicated than they need to be at this point; it's only applicable for templates and that if you have racial hit dice. :smallannoyed:

What the feature SHOULD say is that you become a native outsider, as Perfect Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#perfectSelf) does.

no. perfect self just ... doesn't work.

perfect self doesn't even make you an outsider. perfect self just makes you vulnerable to planar binding. (well, not actually, you'd exceed the HD limits, and gate relies on (extraplanar) rather than type, but.)

(don't take design cues from the monk. in general.)

zhdarkstar
2013-08-19, 08:22 PM
Since the last PrC contest is over, I've decided to repost my entry into its own thread. I would love any constructive criticism about the Radiant Senshi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298786). Post there any changes that you feel would be necessary to bring it in line with the rest of the ToR. I already know that some changes need to be made regarding the phasing out of Enhanced Armaments.

sreservoir
2013-08-19, 11:10 PM
BUG: champion's sunlight apotheosis doesn't add the augmented subtype, the other apotheoses do.

jamieth
2013-08-20, 08:59 AM
OK, several pages ago, I promised a Wind Dancer PrC based on Selinia's Firekeeper. While still a work in progress, and most probably full of mistakes and bad design choices, here it is:


Wind Dancer


"Let me take your hand - lead you from this place,
Gonna leave it all behind,
Once you wished for this / Light had brought me here,
It's time to cut the rope and fly"
-From "Adventures of Pete the Shoemaker's Son"

Rare is a child who, looking at the sky, never wished to cast off the chains of gravity and join the birds in their flight. But, though the gift of flight itself comes relatively easy for the evokers, few of them manage to fully embrace the freedom that the infinite vastness of the sky symbolizes.

Those few are Wind Dancers, refusing to acknowledge any kinds of bonds and limits, gliding through the sky as free - and, some say, aimlessly - as the wind that guides them, and always eager to share that freedom with everyone.


Requirements
To become a wind dancer, you must fulfill the following criteria.
Skills: Escape Artist 8 ranks
Special: Must be able to manifest a Weightless Costume

Class Skill List: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge [Geography] (Int), Knowledge [Nature] (Int), Knowledge (Int), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magical Device (Cha)
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Wind Dancer
Hit Dice: d8


[th]Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special
Illuminations



1st

+0

+0

+2

+2
Free as a Wind (Escape Artist)

+1 level of existing class


2nd
+1
+0
+3
+3Gone with the Wind (Evasion)
+1 level of existing class

3rd
+2
+1
+3
+3Free as a Wind (Magic)
+1 level of existing class

4th
+3
+1
+4
+4Cloak of Winds (Wind Stance)
+1 level of existing class

5th
+3
+1
+4
+4Free as a Wind (Compulsions), Celestial Dance
---

6th
+4
+2
+5
+5Gone with the Wind (Improved Evasion)
+1 level of existing class

7th
+5
+2
+5
+5Free as a Wind (Incorporeal)
+1 level of existing class

8th
+6
+2
+6
+6Invitation to Dance
+1 level of existing class

9th
+6
+3
+6
+6Free as a Wind (Revival), Cloak of Winds (Lightning Stance)
+1 level of existing class

10th
+7
+3
+7
+7Bright Sky Apotheosis
---

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A wind dancer gains no proficiency with any weapons or armor.

Illuminations: At each indicated level, a wind dancer gains an increase in evoker level, illuminations known, illuminations readied, innate illuminations, and personas known as if they had gained a level in an illumination-using class to which they belonged before adding the prestige class level. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If she had more than one illumination-using class before becoming a wind dancer, she must decide to which class to add each level for the aforementioned purposes.

Free as a Wind (Su): The Wind Dancers not simply strive to be free themselves - their ultimate target is freedom for everyone. As a full-round action, a Wind Dancer may touch a restrained creature and aid its escape. When a Wind Dancer usses this ability, the creature affected may immediately make an Escape Artist check, using the higher of her own and Wind Dancer's skill modifiers.

Beginning at 3rd level, not even magical bonds can hold those the Wind Dancer wishes to set free instead of an escape Artist check, the affected creature may immediately roll a save against any magical effect that rerswtricts movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The creature gains a bonus on this saving throw equal to Wind Dancer's class level.

Beginning at 5th level, the wind dancer can set minds free as well as the bodies; in addition to spells restricting movement, this ability can also affect mind-affecting spells.

Beginning at 7th level, the Wind Dancer can find an exit even from prisons that don't have one. As a move action, the Wind Dancer can become Incorporeal until the end of her turn.

Beginning at 9th level, the Wind Dancer can escape not only the mortal bonds, but even the grasp of death itself. Whenever a Wind Dancer dies, she might choose to make an Escape Artist (DC 30) check as a free action; if she succeeds, her body dissolves into wind, leaving all the equipment behind. 24 hours later, she reforms, at -9 hp, stable and unconscious, at a random relatively safe spot within 100 miles of the place of her death. (For example, this effect can bring her into desert, but not ocean or volcano; into the forest inhabited by dangerous animals, but not the middle of battlefield)


Gone with the Wind (Su): A Wind dancer can avoid most area attacks by trusting the winds to carry her away from harm. At 2nd level, she gains Evasion special ability, or Improved Evasion if she already possessed Evasion from other source. at 7th level it gets upgraded to Improved Evasion.

Cloak of Winds (Su): When the Wind Dancer moves across the battlefield, winds twirl around her, disrupting the shooters' aim. At 4th level, the Wind Dancer gains a Wind Stance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/wind-stance-combat---final) as a bonus feat, even if she doesn't meet the requirements. At 9th level, this gets upgraded to Lightning Stance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/lightning-stance-combat---final).

