Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

[Hunter Noventa]

I only just found this glorious and amazing...thing of immense beauty. It far outshines my own attempts to shoehorn magical girl aspects in 3.5/PF, and I'm going to beat my DM over the head with it.

I love it all. The subtle nods to everything...the outright overt nod to the Persona series with the Empath, it's just so amazing that it makes me want to weep with joy.

[jamieth]

@Hunter Noventa: I can in no way speak for Selinia, but still thanks for your praise!

@Everyone: after far too long, I found some free time again, and an episode 2 of "Bringing Light Where the Sun Don't Shine" aka adventures of four Radiants in the Sunless Citadel is up:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1A5TYBegcTDpTY4RSu4NCvP1guCJUYnxf3hnNAwwOvRg/edit?usp=sharing

[tonberrian]

Can Barriers normally target characters? Returning seems to imply that they are, as it has text that it doesn't follow that.

[sreservoir]

iirc it's a relic from an older version preserved to future-proof for when/if such functionality were to be added backa.

[Darkweave31]

I have to say I absolutely love it... thinking I could rework the fluff and combine with the high school harem comedy homebrew system for an Infinite Stratos game ^^,

[Hunter Noventa]

So I've been working to get ready to use the system in an upcoming game, and I find myself having a couple of odd issues, mostly because of a lack of examples I think. Like, I'm Working up an Empath that will go into Magical idol and figuring out personas and Illuminations. Part of it is theming the personas and what abilities to give them, but another part of it is the Innate Illumination. Like, the Example of Mira at level 1 on the wiki seems to be midsing an innate illumination, but has them later.

I'm also kind of confused about how Barriers work in regards to edges. is this because they can have od shapes like walls or taking up individual blocks? Like, if I had a Shadow Borders Barrier, since that's a wall it would provide the miss chance to everything on one side of the wall or am I missing something else here?

I'm also trying to figure out well, what you'd do with the sheer number of illuminations a Champion has, unless you really are supposed to give them several different kinds of blast.

I think the system could do with a section of example illuminations and breaking down how they're built so the process is a little bit easier to follow, personally.

Also would be helpful if a large chunk of the Magical idol information wasn't just plain missing on the wiki. I still love everything here, I just think it needs some more examples of how things are intended to be built.

[jamieth]

In order: Innate Illuminations numbers were tweaked kinda late in the development, possibly Mira's sheet was made before that. Table on the Wiki is the latest version, I believe (Though, in case of any doubt, use versions of classes in this thread; first post should have them all linked)

Re:Barriers: Borders Barrier consists only of its edge, and the edge, as far as I understand, grants concealment both ways.

Re:Champion: Well, you might want at least one ranged Blast and an Assault one, and Awakening Surge of Might for +2 Cha or +2 Str or +2 Dex, depending on your build, is always nice.

Re:Magical Idol. My bad :-( You can either look up the class table on this thread, or wait for me to fix a wiki (which should take no more than several minutes)

[Garryl]

I know it's designed to be used offensively to stop enemies from buffing, but the Isolation surge foundation is really strong antimagic when used defensively. That is, it's better as a buff than as a debuff. Of course, it's even better as both (via Bolts or Pulses).
- SR 15 + mote cost is on the high end of SR (75% resist rate vs. an equal level spellcaster). That you don't need a standard action to lower it for friendly spells and that you still leave it up against harmful spells when you do so is just icing on the cake.
- Automatic suppression of magical effects (1/3 motes). Assuming a bare minimum of party communication, everyone should know what buffs everyone else in the party has been using, so you can exclude those from the randomized targeting. If you have a good enough Spellcraft skill to identify what gets cast all the time, you can exclude everything except for the ones you really want to suppress. It's not quite as good as straight out dispelling a debuff, but with motes refreshing each round you can easily keep short- and medium-duration effects suppressed until they run out.

If you want to change it to be only a debuff, I would recommend removing the parts where you choose what spells are and aren't affected and instead have it only apply to harmless spells.

[Reality Glitch]

The Wishmaster class in my signature uses some material from this, if you wish (pun intended) you could go check it out. (It could stand a little more P.E.A.C.H.ing)

[Hunter Noventa]

In order: Innate Illuminations numbers were tweaked kinda late in the development, possibly Mira's sheet was made before that. Table on the Wiki is the latest version, I believe (Though, in case of any doubt, use versions of classes in this thread; first post should have them all linked)


Ah okay, that makes sense then.



Re:Barriers: Borders Barrier consists only of its edge, and the edge, as far as I understand, grants concealment both ways.


Interesting. but if you were to make a Shadows Stronghold, only those within it would get the concealment bonus then?



Re:Champion: Well, you might want at least one ranged Blast and an Assault one, and Awakening Surge of Might for +2 Cha or +2 Str or +2 Dex, depending on your build, is always nice.


True enough, though at say, Level 1 surges are less useful depending on your build too. I guess I need to be thinking that they can do more than illuminations, Champions are meant to be potent combatants and buffing their own attack in addition to having blasts is an option.



Re:Magical Idol. My bad :-( You can either look up the class table on this thread, or wait for me to fix a wiki (which should take no more than several minutes)

Yeah i did spot it here and took a look, it's not like time is an issue.

Now I just have to figure out how to theme my Personas, and I doubt anyone here could help with that. Though it seems logical to have one focus on buffing, another on debuffing, another on blasting, while using the Innate Illuminations for a basic blast and surge kind of combo.

Oh! Magical idol calls out Personas known in it's section on growing class features, but is the Persona capacity included in that?

[Garryl]

Interesting. but if you were to make a Shadows Stronghold, only those within it would get the concealment bonus then?


Concealment applies across the edge, not specifically to those inside or outside. Everyone outside treats targets inside as having concealment and everyone inside treats targets outside as having concealment. There's no concealment for attacks from folks inside the barrier against others inside the barrier.

[Hunter Noventa]

Concealment applies across the edge, not specifically to those inside or outside. Everyone outside treats targets inside as having concealment and everyone inside treats targets outside as having concealment. There's no concealment for attacks from folks inside the barrier against others inside the barrier.

Well, that seems less than useful then, I'm having a hard time thinking of a situation where I'd want to basically give my enemies concealment like that.

[jamieth]

Hiding from enemy archers while spamming area illuminations which don't suffer miss chance? Though I agree it's likely situational...

[Garryl]

The Shadows barrier also useful against mixed range parties. If some are in melee and others at range, you can fight the melee enemies without problem while the ranged foes suffer the miss chance. At 12 motes it counts as total concealment so you can't even be targeted by spells and you don't provoke attacks of opportunity. Since you control when the barrier goes up, you can put it up after your attacks but before your enemies, giving you the defensive benefits without impeding your attacks. Concealment also prevents sneak attack and other precision damage abilities, so you can use it to further impede enemy rogues.

That being said, Shelter (the barrier that gives cover) will frequently be a better choice. Unless your AC is so low that enemies are hitting you on a natural 1, the AC bonus will provide a better defensive benefit than the miss chance. You also get a bonus on Reflex saves, and the sorta-total cover at 12 motes completely prevents all attacks (except melee attacks), not just targeted spells. Having cover doesn't stop precision damage, but it does prevent attacks of opportunity right from the get-go. And as a plus, Champions get access to Shelter (but not Shadows).

[Hunter Noventa]

The Shadows barrier also useful against mixed range parties. If some are in melee and others at range, you can fight the melee enemies without problem while the ranged foes suffer the miss chance. At 12 motes it counts as total concealment so you can't even be targeted by spells and you don't provoke attacks of opportunity. Since you control when the barrier goes up, you can put it up after your attacks but before your enemies, giving you the defensive benefits without impeding your attacks. Concealment also prevents sneak attack and other precision damage abilities, so you can use it to further impede enemy rogues.

That being said, Shelter (the barrier that gives cover) will frequently be a better choice. Unless your AC is so low that enemies are hitting you on a natural 1, the AC bonus will provide a better defensive benefit than the miss chance. You also get a bonus on Reflex saves, and the sorta-total cover at 12 motes completely prevents all attacks (except melee attacks), not just targeted spells. Having cover doesn't stop precision damage, but it does prevent attacks of opportunity right from the get-go. And as a plus, Champions get access to Shelter (but not Shadows).

All right I can see that. I guess I'm just too used to thinking in the context of my usual campaigns, as we've been having a lot of 'boss' battles, most recently we took down a Shoggoth.

[Nyaa]

Is there martial initiating discipline to use with (or in place of) Tome of Radiance? I've googled around but didn't find anything.

[jamieth]

I don't think so; you can take the Valirye, which is the Tome of Radiance/Tome of Battle gestalt PrC, but you'll be limited to existing disciplines.

Of course, with Imbue Blast shape, you get to add your illuminations damage to your martial Strikes, which is nice in the first place.

[Sweetiebot]

Anybody got a copy of the latest PDF? I can't use the ones that Jamieth posts. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/sand/icons/icon_smallannoyed.gif

[Hunter Noventa]

So I'm going to finally be utilizing these rules (After some quick pathfinder conversions) and have run into something a bit confusing.

I'm planning to play a Radiant Armourer (http://tome-of-radiance.wikia.com/wiki/Radiant_Armourer), coming in from Stargazer, but the text of the Armament Effects ability is somewhat confusion. I get that Armament Effects = Imbuements, but i want to know if I'm interpreting it right.

From that I'm reading, you have a pool of Imbuements for each type of Armament (Device, Costume, and possibly shield) equal to the Armament Effect Pool. Then for each one of these you summon, you pick Imbuements equal to the Armament Effect Limit. All of this is on top of however many Imbuements you have for you Evoker Level. is that the way it should be?

Like, I've got a Marksman Device, and my 1 Imbuement on it is Enhancement, and I have an Implement Device with Resplendent. Once I reach level 2 in Radiant Armourer, I put Temporal into my pool, and now when I summon either device, they have their own Enhancement, and since I only have one Imbuement int he device pool to choose from, they both get that as well, is that correct?

[Owrtho]

So I'm going to finally be utilizing these rules (After some quick pathfinder conversions) and have run into something a bit confusing.

I'm planning to play a Radiant Armourer (http://tome-of-radiance.wikia.com/wiki/Radiant_Armourer), coming in from Stargazer, but the text of the Armament Effects ability is somewhat confusion. I get that Armament Effects = Imbuements, but i want to know if I'm interpreting it right.

Well, let's see if I can help clear up this confusion. Also seeing as this is from about a week ago hopefully it isn't too late.


From that I'm reading, you have a pool of Imbuements for each type of Armament (Device, Costume, and possibly shield) equal to the Armament Effect Pool. Then for each one of these you summon, you pick Imbuements equal to the Armament Effect Limit. All of this is on top of however many Imbuements you have for you Evoker Level. is that the way it should be?

This is not quite right. The way it should work is you find out how many Imbuements you get prior to factoring in the pool or limit increase. The armament effect limit just increases the number of Imbuements as normal (as PRCs do not increase Imbuements by default). The part where it gets a little tricky is that in addition to selecting a number of Imbuements equal to how many you can apply to your armaments (which is a shared number as normal) you also have your pool, which allows you to pick additional Imbuements beyond that.

As a result, rather than assigning specific Imbuements to your device and costume (and shield if applicable), you instead choose how many Imbuements you will apply to each. Then when you choose Imbuements for your pool (which is equal to the number of Imbuements you can apply to everything plus the number listed in the armament effect pool column of the table for your level) you need to ensure you have at least enough for each type to fill out the number you chose to apply to the given armament type. So say you can apply three Imbuements total, and you decided to go with two for your devices and one for your costume, if your pool is +1 (which would be 4 total) then you need to select 2 device Imbuements and 1 costume Imbuement, while the final Imbuement can be either.

Now, when you summon your device or costume, you choose which of the applicable Imbuements in your pool you apply to it (with the number equal to the type you chose).


Like, I've got a Marksman Device, and my 1 Imbuement on it is Enhancement, and I have an Implement Device with Resplendent. Once I reach level 2 in Radiant Armourer, I put Temporal into my pool, and now when I summon either device, they have their own Enhancement, and since I only have one Imbuement int he device pool to choose from, they both get that as well, is that correct?

So, looking at your description here you seem to have some slight confusion on how the Imbuements work normally with twinned device and radiant arsenal. As a level 5 stargazer with the twinned device and radiant arsenal feats, you have the ability to summon two different devices, and 1 Imbuement. Presumably, you are applying your Imbuement to your devices. However, according to twinned device, each device you summon share Imbuements, meaning they both by default have the same one, even when combined with radiant arsenal to make a different device. Thus a level 5 stargazer would only be able to have enhancement or resplendent shared by both devices.

Upon becoming a level 1 Radiant Armourer however you would gain her armament effect pool. This would allow you to select an additional Imbuement when deciding what Imbuements you want for the day. You still can only apply 1 Imbuement, and presumably you decide again to apply it to your device, except now you don't just choose which one you want. Instead you now decide what Imbuements you want in you armament effect pool. At level 1 you will have an armament effect pool of 2 (the total number of Imbuements you can apply + 1 extra). As you have decided to apply your one Imbuement to your device, you have to select at least 1 device Imbuement (and as you did not select to apply an Imbuement to your costume, there is no point in choosing one of those for your second Imbuement). Thus you decide to select enhancement and resplendent for your two Imbuements in your armament effect pool. Now, whenever you summon any of your devices, you select one Imbuement from your armament effect pool to apply to it. In this case that would be either enhancement or resplendent. So you may at this point summon your devices with the marksman having enhancement and the implement having resplendent. You may also choose to summon them with the reverse, or both one or the other. You may also summon two of one kind of device with different Imbuements from your armament effect pool. Essentially, any time you summon a device you get to choose which one it has.

Now say you hit level 2 of radiant armourer. Your total number of Imbuements goes up by 1, meaning that you can apply 2 to devices, or apply 1 to a device and 1 to your costume (or both to the costume). This also means that you armament effect pool is now 3 (since your base number of Imbuements went up). Say that you decide to apply both Imbuements to your devices when you select Imbuements in the morning. For the most part this will act like the previous level, except you will now be picking 3 Imbuements for your pool of which 2 have to be for devices. Say that in addition to enhancement and resplendent you pick temporal. Now when you summon a device you pick 2 of the 3 Imbuements in your armament effect pool. As before, you may pick any two of the three for any device you summon. Thus at this point you can have your previous marksman device with enhancement and implement device with resplendent, but also put temporal on both, or you could have some other combination (such as resplendent and enhancement on one). However, as you did not select to apply one of your Imbuements to your costume, it will not have any.
Note that when you summon you device, you will need to choose 1 of the 2 Imbuements on it to be the primary one. Normally this does not have an effect, but if you let someone else use the device, they will only benefit from the primary Imbuement.

Now say that you had chosen to apply an Imbuement to your costume in the morning (meaning you apply 1 to your devices and 1 to your costume). Now when you select Imbuements for your armament effect pool you must select at least 1 device Imbuement and 1 costume Imbuement (along with 1 that can be either). Presumably you choose to have two device Imbuements so you can apply different ones to each of you device types, meaning you choose 1 costume Imbuement. So far as summoning devices, it will act like previous level, where each can have 1 Imbuement, and you have 2 options to choose from. However, when you summon your costume, it will also have an Imbuement, however since you only selected one costume Imbuement for your pool, you will not get a choice (had you chosen to have 2 in the pool you would get a choice as with the devices).

You could of course also swap costumes and devices in these examples, I simply went with devices as that is what you noted using. Hopefully this helps explain how the ability works.

owrtho

[Hunter Noventa]

Well, let's see if I can help clear up this confusion. Also seeing as this is from about a week ago hopefully it isn't too late.


Not too late, haven't even hit Radiant Armourer yet, since we're only starting at level 3. So thanks for that. Though it does feel like 'Armament Effects' were changed to Imbuements halfway trough the development when I read the abilities of the Armourer.

So i have my two devices, and the Imbuements are shared across everything, including costumes, I get that.

So the Armament Effect limit just affects the total number of Imbuements I get, that's easy enough. But the pool sort of adds to that, but only to specific armament types? Radiant Armourer 1 Means I have the 1 Imbuement from Stargazer...and then 2 more from the Pool, but I have to assign them specifically between Device/Costume/Shield (When i take blazing aegis).

So at RA1 I go like this- Device 2/ Costume 1

For Devices I choose Enhancement and Resplendent, and for Costumes I choose Weightless. Then I summon my Implement and I can choose to give it Resplendent, and then for my Marksman I choose to give it Enhancement, while my Costume is always stuck with Weightless til I level up more and add more to it's share of the pool.

But basically it expands my Imbuement limit to be on a per-armament basis, but all the Imbuements have to be drawn from the respective pools, which I can adjust every morning basically. I think I get it now.

[Owrtho]

Not too late, haven't even hit Radiant Armourer yet, since we're only starting at level 3. So thanks for that. Though it does feel like 'Armament Effects' were changed to Imbuements halfway trough the development when I read the abilities of the Armourer.

Depending on how you mean that could be considered correct. Armament Effects was the original term, though it mentioned them being called imbuements in the description of what armament effects were (they just used the term armament effects everywhere else to refer to them). Some time after I originally made the Radiant Armourer, armaments were overhauled. After initially noting some potential changes that could be done to update it, I went and updated the class to the new system. It was when the forum update resulted in the old tables breaking that NineThePuma suggested using Imbuements as the primary term for Armament Effects when reposting the Radiant Armourer with a fixed table.


So i have my two devices, and the Imbuements are shared across everything, including costumes, I get that.

This is correct.


So the Armament Effect limit just affects the total number of Imbuements I get, that's easy enough. But the pool sort of adds to that, but only to specific armament types? Radiant Armourer 1 Means I have the 1 Imbuement from Stargazer...and then 2 more from the Pool, but I have to assign them specifically between Device/Costume/Shield (When i take blazing aegis).

This is incorrect. The pool is across everything like normal Imbuements. Rather than trying to think of the pool as something separate from normal Imbuements, your pool is all the Imbuements you have prepared, and the normal number is how many of those prepared Imbuements you may use for a given armament (which needs to be divided between armament types). Neither the pool nor your total amount is per type of armament on the table. Thus radiant armourer 1 means you have 1 Imbuement from the stargazer, and your pool is one larger than that, for 2 total. The 1 imbuement you get from star gazer is counted as a part of that, as you no longer apply Imbuements the way other Evokers do. The 1 from stargazer (along with later boosts) is how many Imbuements you can apply, while the pool is how many you have to choose from when applying them. For a normal Evoker these numbers are the same, meaning that they choose to have x number of Imbuements for their device, and y number for their costume, where x + y is their total number of Imbuements they can apply, before then choosing x device effects and y costume effects which any devices or costumes will have respectively which is equal to the number of Imbuements in their pool. A radiant armourer however has a larger pool. So while they still choose to apply x Imbuements to their device and y to their costume, when choosing Imbuements for their pool they get z extra for a total pool of x + y + z. They then select x of the appropriate Imbuements in their pool to apply to any device they make upon making it, and y Imbuements of the appropriate type to apply to any costume they make.


So at RA1 I go like this- Device 2/ Costume 1

No, as noted above you have 1 Imbuement to apply across all armaments, but can choose between 2 options when making it.


For Devices I choose Enhancement and Resplendent, and for Costumes I choose Weightless. Then I summon my Implement and I can choose to give it Resplendent, and then for my Marksman I choose to give it Enhancement, while my Costume is always stuck with Weightless til I level up more and add more to it's share of the pool.

As I noted above, the pool is not per armament type, and it does not increase how many armaments you may apply across everything. Even if you were to use one of the two Imbuements in your pool for a costume effect after deciding to apply your Imbuement to your device, it would mean you would have 1 Imbuement you could apply to your device (meaning all of them would have the same one), and a costume effect you couldn't use in your pool as you do not have any Imbuements applied to your costume.


But basically it expands my Imbuement limit to be on a per-armament basis, but all the Imbuements have to be drawn from the respective pools, which I can adjust every morning basically. I think I get it now.

This is not correct, as noted above. Hopefully this time I have explained it better. You may also want to take another look at my breakdown of selecting Imbuements for a stargazer, and the first two levels of Radiant Armourer in my previous post.

owrtho

[Hunter Noventa]

This is not correct, as noted above. Hopefully this time I have explained it better. You may also want to take another look at my breakdown of selecting Imbuements for a stargazer, and the first two levels of Radiant Armourer in my previous post.

owrtho

Okay let's try again. At Stargazer 1 I have a single Imbuement, period. It goes either on my devices (Both of them, in the case of Twinned device), or on my costume. I don't have one for each. I think we established that I got that much.

When I reach RA1, I still have the one Imbuement from Stargazer, which becomes part of my pool, and I add 1 to that from RA. This pool of two has to be spread across both my device and costume, so I need to pick one of each, i.e. Enhancement and Weightless. But since I can still only apply one Imbuement, my limit effectively being 1 until second level, I still only get Enhancement OR Weightless. but the Enhancement works for all devices instead of one?


Oh oh oh I think I get it. Normally, you can only select Imbuements once per day with a five-minute ritual when you prepare Illuminations. However as a Radiant Armourer, you can swap between the ones in your pool every time you summon your Devices or Costumes. If I put, as above, Enhancement and Weightless into my pool, I could choose to apply Enhancement when summoning my devices for one encounter, in which case they would all have it, and then in another encounter, assuming I dismiss thing in between, I could instead apply Weightless to my costume. And once my Armament Effect Limit goes up at RA2, I could apply Enhancement and Weightless at the same time, since my limit is 2 and both are in my pool.

[Owrtho]

Closer this time, but still a little off.


When I reach RA1, I still have the one Imbuement from Stargazer, which becomes part of my pool, and I add 1 to that from RA. This pool of two has to be spread across both my device and costume, so I need to pick one of each, i.e. Enhancement and Weightless. But since I can still only apply one Imbuement, my limit effectively being 1 until second level, I still only get Enhancement OR Weightless. but the Enhancement works for all devices instead of one?