Celestial Dance (Su): Wind is more than a tool to a wind dancer, or a title to wear – it is an inextricable part of her being, and to be parted from it is as unthinkable as it is impossible. Beginning at 5th level, the wind dancer is considered to have the Weightless costume effect active at all times – even when she does not have her costume manifested. This does not count against her normal costume effect limit, and may have motes invested in it as usual.

Invitation to dance (Su): The vastness of the sky may represent the ultimate freedom - but it may also represent the ultimate loneliness. Unwilling to accept that, Wind Dancers are always eager to share their freedom with others. A wind dancer of 8th level or higher may, as a swift action, grant her allies the taste of her own freedom. For 1 round, all of the Wind Dancer's allies within 100 feet are treated as having the Weightless Costume manifested, with the number of motes invested in it equal to half that of Wind Dancer's, rounding down. They don't actually gain this costume effect, though, and therefore can't boost it with additional motes or expend cartriges to power it. If they have Weightless costumes of their own, the effects don't stack; they enjoy the benefits of the more powerful version of the costume.

Bright Sky Apotheosis (Su): The barrier between the wind dancer and the capricious flow she channels has all but dissolved. At 10th level, a wind dancer forevermore becomes a Native Outsider with the Air subtype and an Augmented subtype pertaining to her previous type. She is now treated as if under the effects of a freedom of movement spell at all times. This ability cannot be dispelled. Once per day, she can also use freedom of movement as a spell-like ability (caster level equals her class level) to share this benefit with others. Further, she can no longer be aged by any means mundane or magical, and will never die of old age.

Falcon777
2013-08-20, 09:27 AM
This is an interesting counterpart to the aerial mage. While the latter is clearly all about speed and fighting in the air, this class is all about freedom, aerial or land based. The fact that you can still acquire an apotheosis that keeps your character from aging is pretty cool, as a lot of prestige classes in this tome do not grant that. Also, the chassis seems decent, hit die that are decently strong, 3/4 bab, good reflex and will saves: in my opinion it all matches the fluff of the class, not too strong, not too weak.

When it comes to the abilities of the class, the aerial mage is probably stronger in offence and defence. However, this class has it's role with the support it can give to other people in the party.

All in all, I'd say it's an interesting prestige class.

Dragonus45
2013-08-20, 12:55 PM
Ohhhh i love that class. Really if i wasn't already so focused on heading into aerial mage i would totally consider this for my flight based champion in snow fires thread.

jamieth
2013-08-20, 02:35 PM
The fact that you can still acquire an apotheosis that keeps your character from aging is pretty cool, as a lot of prestige classes in this tome do not grant that.
But of course! This class was in part inspired by Peter Pan, after all, so eternal youth was a no-brainer :smallsmile: (The other inspirations, by the way, were Air Gear ending and two songs mashed up into the fluff quote :smallsmile:)

When it comes to the abilities of the class, the aerial mage is probably stronger in offence and defence. However, this class has it's role with the support it can give to other people in the party.

All in all, I'd say it's an interesting prestige class.

One thing it definitely lacks, by the way, is Freedom of Movement; I just couldn't find a place to stick it in. It doesn't feel right in the Ride the Wild Wind line, cause it's all about helping others (speaking of it, this line should probably be renamed...), and the only place left free outside of it is the 6th level ability, and Freedom of Movement at level 6 seems OP, considering Paizo treats it as a proper capstone (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/liberator) in it's own right. Of course, I could go with a lesser version than "all the time", but Evokers aren't really known for their per-day abilities, usually. Hm, I'd give it as an Apopheosis ability, but according to SRD creatures with Air subtype ought to have innate fly speeds and, most often, Perfect maneuverability...


Ohhhh i love that class. Really if i wasn't already so focused on heading into aerial mage i would totally consider this for my flight based champion in snow fires thread.

Thanks!

Now, if anyone has the idea what abilities to put into the Ride the Wide Wind line... I was thinking about incorporealness, but Champions already have it from their Weightless cartridge boost. Now, the ability to grant incorporeal state to others can work - how would you save someone from an airtight prison cell, after all? - but then it is either available to Champions only (and the Wind Dancer is easily enterable by Empaths, and, in PF, even by Stargazers), or have an ability you can use on others, but not yourself... need to think of it.
Also I was thinking about refluffing the Firekeepers's bonfire resurrection for level 9, but then the Wind Dancer don't havre a bonfire analogue :-)

Snowfire
2013-08-20, 02:40 PM
Also I was thinking about refluffing the Firekeepers's bonfire resurrection for level 9, but then the Wind Dancer don't have a bonfire analogue :-)

My advice would be to build it out of Ride the Wide Wind line, or something similar. Fluff as something along the lines of at that point the line between Wind and Dancer beginning to blur, such that if they are slain they can make a check (probably slightly higher, but hey) and then escape from the clutches of death via a resurrection effect.

Oh, and I really like the class :smallsmile:

sreservoir
2013-08-20, 04:06 PM
Requirements
To become a wind dancer, you must fulfill the following criteria.
Skills: Escape Artist 8 ranks
Special: Must be able to manifest a Weightless Costume

[/SPOILER]

spare tag here


Class Skill List: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge [Geography] (Int), Knowledge [Nature] (Int), Knowledge [The Planes] (Int), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magical Device (Cha)
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Escape Artist (Dex), perhaps, at least?


Bright Sky Apopheosys(Su): The barrier between the wind dancer and the capricious flow she channels has all but dissolved. Where others might have been consumed by the force and fury of the ancient flame, she has tamed it, and tempered the eternal pyre into a weapon unlike any other. At 10th level, a wind dancer forevermore becomes a Native Outsider with the Air subtype and an Augmented subtype pertaining to her previous type. She gains a fly speed equal to her base speed with Perfect maneuverability. She still may boost her speed by investing motes into her Weighless costume effect. Further, she can no longer be aged by any means mundane or magical, and will never die of old age.

apotheosis, perhaps?

also, the "ancient flame" and the "eternal pyre".

incidentally, what are wind stance and lightning stance supposed to be?