The main error your making here is while the pool is shared between both devices and costumes, you do not need to pick one of each. The only requirement on picking them is that when you decided what you would apply your 1 Imbuement (or more at later levels) to before choosing the ones in your pool, must have an option among those in your pool. Thus if you decide to use your Imbuement for your device, you have to pick a device effect for at least 1 of your 2 options in the pool, while the other can be either a device effect or costume effect. In turn if you pick to apply your Imbuement to your costume for the day, one of the choices in your pool has to be a costume effect, but the other can again be either a device effect or a costume effect. When you have the option to apply two Imbuement a day, you could choose to have a device and a costume Imbuement. If you did you would need both a device effect and a costume effect in your pool, but could still freely choose what other Imbuements you select from either category for remaining slots. If instead you decided to put both of your Imbuements on your device, you would need to have two device effects in your pool, while the remaining slot(s) could be either device effects or costume effects as you choose. If you chose to put both Imbuements on your costume, you would need to have two costume effects in your pool, while the remaining slot(s) could be either device effects or costume effects as you choose. This in turn scales up as you get the option to apply more Imbuements, meaning your pool needs to have effects in it that let it fill out the chosen assignment of Imbuements, but any past that may be whatever you want.

That said, to answer your question your device effects could be applied to all devices you summon. However a you can at level 1 RA choose to have two different device effects in your pool, you may choose to summon them with either of the two device effects (though only 1 for any given device at that level), and may have as many as you can make using either of the two device effects.


Oh oh oh I think I get it. Normally, you can only select Imbuements once per day with a five-minute ritual when you prepare Illuminations. However as a Radiant Armourer, you can swap between the ones in your pool every time you summon your Devices or Costumes. If I put, as above, Enhancement and Weightless into my pool, I could choose to apply Enhancement when summoning my devices for one encounter, in which case they would all have it, and then in another encounter, assuming I dismiss thing in between, I could instead apply Weightless to my costume. And once my Armament Effect Limit goes up at RA2, I could apply Enhancement and Weightless at the same time, since my limit is 2 and both are in my pool.

This misunderstanding seems mostly based on the previous one. While partially correct (the radiant armourer can swap between Imbuements so long as they are in the pool), it overlooks that the radiant armour still needs to decide if Imbuements will be applied to the device or costume during the ritual and cannot change that freely. However as the pool can contain extra Imbuements of the type that the Imbuements are to be applied to, it can swap those out as needed, and could even use multiple ones in the same encounter.

Also keep in mind that when your Armament Effect Limit goes up at RA2, this will also increase the size of your pool, since the pool, since the number on the table is how many extra Imbuements you can have in the pool on top of those you from just being able to apply more Imbuements. Specifically, for a Star Gazer entering the class as soon as possible, the Imbuements they can apply/size of their pool for each level would be:

Level
Usable
Imbuements
Imbuments
In Pool

0
1
1

1
1
2

2
2
3

3
2
3

4
2
4

5
3
5

6
3
5

7
3
6

8
3
6

9
4
7

10
4
8


owrtho

[sreservoir]

Oh oh oh I think I get it. Normally, you can only select Imbuements once per day with a five-minute ritual when you prepare Illuminations.

didn't read the rest but, note that there's no once-per-day restriction on illumination prep. can be done whenever you have five minutes.

[Hunter Noventa]

That said, to answer your question your device effects could be applied to all devices you summon. However a you can at level 1 RA choose to have two different device effects in your pool, you may choose to summon them with either of the two device effects (though only 1 for any given device at that level), and may have as many as you can make using either of the two device effects.

This misunderstanding seems mostly based on the previous one. While partially correct (the radiant armourer can swap between Imbuements so long as they are in the pool), it overlooks that the radiant armour still needs to decide if Imbuements will be applied to the device or costume during the ritual and cannot change that freely. However as the pool can contain extra Imbuements of the type that the Imbuements are to be applied to, it can swap those out as needed, and could even use multiple ones in the same encounter.


So in other words...I could have two devices out, and if I put Enhancement and Resplendent into the pool, I could apply Enhancement to one device, and Resplendent to the other.

Once I have 2 usable Imbuements, I can split them between my devices and costume. So for example at the point that I have 2 usable, and 3 in the pool. I choose to give my devices one Imbuement, but if I have Resplendent and Enhancement in the pool, i can choose either for either device as above, and with the other Imbuement for Costumes, and Weightless in the pool, I can pick that, but only that since it's the only costume Imbuement in the pool?


didn't read the rest but, note that there's no once-per-day restriction on illumination prep. can be done whenever you have five minutes.

Ah yeah, I misread because it says you CAN do it as a part of the ritual to prepare illuminations, but I read that you HAVE to.

[Owrtho]

So in other words...I could have two devices out, and if I put Enhancement and Resplendent into the pool, I could apply Enhancement to one device, and Resplendent to the other.

Once I have 2 usable Imbuements, I can split them between my devices and costume. So for example at the point that I have 2 usable, and 3 in the pool. I choose to give my devices one Imbuement, but if I have Resplendent and Enhancement in the pool, i can choose either for either device as above, and with the other Imbuement for Costumes, and Weightless in the pool, I can pick that, but only that since it's the only costume Imbuement in the pool?

This would be correct.

owrtho

[Hunter Noventa]

This would be correct.

owrtho

Excellent, that'll be helpful. Thanks for clearing it up!

[Magikeeper]

Question (I hope this hasn't been asked already): Can you enchant an aura costume? It doesn't count as armor, and has no physical manifestation?

[Ilorin Lorati]

It's not an object, so presumably not. You would enchant whatever clothing you have, instead.

[Magikeeper]

Hrm, I don't see an FAQ. Apologies if these questions have already been asked:

> Does the Resolve foundation heal undead? It doesn't say anything about using positive energy...

> When smiting after an enemy triggers a challenge illumination, do you have to wait until your turn? Or can you somehow perform the free action during something else's turn? It seems like the intent is the former, since the base duration is 1 round and would thus be mostly unusable without augmenting it if you have to wait until your next turn?

> Can an illumination with the Imbue shape component augment a stance/natural attack/etc? What is the RAI? (RAW-wise I'm not sure improved unarmed strikes really count as a weapon one is "wielding", but I have yet to find a source to outright confirm/deny that.) Edit - Haste uses a similar wording, and people usually let that benefit monks so I guess there IS precedent.

> Does the Pulses shape, if "allies" is chosen, effect the evoker as well? I'm assuming yes.

Edit - I just realized that the stance feature does not have the monk line allowing their attack to count as a natural weapon for the purposes of spells/effects that improve it. Which is important, because unarmed strikes otherwise don't count as natural weapons for any purpose whatsoever (nor do they count as manufactured). Also, provoking the AoO is based on whether not you are unarmed - so the line saying they are still unarmed means they provoke an AoO every time they attack with their stance. Granting Improved unarmed strike doesn't change that - Improved Unarmed Strike only avoids the AoO by making them count as armed, so removing that benefit.. removes that benefit.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

On Crafting Illuminiations... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258654-Tome-of-Radiance-Mastering-the-Power-of-Love-and-Justice&p=14062768&viewfull=1#post14062768)
To craft an illumination, one must select a base illumination type (Blast, Barrier, or Surge), a Foundation component to determine the base effect, and must purchase at least one rank in a Shape component to determine the illumination's basic targeting. It is impossible for any illumination to possess more than one Shape or Foundation component. If the evoker wishes, she may then add as many Secondary components as she can budget into her mote limit.
I'm very confused by this on a number of levels.

First, how does the crafting of an illumination impact your mote pool? On one hand, this block of text makes it sound like you have to pay for it from your mote pool, but then your mote pool, which equals your evoker level x 2, refreshes to full at the start of every turn with no mention of the pool being lowered due to purchased illuminations. So which is correct?

Your mote pool is only used as a limit for how powerful your crafted illuminations can be, but crafting an illumination has no impact on your functional mote pool each turn.
Your mote pool is lowered by the illuminations you have crafted, limiting how many motes you have available each turn.
Something else entirely.
In reference to the first point and assuming it's accurate, how would that impact classes that have more available illuminations but the same mote pool? Would that mean that a Champion's individual illuminations are more powerful than a Stargazers simply because they have fewer illuminations to cram their (evoker level x 2) motes into? If not accurate, there's obviously no reason to answer these two questions. :D

Second, if an illumination cannot have more than one Shape or Foundation component, why is one rank in a Shape component required? Doesn't that mean that you can never have a Foundation component? Or are you allowed a maximum of one of each instead?

For anyone who does so, thank you in advance for answering these two questions. I really like the concept of this subset of rules, I'm just really confused about how some of it works. I read over the text several times, but didn't have the fortitude to scounrge through 30-something pages of posts looking to see if any of them were already asked. :)

[AmberVael]

I'm very confused by this on a number of levels.

First, how does the crafting of an illumination impact your mote pool? On one hand, this block of text makes it sound like you have to pay for it from your mote pool, but then your mote pool, which equals your evoker level x 2, refreshes to full at the start of every turn with no mention of the pool being lowered due to purchased illuminations. So which is correct?

Your mote pool is used as a limit for how powerful your crafted illuminations can be, but crafting an illumination has no impact on your functional mote pool each turn.
Your mote pool is lowered by the illuminations you have crafted, limiting how many motes you have available each turn.
Something else entirely.
The first option. Your mote pool only determines how powerful they can be, and how much you can use each turn. Your mote pool is not lowered by the illuminations you know. Think of motes as reusable power points- you spend them when you activate the illumination.


Second, if an illumination cannot have more than one Shape or Foundation component, why is one rank in a Shape component required? Doesn't that mean that you can never have a Foundation component? Or are you allowed a maximum of one of each instead?
Its one each. And you have to have a shape otherwise you can't actually target anything. You automatically get a foundation (to determine the basic effect) and you must invest into a shape (to determine target).

[jamieth]

It is 1; crafted illuminations don't affect your mote pool in any way, you have (evoker level x 2) motes every turn (though some of them might be binded into your costume of soulforge feats, but that's a differemt ussie entirely)

On the second point, it is one each: One shape, no more than one Foundation and as many Secondaris as you want and can afford with the limitation of (total cost <= evoker level)

Glad to help!

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Thank you for the quick replies! I only need clarification on more thing.

When crafting your illuminations, is your mote pool the limit for each illumination, or all of the illuminations you know? Say you're a level 10 Stargazer. You know 8 illuminations, and your mote pool is 20. How powerful are each of your illuminations?

[AmberVael]

Each illumination. So each of your illuminations known can have a cost of up to 10 motes.

A magical girl may not craft any illumination with a cost greater than her evoker level in motes.
So I guess saying mote pool limits it is not strictly accurate (I was thinking in terms of half mote pool, but), but how you use your motes each turn is of course a concern to keep in mind when crafting illuminations.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Awesome, thank you.

And yes, I think it'd be a lot more intuitive if it simply stated that each of your illuminations can have a number of points equal to your evoker level. Using the term "motes" for both crafting them and the pool for using them is rather confusing. :)

[AmberVael]

The thing is, its not ever using the same term for two different things. Its always referring to the same mechanic- the points you spend to activate the power. The mote cost of an component is how many motes it will add to the mote cost to activate your entire illumination. Its never saying you spend motes to craft the illumination, its letting you know what the final cost to activate the power will be, and since you have a limit on how high that final mote cost can be, its important to keep it in mind while making your illuminations.

[jamieth]

I personally don't see anything confusing, but then I was here from the beginning :-)

One more thing: it is possible to evoke several illuminations of the same type in a single turn (two barriers with two move actions, or Surge Blast with a swift action and another Blast with a standert one, for example), but in that case their total cost must be <= evokel level. (So, a Stargazer 10 can spend her 20 motes to evoke a 10-mote Surge and a 10-mote Blast in one round, but not two Blasts of 10 motes each.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

The thing is, its not ever using the same term for two different things. Its always referring to the same mechanic- the points you spend to activate the power. The mote cost of an component is how many motes it will add to the mote cost to activate your entire illumination. Its never saying you spend motes to craft the illumination, its letting you know what the final cost to activate the power will be, and since you have a limit on how high that final mote cost can be, its important to keep it in mind while making your illuminations.
So, wait. Now I'm completely befuddled again.

Do you craft your illuminations on the fly then? What's the point of the number of illuminations listed in the class entries? What do I actually write down on my character sheet?

[AmberVael]

Uh, no. I never said anything about making illuminations on the fly.

[jamieth]

You craft your illuminations when gaining a level, and you write all the components included and the number of ranks in each, as well as the total costr for Illumination (which, by the way, you can set higher than the sunm of the components' costs). Then, you pay that cost out of your pool every time you use the illumination.

upd: you can look for the (sadly unfinished) section of the Iconics on the wiki for the examples of writing up the Illuminations: http://tome-of-radiance.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_of_Radiance_Wiki

[Dr. Funkenstein]

You craft your illuminations when gaining a level, and you write all the components included and the number of ranks in each, as well as the total costr for Illumination (which, by the way, you can set higher than the sunm of the components' costs). Then, you pay that cost out of your pool every time you use the illumination.

upd: you can look for the (sadly unfinished) section of the Iconics on the wiki for the examples of writing up the Illuminations: http://tome-of-radiance.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_of_Radiance_Wiki
Thank you SO much for that!


Uh, no. I never said anything about making illuminations on the fly.
The thing is, its not ever using the same term for two different things. Its always referring to the same mechanic- the points you spend to activate the power. The mote cost of an component is how many motes it will add to the mote cost to activate your entire illumination. Its never saying you spend motes to craft the illumination, its letting you know what the final cost to activate the power will be, and since you have a limit on how high that final mote cost can be, its important to keep it in mind while making your illuminations.
You kind of are with that response. From what I've puzzled together from the replies so far, your mote pool has no apparent impact on your crafted illuminations; you have (evoker level) points to build each of your illuminations, and those points are completely separate from the mote pool you gain each turn. Your mote pool never actually comes into the equation except for using the same term for an unrelated mechanic; the only way they're connected is that the final cost of the crafted illumination determines how many motes you spend each time you evoke the illumination.

Unless, of course, I'm still not getting it.

[jamieth]

The easy way to think of it is, in my experience, to mentally change "motes" to "mana". You craft your illuminations on level up, determining the mana cost for them, then you pay that much mana points every ti,e you actualluy caast a spell.

[AmberVael]

See, the thing is that you're looking at it as if you have a pool of points to build illuminations with. I'm trying to point out that you're adding in something or looking at it in a weird way, because that's not what is going on (even if you can functionally look at it that way and be fine).
Let me break it down the entire system piece by piece to make it clear and simple as possible.


As an evoker (someone who uses illuminations), you have a certain number illuminations known. As a first level Champion, for example, you have four known.

For each illumination known, you pick one foundation component, one shape component, and any number of secondary components (or none at all). Once chosen, these components are set until you gain a level (at which point you may remake all of your illuminations known).

Each component has an associated mote cost. When you add all your components together, the total mote cost is how many motes you pay out of your pool (the pool which refreshes each turn) when activating the power.

An illumination may not have a total mote cost of more than your evoker level.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

See, the thing is that you're looking at it as if you have a pool of points to build illuminations with. I'm trying to point out that you're adding in something or looking at it in a weird way, because that's not what is going on (even if you can functionally look at it that way and be fine).
Let me break it down the entire system piece by piece to make it clear and simple as possible.


As an evoker (someone who uses illuminations), you have a certain number illuminations known. As a first level Champion, for example, you have four known.

For each illumination known, you pick one foundation component, one shape component, and any number of secondary components (or none at all). Once chosen, these components are set until you gain a level (at which point you may remake all of your illuminations known).

Each component has an associated mote cost. When you add all your components together, the total mote cost is how many motes you pay out of your pool (the pool which refreshes each turn) when activating the power.

An illumination may not have a total mote cost of more than your evoker level.
Nah, I don't think I'm looking at it weird. You're just making assumptions that the text never actually states directly.

You do, by your own admission, have a limited number of points to work with for each illumination you craft at each level; your evoker level. Not your mote pool, your evoker level. In fact, it has nothing to do with your mote pool; it doesn't lower or even affect your mote pool in any way, and the limit is much lower than the pool itself.

You then use those points (call it a limit if you prefer) to craft your illuminations, with the final cost equating to the number of motes required to activate it.

How is that the same mechanic? There's no point in calling the points/limit used to craft illumination motes except at the very end, and then the term used in a completely different way (describing an activation cost, not a construction cost). To use some hyperbole, it's equivalent to saying you have 1,000,000,000 points available to construct an ability, but you actually only have 5 points to construct it -- the 1,000,000,000 points is utterly meaningless as a result, and there's no reason to even refer to it.

Regardless, now that I think I understand, I won't continue to clutter the thread anymore than I already have. :)

[sreservoir]

Nah, I don't think I'm looking at it weird. You're just making assumptions that the text never actually states directly.


Illuminations: Infused as they are with the power of light, a stargazer is capable of crafting and calling upon powerful manifestations of radiant energy known as Illuminations. A stargazer knows a fixed number of illuminations, and may change any number of her known illuminations freely each time she gains a level in this class. To use her known illuminations, a stargazer must first prepare them – preparing illuminations is a simple process requiring five minutes of introspection, weapons drills, or some other mentally relaxing activity. Once her preparation is complete, the stargazer may choose a number of her known illuminations to ready. Readied illuminations remain readied until the stargazer prepares new ones.

this is the stargazer primary illuminations known mechanic. champions have vastly similar one (they don't prepare), empaths have their strange one. this clarifies that illuminations known are limited by the class table and they can be changed at level up (and no other means for changing them is provided nor excluded here).


Illuminations are an evoker’s greatest power – the ability to harness the awesome energies of light and channel them into mystical effects. This power presents itself to each individual differently, and as such, it is impossible to compile a singular list of illuminations. Instead, a magical girl must feel out her own powers as she develops them, crafting a suite of abilities unique to her.


When a magical girl learns new illuminations, she does not select them from a list, but rather crafts them from a wide array of components. Each illumination begins as one of three base effects, which an evoker can enhance with a wide array of components. Every component has an associated mote cost, and many allow that mote cost to be raised in exchange for more powerful effects. The final cost of an illumination is equal to the total cost of its base effect added to the cost of its components. A magical girl may not craft any illumination with a cost greater than her evoker level in motes. While certain components suggest particular manifestations, the cosmetic aspects of an illumintion are entirely up to the evoker crafting it - a functionally identical illumination might manifest as a javelin of lightning to one and a flurry of shots from conjured rifles to another.

I concede two points of inclarity with terminology. one, it's not clear that "crafting" is the process of selecting illuminations known unless you were paying close attention to that one line which makes the connection. two, the "evoker level in motes" is later called the "mote limit" without definition:


To craft an illumination, one must select a base illumination type (Blast, Barrier, or Surge), a Foundation component to determine the base effect, and must purchase at least one rank in a Shape component to determine the illumination's basic targeting. It is impossible for any illumination to possess more than one Shape or Foundation component. If the evoker wishes, she may then add as many Secondary components as she can budget into her mote limit. Foundation components scale automatically, at varying rates, with the cost of an illumination. All other components increase the illumination's mote cost. If she wishes, an evoker can independently raise an illumination's mote cost without adding any additional components or ranks. Further, it is impossible to craft or evoke any illumination with a cost of less than 1m. Any illumination with a lower mote cost must either select components or manually raise its cost until it reaches a positive value.

[aside: personally I think it's obvious that the disjunction is above D i.e. "more than one Shape component or more than one Foundation component" rather than "more than one component which is a Shape component or is a Foundation component" from the fact that both are required. it almost certainly wouldn't do harm to write it out in full, but I'm mildly puzzled that you'd think a major category of components to be entirely unusable. if nothing else, that clearly violates usual expectations of intent.]

"mote limit" refers to the evoker level upper bound per illumination restriction, though I can see how you'd conflate that with the mote pool if you weren't aware of the former.


An evoker’s Illuminations are powered by Motes of radiant energy. Such power is almost inexhaustible, but it does have limits. An evoker’s Mote Pool is equal to [Evoker Level * 2]. An evoker’s mote pool refreshes at the beginning of each of her turns, restoring itself to its full value.

... where the per-turn mote pool is called "limit", though that particular line is essentially non-mechanical. fwiw, the mechanic of having a per-effect limit in addition to a larger pool is, I believe, basically ported from psionics.

there is in fact one section which p clearly connects "mote limit" with the evoker level bound rather than the mote pool, though it is admittedly obscure:


Complex Formula (Su): A stargazer understands the workings of her power in ways other evokers could only dream of, coaxing their inner light into incredible displays of power. At 1st level, the stargazer may craft a single illumination as a complex formula, independent of her normal illuminations known. When evoking this illumination, the stargazer gains an effective +1 increase to evoker level for all purposes, and the illumination may be crafted using this increased evoker level for the purpose of determining mote limits. Any mote cost above the stargazer’s unmodified evoker level is paid for by this ability – she receives the full effect of the illumination, but will never pay a number of motes greater than her unmodified evoker level. If a complex formula is used to create a Companion illumination, that companion will automatically dismiss itself at the end of the stargazer's next turn. A stargazer may use her complex formula once per encounter. If a stargazer wishes, rather than evoking one of her complex formulas, she may expend one use of her complex formula to evoke any illumination she knows, even if it is not readied.

it is strongly implied here that "mote limits" is not only determined according to evoker level, but normally bounded to exactly the unmodified evoker level.


Regardless of the number of motes or actions available, an evoker may only use spend a number of motes up to her evoker level on illuminations of a given base type (Blasts, Barriers, and Surges) in a round.

this line does not technically specify the mote limit but is very suggestive—illuminations exceeding the evoker level bound cannot be used without somehow temporarily raising evoker level.


I'm very confused by this on a number of levels.

First, how does the crafting of an illumination impact your mote pool? On one hand, this block of text makes it sound like you have to pay for it from your mote pool, but then your mote pool, which equals your evoker level x 2, refreshes to full at the start of every turn with no mention of the pool being lowered due to purchased illuminations. So which is correct?

Your mote pool is only used as a limit for how powerful your crafted illuminations can be, but crafting an illumination has no impact on your functional mote pool each turn.
Your mote pool is lowered by the illuminations you have crafted, limiting how many motes you have available each turn.
Something else entirely.
In reference to the first point and assuming it's accurate, how would that impact classes that have more available illuminations but the same mote pool? Would that mean that a Champion's individual illuminations are more powerful than a Stargazers simply because they have fewer illuminations to cram their (evoker level x 2) motes into? If not accurate, there's obviously no reason to answer these two questions. :D

Second, if an illumination cannot have more than one Shape or Foundation component, why is one rank in a Shape component required? Doesn't that mean that you can never have a Foundation component? Or are you allowed a maximum of one of each instead?

For anyone who does so, thank you in advance for answering these two questions. I really like the concept of this subset of rules, I'm just really confused about how some of it works. I read over the text several times, but didn't have the fortitude to scounrge through 30-something pages of posts looking to see if any of them were already asked. :)

note that "mote pool" is a defined term:


An evoker’s Illuminations are powered by Motes of radiant energy. Such power is almost inexhaustible, but it does have limits. An evoker’s Mote Pool is equal to [Evoker Level * 2]. An evoker’s mote pool refreshes at the beginning of each of her turns, restoring itself to its full value.

mote limit is less clearly defined, but it is not the same term, which is what you seem to be overlooking.


You do, by your own admission, have a limited number of points to work with for each illumination you craft at each level; your evoker level. Not your mote pool, your evoker level. In fact, it has nothing to do with your mote pool; it doesn't lower or even affect your mote pool in any way, and the limit is much lower than the pool itself.

You then use those points (call it a limit if you prefer) to craft your illuminations, with the final cost equating to the number of motes required to activate it.

How is that the same mechanic? There's no point in calling the points/limit used to craft illumination motes except at the very end, and then the term used in a completely different way (describing an activation cost, not a construction cost). To use some hyperbole, it's equivalent to saying you have 1,000,000,000 points available to construct an ability, but you actually only have 5 points to construct it -- the 1,000,000,000 points is utterly meaningless as a result, and there's no reason to even refer to it.

Regardless, now that I think I understand, I won't continue to clutter the thread anymore than I already have. :)

anyway, there is no basis for inferring that individual illuminations deduct from any sort of common pool, especially since that is, in fact, not true. it is, indeed, bounded by evoker level, explicitly once and implicitly twice, not necessarily in the most obvious places but two of those are in the illuminations section which you're kind of expected to have read.

these limits the same mechanic and nobody is saying otherwise. that is why they have different terms. what is the same mechanic is the notion of a "mote", which is what illuminations are measured in. and no, your "hyperbole" is not accurate because 2×EL motes is a very salient restriction: you have three potential illumination actions per turn, each of which can consume up to EL motes, and on top of that some number of imbuements/armament effects (I think it changed but the terminology wasn't applied consistently here) which means your per-turn mote consumption could easily run well beyond your mote pool. and this is both intended and necessary.

and also, since I'm a big fan of "read through the mechanics and sanity-check them" principle:


LevelBase Attack BonusFort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSpecialIlluminations KnownImbuements1st+1+0+2+2Radiant Armaments, Merciful41

LevelBase Attack BonusFort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSpecialIlluminations KnownIlluminations ReadiedImbuements1st+0+0+0+2Radiant Armaments, Merciful, Complex Formula (1, +1)641

LevelBase Attack BonusPoor Saves*Good Saves*SpecialPersona CapacityPersonas KnownInnate IlluminationsImbuements1st+0+0+2Radiant Armaments, Merciful, Manifest Persona (Least Aspects)2211

Further, it is impossible to craft or evoke any illumination with a cost of less than 1m. Any illumination with a lower mote cost must either select components or manually raise its cost until it reaches a positive value.

An evoker’s Mote Pool is equal to [Evoker Level * 2].

I don't think there's any way to infer a

[Morcleon]

A bit of confusion here about barriers:

A barrier augmented with this effect may not be placed on a targeted creature - it must be placed on a location.

This quote implies that there are barrier shapes that can target creatures. However, none of the existing barrier shapes (strongholds, borders, dominions, ramparts) do such a thing, and all target locations. Is this a holdover from a previous version, a typo, or did I miss something?

[jamieth]

A holdover, as far as i'm aware, but also a potential expansion space; nothing stops one from homebrewing a, for example, Aura barrier shape.
In the same vein, there is no way to craft the illumination with zero or negative cost from currently existing components, but the rules still explicitely mention that if you do, you'll have to either dd components or increase the cost until its at least 1 mote.

[Morcleon]

A holdover, as far as i'm aware, but also a potential expansion space; nothing stops one from homebrewing a, for example, Aura barrier shape.
In the same vein, there is no way to craft the illumination with zero or negative cost from currently existing components, but the rules still explicitely mention that if you do, you'll have to either dd components or increase the cost until its at least 1 mote.

Ah, okay.

There is, actually. If you make a Blast with any Foundation and 1 rank in Cascades, it's technically 0 cost.

[jamieth]

Right, my mistake; negative costs are definitely impossible, though :-)

[Dr. Funkenstein]

...and no, your "hyperbole" is not accurate because 2×EL motes is a very salient restriction:
And it has nothing at all to do with the crafting of illuminations. It doesn't matter if your mote pool is 2×EL or 100×EL; your pool for crafting illuminations is equal to your evoker level, period, end of sentence. Your pool literally -- and yes, I am using that term correctly -- has nothing to do with crafting illuminations. Yet it keeps coming up over and over again, making it a very confusing read unless you're already familiar with the concepts.

[Morcleon]

And it has nothing at all to do with the crafting of illuminations. It doesn't matter if your mote pool is 2×EL or 100×EL; your pool for crafting illuminations is equal to your evoker level, period, end of sentence. Your pool literally -- and yes, I am using that term correctly -- has nothing to do with crafting illuminations. Yet it keeps coming up over and over again, making it a very confusing read unless you're already familiar with the concepts.

There is no pool for crafting illuminations. You select components, each of which has a mote cost associated with it. Once you add up all the individual mote costs, you get the final mote cost required to evoke that illumination, which is a maximum of your evoker level.

[sreservoir]

And it has nothing at all to do with the crafting of illuminations. It doesn't matter if your mote pool is 2×EL or 100×EL; your pool for crafting illuminations is equal to your evoker level, period, end of sentence. Your pool literally -- and yes, I am using that term correctly -- has nothing to do with crafting illuminations. Yet it keeps coming up over and over again, making it a very confusing read unless you're already familiar with the concepts.

your mote pool literally has nothing to do with crafting illuminations in the most literal sense: those letters do not even cooccur in the same paragraph with any description of crafting illuminations. frankly I don't see where confusion would arise unless you flat-out didn't read the illuminations section, which, you know, is the primary source of information about illuminations.

the evoker level upper bound of mote cost for a single illumination is related to your mote pool only insofar as they are measured in the same units. they are separate limits with separate terminology. if you insist on conflating them you will of course confuse yourself.

[Qwertystop]

The only limit on crafting illuminations is the maximum cost (besides the limits set by class+feats on what components you know). There's no other pool that's used for illumination crafting. You have a maximum cost, in motes. That's not a pool. It is a "limited amount of points to work with" in that you are limited by it and it is measured in motes (which can be considered to be a sort of points), but you don't spend anything on crafting illuminations.

Separately from this, you have a mote pool, which is the amount of motes you may spend per round.

[Magikeeper]

Aww, no answers.

I have two more comments, however:

The Overlimit feat still refers to the "Limit Form" class feature. Limit Form was replaced by Limit Boost, but it doesn't look like the feat itself was updated (or if how it would work w/simply replacing the ability names is the intended effect; I never read the limit form class feature).

And speaking of limit boost, is there any reason why they can't simply be per encounter? As it stands now a champion must refresh their limit boosts and cartridges with separate 5-minute rituals, so 10 minutes total after each fight. I think they used to both be refreshed with the same ritual before Champions no longer had to ready illuminations.

EDIT: I have a third comment after all: Font of life is (Ex). The type transformation at level 20 is at least supposed to be (Ex) based on the responses I got the last time I asked about that. Why isn't force of personality, which uses the same fluff as font and such, extraordinary? 6th level is past merely dipping into the class to pick up the power, and Champions already get hit hard by antimagic fields and dead magic zones.

[sreservoir]

Hrm, I don't see an FAQ. Apologies if these questions have already been asked:

> Does the Resolve foundation heal undead? It doesn't say anything about using positive energy...

no reason it shouldn't.

fwiw positive energy doesn't technically antiheal undead, either—even the positive energy plane grants fast healing to undead and all that; that's actually specifically a property of the most common healing spells. (this is a common, often implicit, and probably reasonable houserule.)

resolve foundation fluff doesn't really seem like undead shouldn't benefit, either, though.


> When smiting after an enemy triggers a challenge illumination, do you have to wait until your turn? Or can you somehow perform the free action during something else's turn? It seems like the intent is the former, since the base duration is 1 round and would thus be mostly unusable without augmenting it if you have to wait until your next turn?

it explicitly lasts until the end of your next turn, so you can take the action on your next turn. (and I guess if they shut you down before your turn, you don't get to follow up on that challenge.)

[Morcleon]

Breath [Champion, Empath, Stargazer]
[Mote Cost: 3m/rank]
Breath is life, and there is no breath greater than the winds that sweep the world. With an illumination wielding this component, a magical girl can rouse the winds to her her command, conducting them as a maestro might lead a symphony. The interior of the barrier is subjected to Moderate Wind, blowing in a direction of the evoker's choosing. For each rank of this component beyond the first, the severity of the wind force increases by one step.

In regards to the direction of the wind, would it be possible to make the direction be "inward" for a strongholds shape, essentially creating a vortex effect and trapping anyone small enough who failed their save?

Also, assuming that the above is possible, what would happen should this barrier affect a creature larger than the size of the barrier (for example, a 5' radius sphere with tornado force winds against the tarrasque)?

[AncientSpark]

Been recently reading this because someone is bringing this in as homebrew material.

About the Magical Idol's Set the Stage ability, it notes that the ability is activated as long as you are maintaining a bardic performance, but then proceeds to say that as long as the motes are invested, the duration will not end. So is the duration dependent on maintaining a bardic performance or not?

Also, what action is it to invest? It notes that the investing is like imbuement...so is it a swift action to invest? Do you already have to have the barrier up to invest?

[sreservoir]

Been recently reading this because someone is bringing this in as homebrew material.

About the Magical Idol's Set the Stage ability, it notes that the ability is activated as long as you are maintaining a bardic performance, but then proceeds to say that as long as the motes are invested, the duration will not end. So is the duration dependent on maintaining a bardic performance or not?


Set the Stage (Su): For a true performer, all the world is as a stage, awaiting nothing more than a skilled artist to bring it to life. Beginning at 5th level, the magical idol may choose to invest the motes spent on a barrier illumination rather than merely expending them, provided she is currently maintaining a bardic performance. Investing motes into a illumination works exactly as investing motes into a costume, as long as the motes remain invested, the barrier's duration will not end. If the investment ends, the barrier lasts for one additional round.

Finding the motes to invest in this can be tricky, but when it works this offers a very powerful tool for exerting battlefield control, and allows the magical idol to craft her illuminations with less regard for the Ancients component. Unlike most evokers, a magical idol may even find ready reason to keep a compliment of inexpensive barriers on hand, so as to be able to control the battlefield without such heavy investment.

I'm reading this to mean that that the activation (with mote investment) must be while maintaining a performance, but nothing prevents the effect from staying around afterward, you just can't change your mote investments after.


Also, what action is it to invest? It notes that the investing is like imbuement...so is it a swift action to invest? Do you already have to have the barrier up to invest?

"works exactly as investing motes into a costume", so swift action to allocate, free action to withdraw.

[Burpito]

I love this class's flavor a whole lot, and have been wanting to play an magical girl for a while now. Luckily for me, my DM is letting me do a conversion of the Champion for his pathfinder campaign!

I've been thinking a lot about the balance of it all, since I don't really want to be over-powered and make the rest of the party feel inadequate. The Illuminations seem like they give you stupid damage output at early levels. We'll be playing at level three, meaning if I choose a Mighty device (which I have, naturally), use the Oversized Imbuement, then use an Assault blast with the Tremors foundation (boosted to 3 motes) against an enemy with his back to a wall, I'd do 2d12+3d6+strength damage in addition to knocking the guy prone. This is something I could do every round thanks to the regenerating mote pool. The character I have in mind would be sort of a force of nature once she's been cornered or pissed off enough to stop holding back, but this seems a little too nuts.

It looks like it scales way too well, especially compared to the other classes. It has the potential for infinite healing outside of battle, which a level 3 Cleric can't do. It can do 2d6 damage as a touch attack against any two enemies every round, which a level 3 Wizard can't do. It can get bigger damage dice than any Fighter reasonably can. I'm not really sure how this balance works in 3.5 since it's been eons since I've played it, but in Pathfinder it seems pretty broken as it is (barring that my understanding of the way these features work might be flawed).

I've basically been trying to nerf myself without changing the way it scales too much, and the best limitation I've come up with is basically approaching illuminations the same way the high-power stuff in a lot of anime is: you can only evoke illuminations a number of times per-day equal to the number of illuminations know.

I'm curious as to whether or not anyone else has thoughts on this. I'm too big a fan of this character concept to just drop the class for balance reasons.

[Qwertystop]

I love this class's flavor a whole lot, and have been wanting to play an magical girl for a while now. Luckily for me, my DM is letting me do a conversion of the Champion for his pathfinder campaign!

I've been thinking a lot about the balance of it all, since I don't really want to be over-powered and make the rest of the party feel inadequate. The Illuminations seem like they give you stupid damage output at early levels. We'll be playing at level three, meaning if I choose a Mighty device (which I have, naturally), use the Oversized Imbuement, then use an Assault blast with the Tremors foundation (boosted to 3 motes) against an enemy with his back to a wall, I'd do 2d12+3d6+strength damage in addition to knocking the guy prone. This is something I could do every round thanks to the regenerating mote pool. The character I have in mind would be sort of a force of nature once she's been cornered or pissed off enough to stop holding back, but this seems a little too nuts.

It looks like it scales way too well, especially compared to the other classes. It has the potential for infinite healing outside of battle, which a level 3 Cleric can't do. It can do 2d6 damage as a touch attack against any two enemies every round, which a level 3 Wizard can't do. It can get bigger damage dice than any Fighter reasonably can. I'm not really sure how this balance works in 3.5 since it's been eons since I've played it, but in Pathfinder it seems pretty broken as it is (barring that my understanding of the way these features work might be flawed).

I've basically been trying to nerf myself without changing the way it scales too much, and the best limitation I've come up with is basically approaching illuminations the same way the high-power stuff in a lot of anime is: you can only evoke illuminations a number of times per-day equal to the number of illuminations know.

I'm curious as to whether or not anyone else has thoughts on this. I'm too big a fan of this character concept to just drop the class for balance reasons.

Let's see...
Mighty is 1d12, doubled on a full attack if you don't take extra attacks... the rules are vague on using it when your BAB only gives one attack.
Oversized would indeed make that 2d12, so 4d12 if the doubling is allowed.
Assault-Tremors against a wall would then do 1d6 per mote, so 3d6.
And then you add Strength... yeah, that looks about right. Average damage assuming no Mighty-double: 13+10.5+(1.5*STR).

On the other hand... average 3rd-level raging Barbarian attack with Greataxe, for the high low-op core-book damage: 6.5+3+(1.5*STR) (taking the Strength bonus from Rage separately).

So yeah, you're higher. It'll take one hit instead of two for 3rd-level things with decent HP. Of course, if they're not back-to-a-wall, then you have to either use different illuminations (for 3d4 instead of 3d6) or only do 1d6 damage with that part while also moving them out of reach. That takes off 4 to 6 average damage depending on your choice. You lose another 6.5 if you want any Imbuement other than Oversized.

Healing works, true, but is a good bit slower (1d6/level/minute/person). Past the low levels, healing is just going to be done by whoever happens to be holding the Wand of Lesser Vigor or wearing the Belt of Healing or whatever - it's not efficient to use spell slots on it, and the items are cheap - but at the start, having it free is definitely a big deal.

Unsure about the Wizard comparison - too many spells to look through and I don't play blaster-casters much, so I'd be too likely to look at entirely the wrong spells.

[Burpito]

Unsure about the Wizard comparison - too many spells to look through and I don't play blaster-casters much, so I'd be too likely to look at entirely the wrong spells.

I've never actually played a caster in pathfinder myself, but I've combed through the spells quite a bit. The evocation school seems to be what you'd go for if you wanted raw DPS, which means if you wanted massive damage as a level 3 wizard, you'd probably pick something like Scorching Ray (4d6) or Spontaneous Immolation (3d6, target catches fire). These are really good for damage output, but can only be done once per day. Taking into account bonus spells, they could do it one additional time per day, max. I'm not sure to what extent high-level wizards get their damage boosted, especially taking into account metamagic feats and whatnot, but I am aware it gets pretty absurd, so evokers may be comparable at that point.

This is where my main issue with evokers come into play. Evokers can get similar levels of damage delivered in a similar fashion, but that damage is available every round, basically for free. Evoking illuminations every round isn't something I'd necessarily do in practice, but since it's mechanically how it works it feels like it needs some sort of drawback to counterbalance all that firepower. The mechanics fit the type of character the class aims to create pretty well, so I'm not entirely how to go about doing this without killing the flavor.

The DM suggested a Dragon Ball-esque "power up" mechanic for regaining motes as opposed having them automatically coming back every turn. Basically I'd spend a full-round action that provokes opportunity attacks to regain my full pool.

Another idea we came up with together was that healing Illuminations have a time-limit on how long they're effective. If the ally was injured received less than 1/2[Evoker level] rounds prior to evoking, it would work. Otherwise, it would fizzle.

Both of these solutions seem adequate, but we're still looking for approaches that would be more effective or thematically appropriate.

[5ColouredWalker]

Oversized Bolt weapon with Twinned Device and mote investiture. Have all your devices be held by the Twinned Device rules and pick up a sling or something. When you need to kill something, you target a square instead of a person and full attack.

Now everyone within 10ft of that square has to make a reflex save at 10+1/2 level+Stat Mod, taking 6d10+[3/2 Cha] damage, 3d10+[3/2 Cha] on a succesful save. Your range cap is your range increment. You can do this every round, and you can do it at level 1 instead without the mote investiture for 4-2d8 damage.

The closest comparison that's spamable is Firey Burst, available at level 3. This is a 5ft burst within 30ft [4 Squares vs 13 [Targeted square, all the squares around it, and the 4 squares to the N,S,E+W are all within 10ft], Range cap of 30ft vs as far as you can hit with your held weapon.], doing 2d6 fire damage at level 3 if you reserve your highest level spell slot.
Additionally, if you make your full attack with a weapon that can target a larger area, you get even more squares hit... Also, your damage increases by 2d10 every 3 Levels. Additionally, Radiant Armorer gives you free motes for Twinned Device that don't go against the Cap, and allows you to combine an assault blast with the attack at level 15. Also, you can apply the Enhanced Imbuement, and due to the wording of Twinned Device, you can enchant the primary device and have all the other copies get the enchantment.


Tome of Radiance is OP for damage and out of combat healing. Additionally, you can generate concealment from level 1 boosting your defence nicely, oh, and you can get full plate equivalent armor for free on level 1, being a further defence boost. So at level 1 as a Champion, you out damage everyone, are tankier than any frontliner [18 Base AC, +1 from Surge, +10% Concealment from Barrier.], And can heal better than a Cleric/Druid except in combat.
Or, be a Empath Instead, and you can also get the ability to heal better than a paladin. In exchange, it might be harder to hit the square you want with your weapon, but damn if you haven't just taken 3/4ths of the parties roles at level 1.

The Rogue is still relevant because he can find traps and sneak around, and the Wizard will become relevant with his superior crowd control and non combat abilities. But, a Empath or Champion can replace everyone else fairly easily.

[Morcleon]

Reposting my question since the thread is active again. :smalltongue:


Breath [Champion, Empath, Stargazer]
[Mote Cost: 3m/rank]
Breath is life, and there is no breath greater than the winds that sweep the world. With an illumination wielding this component, a magical girl can rouse the winds to her her command, conducting them as a maestro might lead a symphony. The interior of the barrier is subjected to Moderate Wind, blowing in a direction of the evoker's choosing. For each rank of this component beyond the first, the severity of the wind force increases by one step.

In regards to the direction of the wind, would it be possible to make the direction be "inward" for a strongholds shape, essentially creating a vortex effect and trapping anyone small enough who failed their save?

Also, assuming that the above is possible, what would happen should this barrier affect a creature larger than the size of the barrier (for example, a 5' radius sphere with tornado force winds against the tarrasque)?

[Burpito]

...but damn if you haven't just taken 3/4ths of the parties roles at level 1.



Haha, I'm worried about doing this without even trying. I went into this class wanting to focus on a middle-ground between damage output and tanking, though I haven't even looked at the barrier Illuminations yet (just blasts and surges), and I probably won't knowing it can just give me concealment for free. My feats are Diehard, Endurance, and Power Attack. Ability scores are as follows (15 point buy):

STR: 13
DEX: 12
CON: 10
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 18

Rolled okay on HD, so I'm at 22 for my max HP. There's a ten in CON because I planned around Force of Personality at level 6. The stats are still up in the air and can be changed since we haven't started playing yet.

I've got a surge that lets me pump strength up a couple of points, and that would be where I get a lot of my static damage bonus from. I'd be wearing either medium or heavy armor and have my imbuement be Nimble so I could maintain mobility.