One thing it definitely lacks, by the way, is Freedom of Movement; I just couldn't find a place to stick it in. It doesn't feel right in the Ride the Wild Wind line, cause it's all about helping others (speaking of it, this line should probably be renamed...), and the only place left free outside of it is the 6th level ability, and Freedom of Movement at level 6 seems OP, considering Paizo treats it as a proper capstone (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/liberator) in it's own right. Of course, I could go with a lesser version than "all the time", but Evokers aren't really known for their per-day abilities, usually. Hm, I'd give it as an Apopheosis ability, but according to SRD creatures with Air subtype ought to have innate fly speeds and, most often, Perfect maneuverability...

it really isn't. at 11th, you're basically expected to be able to produce a freedom of movement anyway. possibly self-only, or possibly a per encounter limitation (say, 1/encounter, lasts until end of encounter, with uses scaling up)?

since the apotheosis obsoletes weightless to the point where its only use is investing 12m to double flight speed, it might be worth fiddling with it; perhaps:


She gains a fly speed equal to her highest base speed with Perfect maneuverability. For every 3m invested in the Weightless costume effect, this fly speed increases by half her highest base speed. (This fly speed is otherwise unaffected by the Weightless costume effect.)

... hm, maybe not; even if so, the numbers probably need adjustment.


Now, if anyone has the idea what abilities to put into the Ride the Wide Wind line... I was thinking about incorporealness, but Champions already have it from their Weightless cartridge boost. Now, the ability to grant incorporeal state to others can work - how would you save someone from an airtight prison cell, after all? - but then it is either available to Champions only (and the Wind Dancer is easily enterable by Empaths, and, in PF, even by Stargazers), or have an ability you can use on others, but not yourself... need to think of it.
Also I was thinking about refluffing the Firekeepers's bonfire resurrection for level 9, but then the Wind Dancer don't havre a bonfire analogue :-)

it's an analogue to the firekeeper, eh? wind walk, perhaps? at 5th level, perhaps, then shuffle the other abilities around a bit; there's no bonfire for a resurrection, sure, but surely the soul can escape a death as a wind would escape ... how does a wind get caught in the first place, let along escape.

--

here's an idea, possibly a terrible idea, I haven't though this through that much: a phantom steed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantomSteed.htm)-esque effect, but not especially horse-shaped and not necessarily ridable (well, I guess you could take "ride the wild wind" super-literally), so really nothing like a phantom steed at all. when you're around, it stays around you; if you go away, it can wander off, but you always know their general direction and distance from you. then you can have ride the wild wind effect which key off having a "wild wind" thing around.

jamieth
2013-08-21, 01:05 AM
spare tag here

Escape Artist (Dex), perhaps, at least?

apotheosis, perhaps?

also, the "ancient flame" and the "eternal pyre".

Oops, fixed.


incidentally, what are wind stance and lightning stance supposed to be?

They're from Pathfinder; linked to SRD.

it really isn't. at 11th, you're basically expected to be able to produce a freedom of movement anyway. possibly self-only, or possibly a per encounter limitation (say, 1/encounter, lasts until end of encounter, with uses scaling up)?

since the apotheosis obsoletes weightless to the point where its only use is investing 12m to double flight speed, it might be worth fiddling with it; perhaps:


She gains a fly speed equal to her highest base speed with Perfect maneuverability. For every 3m invested in the Weightless costume effect, this fly speed increases by half her highest base speed. (This fly speed is otherwise unaffected by the Weightless costume effect.)

... hm, maybe not; even if so, the numbers probably need adjustment.

Hm... I'll probably remove it altogether, and slot the Freedom in. It's just TOO perfect for this class not to have it; as for the Air type limitations, well, the Dancer is only a swift action away from meeting them anyway.


it's an analogue to the firekeeper, eh? wind walk, perhaps? at 5th level, perhaps, then shuffle the other abilities around a bit; there's no bonfire for a resurrection, sure, but surely the soul can escape a death as a wind would escape ... how does a wind get caught in the first place, let along escape.

Added the resurrection effect; I liked it in the first place. Also, set the weaker version of Weightless Cartridge Boost on level 7; that way, Champions can still feel special, but any Wind Dancer can pass through walls if needed.

sreservoir
2013-08-21, 11:15 AM
move improved evasion to 6, put it in the table, and that fills out your table.

jamieth
2013-08-21, 12:18 PM
move improved evasion to 6, put it in the table, and that fills out your table.

Thanks, done!

sreservoir
2013-08-21, 01:03 PM
Free a a Wind (Su):

no, no, free all the wind!

jamieth
2013-08-21, 01:12 PM
no, no, free all the wind!

Now, that's simply brilliant!

update: Okay, I thought that the Tome of Radiance, despite all its awesomenes, currently somewhat lacks in the department of Tomeness, and decided to fix it. Current progress: up to post 5 on page 1. :smallredface:

Still, comment please on the general layout/readability. The current version is located here (http://www.mediafire.com/download/fedwdsg9gr9c6gs/Tome_of_Radiance.pdf).

Also, I'd love if someone could handle building some iconic characters for ToR; I'm seriously considering commissioning an originat artwork for the cover, and would like to tell the artist a bit more about who she is supposed to draw :smallcool:

jamieth
2013-08-22, 03:10 PM
Update: Tome of Radiance now includes all the stuff contained on and linked from the first page. Get the new version here (http://www.mediafire.com/?5eraarwokdyppze).

sreservoir
2013-08-22, 04:31 PM
Now, that's simply brilliant!

I, uh, wasn't exactly serious (and I think you know that), but. uh. okay.


update: Okay, I thought that the Tome of Radiance, despite all its awesomenes, currently somewhat lacks in the department of Tomeness, and decided to fix it. Current progress: up to post 5 on page 1. :smallredface:

Still, comment please on the general layout/readability. The current version is located here (http://www.mediafire.com/download/fedwdsg9gr9c6gs/Tome_of_Radiance.pdf).

Also, I'd love if someone could handle building some iconic characters for ToR; I'm seriously considering commissioning an originat artwork for the cover, and would like to tell the artist a bit more about who she is supposed to draw :smallcool:

I'm obligated to complain about wapuro typography right ;)

(the spacing is kind of off, indentation is wonky — mixing indentation and vertical spacing for paragraphing doesn't really work that well, and it's done inconsistently; the text flow not infrequently puts long spaces in a paragraph and yet still ends with a single dangling word; the margins don't seem to alternate (and are extremely thin), and tables extend off the text area (which makes the apparent margins look even smaller); the dashes are mostly hyphens, and the headings have terrible kerning; and, perhaps most importantly of all, columns hang — sometimes there'll just be a left column on the page, or otherwise there'll be two columns but one takes up all the vertical space, the other ... doesn't come even close.

and yet it's the totally unreadable sort of pdf, which makes it possibly worse. uncanny valley for my typographical sense, perhaps?

(there are also stylistic choices I'm not too fond of (sans-serif text, for example, the heading font, coloured headings), but those are a lot more opinion-dependent.))

(I can't stand poor typography in things that are trying to look like books :P — it probably is an uncanny-valley sort of effect.)

Falcon777
2013-08-22, 09:25 PM
Update: Tome of Radiance now includes all the stuff contained on and linked from the first page. Get the new version here (http://www.mediafire.com/?5eraarwokdyppze).

Thanks for taking the time and effort to do that. It's pretty cool of you to do so. If I may be so bold: MOAR PICTURES PLEASE! lol. :smalltongue: Sreservoir probably has a lot of good things to say about fixing it up, and it'd be nice if the pdf included all of the tome and not just the classes and illuminations.

Other than that, yeah, cool stuff. :smallcool:

Qwertystop
2013-08-22, 09:32 PM
Um... maybe I missed this in the discussion about what Augmented means, but is there a reason Champions aren't Outsider (Augmented X) at their capstones?

sreservoir
2013-08-22, 09:45 PM
Um... maybe I missed this in the discussion about what Augmented means, but is there a reason Champions aren't Outsider (Augmented X) at their capstones?

I'd think it's an oversight, and probably because champion was first to be written and that passage hasn't been changed since then; and that they probably should be.

(it hardly matters in most cases, of course, but still.)

jamieth
2013-08-22, 11:39 PM
I'm obligated to complain about wapuro typography right ;)

(stuff)

(I can't stand poor typography in things that are trying to look like books :P — it probably is an uncanny-valley sort of effect.)

Uh. Harsh but fair, I suppose :-) Thanks for input. I'll look at what I can do to fix it - I'm no pro, though...
The mix of indents and vertical spacing was blatantly copied from Ultimate Magic/Combat, as the only reference I had while working on that stuff (been doing it at work, without access to my full pdf library), but I agree it looks wonky.

As for hanging columns - I honestly have no idea why it does that. I'll try to handle it...

The rest, well, most can be fixed pretty quickly... I hope. I'll start working on a new version in a day or two, somewhat exhausted right now.

@Falcon: Well, ideally I'd like to keep the final version copyright-clean, but then again... if it is for private use only, I guess there's no harm in scavenging a 'net for some art, I guess :-) would do.

zhdarkstar
2013-08-22, 11:55 PM
Feel free to add my Radiant Senshi PrC to the pdf if you'd like. I gave her a couple tweaks tonight, including an expansion to 10 levels to adjust balance issues.

EDIT: Also, would a stance device be affected by Superior Unarmed Strike or other means of increasing unarmed damage die?

jamieth
2013-08-23, 12:46 AM
@zhdarkstar: would do, eventually; I'm planning to go throught the thread adding stuff that didn't got on the front page anyway.

@sreservoir: since you obviously have more experience in that, what would be the reasonable margins for the A4 page? Also, I found the way to fix hanging comumns, it seems... still need some rest. Would get back to it after I finished rewatching Sailor Moon season 2)

jamieth
2013-08-23, 12:56 AM
@zhdarkstar: would do, eventually; I'm planning to go throught the thread adding stuff that didn't got on the front page anyway. Though, I need to think about how to handle the PrCs that reference other Homebrew... maybe a sidebar with link to the relevant threads?

@sreservoir: since you obviously have more experience in that, what would be the reasonable margins for the A4 page? Also, I found the way to fix hanging comumns, it seems... still need some rest. Would get back to it after I finished rewatching Sailor Moon season 2)

vasharanpaladin
2013-08-23, 12:04 PM
EDIT: Also, would a stance device be affected by Superior Unarmed Strike or other means of increasing unarmed damage die?

It should do, once you get to a level where SUS is bringing your damage past 1d6? Just keeping in mind that SUS would only apply when you've got your Stance active, I'd allow it...

NineThePuma
2013-08-25, 12:05 PM
Can an individual form multiple soulbonds?

Draken
2013-08-25, 12:24 PM
Can an individual form multiple soulbonds?

Just asked Selinia and she said that only one soulbond is allowed at a time. Although it isn't sufficiently clear.

In light of this. I am going to make a Harem PrC for soulbonds and post it as soon as possible.

NineThePuma
2013-08-25, 12:42 PM
There goes my plan to make the entire party take craft soulbond so we could do the youg justice telepathy thing.

Dragonus45
2013-08-26, 03:25 AM
There goes my plan to make the entire party take craft soulbond so we could do the youg justice telepathy thing.