Really I'm not looking to pick sub-optimal (relative to this class) features, but a good way to homebrew the homebrew and nerf it so it isn't so easy to be better than everyone else at everything.

[5ColouredWalker]

Honestly, the best way to Self Nerf would be to not touch Twinned Device, and not take any Assault Blasts until around level 10 when teir 1 casters are firmly taking over. Doing so would make you into a character comparable to a paladin. The examples that we've given so far display a optimization ceiling of upper teir 3 or maybe lower teir 2, but if you just ignore their existance and don't touch Assault blasts at lower levels?

Your healing is unlimited but slower, your buffs are better but more limited, you have built in ranged blasting that's ok, and your melee power will be alongside other fighters. Not the greatest balance compared to some people, but you're not going to completely overshadow people in your new role of Paladin 2.0.

[Burpito]

Honestly, the best way to Self Nerf would be to not touch Twinned Device, and not take any Assault Blasts until around level 10 when teir 1 casters are firmly taking over. Doing so would make you into a character comparable to a paladin. The examples that we've given so far display a optimization ceiling of upper teir 3 or maybe lower teir 2, but if you just ignore their existance and don't touch Assault blasts at lower levels?

Your healing is unlimited but slower, your buffs are better but more limited, you have built in ranged blasting that's ok, and your melee power will be alongside other fighters. Not the greatest balance compared to some people, but you're not going to completely overshadow people in your new role of Paladin 2.0.

That's better than being flatout better than everyone. I'm not entirely sure how this will end up stacking up against the rest of the party, but we shall see. Thanks for the pointers!

[sreservoir]

Reposting my question since the thread is active again. :smalltongue:



In regards to the direction of the wind, would it be possible to make the direction be "inward" for a strongholds shape, essentially creating a vortex effect and trapping anyone small enough who failed their save?

Also, assuming that the above is possible, what would happen should this barrier affect a creature larger than the size of the barrier (for example, a 5' radius sphere with tornado force winds against the tarrasque)?

as far as I can tell, there's no basis or precedent for such a thing, so ask your group. the only thing that seems might forbid the wind is "in a direction of the evoker's choosing", which depending on how strictly you want to read the number, could be taken to require a single uniform direction. there's not that much space between single uniform direction allowed and defining a vector function at every point with a fixed magnitude, though, I guess. for what it's worth, vortices are not quite directed "inward", either.

if something is bigger than the barrier, the wind's probably not going to affect it very much; it might be worth considering whether there's actually any air in the barrier to have a wind if the creature is there. short of that, divide the windspeed by the fraction of the creature's area or something? this is a problem which applies even if it's not directed in multiple directions, I think.

the wind rules don't really work very well for situations without a uniform wind speed and direction over the entire map, though. it's telling that the [Air] spells that funge the wind basically don't cite those rules at all ...

tl;dr is I don't think there's a coherent answer here though.


I love this class's flavor a whole lot, and have been wanting to play an magical girl for a while now. Luckily for me, my DM is letting me do a conversion of the Champion for his pathfinder campaign!

I've been thinking a lot about the balance of it all, since I don't really want to be over-powered and make the rest of the party feel inadequate. The Illuminations seem like they give you stupid damage output at early levels. We'll be playing at level three, meaning if I choose a Mighty device (which I have, naturally), use the Oversized Imbuement, then use an Assault blast with the Tremors foundation (boosted to 3 motes) against an enemy with his back to a wall, I'd do 2d12+3d6+strength damage in addition to knocking the guy prone. This is something I could do every round thanks to the regenerating mote pool. The character I have in mind would be sort of a force of nature once she's been cornered or pissed off enough to stop holding back, but this seems a little too nuts.

It looks like it scales way too well, especially compared to the other classes. It has the potential for infinite healing outside of battle, which a level 3 Cleric can't do. It can do 2d6 damage as a touch attack against any two enemies every round, which a level 3 Wizard can't do. It can get bigger damage dice than any Fighter reasonably can. I'm not really sure how this balance works in 3.5 since it's been eons since I've played it, but in Pathfinder it seems pretty broken as it is (barring that my understanding of the way these features work might be flawed).

I've basically been trying to nerf myself without changing the way it scales too much, and the best limitation I've come up with is basically approaching illuminations the same way the high-power stuff in a lot of anime is: you can only evoke illuminations a number of times per-day equal to the number of illuminations know.

I'm curious as to whether or not anyone else has thoughts on this. I'm too big a fan of this character concept to just drop the class for balance reasons.

the healing issue, offhand, isn't out of line: you get up to one heal off for each party member during an encounter, sure, and unlimited top-up out of combat, but a cleric also gets a bit more than half as much healing per shot for the whole party, 3+Cha/day, out of channel energy, which is probably something like 6-10d6 ea. that, and I out-of-combat healing isn't considered an interesting resource outside of special circumstances under ToR's design assumptions, i.e. 3.5e with wands of lesser vigor going around.

(the other thing is, unlimited healing isn't really a spotlight-stealing ability; it benefits everyone in the party, and doesn't break thing in a way that the system can reasonably fail to account for.)

it is vaguely plausible that the damage output at low levels has not actually seen that much balance-checking, since base damage interactions kind of go away asymptotically compared to blast damage. that might need reevaluation. possibly mighty and oversized as written are mechanically problematic.

[Bacchante]

So, after playing with it a bit and looking at it... the Intelligent Device feat scales really poorly. Any ideas?

[Zancloufer]

So, after playing with it a bit and looking at it... the Intelligent Device feat scales really poorly. Any ideas?

At level 3 it doesn't work period. Cheapest intelligent device it +2k GP, you only have 1.5k GP to play with at that level. Level squared times 250 GP (500 GP at level 11+) would be manageable, 2250 GP at level 3, though for about 1/3rd your levels it's value is more than half your WBL. Maybe a curve function that starts at 2k GP and caps around 100-200k GP my level 20 might work, though it would still be a noticeable WBL buff, along with the free weapon/armour you get.


On a different note, was thinking about the Stargazer's Complex Formula. Not sure I like the +1-3 extra known illuminations (which are only usable once per encounter) that have a mote value 1-5 motes higher with no extra cost. It actually looked at first glance more like you have 1-3 illuminations which you can spend 1-5 more motes in the crafting of. Almost think that it would work better to, and give a better use for that extra mote pool that Stargazers get and all. As it stands I'm not entirely sure how you would use those extra motes. Not enough actions in a round to actually use 2-3 powers and/or shuffle them out of/into your costume/device most of the time. Unless you have like one round where you go like full nova with your powers.

[sreservoir]

spending all actions in illuminations, or just using two actions on full-power illuminations while you have any motes tied up in costume, can run you into the reservoir.

no comment (didn't think about it very hard) on whether that'd work better but it's not actually dysfunctional currently.

[Bailey Matutine]

Surge Components

Foundation Components:

Battles [Champion, Empath, Stargazer]
Awed bystanders have whispered often of the alacrity of the most powerful magical girls. They move not with the precise form and motion of a master swordsman, but with a blinding swiftness born of passion and the very light they wield. If this illumination costs at least 7m, when the recipient of the surge makes a full attack or a charge attack, she may make an additional attack at her highest base attack bonus. For every additional 7m of cost, the illumination grants its target an additional attack at her highest base attack bonus. These extra attacks do not stack with those granted by Haste or similar effects.

Consumption [Stargazer]
To an evoker, light is life, and wonder, and beauty untold. But such radiance can be an awful thing to those who have not been touched by its power - a ghastly-bright inner fire that consumes their very souls. The target of the surge must make a Fortitude save or contract a supernatural illness known as Radiant Wasting, the result of a shard of tainted light embedded deep in their essence. This functions just as any other supernatural disease, with a save DC equal to the evoker's illumination save DC, an incubation period of one day, and no infection vector beyond use of this surge. Radiant Wasting deals 1d4 damage to one ability score, chosen by the evoker when she crafts an illumination with this component. For every 4m of this illumination's cost, she may select an additional ability score to deal 1d4 damage to, or increase the damage to an already selected ability by +2. Radiant Wasting may be cured like any other disease, but effects that emulate diseases (such as the spell Contagion) are unable to mimic it: Radiant Wasting's symptoms are too volatile, and too closely tied to individual evokers, to be reproduced with any sort of coherency. An individual who contracts Radiant Wasting from a surge with this component retains their affliction even after the surge's duration would otherwise end.

Courage[Champion, Empath, Stargazer]
The few against the many. The small against the great and terrible. The weak against the strong. Such are the battles faced by en evoker, and if she is to weather them she and her allies must stand fast with the courage to withstand any storm. For every 2m in the illumination's final cost, its target receives a +1 radiant bonus to AC, to a minimum bonus of +1.

Denunciations [Empath, Stargazer]
To be a magical girl is to be the very embodiment of mercy and forgiveness. It is rare for such beings to express true hatred... but simple anger is a different story entirely. The cosmos shudder at the righteous fury of an evoker, and the targets of their wrath feel fate itself conspiring against them. For every 4m of this illumination's cost, targets of the effect suffer a -1 penalty to all saving throws, to a minimum penalty of -1.

Diamonds [Champion, Empath, Stargazer]
Not easily is the light snuffed out, and a magical girl wields power to grant herself and her allies the strength of the candle that remains lit even in the fiercest of storms. The recipient of this surge gains DR 1/- for its duration. For each 2m of this illumination's cost, the DR granted by this component increases by 1.

Isolation [Empath, Stargazer]
There is power in a glorious alignment of comrades-at-arms. A whole that is often greater than the sum of its components parts. With the application of ruthless logic, then, the obvious way to strike at such a force is to shatter the very ties that lend it its power, leaving each to be ground into a lonely pile of dust. The target of this surge must make a will saving throw or be afflicted with a dire curse of isolation. The afflicted creature gains a Spell Resistance and Power Resistance of 15 + [the final mote cost of this illumination]. This resistance is controlled by the evoker - she may choose freely whether to allow any given effect to pass through or whether to force it to roll spell or power resistance as usual. Additionally, for every 3m of this illumination's cost, the evoker may suppress a single ongoing magical effect currently affecting her target, chosen at random. The evoker may deliberately exclude any effects from this random selection, so long as she is aware of its presence on her target.

Justice [Empath, Stargazer]
The world is an unfair place, but where walk the wielders of light, justice follows close behind. Those marked by this surge receive a brand of either Innocence or Prosecution, chosen when the illumination is crafted. Whenever a target with a brand of Innocence is dealt damage, their attacker suffers 1 point of retributive damage for every 6 points of damage dealt. Whenever a target with a brand of Prosecution deals damage, they suffer retributive damage equal to 1 point for every 6 points of damage dealt. The application of either form of brand can be resisted with a successful will saving throw. For every 4m of this illumination's cost, the ratio of provoking damage to retributive damage improves – 4m raising the ration to to 1:5, 8m to 1:4, 12m to 1:3, 16m to 1:2, and 20m to 1:1.

Might [Champion, Empath, Stargazer]
The ideal warrior has no weakness, but even the most rigorous training will leave sometimes leave one cursing that their skills are hindered by their own feeble body. Unsurprisingly, given how young many evokers are when they first begin to wield their power, one of the most common surge components is one to reinforce and fortify natural potential. The recipient of the surge receives a +2 Enhancement bonus to an ability score chosen when the illumination is crafted. For every 3m of the illumination's cost, the evoker may add a +2 Enhancement bonus to another ability score. The same ability score can be chosen for the boost imparted by an additional rank multiple times, and the effects of each rank stack. For example, a 3m Might Surge could grant +2 Str/+2 Con, or +4 Str.

Mockery [Champion, Empath, Stargazer]
Laughter is death to fear. The most dreadful of villains can often be reduced to a spluttering buffoon with a few well-placed jibes, and devious plots are merely foolish when theatrics are countered by satire. When no targets for jest readily present themselves, the component of Mockery can induce the sort of catastrophic pratfall that might bring shame to even the most egotistical foe. For every 1m of the illumination's cost, its target suffers a -1 penalty to their next attack roll or skill check. This effect can be negated by a successful Will saving throw. When the target misses an attack, the effect of this component immediately ends. Other effects of the illumination persist for the usual duration.

Protection [Champion, Empath, Stargazer]
When a friend is hurt, an evoker may draw upon her power to heal them. But for those evokers who understand the art of protection, their friends need not be hurt to begin with. For every 1m of this illumination's cost, targets of the surge gain 4 temporary hit points. These temporary hit points last for the duration of the illumination.

Resolve [Champion, Empath, Stargazer]
When her allies are worn and battered by the trials they face, a magical girl may lend her radiance to bring new vigor to weary flesh and bone. For every 1m of this illumination's cost, targets of the surge are cured of 1d6 points of damage. After receiving healing from an illumination with the Resolve component, the target cannot benefit from the effects of this component for one minute. Targets under this restriction still receive the benefit of any other effects of an illumination, and benefit from other sources of healing normally.

Sanctity[Empath, Stargazer]
There are many strange and wicked things in the world, and at times it seems that each offers more gruesome torments than the last. Against such manifold terrors, an evoker must at times shield herself and her allies against attacks bearing all manner of unwholesome effects. For every 3m of this illumination's cost, targets of the effect gain a +1 bonus to all saving throws.


Shape Components:
Awakening [Champion, Empath, Stargazer]
[Mote Cost: 0m]
There is power buried deep within every evoker to rival the mightiest of heroes. To call upon that wellspring, even unknowingly, is to tap a near-limitless source of potential, and even the mightiest of surges can seem effortless when turned inward. The surge targets the evoker.

Smiting [Champion, Empath]
[Mote Cost: 1m]
Traditionally, crafting a surge is an act of finesse and meticulous control, gathering radiant power in precise ratios to eventually unleash in a cascade of power. Still, some evokers prefer to just power up their weapon and hit things. A surge with this component empowers any single weapon she is currently wielding. The next time the magical girl makes a successful attack with that weapon, the target of her attack suffers the effects of the imbued surge along with those of the attack itself. If it is not discharged, the imbuement fades at the beginning of the evoker's next turn.

Bolts [Champion, Empath, Stargazer]
[Mote Cost: 1m + 4m/rank beyond the first]
Arcing power over great distances, the component of Bolts allows an evoker to provide aid to her allies (or woe to her enemies) even from across a battlefield. The surge is a ranged touch attack. Willing targets are hit automatically, but enemies must be struck with a ranged touch attack normally. The effect can target a single creature within a 30' base range. Each rank beyond the first allows the evoker to target an additional creature within range.

Pulses [Champion, Empath, Stargazer]
[Mote Cost: 1m + 3m/rank beyond the first]
While many struggle to channel them into singular applications, some evokers find it easier to simply let their surges of power wash out around them in a great flood. The suge is an aura affecting valid targets within a burst possessing a 5' radius for each rank of this component. Upon crafting the illumination, an evoker may choose if she wants the aura’s effect to target only allies, only enemies, or both.

Secondary Components:

Amplitude [Champion, Empath, Stargazer]
[Mote Cost: 1m/rank]
Boosting the cohesion and longevity of a surge, this component allows the range of an illumination to be dramatically increased. For each rank of the Amplitude component applied to an illumination, its range is increased by an amount equal to its base range. This does not affect the radius, length, or other measurements of any potential Shape effects, and does not benefit illuminations whose Shape does not specify a base range.

Purity [Empath, Stargazer]
[Mote Cost: 2m/rank]
True healing is beyond the powers of light, save in the rarest of circumstances, but the illuminations of a magical girl can nonetheless drive away many ills of the world – even if only for a time. The target of the surge may, for its duration, ignore one of the following effects for each rank of this component; Blinded, Confused, Cowering, Dazed, Dazzled, Deafened, Energy Drained, Exhausted, Fascinated, Fatigued, Frightened, Nauseated, Panicked, Paralyzed, Shaken, Sickened, or Turned. Which effects are suppressed must be chosen at illumination creation. Each selection of ‘Energy Drained’ suppresses only one negative level. The evoker must suppress Shaken before she can suppress Frightened, Frightened before Panicked or Cowering, Fatigued before Exhausted, Sickened before Nauseated, and Dazed before Paralyzed. These effects are not removed from their target, nor are they re-applied when this surge fades - this illumination merely suppresses the effects of the conditions affected.

Awe [Empath, Stargazer]
[Mote Cost: 3m]
Throughout history, wielders of the light have held a special place in the hearts of the common people. In modern times, magical girls are revered as heroes and idols, and in ancient ones, it was not uncommon for them to bask in worship as the resplendent goddesses of their people. There is a fundamental awe in beholding the radiance and purity of light, capable of making knees weaken and bend. The target of the illumination must make a will save or fall prone.

Burdens [Empath, Stargazer]
[Mote Cost: 3m]
No heart is entirely free of darkness - nor should it be. The traces of shadow are what allow the mortal races to grasp the light with such fervor. Yet, the radiance of a magical girl can make even the lightest of hearts feel too heavy to bear, and the component of Burdens serves to convert metaphorical chains into literal ones, binding a creature with their own regrets. The target of the illumination must make a reflex save, or be entangled.

Echoes [Champion, Empath, Stargazer]
[Mote Cost: 3m/rank]
A magical girl’s surges of power burn brightly, but their effects fade all too swiftly at times. Though the initial rush of power lasts but a moment, it is possible with practice to maintain the echoes of power long enough to leave a lasting mark on the battlefield. For each rank of this component, the surge’s effects last an additional round.

Oaths [Champion, Empath]
[Mote Cost: 3m/rank]
An evoker standing in defense of her friends will stand unwavering against impossible foes, and will allow nothing to stand between her and those she has sworn to protect. Whenever the target of an illumination with at least one rank in this component takes damage, the evoker may redirect up to 25% of that damage on to herself as a free action, regardless of distance. For every rank of this component beyond the first, the evoker may redirect an additional 25% of an attack's damage onto themselves when using this ability, up to a maximum of 100%.

Mirage [Stargazer]
[Mote Cost: 4m/rank]
Calling upon the capricious nature of relative light and space, the Mirage component is a powerful defensive measure against those unable to pierce its trickery. The recipient of the surge gains a number of illusory duplicates equal to the number of ranks in this component. These duplicates share her space and mimic her actions, functioning identically to those created by the spell Mirror Image.

Emptiness [Empath, Stargazer]
[Mote Cost: 4m/rank]
Better than most, evokers understand that there are few torments more terrible than loneliness and isolation. This isolation is not only a fitting punishment, but also at times a potent tactic in battle, leading to the inception of the rather brutal component of Emptiness. If one rank of the component is applied, the target of the surge must make a will save or be blinded or deafened, chosen when the illumination of crafted. If two ranks of the component are applied, the target suffers both effects on a failed save.

Promises [Champion, Empath, Stargazer]
[Mote Cost: 3m/rank]
A promise instilled by the power of light is not an easy thing to break, and the powers of a magical girl can give even fiends pause to question their attacks. The target of the illumination must make a will save or be rendered unable to attack a single target of the evoker’s choice for each rank in this effect. If the target of the illumination is not aware of any conscious enemies that would be excluded from this protection, this component has no effect on it.

Pursuit [Champion, Empath, Stargazer]
[Mote Cost: 3m/rank]
Once an evoker gets her heart set on something, the combined denizens of the lower planes might be hard pressed to sway her from her goal. The target of the illumination must make a will save (which it may voluntarily fail) or be marked by this ability. As a move action, the evoker may teleport up to her base land speed without provoking attacks of opportunity, so long as this movement ends adjacent to a creature she has marked with a pursuit effect. For each rank of this component beyond the first, the distance the evoker may teleport via this effect increases by her base land speed.

Heartbreak [Empath, Stargazer]
[Mote Cost: 8m]
Among the cruelest and darkest of all illuminations, the component of Heartbreak was born of unspeakable pain and tragedy. Those who wield it knowingly are dangerously close to a long fall into darkness, if indeed they still stand in the light at all. The target of the surge must make a will saving throw or experience a traumatic and ruthlessly focused memory suppression effect, binding all memories of friendship or kindness behind wrought doors of sickly radiance and sending the target into a blind rage of fear and betrayal. The target will spend each turn attacking the nearest creature, and is completely heedless of the difference between friend and foe. If the duration of the illumination is extended, each new round offers the victim of this illumination another opportunity to make a will save and shake off its effects. This is a mind-affecting effect.

Options for the Awakening range seem rather sparse, which is unfortunate because that costs 0 motes, which means you can't just get your cost from that. May I suggest adding a secondary component along the lines of Vehement or Emphasis which increases the numerical value granted by the base component? I'm unsure of the exact balance, but there needs to be something.

[Zancloufer]

spending all actions in illuminations, or just using two actions on full-power illuminations while you have any motes tied up in costume, can run you into the reservoir.

no comment (didn't think about it very hard) on whether that'd work better but it's not actually dysfunctional currently.

That is a very valid point. Still feel the Stargazer is missing a little something that set's it definitely above the other two classes when it comes to illuminations. They seem to be the "Magic" class in this system, but don't really have that large of a power advantage when it comes to illuminations IMO.


Options for the Awakening range seem rather sparse, which is unfortunate because that costs 0 motes, which means you can't just get your cost from that. May I suggest adding a secondary component along the lines of Vehement or Emphasis which increases the numerical value granted by the base component? I'm unsure of the exact balance, but there needs to be something.

It's a shape I don't think it needs a cost. As far as I know there's no rule saying you can't have a mote cost that doesn't add to a shape or secondary component. For example you could probably have a Beam shaped blast illumination that costs 4m and has no secondary component. If anything you should use a Bolt shape if you have extra motes. There is literally no advantage of a self buff vs a 30ft range touch attack except for saving motes in the case of a cheaper shape.

[Morcleon]

Options for the Awakening range seem rather sparse, which is unfortunate because that costs 0 motes, which means you can't just get your cost from that. May I suggest adding a secondary component along the lines of Vehement or Emphasis which increases the numerical value granted by the base component? I'm unsure of the exact balance, but there needs to be something.