You could perhaps do a special feat group soulbond, but only allow a person to use the latter feats in the chain with one other teammate.

zhdarkstar
2013-08-26, 10:52 AM
There goes my plan to make the entire party take craft soulbond so we could do the youg justice telepathy thing.

If you don't mind mixing a hearty dose of Sentai into the group dynamic, Radiant Senshi has an ability option to allow for limited group soulbonding:


Soulbond of Justice [Radiant]
Requirements: Craft Soulbond, Team Player
Benefit: You may create a Soulbond with a number of partners equal to your Illusion-using stat modifier. This allows you to benefit from multiple Soulbonds simultaneously. Each of your partners benefits from their Soulbond with you; however, your partners do not gain the benefit of each other unless they also have Soulbond of Justice.

This ability was inspired by the classic scene where Sailor Moon is channeling her friends against Queen Beryl at the end of the first season.

Falcon777
2013-08-26, 10:27 PM
So...I was looking at the illumination section again and I saw something that made me curious: the eruption shape of a blast illumination. Does that shape mean that the evoker takes damage as well? Because if so....it's not nearly as good as I used to think.

jamieth
2013-08-26, 10:49 PM
Hm... from the SRD, the only analogue I could find on a cursory check was an Energy Burst psionic power, and it specifically states that manifester is unaffected. I'm pretty sure that wasn't the intention, but need clarification...

NineThePuma
2013-08-26, 10:53 PM
I feel like there was a Force Push option for blasts but can't find it. Was I imagining things?

EDIT:

Oh, it was a Foundation, not a Secondary.

Falcon777
2013-08-26, 11:20 PM
Sure, it seems to make sense that the blast wouldn't affect the evoker, but it doesn't say so, and while I'm not seeking conflict concerning the matter, I was afraid it might happen elsewhere. Therefore I brought the matter up.

jamieth
2013-08-27, 12:49 AM
Hm, a question of my own: when a Prestige Class progresses Empath's persona capacity, does it also grants access to higher Persona tiers? For example, can an Empath 5/Firekeeper 6 (who has personas known as a 10th level Empath) select a Greater aspect?

Also, Listener to Light's description states that it progresses "access to illuminations, as well as Evoker Level". Does that include Persona Capacity? Personas Known? Innate Illuminations?

Also, something I noticed while working on the pdf - the way PrCs treat costume elements is wildly inconsistent. So far, the two main options seem to be "Enchanced Weaving" (PrC grants additional Costume Effects on its own) and "Remembered Weaving" (PrC levels stack with the base class to determine number of Cotume Effects), and in the latter case, it is sometimes unclear whether that means all PrC levels, or only those that progress EL. And then some PrCs progress Costume Effects "As Empath" or "As Champion"- - again, does it stack with actual Empath or Champion levels? I mean, for my games, I can houserule it, of course, or call a GM's decision, but for the Tome of Radiance pdf, I'd love some sort of official ruling.

(note: I'm fine with two templates for Costume Effects progression, themselves. they just need to be more consistent.

zhdarkstar
2013-08-27, 02:20 AM
Hm, a question of my own: when a Prestige Class progresses Empath's persona capacity, does it also grants access to higher Persona tiers? For example, can an Empath 5/Firekeeper 6 (who has personas known as a 10th level Empath) select a Greater aspect?

Also, Listener to Light's description states that it progresses "access to illuminations, as well as Evoker Level". Does that include Persona Capacity? Personas Known? Innate Illuminations?

Also, something I noticed while working on the pdf - the way PrCs treat costume elements is wildly inconsistent. So far, the two main options seem to be "Enchanced Weaving" (PrC grants additional Costume Effects on its own) and "Remembered Weaving" (PrC levels stack with the base class to determine number of Cotume Effects), and in the latter case, it is sometimes unclear whether that means all PrC levels, or only those that progress EL. And then some PrCs progress Costume Effects "As Empath" or "As Champion"- - again, does it stack with actual Empath or Champion levels? I mean, for my games, I can houserule it, of course, or call a GM's decision, but for the Tome of Radiance pdf, I'd love some sort of official ruling.

(note: I'm fine with two templates for Costume Effects progression, themselves. they just need to be more consistent.

I think the Empath progression only covers personas known and innate illuminations, not capacity or aspects. Those two have to be increased via some other means at the moment. At least that's the assumption I operated under while designing Illuminating Senshi's special rules.

I opted not to increase capacity due to Heart of Justice already adding abilities to each persona. Empath-based Radiant Senshi probably take the most advantage of the martial maneuvers due to their more restricted illumination usage. So I played to its strength of variety to allow each persona to be further customized in terms of mechanics and role.

Although I wouldn't complain if it turned out that Empaths get better progression than we thought. I just like to be thorough with my brew. (Still can't believe how many rulings were needed for a 6 level hybrid PrC)

As for costume progression, I think your original levels stack under the new progression if a PrC changes it. The whole concept is to make up for shortfalls that one of the three bases might have by comparison to the other two, b

Dragonus45
2013-08-30, 11:42 AM
So i was wondering if there was any word on when we might now about the finishing of that radiant armaments things.

Qwertystop
2013-08-30, 11:55 AM
I just realized, I think Empath would work really well for an idea that's been bouncing around in my head for about two years (best class before that was Binder, which had the whole only-once-in-a-day limit). Basically it was a character who has... MPD doesn't quite fit. Bunch of separate personalities, but not separate memories or minds, just acts differently. The point is none of them are default - backstory is a magic-user parent who decided to shortcut the whole teach-the-kid-how-to-act bit of raising a child, plus getting an easy test subject for Enchantments and a verbal off-switch. The parent messes up something else and dies, or lets the child go out into the world, and the whole thing destabalizes a bit.