You can just use Echoes to add more duration to your surges so you can have more active at once.

[sreservoir]

That is a very valid point. Still feel the Stargazer is missing a little something that set's it definitely above the other two classes when it comes to illuminations. They seem to be the "Magic" class in this system, but don't really have that large of a power advantage when it comes to illuminations IMO.

it does. if I remember correctly, we brought it up a long, long time ago, but we didn't come up with anything.

... well, Bottomless Reservoir and Boundless Creativity did come out of that, I think. Student of the Light also? I think it's written to be stargazer-specific but it also might be poorly worded and I either wasn't around for that discussion or forgot about it. boundless creativity is I think p neat, actually, although there aren't that many possible illuminations to craft that are quite so situational, but.

looking over the things, the stargazer schtick mainly seems to be more or less being able to throw around full-power (or close) illuminations with every action if they want, especially figuring in bottomless reservoir and effortless formula, or more sustainably about two full-power illuminations per round. whether the extra illumination firepower (the expected output for other classes seem to be about one at full power and maybe another substantially cheaper one, champions putting cartridges into a resplendent device aside) is a satisfactory trade-off is unclear.

[Bacchante]

Someone also ought to take it upon themselves to build a Companion-based Prestige Class. I kind of have an idea for one, but I'm not sure how to proceed. Fast Healing for unsummoned Companions would be one Class Feature I'd like to work in; as well as the ability to maybe invest Motes into a Companion instead of just casting the Illumination to potentially keep out more than one?

I've also been houseruling that the 'Attuned' component can qualify you for classes just as the Prisms one can, myself.

[tonberrian]

Do Illuminations require "patience or concentration"? Would you be able to use them in a barbarian rage or similar effect?

[Zancloufer]

Do Illuminations require "patience or concentration"? Would you be able to use them in a barbarian rage or similar effect?

I'm not sure. I think there more like Spell Like Abilities, so the question is can you use a SLA when raging?

On a different note in an indirect response to Bacchante I have the base idea for a companion based PrC. Still not 100% sure on the class progression or name, but I'll post in the spoiler what I have done so far. It's like 90% playable in it's current state I would think, but some naming and proofreading would be nice.


(Class?)

Requirements
To become a (Class?), you must fulfill the following criteria.
Feats: Focused Talent (Compaion)
Illuminations: Must know at least two companion illuminations with a mote cost of at least 5 each.

Class Skills:
The (Class?) Class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Decipher Script (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge [All skills, taken separately] (Int), Perform (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magical Device (Cha)
Skill Points
4 + Int modifier

Table: (Class?)
Hit Dice: d8


Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special
Illuminations


1st
+0
+0
+2
+2
Companion Compendium

+1 level of existing class


2nd
+1
+0
+3
+3
Soulbound Compaion
+1 level of existing class


3rd
+2
+1
+3
+3
Empathetic Transfer
+1 level of existing class


4th
+3
+1
+4
+4
Helping Hand
+1 level of existing class


5th
+3
+1
+4
+4
Refined Focus
+1 level of existing class


6th
+4
+2
+5
+5
Radiant Transfer
+1 level of existing class


7th
+5
+2
+5
+5
Synchronized Action
+1 level of existing class


8th
+6
+2
+6
+6
Luminous Link
+1 level of existing class


9th
+6
+3
+6
+6
Greater Empathetic Transfer
+1 level of existing class


10th
+7
+3
+7
+7
Duel Summon
+1 level of existing class



Class Features
Illuminations: At each level, (Class?) gains an increase in evoker level, illuminations known, illuminations readied, innate illuminations, and personas known as if they had gained a level in an illumination-using class to which they belonged before adding the prestige class level. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If she had more than one illumination-using class before becoming a (Class?), she must decide to which class to add each level for the aforementioned purposes.

Companion Compendium: Being devoted to the use of companions, the (Class?) has extensive knowledge of companions used by any and all Evokers. The (Class?) automatically knows all Foundation, Shape and Secondary components related to Companions even if they would not be available for their base Evoker Class.

Soulbound Companion (Su): Starting at level two the (Class?) can form a temporary link to their companion similar to the Soulbound feat. This link takes a full-round action to establish and lasts a number of levels equal to half their evoker level, or until the companion is dismissed. As long as the companion is within a number of feet equal to (Evoker Level + Evoker stat mod * 10) as a free action the (Class?) can call upon her companion's senses as if she was using them directly her self. Anything that requires sensory input (Line of Sight for attacks, Spot/Listen Checks) the (Class?) can use her companion as a point of reference for. In addition this feature counts as the Craft Soulbound feat for qualifying for other Soulbound feats, but only with her companion.

Empathetic Transfer (Su): From level three onward the (Class?) can share positive effects with her companion. Any healing the (Class?) gains half of it goes to her companion in addition to any healing she revives herself. In addition the (Class?) can transfer any buff or surge effect that targets her to her companion instead.
Helping Hand (Su): At level four any companion the (Class?) has a link with can use any skill the (Class?) knows. As long as the (Class?) has established a Soulbound Link with her companion the companion can use it's 'attack' action to do any skill check as if it was the (Class?) itself. In addition the (Class?) can speak through her companion, and the range for the link increases to (Evoker Level + Evoker Stat mod * 20) feet.

Helping Hand (Su): At level four any companion the (Class?) has a link with can use any skill the (Class?) knows. As long as the (Class?) has established a Soulbound Link with her companion the companion can use it's 'attack' action to do any skill check as if it was the (Class?) itself. In addition the (Class?) can speak through her companion, and the range for the link increases to (Evoker Level + Evoker Stat mod * 20) feet.

Focused Talent (Ex): After reaching level five the (Class?) has become much more adept at focusing her companion. Instead of the full mote cost it now only costs half the mote cost of the companion to refill the companion's focus and allow it to use it's Greater Attack as a free action. Additionally a Soulbound Link only takes a Standard Action to establish.

Radiant Transfer (Su): Starting at level six the (Class?) can transfer effects of her radiant armaments, and even the weapon's themselves to her companion. As a Swift action she can transfer her weapon, shield gained from the Blazing Aegis feat, or costume effects to her companion that she has the Soulbound Link to. If the (Class?) has the twinned device feat she may target the companion as the user of her extra device(s) instead. The companion is automatically proficient with all devices and benefits from any bonuses to hit/damage that apply to the weapon transferred to it. Finally the Distance for the link to function increases to (Evoker Level + Evoker Stat Mod * 30) feet.

Synchronized Action (Ex): After gaining the seventh level in (Class?), the (Class?) can transfer her actions directly to her companion. As a Free Action the (Class?) can forgo any action she could make in a round to allow to companion to take it instead. Additionally if the (Class?) has a harmonious device now instead of spending a full round action to grant the companion an additional attack, the companion now gains an action equal to a full attack with a number of iridatives (-5 to hit per consecutive irdidative) as if it had a BaB equal to the (Class?) evoker level.

Luminous Link (Su): At level eight the (Class?) can now manifest her Illumination from her companion. Using the appropriate action (Standard, Move, Swift) the (Class?) casts here Illumination from her companion. Any range or Line of Sight assumes the companion as the originating point, and any self buffs target the companion instead. Also the range of the Luminous Link increases to (Evoker Level + Evoker Stat Mod * 40) feet.

Greater Empathetic Transfer (Su): From level nine onward the power of the Empathetic Link increases greatly. Now and healing done to the (Class?) is reflected 100% on her companion. In addition the companion gains half the effects (rounded down) of any positive status effect on the (Class?) that would not normally effect the campion. Alternately the (Class?) can transfer all the effect to her companion and only gain half the effect herself. Finally the establishment of a Soulbound Link with her companion can be forged with a swift action.

Duel Summon (Ex): Upon gaining the final class level the (Class?) is capable of, albeit temporarily, summoning two companions. If the (Class?) summons a second companion when one is already present, instead of disappearing automatically the (Class?) can opt to keep the first companion around. The first companion can only stay around for a number of rounds equal to 1/4th it's mote cost when summoned. Should the (Class?) summon a third companion when two are already present she can choose which companion to keep and the time they stay summoned for automatically refreshes. However the (Class?) can only have the Soulbound Link active with a single companion. Most importantly the (Class?) can transfer her Soulbound Link to a different companion she has summoned as a free action once per round. Finally the distance that the link can be active at increases to (Evoker level + Evoker Stat * 50) feet.


Besides name, I'm note 100% certain on 10/10 Illumination progression (I mean it's BASED off an entire subset of them but still) and the chassis itself. Also

[Ilorin Lorati]

Personally, I'd say they don't take patience and concentration - if only because, having spent a good part of the day with my cousin's daughters, I'm convinced tween and pre-teen girls don't have the capacity for either.

[Qwertystop]

Typo: Soulbound Companion has a duration measured in levels.

Empathetic Transfer is a bit garbled. Perhaps "Whenever the (Class?) is healed, her companion gains half as much healing." Also, you make a skill check, you don't do a skill check.

Not sure of the mechanics. Feels like you don't gain much but I haven't looked at Companions in a while, and never tried to build someone to use them.

[AbridgingCritic]

Hey there! I have a question about transferring the Illuminations into a more classic D&D 3.5 spellcasting table. I'm not sure if this has been answered in one of the twenty six pages this thread has. :smallsmile:

I have a group of fairly new players and they absolutely loved the idea of playing Magical Girls. However, at character creation they got incredibly confused by the Mote Pool and Illumination Crafting. (I personally love how customizeable the Illuminations force your characters to be, but since they are new I really want to bring your system to life in a way they could understand)



The Champion: possibly turning The Champion's Illuminations table into the Cleric or Sorceror's spellcasting table (possible minus domain)
The Stargazer: giving this class the Wizard's spellcasting table and spells readied, and maybe replacing their Complex Formula with a specific Metamagic Feat spell slot once a day (such as Heighten Magic)
The Empath: ... Here's where I'm really having trouble. Since this class is all about juggling Personas I really don't know how to divvy up their magical abilities. Any ideas?


I am aware that the Mote Pool is invested in everything else about this class. So here's some thoughts I've had about using them:

All motes only can be invested into Armament and Device Effects and Lightforge Feats (?)
Giving the characters the Awakened Light Feat


I honestly love this homebrew and wish my Players were up to the challenge. But they still have so many questions about the classic D&D 3.5 system they really aren't up to learning an entire new set of rules to play. I think having a spellcasting class would help them ease into it. We were all new to this game once, and I want to share with them how inventive and open-ended this game is. What do you think I should do? I'm open to any recommendations and suggestions?

[AmberVael]

I think converting it into standard spellcasting is probably a bad idea. Its just... why even bother, at that point?

What I would suggest is creating set illuminations, ones that can simply scale in a manner similar to augmenting psionic powers. Essentially, just make illuminations that automatically scale based on your evoker level, rather than being made from a pool of points and components. This way they're a lot simpler to grasp, and once your players have mastered that you can start delving into the rest of the system with only minimal trouble since they'd know the basics.
Rainbow Spray
Blast
Deals 1d6 damage per evoker level in a 5ft cone, +5ft for every evoker level you possess (10ft cone at level 1, 15ft cone at level 2, etc).


Shining Armor
Surge
You gain a radiant bonus to armor class equal to half your evoker level. This bonus lasts for one round, plus an additional round for every three evoker levels you possess.


Basically, just simplified, prebuilt illuminations. They'll be even easier to understand than spells, and will generally work with same way.

I'd effectively remove the mote pool just by setting every illumination equal to evoker level (and would probably do the same thing with costume effects). This way the rule becomes using two illuminations/costume effects in a round rather than 2*evoker level in motes, which is much easier to grasp.

[Hunter Noventa]

So I've been playing my Stargazer in our current campaign, just got my Intelligent device which is great when paired with Twinned Device and Radiant Armaments, so it can fire my ranged device while I'm holding my Resplendent one to power up my Illuminations.

But I've noticed something a bit...lacking. Surges and Barriers are quite difficult to make good use of at low levels because of the high cost of the duration extending effects. Until 4th level Barriers effectively have a duration of concentration, since you'd have to recast them every round, and Surges are the same, except for the debuffing ones which are severely hampered by having to overcome a save every round.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, just an observation that bugs me. I almost feel like the buffing or debuffing components for surges should have a natural duration that can be extended further by the Secondary Component. I suppose it's to balance the fact that you never run out of 'spells', but the Warlock has the same thing going for them, and their debuffs and buffs have an actual duration on thier own.

[sreservoir]

they do run off swift and move actions, respectively. I don't think you usually have much to do with your swifts at low levels to begin with, so at least those shouldn't be too hard to use ...

[Fizban]

Finally got around to learning this properly after it's been up for years. I think I've caught most of the oddities and restrictions now.

Since it doesn't fit anywhere else: I'm surprised your DM is actually letting you pull that off, Hunter. Letting your intelligent ranged weapon have a free full attack every round is, if anything, worse than if an intelligent sword did the same (cause y'know, ranged). Being able to activate their own magic item effects is already more than strong enough.

I agree that barriers are rather underwhelming in barrier-ness, but really when you can recast every round you can't possibly give them free base duration, and that goes double for surges. If you want Warlock duration then you have to take warlock known invocations (down to 12 instead of 13+ and imbuements), warlock dps (down to 1d6/2 instead of 1d6/level bases), and warlock chassis (no Champions for you). Well probably not that far, I'd say Warlocks deserve a buffing if they're even seeing play alongside ToR classes, but anyway. Have you considered less debuffing and more buffing? Protection surges are completely broken as far as I'm concerned (even at 2hp/m it'd be almost stupid good). Get behind the tank, tap it every round, tank never dies.

As for barriers, until you hit 12th any foe can just shove through it in a turn anyway so more duration hardly matters unless you layer them. On the other hand, a 3m Zone/Dominion/Returning lets the entire party teleport around the battlefield, allowing everyone to get behind the tank or regroup for Protection aura surge (I'm not even sure what else Dominion is good for unless you really need antimagic field on two spots far away from each other). While I would like it if duration were cheaper, I'm more concerned by the lack of area scaling and general. The Breath and Anchor secondary components are pretty cool, but require so many motes that by the time you have an effect worth using, you're got nothing left for area. Reverse Gravity with a 20' radius is pretty much worthless and there's never been proper rules for null gravity IIRC. The Rampart area is appropriately the method by which you'd reinforce the weak Barricade foundation with an area of difficult terrain. . . but the difficult terrain effect is another foundation. This means that you have to rely on at least 6m of Breath (vs medium creatures) or 10m of Anchor (if null grav is useful), on top of 4m for Rampart, which leaves you with. . . a 10' square of wall. Or you could spend 1m on Stronghold and get 40' of curved wall as you plop the sphere on them.

While I'm griping about barriers, why does Shadow affect the edge instead of the interior? That makes no sense. Also, if we're gonna admit that you have to recast every round, there should be a clause that if you recast a barrier immediately after it ends, you can extend the duration of an existing barrier. So that people can't just run through your flickering barriers with a readied action.

And some other thoughts. These may have been addressed on the wiki, but the activity page doesn't give any timestamps so for all I know it was Selinia by herself and hasn't been updated in years. And I prefer forum format anyway.

I feel like Stargazers are underpowered. Champions have the same number of illuminations readied and way more dps with devices added on, while a Stargazer can't use multiple blasts unless they try combining Luminous Tinker to get Assault shape with Sharpshooting blasts (the weapon attack is the blast so it should benefit) and Focused Talent. (I suppose they have Lingering blasts [which use fort saves for some reason], but Luminous Tinker cuts both ways). You can say that a Stargazer has access to more options and can build the perfect list to use all actions and motes every round, but a Champion that just spams massive damage and temporary hit points will probably accomplish more, and can do so at massive range with a Bolt device. Maybe Complex Formula really makes that much of a difference, but when there are relatively few unique effects you can bring to the table, there's not much it can actually spring out of nowhere (I'm not really counting Luminous Reservoir since it mostly covers rounding errors unless you use a feat and doesn't directly increase power or options).

I can see why the Prism blast component allows you to change it when readying illuminations, but it definitely highlights how the Primal costume element makes a big deal of people being recognized for their chosen element. . . which they can change at will on 5 minutes notice. Only the PrCs and Companion illuminations make that a real choice. Of course the only reason to use an energy blast is to get the primal bonus, and you can dodge any resistance by adding a Forged component (which also ignores DR because it's not a weapon). A nice rain of hailstones or ice javelins gets the primal bonus without needing a PrC to negate resistance, but you can still change it every 5 minutes.

Vile blasts are stronger than they should be: for comparison, the Violate Spell metamagic only converts half the damage, weapons and attacks don't deal very much, and there aren't really any direct vile damage spells. So I'd cut that down to half.

There's a weird line in the Stance device about how it doesn't make you armed, but counting as armed is already part of the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and forcing you to provoke AoOs on every attack by stripping that out would be silly. Intelligent Device+Stance device.

Aura costumes are very tempting, as an extremely rare (possibly unique in the base rules?) method of exceeding 2m/level for an extended period. All you gotta do is swear off actually having an armor class.

There should be notes regarding if the player can choose the size of the device or if it's automatically set to their size, because Powerful Build is a thing (A goliath with a large mighty device and the oversized imbuement deals 6d6 weapon damage without motes, or 4d8 with a large bolt device, plenty even after level 1). For both, there should really be a statement regarding damage and destruction. Presumably they're indestructible as written since there's otherwise no method of recovery, but you never know when being indestructible will make something absurd.

Devices in general are really strong. It's nice that they have nifty effects since you're limited to the device table rather than all printed weapons, and it makes the choices matter, but those are feat/class ability/magic item tier effects. Despite not looking like it at first due to the smooth 2m/level, illuminators are still pretty frontloaded. Like meldshapers, though not as bad. At 1st level you get a special weapon ability from your device and a special ability from your imbuement, which both function without mote investment, as well as your 4+ illuminations and 2m per turn.

[Hunter Noventa]

Finally got around to learning this properly after it's been up for years. I think I've caught most of the oddities and restrictions now.

Since it doesn't fit anywhere else: I'm surprised your DM is actually letting you pull that off, Hunter. Letting your intelligent ranged weapon have a free full attack every round is, if anything, worse than if an intelligent sword did the same (cause y'know, ranged). Being able to activate their own magic item effects is already more than strong enough.

Well it hardly has any magic item effects now, but it just made sense for it to be able to attack as well, even if it's only a single shot. It's been helpful so far since our party is a little low on the DPS side of things.



I agree that barriers are rather underwhelming in barrier-ness, but really when you can recast every round you can't possibly give them free base duration, and that goes double for surges. If you want Warlock duration then you have to take warlock known invocations (down to 12 instead of 13+ and imbuements), warlock dps (down to 1d6/2 instead of 1d6/level bases), and warlock chassis (no Champions for you). Well probably not that far, I'd say Warlocks deserve a buffing if they're even seeing play alongside ToR classes, but anyway. Have you considered less debuffing and more buffing? Protection surges are completely broken as far as I'm concerned (even at 2hp/m it'd be almost stupid good). Get behind the tank, tap it every round, tank never dies.

Yeah I rewrote the Warlock class for Pathfinder a while ago with some buffs, I should put it up here. If I were to give barriers a base duration, I'd say you could only have one up at a time, unless you used the duration component to extend it, then you only get the rounds for that if you put up another one.



As for barriers, until you hit 12th any foe can just shove through it in a turn anyway so more duration hardly matters unless you layer them. On the other hand, a 3m Zone/Dominion/Returning lets the entire party teleport around the battlefield, allowing everyone to get behind the tank or regroup for Protection aura surge (I'm not even sure what else Dominion is good for unless you really need antimagic field on two spots far away from each other). While I would like it if duration were cheaper, I'm more concerned by the lack of area scaling and general. The Breath and Anchor secondary components are pretty cool, but require so many motes that by the time you have an effect worth using, you're got nothing left for area. Reverse Gravity with a 20' radius is pretty much worthless and there's never been proper rules for null gravity IIRC. The Rampart area is appropriately the method by which you'd reinforce the weak Barricade foundation with an area of difficult terrain. . . but the difficult terrain effect is another foundation. This means that you have to rely on at least 6m of Breath (vs medium creatures) or 10m of Anchor (if null grav is useful), on top of 4m for Rampart, which leaves you with. . . a 10' square of wall. Or you could spend 1m on Stronghold and get 40' of curved wall as you plop the sphere on them.

Yeah, I've seen a couple I want to use rather badly, but I don't have the motes just yet. I guess Barriers just aren't that effective at low level. I was able to make good use of the one that slows enemies down at least.

I'm definitely looking forward to some of the more esoteric barrier and surge effects, and the ludicrousness I'll get from my prestige class as well.

Though next time I'm going with an Empath, if my Stargazer kicks the bucket somehow. It'll be really hard not to call out 'Persona!' everytime I change aspects.

It's a good system, not perfect by any means, but it's been fun so far.

[Zancloufer]

It is worth mentioning that Champions have no real Ranged AoE Blasts (Beam gets close, but it still starts at the champion) with most of them being Stargazer/Empath only. Not to mention that Volatile is a Stargazer only secondary component. I would argue that Stargazers are better at AoE blasting than Champions are.

Yes Champions come very front loaded and get all of their good things early and can do monstrous single target DPS. Heck you could make a viable front-liner that dumps Str and Con. Wouldn't come online till level 6 though. I would say all the ToR classes excel at doing massive reliable damage with short-lived, but powerful, buffs.

At higher levels the Stargazer has a few exclusive tricks they can do that push their flexibility. As mention anti-gravity barriers are cool, and their ability to make illusions and anti-magic fields is quite nice. I mean yes you have to be pretty much level 17-20, but there is nothing saying that the direction of anchors can't be the middle. Put a bunch of Domions on top of enemies with Very strong gravity aimed at the middle. Pretty sure you could get some RAW, or RAI interpretation on what that would do. While Champions might seem on paper the powerhouse, at higher levels the number of tricks they can't use becomes more and more apparent. Assault and Imbue actually kind of suck at higher levels as you get to the point where you CAN'T add more effects to them anymore.