Takes a bit of refluffing, but any other class would just be dividing all abilities into an arbitrary list of what to use when.

Falcon777
2013-09-01, 03:30 PM
I'm wondering about something: can the echoes secondary component allow a resolve surge to do healing for multiple rounds in a row? Or is echoes just for any other components that have been added on?

zhdarkstar
2013-09-01, 03:39 PM
Resolve [Champion, Empath, Stargazer]
When her allies are worn and battered by the trials they face, a magical girl may lend her radiance to bring new vigor to weary flesh and bone. For every 1m of this illumination's cost, targets of the surge are cured of 1d6 points of damage. After receiving healing from an illumination with the Resolve component, the target cannot benefit from the effects of this component for one minute. Targets under this restriction still receive the benefit of any other effects of an illumination, and benefit from other sources of healing normally.

This leads me to believe that the Resolve component is an exception to Echoes' duration.

Falcon777
2013-09-01, 03:53 PM
That's what I figured, but I thought I would ask other people first before I made assumptions.

sreservoir
2013-09-01, 04:05 PM
@zhdarkstar: would do, eventually; I'm planning to go throught the thread adding stuff that didn't got on the front page anyway. Though, I need to think about how to handle the PrCs that reference other Homebrew... maybe a sidebar with link to the relevant threads?

@sreservoir: since you obviously have more experience in that, what would be the reasonable margins for the A4 page? Also, I found the way to fix hanging comumns, it seems... still need some rest. Would get back to it after I finished rewatching Sailor Moon season 2)

not at a computer, can't really give a link citation, but cf. memdesign section 3.2, esp. table 3.1 (33), figure 3.14 (42): spine margin 26.25 mm, top margin the same, edge and foot margins 43.75 mm (5/3 that); 1 in. spine and top, 1.7 in. edge and foot should be close enough if you need those. yes, this will probably look like an absolutely tiny textarea if you're not used to it; it's optimal for reading for 10pt or thereabouts and sets the text proportions to ~phi. I can try working out margins for larger text, but try those, see how it works.

Eurus
2013-09-15, 12:03 PM
What happens when you throw a Tricky device? Does it return to you, or do you need to go pick it up?

Lix Lorn
2013-09-15, 02:15 PM
Additionally, after being thrown, a tricky device immediately returns to the evoker's hand, ready to be used again.
Returns. ;P

Eurus
2013-09-15, 02:45 PM
Man, I read that entry like three times. I am not good at this today.

Lix Lorn
2013-09-15, 03:35 PM
It happens. DXD

Selinia
2013-09-19, 01:33 AM
Due to not wanting this to take glubbing forever (and the fact that I'm pretty sure I'd break multiquote if I did), I will not be responding directly to any question that is answered or resolved in the changelog. That said, thanks a ton to everyone pointing things out, as usual - particularly AmberVael and sreservoir, who continue to go over things with a marvelously fine-toothed comb.

Changelog:


The Empath broke the 50,000 character limit, and has been split into two posts.
The Empath has gained the Changing Heart class feature, giving them new resources with which to customize each of their personas to a desired role. The Heart of War feat, from which this ability was expanded, has been removed.
The Empath's magician aspect may no longer craft small planetoids.
Wording has been added to the Illuminations text to clarify that Innate and Persona illuminations may be changed on levelup.
You may now change armament effects with a five-minute ritual. Performing this ritual at the same time as the one allowing you to ready illuminations remains possible, but Empaths now have a method to change armament effects when they wish to do so.
Radiant Armaments have been overhauled significantly. No costume of device archetype now possesses a class requirement, and their accompanying effects are no longer limited to specific archetypes. Further, the archetypes themselves have been diversified with new abilities to render them distinct from one another.
Enhanced Armaments no longer exist. Champion has gained the Limit Form ability to replace it - other classes may simply take advantage of the improved innate effects of Radiant Armaments.
Costume Effects (the subsystem) are now known as Armament Effects, to better differentiate them from Costume Effects (as in, Armament Effects applied to a costume).
Oversized Costume effect added. Knock it out of the park!
The Defiant costume effect now grants DR X/Adamantine, upgrading to DR X/-. This makes the costume significantly more difficult to bypass in the early levels without equipment designed specifically for the task.
Wording of the Flare and Bombs components clarified.
The Eruption component now scales in 1m increments of 5', rather than 2m increments of 10. There was no real reasoning behind this - it was a relic of an earlier pricing scheme.
The Chains component is now the Swarms component, trading in its bounces for a forked-lightning style assault and carving out a niche as the most precise method available for targeting large, scattered enemy forces.
The Barricades component is under review for being really glubbing confusing with regard to some of its aspects. Until I can figure out some concrete answers for this, consult your DM.
The Might component has been clarified.
References to Barriers targeting an individual have been removed. I think. All barriers target an area - this was a relic of an earlier draft of the illumination type.


More to come shortly, including PrC feedback that I simply am not feeling up to at 2:30 AM. For now, I require sleep.

zhdarkstar
2013-09-19, 07:30 AM
I definitely like the new changes. Changing Heart is a nice change that no longer eats up a feat slot. Fortunately, the changes made did not require any major rewriting of Radiant Senshi. I only had to replace the old names (Costume Effects and Heart of War) with the new names. I did change the Sentai ability requirement for Heart of Sentai from Magical Adaptation to Overdrive for possible balance issues/more apparent synergy. Also added a Stargazer-only Radiant Ability in Sentai Celerity, allowing the bonus limit on Astral Celerity to be raised via sentai level in the same manner as Costumed Destiny does for Armament Effects.

Yarghenforgen
2013-09-19, 09:58 AM
Huzzah, now that armaments are updated, my dreams of magical girl batman can finally be realized.

Now to figure out how to change Radiant Armorer, as a large chunk of its mechanics were based on Enhanced Armaments.

UserShadow7989
2013-09-19, 12:30 PM
Seconding the hearty approval of the new changes. A few nitpicks: The Champion's table still has one mention of Enhanced Armaments, under its 20th level 'Special', and the old Enhanced Armaments section's header is stuck awkwardly between the Costume Archetypes and Device Archetypes sections.

As for the changes themselves, right off the bat I'm a fan of the revamped Device Archetypes getting a different effect each- a simple change that allows for some meaningful customization that doesn't just involve numbers going up, an issue that plagued the Enhanced Armaments. That purpose is served far better by having been rolled into the Radiant Armaments, which are more than interesting enough and now have a nice kicker on top of the good stuff.

Serafina
2013-09-19, 05:36 PM
I would suggest that the feats you grab via Changing Heart can serve as prerequisite for each other.
For example, if i take Heart of Fortune for my Fool Persona, the first Luck feat i take at third level should serve as a prerequisite for the Luck feat i take at eight level (otherwise, grabbing multiple luck-feats would be very hard, since most have luck-feats as prerequisites).

NineThePuma
2013-09-19, 09:02 PM
Now to figure out how to change Radiant Armorer, as a large chunk of its mechanics were based on Enhanced Armaments.

For some reason, I'd been reading Enhanced Armory as "get more costume elements"

Lix Lorn
2013-09-19, 09:06 PM
I would really like more costume elements...

jamieth
2013-09-19, 11:49 PM
A couple nitpicks: there is still a reference to Enchanced Armaments in the Costume Archetypes section; Empath table lacks Changing Heart at 3rd level (and, possibly, later levels where you get new feats). Also, I agree that Heart feats should allow to be used as prereqs, is only for getting other Heart feats. Otherwise, nice update overall.

vasharanpaladin
2013-09-19, 11:57 PM
Now, see, when I said there needed to be a costume element that increases size category, I meant for the costume, not the device. :smallwink:

Eurus
2013-09-20, 02:44 AM
Now, see, when I said there needed to be a costume element that increases size category, I meant for the costume, not the device. :smallwink:

My first thought was "that would be very odd." Then I imagined a frilly magical girl going all "Eh-neeek-chock" and punching out Godzilla. Now I think this needs to happen. :smallamused:

Selinia
2013-09-20, 03:56 AM
Changelog:


Tables for Champion and Empath cleaned up.
Enhanced Armaments are no longer mentioned in the Radiant Armaments section.
Shining Princess PrC added! See below.



The Shining Princess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15616708&postcount=438)

This one was, at least, fairly easy to review! It is simple, to the point, and it does what it sets out to do. There are a few nitpicks I have with it, but by and large, I really like the class!

One, most obviously, Enhanced Armaments do not exist any more. The simplest way of handling this might just to let Princess levels stack with Champion levels for the purposes of determining the effects of Limit Mode, and to grant access to Limit Mode at Princess level five if they do not already have it.

Two, I would prefer if the additional Armament Effects were tied to a fixed level (as the Valkyrie does), rather than fiddling with different class progressions for effects. This is the 'official' method of costume scaling, and it is something I would like to see across the PrCs for the sake of simplicity and consistency... but it is something that pretty much none of the existing PrCs use as of now, so this is not really a big deal.

Third, and finally, the formatting of some of the explanations makes the entry a little bit odd-looking, constantly swapping between italics and plaintext. If I might make a small suggestion, grouping explanations together and putting them in a spoiler marked "Explanation" might go a long way towards making the presentation a bit neater. I'd also bring up the size of the headline, and use the standard class table format - small things like left-justifying the words on the class table, and including the line breaks in Base Attack Bonus or the Saves do a lot to help maintain a sense of consistency between classes.


I would suggest that the feats you grab via Changing Heart can serve as prerequisite for each other.
For example, if i take Heart of Fortune for my Fool Persona, the first Luck feat i take at third level should serve as a prerequisite for the Luck feat i take at eight level (otherwise, grabbing multiple luck-feats would be very hard, since most have luck-feats as prerequisites).


A couple nitpicks: there is still a reference to Enchanced Armaments in the Costume Archetypes section; Empath table lacks Changing Heart at 3rd level (and, possibly, later levels where you get new feats). Also, I agree that Heart feats should allow to be used as prereqs, is only for getting other Heart feats. Otherwise, nice update overall.

Have to agree with regards to Heart prerequisites. Tables should be updated now - thanks for pointing those out!


I would really like more costume elements...

This remains one of my primary concerns at the moment. There is a severe lack of good costume (and to a lesser extent, device) elements available.


My first thought was "that would be very odd." Then I imagined a frilly magical girl going all "Eh-neeek-chock" and punching out Godzilla. Now I think this needs to happen. :smallamused:

I am honestly strongly considering implementing size-changing or shape-changing costume elements in some capacity. However, if you want a genuine Mahou Shoujo Radioactive Gojira-chan, that falls into the domain of the Monster Girl. That is Draken's project, but from what I've seen of it thus far, the class ought to be quite amusing once completed.

vasharanpaladin
2013-09-20, 02:08 PM
My first thought was "that would be very odd." Then I imagined a frilly magical girl going all "Eh-neeek-chock" and punching out Godzilla. Now I think this needs to happen. :smallamused:

Oh, nothing quite like that. I just wanted Devil Tyrant Avatar Shintai to go with my champion's Green Sun Nimbus Flare illumination. :smallbiggrin:

Lix Lorn
2013-09-20, 06:12 PM
Couple of edits made.