Also I would mention that the most game-breaking things (and one of the few things that makes any ToR class get to tier 2+) would be the Stargazer6+/Frostfell Maven. Get some crafting feats/skills on that and essentially become an Artificer. Rapid Crafting and the temporary things they can make cam get insane (Makes like 330k GP worth of magic items in 8 hours 0-o).

[sreservoir]

Also I would mention that the most game-breaking things (and one of the few things that makes any ToR class get to tier 2+) would be the Stargazer6+/Frostfell Maven. Get some crafting feats/skills on that and essentially become an Artificer. Rapid Crafting and the temporary things they can make cam get insane (Makes like 330k GP worth of magic items in 8 hours 0-o).

I think the cost-elimination of frostfell artistry (empowerment) is supposed to apply only to things created with craft arms and armor.


Beginning at 5th level, the frostfell maven may infuse items with the very essence of winter when using her frostforged artistry. This functions in all respects as if the maven possessed the Craft Magical Arms and Armor, with the following exceptions. For all purposes involved in the item creation process, treat the frostfell maven as having a caster level equal to her evoker level. Additionally, she may ignore requirements for any spell she is unable to cast. Lastly, the maven may ignore any gold or XP costs the crafting process might incur, and may complete one week of work in only ten minutes of concentration upon her project. Despite these advantages, magical equipment created in this fashion is comprised almost purely of frozen power, and is even less stable than most of a frostfell maven's creations. If she does not infuse a piece of magical weaponry or armor with the gold and XP components to sustain it, the item's enchantments will melt away the moment it is no longer in contact with the maven herself.

of course, that's still broken and stargazer 6 alone is extremely powerful in a certain kind of campaign, but ...

[Fizban]

It is worth mentioning that Champions have no real Ranged AoE Blasts (Beam gets close, but it still starts at the champion) with most of them being Stargazer/Empath only. Not to mention that Volatile is a Stargazer only secondary component. I would argue that Stargazers are better at AoE blasting than Champions are.

At higher levels the Stargazer has a few exclusive tricks they can do that push their flexibility. As mention anti-gravity barriers are cool, and their ability to make illusions and anti-magic fields is quite nice. I mean yes you have to be pretty much level 17-20, but there is nothing saying that the direction of anchors can't be the middle. Put a bunch of Domions on top of enemies with Very strong gravity aimed at the middle. Pretty sure you could get some RAW, or RAI interpretation on what that would do. While Champions might seem on paper the powerhouse, at higher levels the number of tricks they can't use becomes more and more apparent. Assault and Imbue actually kind of suck at higher levels as you get to the point where you CAN'T add more effects to them anymore.
Anything that relies on "exclusive" components is completely negated by the Luminous Tinker feat, which gives not one but three illumination components from any list. If a Champion feels hindered by their lack of AoE, Explosion is only a feat away, as well as Volatile (which isn't exactly reliable), and another component of their choice. The Stargazer has just that, a few semi-exclusive tricks. Blasting is blasting. Under Barriers they have Anchor, Visions, and Silence: since Anchor hardly works and Silence antimagic field is a can of worms, I hope you like illusions (I don't, at least AMF doesn't require multiple layers of anti-metagaming), and all three can be bought with a single feat. Under Surges they have the bizarre Consumption that I'd never use (it lacks even the Contagion clause of striking immediately), and Mirage which I guess is nice? Point is, a Champion need only spend 1, 2, 3 feats at most to steal all the Stargazers "exclusive" tricks, while a Stargazer can't do anything about their low BAB, hp, AC, etc.

I think it really all comes down to how much performance you can get out of Luminous Reservoir and Complex Formula, which my gut tells me is not going to be as much in practice as it is in theory. There are few enough effective battlefield control effects that you ought to be able to carry them all at once anyway so there's no advantage there. Whenever I start thinking about the Stargazer's extra "known" illuminations (bad term choice since it works differently than Champions) all I see are redundancies, having the same effect in pure range/area and then at shorter range/area with bonus effects. I guess there just aren't enough effects that interest me to make having some extra to switch between seem all that good. I'd still favor trying Stargazer first anyway, but all ToR classes are hard to compare to standard DnD for obvious reasons. Comparing to other builds/hombrew I've used/seen IRL, certainly less versatile than Incarnum or Power of Cybernetics and less spike damage than auto-crits and maxed fireballs from a Servant Soul, but it'd still overshadow every other class at the table. But now I'm just grumbling about my old gaming groups.

I have conspicuously not mentioned the Empath so far, since I haven't re-read it yet and expect I'll be rather annoyed.

[AbridgingCritic]

If a Stargazer uses their Shining Schemata to create spell scrolls, what are their limitations in regards to level-specific effects, e.g.: a spell lasting rounds/spellcaster level, healing a certain amount of damage/lvl)
Do they use their manifester level instead of a spellcaster level? Or is their manifester level cut in half for divine and arcane magic?

[sreservoir]

stargazer uses caster level = evoker level for item creation purposes. I have no idea where you'd get the idea of cutting the level in half from.

[Qwertystop]

Regarding the earlier suggestion of a Stargazer making an Anchors barrier pointed towards the middle: I'm not sure that would work. "Towards a point" is not a single consistent direction, not even close to it unless the point is very far away, while the description specifies "a direction". Of course, plenty of other directions would be as effective or more so.

[Zancloufer]

Regarding the earlier suggestion of a Stargazer making an Anchors barrier pointed towards the middle: I'm not sure that would work. "Towards a point" is not a single consistent direction, not even close to it unless the point is very far away, while the description specifies "a direction". Of course, plenty of other directions would be as effective or more so.

What if you used Dominions then? Do all the Dominions have to have gravity pointing in the same direction or could you "Rotate" them to create some sort of box that enemies are trapped in? Discount Force cages anyone?

Also would it make that much of a difference to remove the "readied" illuminations from Stargazers? Having twice as many powers known than Champions on paper sounds good but having to choose which half you know per encounter is rather limiting. I'm not even sure where that came from in the first place tbh. Would make the Stargazers apparent flexibility in power actually applicable.

[AbridgingCritic]

A question about the Empath Lesser Aspect Persona, High Priestess:
For their counterspelling ability, what if they fight a Champion, Stargazer or other Empath and want to counterspell? Since illuminations don't have spell levels, can they expend double the original illumination's mote pool to counterspell?

[AmberVael]

A question about the Empath Lesser Aspect Persona, High Priestess:
For their counterspelling ability, what if they fight a Champion, Stargazer or other Empath and want to counterspell? Since illuminations don't have spell levels, can they expend double the original illumination's mote pool to counterspell?

Illuminations are supernatural abilities, and cannot be counterspelled.

[Hunter Noventa]

What if you used Dominions then? Do all the Dominions have to have gravity pointing in the same direction or could you "Rotate" them to create some sort of box that enemies are trapped in? Discount Force cages anyone?

Also would it make that much of a difference to remove the "readied" illuminations from Stargazers? Having twice as many powers known than Champions on paper sounds good but having to choose which half you know per encounter is rather limiting. I'm not even sure where that came from in the first place tbh. Would make the Stargazers apparent flexibility in power actually applicable.

You could probably do it, but you couldn't just shift right over to the 'Illuminations Known' column, as that would be a bit too many I think. Considering their readied progression is the same as the Champion's known progression, you'd have to stagger it a little bit to bring the total number down, not giving new Illuminations on the levels that they gain a major class feature like Shining Schemata, Complex Formula or Sagacity. That would give you, if you started at 6 Illuminations at level 1, 19 Illuminations plus 3 Complex Formulas.

[jamieth]

If I may offer some historical perspective, at the beginning, Champions had Illumination Readied too; in particular, a level 1 Champion had 4 Illumination known and 1 readied. Compared to that, yes, Stargazers did have amazing flexibility.

[AbridgingCritic]

Question:
From your own personal experiences using this system, whenever you have a Champion, Empath or Stargazer as an NPC in a campaign where they might have to fight your PCs; how do you calculate their Challenge Ratings for XP Division? Since their spellcasting/illumination abilities are so powerful, should I do something like:


Class lvl + racial ECL bonus + 2? (My best guess)
OR Class lvl + Racial ECL bonus + a different number?

I'm not that familiar with adjusting NPCs with class levels for CR calculation. I did try and use this formula:

Vorpal Tribble's CR calculator...

#1. Divide creature's average HP by 4.5 to 6.5.
4.5 for 5 HD or lower, 5 for 6-10 HD, 5.5 for 11-15 HD, 6 for 16-20 HD., 6.5 for 20-25 HD.

#2. Add 1 for each five points above 10 its AC is, subtracting 1 for every 5 below.

#3. Add 1 for each special attack (+2 to +5 or more if its got a decent number of spells in its spell-like abilities).

#4. Add 1 for each quality unless you deem it worthy of more. Add 1 for each resistance and 10 points of DR it has, and 2 for each immunity. Subtract 1 for each vulnerability.

#5. Add 1 for every two bonus feats it has.

#6. Divide total by 3. This should be its rough CR

I have a campaign where my PCs are a Champion and a Stargazer, where they will eventually have to confront other Tome of Radiance NPCs. What would you recommend?

(I know I ask a lot about this particular system, but I really want to have all the info I need to let my players use it well.)

[AmberVael]

When asking such a question, its important to note how broken the CR system is. Also disparity in character power. Not only are there wide ranges of power between creatures of identical CR, but there are wide ranges of power between classes, and also specific characters of classes.

In theory, I think an evoker should be a challenge rating equal to its level. However, to a group of low optimization or with low power classes (such as Monk, Fighter, Paladin), an evoker presents a more powerful opponent and might be 1 or 2 higher in terms of CR. By contrast, a group of high optimization or high power (Sorcerers, Clerics, Wizards) may have offensive options and capabilities that overwhelm the lower power evoker and would treat it as a CR or two lower.


If you just want the simple answer though? CR = Class level, done. It won't be any worse than all the other CRs out there.
Obviously add in race modifiers too.

[Fizban]

I'd rate NPC illuminators as high performance monsters with slightly less hp than normal due to not having inflated hit dice, sticking with CR=level. They deal maybe a bit more damage than most monster abilities but still less than an optimized blaster, and can be built with some annoying tricks that might require different tactics to defeat.

[Zancloufer]

You could probably do it, but you couldn't just shift right over to the 'Illuminations Known' column, as that would be a bit too many I think. Considering their readied progression is the same as the Champion's known progression, you'd have to stagger it a little bit to bring the total number down, not giving new Illuminations on the levels that they gain a major class feature like Shining Schemata, Complex Formula or Sagacity. That would give you, if you started at 6 Illuminations at level 1, 19 Illuminations plus 3 Complex Formulas.

It wouldn't be that much higher IMHO. Comparing Psionic classes for example, imagine if the Psion had the same number of powers known, but could only ready as many as a Psychic warrior for some reason. It's not a 100% solid comparison, but there is some similarity between the classes comparisons and Stargazers do seem a little weak compared to Champions. I don't think there is quite enough flexibility in the core illumination component list to really warrant selecting different power per counter most of the time.


On the CR note, SRD/DMG says for class levels, CR (increase) = Class level, if the majority of it's HD/levels are class levels. Now naturally that doesn't always pan out, but with the ToR classes being solid tier 3 it works better than 80% of the CR system. Just be careful about optimization and numbers, especially in the damage output. 4 level 14 Champions might be a "very difficult" encounter for your 4 level 14 PCs, but they have a insanely high chance of TPKing the entire party terribly on the first round. I mean they could theoretically dish out 224d6 damage on a surprise round if you half-way optimize their builds/strategies.

[Zancloufer]

No one's been here for a while. Have been doing some ToR stuff with my D&D group lately and kind of came up with this. Still a WIP with some fluff and names subjec to to change, but in it's current form it's like 99% playable:


Duskreaper

Making a Duskreaper:
Abilities: Intellegecne is arguably their most important ability. It determines the save DCs of her illuminations, as well as the effects of many of her abilities. Also having a role similar to the rouge Dex is almost as important

Role: It's like the Psychic Rouge or Beguiler. So a stealthy combatant/skill monkey.

Races: Members of any race can rise to the role of duskreaper, but they most commonly hail from those known for their short lifespans. None can say for certain why - perhaps their brief lives are simply more prone to the wild and passionate flares that give birth to a champion's brand of radiance.

Alignment: Probably good. Not like any of the ToR classes are inherently evil, though the class plays more or a "Dark Magical Girl" than the others.

Starting Gold: As bard

Starting Age: Most duskreaper come into their power early, perhaps out of the innocence of childhood. When rolling for age, roll as a Bard - but subtract the total from adult age rather than adding it (to a minimum of half an adult’s age). If rules are in place that would reduce the statistics of child characters, the champion is exempt from them.

Class Skill List: The Duskreaper’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Concentration (Con), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Duskreaper

Hit Dice: d6



Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special
Illuminations Known
Imbuements


1st
+0
+0
+2
+2
Radiant Armaments, Merciful, Trapfinding
5
1


2nd
+1
+0
+3
+3
Power of Friendship
5
1


3rd
+2
+1
+3
+3

6
1


4th
+3
+1
+4
+4
Dark Luminosity)
7
1


5th
+3
+1
+4
+4

7
2


6th
+4
+2
+5
+5

8
2


7th
+5
+2
+5
+5
Dark Luminosity
9
2


8th
+6/+1
+2
+6
+6

9
2


9th
+6/+1
+3
+6
+6

10
3


10th
+7/+2
+3
+7
+7
Dark Luminosity
11
3


11th
+8/+3
+3
+7
+7

12
3


12th
+9/+4
+4
+8
+8

12
3


13th
+9/+4
+4
+8
+8
Dark Luminosity
13
4


14th
+10/+5
+4
+9
+9

14
4


15th
+11/+6/+1
+5
+9
+9

14
4


16th
+12/+7/+2
+5
+10
+10
Dark Luminosity
15
4


17th
+12/+7/+2
+5
+10
+10

16
5


18th
+13/+8/+3
+6
+11
+11

16
5


19th
+14/+9/+4
+6
+11
+11
Dark Luminosity
17
5


20th
+15/+10/+5
+6
+12
+12
Eclipsed Apotheosis
18
5



So the chassis is essentially the rouge. Good Will as that is fairly staple for ToR classes. Imbuements advance at champion rate, and illuminations are about middle progression, somewhere between a champion and stargazer. Intelegence base as I though that worked best for the more "dark/cynical class"

Weapon and Armour Proficiency: A Duskreaper is proficient with all simple weapons, light armour and shields (but not tower shields).

Illuminations (Su): Infused as they are with the power of light, a champion is capable of crafting and calling upon powerful manifestations of radiant energy known as Illuminations. A Duskreaper knows a fixed number of illuminations, and may change any number of her known illuminations freely each time she gains a level in this class. A Duskreaper's illuminations are a fundamental element of her being, and she may evoke any illumination she knows without need for preparation of any sort. A Duskreaper’s Evoker Attribute is Intelligence.

Illuminations are explained more completely in their own section.

Radiant Armaments (Su): Upon awakening to the radiance within her soul, a Duskreaper establishes a bond with a particular weapon and suit of armour – respectively referred to as her Device and her Costume. How a Duskreaper finds the armaments that are hers by right varies widely; she may stumble upon them in a dream, only to awake clutching them in hand, or she might find them in the crater left behind by a falling star, but they always appear within a week of attaining her first level in this class. As she advances in level, the Duskreaper may imbue her armaments with an ever greater number of powerful modifications, as indicated above.

Radiant Armaments and Imbuements are described more completely in their own section.

Merciful (Ex): Whenever a Duskreaper deals damage with an attack or an Illumination, she may choose to deal non-lethal damage instead with no penalty to attack or damage rolls.

Pretty much copy and pasted the spiel from the other classes. Not like it's that different

Trapfidning (Ex): Like the Rouge (and Beguiler) the Duskreaper may locate traps with a DC higher than 20, find and disarm magical traps and bypass a trap if she beats the Disable Device DC by 10 or more.

In case you wanted to be like a beguiler or magical rouge. You know, trap finding and stuff.

The Power of Friendship (Ex): A Duskreaper is capable of swaying the alignment of captured foes, as described in the Power of Friendship section below.

In addition, a Duskreaper is remarkably cunning at couching her arguments in rationality and healthy common sense. Appealing to head as much as heart, a Duskreaper may use her Intelligence score, rather than her Charisma score, when making redemption checks. And while such arguments may at times fall of deaf ears, they do not change because of the Duskreaper's motives – a Duskreaper may ignore any increase in DC that would result from the Ulterior Motive penalty.

"Dark/edgy magical girls" WITHOUT ulterior motives! Insanity! Be nice to not get penalized for having motives you know.

Dark Luminosity: Unlike most magical girls the Duskreaper spends much of her time in the shadows. Whether it by introverted tenancies, no desire for dramatic flare, or just a plain preference for darkness, they understand the shadow around them more than those who cast them. Starting at level 4, and every 3 levels thereafter, the Duskreaper can learn a special ability chosen from the list below, assuming she meets any per-requisites:

Okay I had no idea how to make a stable dark magical girl. After some talking with others and thinking about their role I went with the "pick an ability" route. There's like 11+ abilities, but only 6 you can pick. Also some have pre-reqs or build your character differently. You know choices and stuff. Also kind of rouge-ish in that you have a bunch of abilities to choose form just like the core rouge.

Cunning Strike (Ex): The Duskreaper's cunning allows her to know where to strike. When attacking with her device and/or an Illumination, she adds her Intelligence mod to her attack roll. If she is a level 10 or higher Duskreaper she also applies her Intelligence to damage as well.

Who likes being SAD(Single Ability Dependant). I do. If we need Int for skills/powers and dex/con for being you know a rouge we don't have time for strength!

Shadow Strike (Ex): Striking unaware foes can me called many things, but the Duskreaper calls it smart. If she strikes a foe with her device and/or an Illumination, she flanks, her target is flatfooted/denied their Dex to AC or unaware of her presence, any dice involved increase by one (d4 becomes d6 etc) to a maximum of a d12. If she is a level 10 or higher Duskreaper the dice increase by 2 instead. This ability stacks with Hidden Light and Encroaching Night.

It's sneak attack. Except scales better and doesn't fail against things like golems, skeletons and bonfires. Though the extra damage is directly related to how much you put in.

Hidden Light (Su): Similar to Shadow Strike, except that any illumination and/or weapon Imbuement gain a number of virtual motes equal to one half her Evoker level for that strike. This ability stacks with Shadow Strike and Encroaching Night.

Sneak attack. Again. Except it works a little different. Combine with other similar abilities for massive damage.

Shadow Dive (Su) [Req 5h level Evoker]: Duskreapers thrive in the shadows and finding those dark spots in something of a speciality. As a move action costing motes equal to evoker level the Duskreaper may teleport up to twice their movement speed to any square with shadows or that provides concealment. If the square in question posses the Returning and/or Journeys barrier effect the Duskreaper adds the range of Returning to her base speed and multiplies it all by the Journeys multiplier.

Short range teleportation. Also can combine with other sources of short-range teleportation.

Dark Insight (Su) [Req 7th level Evoker]: Some Duskreapers prefer a suboptimal outcome they can predict. At the beginning of each day the Duskreaper can select a number of skills equal to 1/2 her intelligence modifier. Any time she has to make a d20 roll involving one of those skills (even under duress) she may opt to 'take 10' but instead of 10 assume she rolled the number equal to her intelligence modifier, up to a max of 20.

That skill mastery thing that rouges had. Except you aren't married to the skills you choose. Also reduces RNG in skill checks which a skill based duskreaper should love.

Poltergeist Manoeuvre (Su) [Req 9th level Evoker]: The Duskreaper is able to manipulate objects in a manner similar to the Telekinesis spell. Spending a number of motes equal to their evoker level with a standard action she can imbue a number of items equal to her int mod. Once imbued the objects act as if the Duskreaper had cast telekinesis on them, with a duration and max force as if her evoker level was her caster level. Unlike telekinesis the spell doesn't end when her concentration does.

Telekenises. At will. Really nice, should work flavour wise, but requires some thinking to get the most out of. Like the class in general.

Pandora's Map (Su) [Req 9th level Evoker]: While much of the Duskreaper's powers involve misdirection, this power is much more literal. Requiring a full round action and motes equal to her evoker level the shifts the people around her. All creatures (Friendly or Hostile), within 5ft per evoker level, must make a reflex save (DC = Illumination DC). Those that fail are rotated 90 degrees relative to the Duskreaper. If there is an obstacle, they are dropped in the closest unoccupied square.

This is probably the oddest power. Really messes with barrier positions as well.

Dark Puppeteer (Su) [Req 13h level Evoker]: The Duskreaper manipulates the power of shadows to make Suggestions (as the spell) to others. With a standard action and spending a number of motes equal to her evoker level, the Duskreaper can implant a suggestion into a creature by manipulating their senses, with a DC equal to her illumination DC. Unlike the spell this ability is not considered mind-affecting (works against mindless/mind-blanked creatures), though it will still fail if the target is incapable of hearing or seeing.

At will suggestion. That works against "Mindless" enemies and things with mind-blank. Enemy still needs to be able to perceive you for it to work though.

Twilight Fatality (Ex) [Req 13th level Evoker and Shadow Strike or Hidden Light]: Much like an assassin the Duskreaper can fell her opponents in a single strike. If a Duskreaper studies her victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack (See Shadow Strike/Hidden Light) with her device and/or an illumination that successfully deals damage, the attack has the additional effect of possibly of instantly incapacitating them. While studying the victim, the Duskreaper can undertake other actions so long as her attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the Duskreaper or recognize the Duskreaper as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC = Illumination DC) against the effect, he instantly drops to 0 HP. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the Duskreaper has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the strike within the next 3 rounds.

If the attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the Duskreaper does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before she can attempt another death attack.