As for not enough costumes, I meant how slow the progression happens :smalltongue:

Eurus
2013-09-20, 06:24 PM
Man, I like the Shining Princess, but those are some steep entry requirements. 3 Stargazer, 3 Champion, and 4 Empath levels? That would be a hilariously impractical character to play through levels 1-10 with.

zhdarkstar
2013-09-20, 10:13 PM
Man, I like the Shining Princess, but those are some steep entry requirements. 3 Stargazer, 3 Champion, and 4 Empath levels? That would be a hilariously impractical character to play through levels 1-10 with.

Well if you go Empath -> Champion -> Stargazer -> Shining Princess, it's not as bad of a struggle. You would have full BAB progression for 1-7 and regain it completely at 11, making up for the lost progression during your Stargazer levels. A Wisdom-based evoker would see the least struggle using this build, but an Intelligence-based build would get the better payoff for their longer struggle once Radiant Unity increases the cap on Astral Celerity.

Btw, this PrC actually brought an interesting point to light regarding the Aura costume type and being a multiple evoker. Which evoking stat would you use, the highest of the relevant scores or the score based on the class that granted the particular costume?

EDIT: Just noticed that the line about fighter BAB progression for aspects is slightly redundant due to the second paragraph of Radiant Unity, specifically the bolded part:


The Shining Princess has a single Evoker Level, which is the sum of all of her evoker levels, to a maximum of her character level. This supersedes the usual evoker level stacking rules. Whenever an ability refers to a Champion, Stargazer, or Empath class level, instead use this Evoker level.

Serafina
2013-09-21, 12:43 PM
Valkyrie still mentions Enhanced Armaments.
I'd suggest a free Radiant Arsenal and/or Lightforge Feat as a replacement, since it seems appropriate to a Valkyrie.

Yarghenforgen
2013-09-21, 01:35 PM
Mmm, been thinking it over. Would it be an appropriate replacement to replace Radiant Armourer's Enhanced Armoury and Reforged Radiance ability with something similar to Firekeeper's Heart of Flame, giving all their devices (including those wielded by allies) the Enhanced Effect, as well as letting Radiant Armourer levels stack with Champion for the purposes of Limit Form? I'm trying to think of a level appropriate for the former effect, as giving it at level 1 might make it too appealing for a dip.

Lix Lorn
2013-09-21, 04:28 PM
Man, I like the Shining Princess, but those are some steep entry requirements. 3 Stargazer, 3 Champion, and 4 Empath levels? That would be a hilariously impractical character to play through levels 1-10 with.
Yeah, a little. ><


EDIT: Just noticed that the line about fighter BAB progression for aspects is slightly redundant due to the second paragraph of Radiant Unity, specifically the bolded part:
It could be argued that 'your empath class level' is a different thing to 'empath class levels'. If it is redundant, adding it loses little, and if it's not redundant, it's important.

Owrtho
2013-09-21, 06:19 PM
Mmm, been thinking it over. Would it be an appropriate replacement to replace Radiant Armourer's Enhanced Armoury and Reforged Radiance ability with something similar to Firekeeper's Heart of Flame, giving all their devices (including those wielded by allies) the Enhanced Effect, as well as letting Radiant Armourer levels stack with Champion for the purposes of Limit Form? I'm trying to think of a level appropriate for the former effect, as giving it at level 1 might make it too appealing for a dip.

Well, off hand my thoughts for changes would be:
changing armament effects progression to be set by the class (Most likely slightly faster than a champion).
For the purpose of class abilities, each costume or device (from those gained when first becoming an invoker to those gained by Radiant Arsenal would be a separate armament). Each armament could be tailored with armament effects (within the confines of abilities), enchantments, and imbued motes. The armourer would always need to have at least one costume and one device among these, but can also summon multiple copies of any given one.
Add an ability that allows the armament effect pool to be expanded beyond the normal amount, but still limits the possible combinations of any given effect and device combination to the normal amount.
In example: If you normally could have two effects, but your pool of effects is three, you would need to decide how many would go to costumes an how many to devices (say one each). Then you would choose what effects you have in the pool, with device and costume each needing to have at least as many effects selected as are given to them in the previous step (so you choose one costume effect and two device effects). All your costumes can have the costume effect, but each device can only have one or the other of the two device effects.
Allow a single armament effect for armaments used by others but don't let it be imbued with motes. Later increase this amount, possibly to a max of 2 or 3. The if the armament has more effects assigned to it than the limit, the one it will grant to others is chosen when it is summoned.
Rework reforged radiance to the ability to forge motes into devices and costumes to improve them. This could be used to grant motes to armament effects, or to provide enchantments of a weapon enhancement equal to the number of motes forged into it. Would be limited to half class level worth of motes (at least for enchantments, may allow armament effects to be slightly above that, such as having the combine total a max of half evoker level). May also allow devices and costumes to have their type changed.
Might have this cost only impact the armourer while at least one copy of the given armament is summoned, also making her unable to summon a given armament if it would go past her current amount of motes available.
Man, I'm rusty on the armament rules (or possibly this is something that changed since before). Anyway, reforging armaments would allow the armourer to prep the given armament to allow a given number of motes for specific effects available to it when not used by the armourer herself (to a max of the previously noted limit when taking into account the enchantments as well). Thereafter she could as a swift action when within some distance (possibly scaling with level) of the armament assign motes to those effects (up to the selected amount) like she can to armaments used by herself.
Replace Arsenal Effects (or rather likely change it to one of the earlier mentioned new abilities dealing with effects and name this something else) with a modified version given you can already have effects from one of the earlier abilities. Instead, would grant all device/costumes you make a number of 'free' motes equal to half the combine number of motes imbued and forged into the armaments you are using (may need a max limit based on class level). These free motes could be applied either toward effects or toward the reforged radiance ability. Would still allow the armourer to specifically put motes into them with reforged radiance.
Adjust Allied Assault as mentioned here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14729094&postcount=275).
Remove Effective Arsenal, is fairly useless and needlessly complicated in light of some of the above changes.

Owrtho