It's Death Attack. Except not lethal. Or a death effect. Or fails on things that have blanket immunities. Actually kind of nasty. Like if some unseen magical assassin stalked you for a while and then struck at an unaware enemy dropping them in a single strike. Go assassin power actually assassinating things.

Lingering Dusk [Req 16h level Evoker]: Illusions and misdirection are a staple of Duskreapers and nothing is more embarrassing than having her illusion wink out before it's job is done. Any power or Illumination that effects movement or senses (Journeys, Shadows, Returning, Visions from Barrier components, Mirage, Emptiness and Heartbreak from Surge components) the Dark Puppeteer or Poltergeist Manoeuvre class ability(if she has either) and any SLAs/Su Abilities based off Illusionary, mind-affecting or teleportaion spells, have their duration (Be it rounds/minutes/hours etc) increased by 1/3rd her evoker level (IE: A level 15-17 evoker has her applicable illuminations last 5 more rounds, or a SLA with min/level increases by 5 minutes).

There are a bunch of high level illuminations that have really nasty illusion or debuff effects, but because of cost have very bad durations. Not anymore. an extra 5 or more rounds on some of those illuminations is REALLY nice on a stealth based character.

Encroaching Night [Req 16h level Evoker]: When stumbling in the dark one must be careful not to loose anything. Using this ability the Duskreaper can attempt to steal power or vitality from others. Any opponent that is vulnerable to a sneak attack (or Shadow Strike) the Duskreaper can attempt a special attack against. As part of a standard attack with her device and or/illumination the Duskreaper attempts to syphon off either health or occult power from their opponents. The target must make a Will or Fort Save (Duskreaper's choice, DC = Illumination DC). If the target fails the Fort save they loose an additional number of HP equal to the Duskreaper's level and the Duskreaper gains health equal to damage dealt by the strike. If the target has to make a Will Save the effect varies in this order:

(1) Prepared or Spontaneous Spell-caster with spells they have prepared/can cast; looses one spell, started with the highest level they can cast, and the Duskreaper gains/adds to a temporary bonus mote pool equal to the level of the spell*2 (1 for 0 level spells).
(2) Character with a Power Point or Mote Reserve, looses a number of PP or motes equal to the Duskreaper's level, and the Duskreaper gains/adds to a temporary bonus mote pool equal to PP/motes lost.
(3) SLAs: Loose one SLA (highest effective level 1st) and the Duskreaper gains/adds to a temporary bonus mote pool equal to the effective spell level. In the case of at will powers (includes the Warlock and other classes with at-will powers) the Duskreaper gains/adds to the mote pool a number of motes equal to the effective spell-casting level of the user.

If the target has no spells, power points, mote reserve, or SLAs there ability simply fizzles and fails.
The temporary mote pool lasts the entire encounter, though the Duskreaper can only use up to her evoker level worth of motes from the poll each round. This ability stacks with the Shadow Stike and Hidden Light abilities.

Drain magic. Or life. Pretty much the carnage barrier and/or a recharge able luminous reserve. Or spell stealing.

Shadow Hand (Ex): Instead of choosing a new power the Duskreaper may channel the martial power of darkness. She may take the Martial Study or Martial Stance Feat (though she is limited to Shadow Hand Manoeuvres/Stances) take a martial feat that has a prerequisite of a Shadow Hand Manoeuvre/Stance, or if she has Martial Adept levels that has access to the Shadow Hand list, she can increase her Martial Adept level by 2 (up to HD max) and gain extra manoeuvres known/readied and stances known as if she had gained two level in that class.

Shadow Hand is kind of magical and/or rouge like right? Also makes for entering the Valerie PrC a lot easier, if you want to go that route. Not sure how that would work, but we have the Magical Idol class so there area crazier ideas already.

Eclipsed Apotheosis (Ex): The barrier between the Duskreaper and the radiant power she channels has all but dissolved. She is likely a very different person from the one who first set foot on her long adventure, but her blazing spirit has preserved against all odds in the darkness of the world, beaming forth with a fury that angels and demons might envy. At 20th level, a stargazer forevermore becomes a Native Outsider with one alignment subtype of her choice and an Augmented subtype pertaining to her previous type, with all the traits that implies. Further, she can no longer be aged by any means mundane or magical, and will never die of old age.

In addition the Duskreaper may supplement her weakness with her natural cunning. She chooses one of her physical stats (Strength, Dexterity or Constitution) and thereafter using her intelligence in place of her chosen stat.

You know there is probably a better capstone that this. Though it's not bad, and I like the wordplay.


Illumination Components known:

Blasts:
Foundation:
Clinging, Flares, Lures, Tremors
Shape:
Cascade, Assault, Imbue, Embraces, Bombs Swarms
Secondary:
Buffered, Dust, Forged, Horizon, Prism, Sharpshooting, Vile, Dissonance, Sundering

No direct damage and everything requires an attack roll, or for the enemy to trip it. As with much of their list you'll notice access to some more obscure components at the cost of some basic ones. Though Sharpshooting Assaults are probably REALLY nasty, especially with their sneak attack powers later on.

Companions:
Foundation:
Cautious, Focused, Mischievous, Serene
Shape:
All
Secondary:
Amphibious, Attuned, Bonded, Cuddly, Frightful, Harrying, Miniature

Debuffs, CC and ranged attacks. If you have a flanking buddy one with BFC is probably what a rouge wants

Barriers:
Foundation:
Journeys, Shadows, Shelter, Tempests, Zone
Shape:
All
Secondary:
Pilgrimage, Returning, Ancients, Visions

Barriers don't seem that good at first, though I was aiming to force a more finesse based play style. Have illusions which was originally a Stargazer Exclusive.

Surges:
Foundation:
Battles, Courage, Isolation, Justice, Might, Mockery, Protection, Resolve
Shape:
All
Secondary:
Amplitude, Awe, Echos, Burdens, Mirage, Emptiness, Promises, Pursuit, Heartbreak

Overall Surges probably have the more comprehensive list. Again gave them access the the Stargazer exclusive illusions.

Any thoughts about the idea? Something you think I missed? Not sure on what the class would do?

[GypsyDangerZone]

Made this account cause I'd been thinking of using this class and was curious about something.

Does the lure blast allow AoO on its way to you, say like you made a line of adventurers, if you succeed in pulling a target does each character the enemy passes get to attack it, including your self when it ends up next to you, as well as taking the pull damage.

[Morcleon]

Does the lure blast allow AoO on its way to you, say like you made a line of adventurers, if you succeed in pulling a target does each character the enemy passes get to attack it, including your self when it ends up next to you, as well as taking the pull damage.

Targets affected by the lure blast provoke AoOs from any threatened squares it leaves during its pull. If this includes you, you do get an AoO. However, most blasts originate from you, so unless you have >=10' reach, you aren't going to get an AoO.

[Bacchante]

Targets affected by the lure blast provoke AoOs from any threatened squares it leaves during its pull. If this includes you, you do get an AoO. However, most blasts originate from you, so unless you have >=10' reach, you aren't going to get an AoO.
Almost all forms of forced movement in the game don't provoke AoOs unless they say otherwise. If that weren't the case a 5' AoE Tremors blast and Combat Reflexes would be a very effective way of hurting a lot of things at once. I've never let Tremors or Lures movement provoke AoOs.

Apart from that; what is the base damage type of Blasts? Because, as I'm reading this, there's a lot of incentive to not designate it as any particular type because as untyped energy damage it bypasses pretty much every form of resistance. You can't boost the damage with, say, Primal without assigning a damage type but it can also get around all forms of energy immunity or resistance.

[Fizban]

That's because most forms of forced movement themselves specify that the movement they force does not provoke. If the forced movement does not include such a clause then combo works. There are also 1st level spells that can do the same thing (such as PHB Command) so expect the "it's only a 1st level spell" defense.

Indeed, there is no damage type unless you make it a damage type, and you can get by absolutely fine without ever making a typed blast of any sort. ToR does seem to assume you have to compete with higher-op casters though, what with it's baseline being about 2.5 Warlocks, so even if you're building mechanics first rather than fluff first there's still significant incentive for those damage bonuses.

[Norsun]

I didn't see anything limiting the illumination uses per day, curious if I miss read somewhere or can you just spam illuminations

[Reality Glitch]

Now I'm suddenly curious if there will ever be a 5th edition apdaptation of this material

[Qwertystop]

I didn't see anything limiting the illumination uses per day, curious if I miss read somewhere or can you just spam illuminations

It's not per-day. It's a power cap per-ability and an action-economy one per-round, which add up to that if you want to use your full set of actions on them in a round they can't be full-power. Like a 3.5 Warlock with more tuning.

[sreservoir]

I didn't see anything limiting the illumination uses per day, curious if I miss read somewhere or can you just spam illuminations

there's no daily limit, but there's a few per-round limits, and p much all durations are either measured in rounds or take points out of the mote pool.

[jamieth]

Now I'm suddenly curious if there will ever be a 5th edition apdaptation of this material
Crunch-wise, unlikely - unless, of course, someone writes one :-)
Fluff-wise, there's Magical Girl (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444516-Base-Class-Magical-Girl-(AKA-quot-Help-me-I-ve-done-something-terrible!-quot-)) for 5e.

[Morphic tide]

I haven't looked over all the core stuff yet, but what I've seen so far looks like it partially enables 'Light is Not Good' stories with the presence of stuff that is explicitly about rage, violence and other general nastiness falling under 'Light'. And now I can't help but imagine Miko the Paladin/Monk as one of these Magical Girl classes...

Oh, and the Power of Friendship thing makes for an amusing way to rollplay befriending people by beating them down. Manages to make Diplomancy even more terrifying... And yes, I meant to type rollplay, because having exploitable crunch for something is helpful to specific crazy campaigns, like ones which have no border between crunch and fluff, where metagaming is part of the setting.

One criticism I have is the lack of a Dark Magical Girl base class, for the people who want to do characters who hinge on never having the Light stuff in the first place. Kinda screws with immersion and low level play to have no options to be Dark at level one...

The lack of Exalted compatibility disappoints me. By Exalted, I mean the Book of Exalted Deeds thing of feats that prevent you from doing specific things, with higher-up things having harsher restrictions. They start at taking 'Do no evil' as an absolute requirement, and get more restrictive from there. Like 'No lethal damage, ever!' or 'Never use anything with any monetary value!' It gets crippling to keep up when you start racking up the Vows. It's not an exaggeration to say that someone with all the Vows makes a Paladin look like a shady crack dealer.

[YuweaCurtis]

Wow, this is still getting hits...

I like this, though I'm wondering if some it isn't over the top... Of course the game I'm using the Champion in isn't that best field test.

[Morcleon]

One criticism I have is the lack of a Dark Magical Girl base class, for the people who want to do characters who hinge on never having the Light stuff in the first place. Kinda screws with immersion and low level play to have no options to be Dark at level one...

The lack of Exalted compatibility disappoints me. By Exalted, I mean the Book of Exalted Deeds thing of feats that prevent you from doing specific things, with higher-up things having harsher restrictions. They start at taking 'Do no evil' as an absolute requirement, and get more restrictive from there. Like 'No lethal damage, ever!' or 'Never use anything with any monetary value!' It gets crippling to keep up when you start racking up the Vows. It's not an exaggeration to say that someone with all the Vows makes a Paladin look like a shady crack dealer.

Dark Magical Girl can be done by a simple refluffing. You don't actually need to treat light as good in any sense, and simply be an evil character.

The BoED is pretty poorly written, from both a mechanical and morals standpoint, and I'm glad there's no mention of it anywhere in this homebrew.

[Snowfire]

The lack of Exalted compatibility disappoints me. By Exalted, I mean the Book of Exalted Deeds thing of feats that prevent you from doing specific things, with higher-up things having harsher restrictions. They start at taking 'Do no evil' as an absolute requirement, and get more restrictive from there. Like 'No lethal damage, ever!' or 'Never use anything with any monetary value!' It gets crippling to keep up when you start racking up the Vows. It's not an exaggeration to say that someone with all the Vows makes a Paladin look like a shady crack dealer.

*ahem*

Child of Light (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258654-Tome-of-Radiance-Mastering-the-Power-of-Love-and-Justice&p=14715007&viewfull=1#post14715007)

That is all.

It's not anywhere near as restrictive, but as Morcleon points out, restrictions aren't the way to make people want to do good. Give people power that enables them to work within those limits and they'll jump for it quite happily.

As to darker MGs, just fluff your Illuminations and the like in that sort of direction then chain it out into a fitting PrC. Example: an Evil Champion/Immortal can be terrifyingly fun to roleplay. In the end, due to the thematics of the source material, you're always going to have the slant towards Light and generally by extension Good. Most people attribute those together, just how it goes. But it's not a restriction.

[Bacchante]

Radiant Speaker

Requirements
To become a Radiant Speaker, you must fulfill the following criteria.
Skills: 8 Truespeak Ranks
Utterances: Must be able to speak 2nd Level Utterances of the Evolving Mind
Special: Evoker Level 4

Class Skill List: Appraise (Int), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge [All skills, taken separately] (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Truespeak (Int), Use Magic Device (Cha)
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Radiant Speaker
Hit Dice: d6



Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special


1st
+0
+0
+0
+2
Enhanced Weaving, Golden Tongue, Truename Training


2nd
+1
+0
+0
+3
Wordshard (1)


3rd
+1
+1
+1
+3
Radiant Inflections


4th
+2
+1
+1
+4
Bonus Feat


5th
+2
+1
+1
+4
Wordshard (2)


6th
+3
+2
+2
+5
Truespeak Components


7th
+3
+2
+2
+5
Bonus Feat


8th
+4
+2
+2
+6
Wordshard (3)


9th
+4
+3
+3
+6
Radiant Moonlight


10th
+5
+3
+3
+7
Truth in Radiance



Illuminations: A Radiant Speaker's levels stack with its previous evoking class for the purposes of determining access to illuminations. If they have more than one Evoking Class they must pick one. This decision cannot be changed.

Utterances: A Radiant Speaker's levels stack with its previous class for the purposes of determining access to Utterances. If they have more than one Truespeaking Class they must pick one. This decision cannot be changed.

Enhanced Weaving (Ex): A Radiant Speaker gains additional costume elements as if her levels in Radiant Speaker were levels in her previous evoking class or Empath, whichever is more advantageous.

Golden Tongue (Su): At first level a Radiant Speaker gains a special costume effect that is always active and gained in addition to all others.

Effect: The Radiant Speaker may add their Evoker Stat as an Competence Bonus on Truespeak checks. They may also apply their Merciful class feature to any Utterances.

Essence Boost: For every 2m invested in this effect the Radiant Speaker gains a +1 Radiant bonus to Truespeak checks, a +1 Radiant Bonus to Diplomacy checks and a -2 Radiant Penalty to Bluff checks.

Cartridge Boost: When a Cartridge is expended to fuel this effect, the Radiant Speaker may Take 10 on all Truespeak checks for a number of rounds equal to their Evoker Stat Modifier.

Truename Training (Ex): At first level, the Radiant Speaker gains the benefit of the Truename Training feat. If they already have this feat, they gain Skill Focus (Truespeak) instead. If they have both then this takes no effect.

Wordshards (Su): Starting at second level, the Radiant Speaker may craft a Wordshard. This is a personalized ritual taking five minutes per Shard. Each Shard is a collection of Radiant Energy fortified with Truespeak and containing a single Utterance. This Shard may be loaded and used in the same way as a Cartridge, but with a different effect; when triggered, the Utterance within it activates. Only Evolving Mind and Crafted Tool Utterances may be used, and the Truespeak check is made as part of creating it; including any Inflection feat bonuses. Remaking a used Wordshard doesn't require a new check, but making one with an entirely new Utterance, or different Inflections, does. Finally, it may be used to trigger the Golden Tongue Cartridge Boost as if it were a normal Cartridge instead.

They gain one additional Wordshard at fifth and eigth level.

Radiant Inflections (Su): At level three, the Radiant Speaker may select one Secondary Illumination Component they have access to per two levels of Radiant Speaker. This may now be used as if it were an Inflection feat, with an added DC equal to the mote cost; which must also be expended in the process of speaking it. Evolving Mind Utterances may have Blast (or Companion) and Surge components added. Crafted Tool may only benefit from Blast and Surge, and only the Perfected Map may use Barrier components.

The components chosen may be changed when the Speaker levels up.

Bonus Feat: At fourth and seventh level the Radiant Speaker gains a single bonus feat. This may be any [Inflection], [Lightforge] or [Radiant] feat.

Truespeak Components (Su): At sixth level, the Radiant Speaker gains the ability to apply Inflections to her Illuminations. The DC for the check is [20 + Mote Cost + Inflection Cost]. They may only apply a single Inflection with this ability per three levels of Radiant Speaker.

Radiant Moonlight (Su): At ninth level, the Speaker gains a singular mask. If they are an Empath, they immediately gain the Moon Persona on top of their existing Persona. Otherwise, as a free action the Radiant Speaker may don the mantle of the Moon by expending a number of motes equal to their Evoker Level. They do not gain the usual bonuses of this ability. However, they do gain the aura of the Moon:

Within a radius of [5 * evoker stat modifier] feet, for the purposes of skills, spells, and abilities, all words spoken by individuals within this radius are considered ‘true’ – Sense Motive checks will reveal only honesty, and lie-discerning magic will pass over such utterances without a trace. This does not inflict any form of compulsion upon listeners, nor even compel them to believe in the factual truth of a statement, but they will always view claims by creatures within the aura to be of utmost honesty. This grants a +5 circumstance bonus on all Truespeak checks made by any creatures in the area.

Truth in Radiance (Su): At the height of their power, a Radiant Speaker may blend Truespeak and Radiant power effortlessly. They may use any secondary component they know with their Radiant Inflection ability. Additionally, they may add an actual Utterance as a carrier to their Illuminations. The effect will apply to anything that the Illumination affects; however, it is cast on the Illumination itself. Use the Mote Cost as the CR or CL of the effect, and consider the location Magical for the purposes of Barriers and the Perfected Map. Additionally, any Inflection feats may apply to both the Utterance and Illumination.

This ability only functions while wearing the mask of the Moon.

---

A Prestige Class I built for a game so it could be used with the Book of Words (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?217713-A-Book-of-Words-An-Expanded-Truenamer-Fix-PEACH) Truenamer fix. Still needs fluff. Also happy to accept any suggestions for balance improvements.

[Qwertystop]

...Huh. First time I've seen a PrC for theurging classes from two different editions.

(ToR is a Pathfinder book, right? And BoW is 3.5?)

[Morphic tide]

...Huh. First time I've seen a PrC for theurging classes from two different editions.

(ToR is a Pathfinder book, right? And BoW is 3.5?)

This is homebrew. There is no physical, buyable copy of it. And I`m rather sure that ToR here is made for 3.5, not PF, although conversion between the two is usually easy. Also, PF is not officially an edition of D&D, it`s legally a separate game that ¨happens¨ to be so close to 3.5 that only the open game licence lets it avoid copyright. Said licence is also responsiple for the vast fields of 3rd party products in 3.5, which largely serve as free marketing for the first party stuff and a way to bloat various numbers in the TTRPG industry.

As for the class, it`s a fun thing to look at, probably a monster to play. Mixing metamagic-type things can get out of hand fast, and a nigh infinitely reusable Utterance that only needs the DC passed once can make Truenamer... troublesome. Because you can pop a large number of buffs to make a massively boosted Utterance that then can be reused a lot more often than it should. Good catch with the Competence bonus, otherwise there`d be the magic item boost on top of how high you can pump the Evoker stat, which will probably be tied to Truespeach as much as possible, optimally being Intelligence.

[khadgar567]

Can any one share a link for ever present evoker class so we can add our mix and derivatives to it

[Morphic tide]

Can any one share a link for ever present evoker class so we can add our mix and derivatives to it

I thought that Evoker is just a thing this thread uses. At any rate, there's an index of most of the ToR classes on the first page. It seems to be mostly based on Incarnum, in terms of mechanics.

[jamieth]

Can any one share a link for ever present evoker class so we can add our mix and derivatives to it


I thought that Evoker is just a thing this thread uses. At any rate, there's an index of most of the ToR classes on the first page. It seems to be mostly based on Incarnum, in terms of mechanics.
Yep, Evoker is just a general term for "class utilising illuminations-based magic system, as detailed in this thread"~

[Bacchante]

As for the class, it`s a fun thing to look at, probably a monster to play. Mixing metamagic-type things can get out of hand fast, and a nigh infinitely reusable Utterance that only needs the DC passed once can make Truenamer... troublesome. Because you can pop a large number of buffs to make a massively boosted Utterance that then can be reused a lot more often than it should. Good catch with the Competence bonus, otherwise there`d be the magic item boost on top of how high you can pump the Evoker stat, which will probably be tied to Truespeach as much as possible, optimally being Intelligence.
The main thing is that each of the Wordshards can only be used once per encounter; but I see your point there. I built this to play in a game myself with DM permission and I never actually thought of that.

The main thing I used a lot was the Inflection to increase duration to make my Surges and Barriers last longer.

[DalkonCledwin]

Not sure if I am even allowed to post in this thread anymore or not... but needed to ask... are there any rules for this system that enable the use of Union Devices. Since this is clearly modeled after Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha, I would assume there are, but saw no mention of it...

[Morphic tide]

Not sure if I am even allowed to post in this thread anymore or not... but needed to ask... are there any rules for this system that enable the use of Union Devices. Since this is clearly modeled after Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha, I would assume there are, but saw no mention of it...

This is almost certainly a necro, but only the person to necro gets hit with infraction, so I will respond freely. First, a quick Wiki check says that you are slightly wrong on the name. It's either Union-Type Device or Unison Device. Second, there's a wiki you can look at for this (http://tome-of-radiance.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_of_Radiance_Wiki). Third, not that I know of.

Looking at what Unison Devices do, it looks like they boost energy efficiency and maximum output at the cost of limited candidate pools, with the actual Device being a separate creature from the "lord" and able to both survive the death of their "lord" and bond with a new "lord." They also apparently need calibration for specific users, can take over the shared body during "unison," have nasty side effects with "unison" and cause visible changes to the barrier jacket/knight armor.

These facts don't really fit with how Radiant Armaments work. They don't improve Illuminations in any meaningful way, which is the most basic point of Nanoha Devices. Improving magic use. And in the Nanoha series, the Costume equivalent is a spell, not a permanent item.

Given all of this, I think that the setup behind Unison Devices would be best done as part of a directly Nanoha compliant base class that acts mostly as an Artificer equivalent in respect to the other Evoker classes, creating permanent Devices and Cartridges that anyone can use, with Imbuements that allow for reducing Mote costs and using off-list Illuminations, with their Radiant Armaments forcing them to go for an Aura rather than a proper Costume and getting Illuminations that can create Costumes that act as a serious Mote sink if they don't dump Imbuements into reducing the cost.

In this setup, Unison Devices would probably be the result of a chain of Imbuments, costing a crazy amount to create due to said chain of Imbuements and rules for "calibration" to get them to be bonded to a particular Evoker, replacing said Evoker's normal Radiant Armaments feature(s) with a variant feature that integrates the Unison Device and provides the rules for use of the Unison Device.

Of course, I don't actually know enough about this system or its balance points to do it myself.

[DalkonCledwin]

I think I have something that will work, actually. At least it will if I do this using the Pathfinder system... Alternate Multiclass for the Summoner Class, with the Synthesist Archetype and a bit of reflavoring.

[Qwertystop]

Not sure if I am even allowed to post in this thread anymore or not... but needed to ask... are there any rules for this system that enable the use of Union Devices. Since this is clearly modeled after Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha, I would assume there are, but saw no mention of it...

Intelligent Device gets you the mind. Use Companion illuminations for the fairy-size body, if you want it to be active in combat and not just flavor. If you want the body to be more useful in combat, take Radiant Arsenal and Twinned Device, where your second Device is Harmonious. You're certainly not going to be able to get them as fully-active as yourself at the same time, though - that was an intentional balance point in writing Companion Illuminations, and the entire Tome, that the per-round action economy is a critical resource which you cannot cheat. Pick buffs for your Intelligent Device's Intelligent Item powers, and use those plus cartridges for Unison In. Any other limited-use buffs also work well for reserving for "when Unisoned", since that situation already implies things are more serious.

[DalkonCledwin]

The problem with doing it using Companion Illuminations, is that I wanted to have the character in question be capable of utilizing Blast Illuminations, similar to how Hayate Yagami is able to use a large assortment of blasts, but needs a Unison Device to help her aim...

[Qwertystop]

The problem with doing it using Companion Illuminations, is that I wanted to have the character in question be capable of utilizing Blast Illuminations, similar to how Hayate Yagami is able to use a large assortment of blasts, but needs a Unison Device to help her aim...

Refluffing is your friend here. The Companion illumination is necessary for the "Unison Device" to act separately, unless perhaps you find an appropriate Intelligent Item ability. So just make it clear that its assistance, or at least presence, is necessary for use of other Illuminations.

You're not going to be able to get a perfect adaptation of anything cross-setting or from a non-rules-system world to one with well-defined written rules. You're especially not going to be able to get Hayate, who is frankly ridiculous on every level at once, in a game that even pretends at balance.

[DalkonCledwin]

Refluffing is your friend here. The Companion illumination is necessary for the "Unison Device" to act separately, unless perhaps you find an appropriate Intelligent Item ability. So just make it clear that its assistance, or at least presence, is necessary for use of other Illuminations.

You're not going to be able to get a perfect adaptation of anything cross-setting or from a non-rules-system world to one with well-defined written rules. You're especially not going to be able to get Hayate, who is frankly ridiculous on every level at once, in a game that even pretends at balance.

So, if I am understanding what you are saying here... by refluffing, I can make it so that the character has a single Companion Illumination that represents the Unison Device, and through use of that Companion Illumination, and possibly a few other things, the character can still make use of Blast Illuminations, but only when the Companion Illumination is present?

Am I understanding what you are saying correctly?

Also, sorry for the late reply, was thinking over what you had said, trying to figure out if I understood it properly.

[Qwertystop]

So, if I am understanding what you are saying here... by refluffing, I can make it so that the character has a single Companion Illumination that represents the Unison Device, and through use of that Companion Illumination, and possibly a few other things, the character can still make use of Blast Illuminations, but only when the Companion Illumination is present?

Am I understanding what you are saying correctly?

Also, sorry for the late reply, was thinking over what you had said, trying to figure out if I understood it properly.

No. I'm saying that having a Companion active requires actions so you won't be able to have the main character and the Unison Device act at the same time. So you could say that, whenever you're not using the Companion Illumination, the Companion is, dunno, sitting decoratively on your shoulder or something. Talk it out with the DM.

Honestly? A better route would be to have a second player play the Unison Device. They're intelligent, they're independent beings. Then just houserule something based on Fusion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fusion.htm) but tweaked to be more relevant to Evokers, give it to the Unsion Device.

[Scryangi]

Radiance Domain

Your heart shines with an inner light, that of your Goddess' hopes and dreams. You do not gain bonus spells but radiant Illuminations.

Powers granted

Merciful (Ex)
You gain the Merciful ability as a 1st level Champion, meaning that when you deal damage with an attack, spell--even summons--or an Illumination, you may choose to deal non-lethal damage instead with no penalty to attack or damage rolls.

Flash Burst (Su)
As a swift action, you gain temporary motes equal to your cleric level for 1 round, and they can be invested as part of this action, or used for Illuminations. Evoking an Illumination takes the usual actions except for Surges, which can be evoked with a Move action, not a Swift.

You can use this ability a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive, and cost a Swift action each round to activate the ability. If maintaining an Illumination in successive rounds, the Illumination does not end between two uses--so enemies can't just ignore your Barriers by readying an action to pass between the beginning of your round and the evoking of the Barrier again. Companions follow the normal rules, and thus have unlimited duration, until dismissed or destroyed. DC is equal to [10 + half your caster level + Charisma modifier]


Radiant Armament's Reflection (Su)
At level 8, you gain 1 imbuement. When you prepare your Clerical spells, you can designate said imbuement to 1 held armor or weapon. Motes can be invested in it as usual. The imbuement only works when you equip the armor or wield the weapon, and whenever you prepare your Clerical spells again, you can redo your choice, even if the item is no longer in your possession.


Domain Spells: None. Starting with level 1, you can craft Illuminations as if you are a Champion of your cleric level, with the same maximum mote costs, and number Known and Readied. Every time you gain a permanent Cleric level, you can recraft these Illuminations. You do not gain a Mote Pool but can use the motes granted by Flash Burst as if they were in one. If you do gain or have an actual Mote Pool, such as by taking levels in an Evoker class, you can use Flash Burst's temporary motes as if they were part of the Mote Pool--they still do not refresh and are only usable for 1 round.

This is based on Pathfinder's domains. I am debating on whether or not Companions should only last 1 round--and follow the same persisting as with Barriers if done in successive rounds to allow for Greater Attacks. The "Surges take more than a Swift Action" is because Clerics can still cast spells or attack, but regular Evokers can do that too. Still, better to err on the side of caution, as Cleric spells might be a lot stronger than Illuminations.

Please let me know what you think. ♥

[jamieth]

I'm not an expert, but I see a couple of issues here...

1. 8th level ability, I think, doesn't really work - at least the "imbue motes" part - without actual Eviker levels, since Radiance Cleric must spend a Swift each round to access the Mote pool, so can never use that Swift action to Imbue.

2. I'm... not sure a full-CL Evoking, usable infinite number of times per day, is anything near the power level of the 1st level domain ability... at its worst, a Blast Illumination is a "Fireball at will, with no CL limit". And while actual high-level spells are certainly stronger, gicing a Cleric access to dishing that much damage without ever using its actual resources is flat out broken.

If I might offer a suggestion, remove the mote pool entirely and make every use of Crafted Illumination cost a use of Channel Energy?

[Scryangi]

I'm not an expert, but I see a couple of issues here...

1. 8th level ability, I think, doesn't really work - at least the "imbue motes" part - without actual Eviker levels, since Radiance Cleric must spend a Swift each round to access the Mote pool, so can never use that Swift action to Imbue.

2. I'm... not sure a full-CL Evoking, usable infinite number of times per day, is anything near the power level of the 1st level domain ability... at its worst, a Blast Illumination is a "Fireball at will, with no CL limit". And while actual high-level spells are certainly stronger, gicing a Cleric access to dishing that much damage without ever using its actual resources is flat out broken.

If I might offer a suggestion, remove the mote pool entirely and make every use of Crafted Illumination cost a use of Channel Energy?

Huh? But I foresaw all these things. You can invest motes into the imbuement as part of the same swift action as gaining the motes. I demoted Surges to move and standard actions so that it wouldn't be a free action to use them, whereas imbueing technically is here. I only gave half the normal mote pool--motes equal to your level thus--so you had to chose between having an energized imbuement or an illumination. And it can't be used infinitely, only 1/day/level. So you lose access to 9 domain spells, but do gain a permanent imbuement.

Reduce the number of available illuminations? Is 1/day/level still too much?

[jamieth]

Huh? But I foresaw all these things. You can invest motes into the imbuement as part of the same swift action as gaining the motes. I demoted Surges to move and standard actions so that it wouldn't be a free action to use them, whereas imbueing technically is here. I only gave half the normal mote pool--motes equal to your level thus--so you had to chose between having an energized imbuement or an illumination. And it can't be used infinitely, only 1/day/level. So you lose access to 9 domain spells, but do gain a permanent imbuement.

Reduce the number of available illuminations? Is 1/day/level still too much?

Oh, sorry, missed the sentence about it being useful "a number of rounds per day equal to level" :blush: My mistake. With that limitation, it's probably fine.

Still not seeing anything saying you can Imbue as the part of gaining the motes. Radiant Armament's Reflection says "Motes can be invested in it as usual." Investing motes as usual costs a Swift action. Right, it's in the Flash Burst's description. I retract my questions, then :-)

A couple more things: which stat does Cleric use for the Illuminations' save DC? Cleric's usual Wisdom, or Champion's usual Charisma?

(Also, it's a nitpick, but "except for Surges, which can be evoked with a Move or Standard action, not a Swift. " is probably redundant, since you can always trade a Standart for a Move; also, some Components allow, frex, Blasts to be used as things other than Standart actions, so I'd just leave the point about Surges being Move actions for the Radiant Cleric, and remove the remainder about Barriers, Blasts and Companions)

[Scryangi]

A couple more things: which stat does Cleric use for the Illuminations' save DC? Cleric's usual Wisdom, or Champion's usual Charisma?

(Also, it's a nitpick, but "[/COLOR]except for Surges, which can be evoked with a Move or Standard action, not a Swift. " is probably redundant, since you can always trade a Standart for a Move; also, some Components allow, frex, Blasts to be used as things other than Standart actions, so I'd just leave the point about Surges being Move actions for the Radiant Cleric, and remove the remainder about Barriers, Blasts and Companions)

DC, I would say Charisma, just so the cleric isn't single attribute dependent, and to give synergy with Turn Undead or Channel Energy depending on the edition of the game. Melee clerics can use Assault Blast or barriers and buffing surges without the need for saves, caster clerics...Ah, maybe they would need the buff in 3.5 and it should be Wisdom. What do you think?

I should remove the part about Surges being able to be used as standard actions, but mostly tried to be as inclusive as I could, so people new to the homebrew wouldn't have to look things up. And without mentioning Companions' duration, it wouldn't be clear if companions would vanish after 1 round, or if you really can just activate this ability once in the morning yet have a companion all day long--which you can so at the least you get a free mount.

*edit* So what I should do is make sure the 1/day/level limit is on top so the reader reads this with that in mind. I modeled it after the Pathfinder SRD but that might be a big mistake here. The design philosophy is that similar to Channel Energy, a few times per day the cleric can channel radiant energy from her goddess. She does not have her own radiant energy, for if she was, she would be an Evoker, which she isn't and that's why she doesn't have a Mote Pool, not even an empty one. She can have the right channeling patterns in her mind/spirit/whatever, and thus can have Illuminations readied, but she lacks the ignited heart of a real evoker character.

*edited my edit* Actually it already was on top. Do you think it's unclear?

[jamieth]

DC, I would say Charisma, just so the cleric isn't single attribute dependent, and to give synergy with Turn Undead or Channel Energy depending on the edition of the game. Melee clerics can use Assault Blast or barriers and buffing surges without the need for saves, caster clerics...Ah, maybe they would need the buff in 3.5 and it should be Wisdom. What do you think?

I should remove the part about Surges being able to be used as standard actions, but mostly tried to be as inclusive as I could, so people new to the homebrew wouldn't have to look things up. And without mentioning Companions' duration, it wouldn't be clear if companions would vanish after 1 round, or if you really can just activate this ability once in the morning yet have a companion all day long--which you can so at the least you get a free mount.

*edit* So what I should do is make sure the 1/day/level limit is on top so the reader reads this with that in mind. I modeled it after the Pathfinder SRD but that might be a big mistake here. The design philosophy is that similar to Channel Energy, a few times per day the cleric can channel radiant energy from her goddess. She does not have her own radiant energy, for if she was, she would be an Evoker, which she isn't and that's why she doesn't have a Mote Pool, not even an empty one. She can have the right channeling patterns in her mind/spirit/whatever, and thus can have Illuminations readied, but she lacks the ignited heart of a real evoker character.

*edited my edit* Actually it already was on top. Do you think it's unclear?

I'd say insert a paragrapth break in front of "This ability can be used for a number of rounds...", would make it stand out more.

As for Evoker stat, I think Cha would fit a cleric just fine, matching the Channel Enegry; it just needs to be explicitely stated.

[Scryangi]

When I started reading the Tome of Radiance last week, I couldn't figure out what the point was behind Stargazer. There had to be one, because it had years of development in it, but I couldn't find it. I had made as test character a lv 5 Champion, a paladinesque character that walks into the story as a wandering hero ready to go wherever her goddess wishes, and was ready for anything. And I found out she really was ready for everything. She was intending to go Radiant Armourer and couldn't find any reason to go Stargazer. She had a bow, and thus DPS through Assault Blast and full attacks. She had a lance, thus melee, reach, and maybe even a shield bonus.

As Illuminations she took Assault Blast, so she had damage both ranged and melee. She had a heal, and she had a beam attack. And that was when she ran out of things she needed and started going for "just in case" things already. Thus 1 Assault that ignored hardness.

She wanted something that would protect her from rain and sandstorms, and didn't really find anything, so eventually settled on a Breath Zone so she could try blowing the rain away. Her DM said that thing was ridiculous but she insisted since at least it was something she didn't have a way to do yet and you never know when you need wind. She found uses by blowing a hole in the sand to hide during sandstorms and cover the hole with a canvas, or blow away gas. And after that, she still had a slot open for a new Illumination. She made a Lure, which she didn't really see a use for but you never know.

So then I looked back at the Stargazer and wondered just what its point was. There aren't so many unique Illuminations as to be warrant switching them out. My Champion already had plenty of on demand versatility through switching out imbuements and with Twinned Device and its derivatives. She had more motes than it, due to her limit boosts and cartridges, and thanks to those she could take Focused Talent: Blasts and have more DPS too. The exclusive Components like Volatile were rarely needed since battles tend to not have clumps of enemies, but if she really needed it there was Luminous Tinker. Yet, I was convinced there had to be a use for Stargazer. It wasn't skill monkey, since that was Empath, so eventually I concluded these things:

-Stargazers are meant to combine Complex Formula with an Implement device.
-Use Aura costume and use a shield or even ask for Blazing Aegis.
-Should use her Known but not Readied illuminations for a collection of companions such as mounts and spares in case 1 is destroyed.
-Could have a Surge that suppresses the paralyzed condition and with 5 minutes of work, ready that one while paralyzed and only take it out when needed (it's a mental action :P)
-Could wear a Heavy costume and shield to give her AC to her companions.


Any thoughts or anecdotes on why Stargazers are so unique?

[YuweaCurtis]

Oh wow, this is still going strong... Sorry fangirling. In that case I may have to make another attempt to use.

[sreservoir]

So then I looked back at the Stargazer and wondered just what its point was. There aren't so many unique Illuminations as to be warrant switching them out. My Champion already had plenty of on demand versatility through switching out imbuements and with Twinned Device and its derivatives. She had more motes than it, due to her limit boosts and cartridges, and thanks to those she could take Focused Talent: Blasts and have more DPS too. The exclusive Components like Volatile were rarely needed since battles tend to not have clumps of enemies, but if she really needed it there was Luminous Tinker. Yet, I was convinced there had to be a use for Stargazer. It wasn't skill monkey, since that was Empath, so eventually I concluded these things:

-Stargazers are meant to combine Complex Formula with an Implement device.
-Use Aura costume and use a shield or even ask for Blazing Aegis.
-Should use her Known but not Readied illuminations for a collection of companions such as mounts and spares in case 1 is destroyed.
-Could have a Surge that suppresses the paralyzed condition and with 5 minutes of work, ready that one while paralyzed and only take it out when needed (it's a mental action :P)
-Could wear a Heavy costume and shield to give her AC to her companions.

Any thoughts or anecdotes on why Stargazers are so unique?

First of all, a few notes:


It's actually pretty hard to use Focused Talent (Blasts). It doesn't increase the mote limit on your individual illuminations, so you'd need two standard actions. The other two are easier to use by using readied actions to trade down from standard, but if you want to use two blasts you're going to have to get your other standard action elsewhere.
Specifics of your campaigns aside, Fireball is p iconic and that's the shape Champion lacks... bu yes, Luminous Tinker will take care of that
Stargazers are probably the worst candidate for using Implement/Harmonious devices, since they're the only ones actually in a position to use all their actions on illuminations, and, conversely, using a full-round on a blast and then a swift on a surge leaves half the mote pool with nothing to do. It can work with investment in Primal, but Champion is a better choice for that niche. It's more useful for an Empath to save motes on a persona change.
(Harmonious sort of a has a niche in letting you Complex Formula a known-but-not-readied companion out and still do greater attacks, but the action economy is still not playing to the Stargazer's precious few strengths.)


Anyway, this conversation has indeed come up before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258654-Tome-of-Radiance-Mastering-the-Power-of-Love-and-Justice&p=19578731&viewfull=1#post19578731), and personally I think Stargazers have gotten the short end of the stick...

Some changes occurred since when the Stargazer (then Zodiac) was designed which have eroded at its niche, I suppose.

The obvious one is that the Empath was written after the Stargazer, and pretty much took over both skills and having a stock of utility illuminations, due to the persona-switching mechanic making all utility illuminations available pretty much whenever, while carrying enough in innate+one persona to have no particular trouble without switching. This is the big issue, I think: Empath just covers too much ground as simultaneously the skillmonkey, utility belt, and optionally some selection of trapmonkey, healer, FWOBF (except with just slightly fewer bonus feats, from Changing Heart), transportation, and some other stuff, while retaining all the general evoker stuff. And while the Champion carves out a niche with unique access to cartridge effects, the Stargazer's defining features are basically "illuminations, but more", which doesn't feel much like a feature...

A second point of note is that at one point, the champion also had an "illuminations readied" progression of level/3+1, which is tight enough to actually force a few wasted actions at low levels, whereas the current progression of just as many readied as the stargazer only means you can't pack in as much utility, and there's not much of that to begin with. Also, the Limit Boost ability was formerly linked to expending cartridges, so the Champion couldn't have all relevant imbuements charged for basically an entire encounter and separately burn cartridges for effect; you'd get one charged per round, sustaining an extra at 8th and 16th, and until 12th level it'd be the one corresponding to the cartridge you used.

Meanwhile, the Stargazer has stayed pretty much the same, so with the other classes stepping on her toes, what does the Stargazer even have left...


The Stargazer's main schtick seems to be, in principle, delivering the biggest round 1 novas. With an initiative bonus based off her casting stat, she's usually going high on initiative, and her opening book looks like dropping a full-power illumination or complex formula on every action. And then doing it again on round 2. Loses steam a bit of steam t3 as Luminous Reservoir can't keep up though.
This is more useful if you routinely find occasion to drop a complex formula barrier and a surge t1, which isn't necessarily hard but which options are useful are going to be party- and campaign-dependent.
Conversely, the Stargazer has the most flexibility wrt how many motes to invest in armaments; it affects how many rounds she can fall back on Luminous Reservoir to toss out full-power illuminations anyway, instead of requiring an array of lower-cost illuminations to fill out the gaps. Too bad she doesn't actually get that many of these.
The Boundless Creativity feat, which lets you actually pull out rarely-used utility. This would be more useful if there were enough illumination options that you couldn't just have all the useful ones. As it is, it's mainly usable for Purity shuffling, Attuned/Specialized, and maybe pulling up a really niche illumination effect that you wouldn't normally bother with (Consumption... which I don't think even works as intended; without Contagion's "strikes immediately" clause, it's just barely ever going to be relevant, but with it you're doing ability damage at level 1...)


Overall, it's ... not much. Stargazer wants to be the "caster" of the bunch, but there's just not enough to differentiate its "casting" features; it just gets more. Bigger illuminations, more of them, some meaningless variety, and basically no other options. A few quickie comments while I'm looking at it:


Luminous Reservoir is hiding a lot of dead levels. Basically its whole effect is 1.5(EL+1)m floating, and at a multiple of EL it merely maintains relevance without adding anything; you actually have nine dead levels. Bottomless Reservoir expands that to 2.5EL, which brings us up to three round of sustained max-power illuminations, which is actually only one extra round but feels closer to enough of the time to be your role than just two, since the discretionary-ness goes up quite a lot at that point. Rather than have the feat, it might've been better to just have the feature be 6m at 3rd and +5m at each odd, and just get rid of the feat.
Meanwhile the actual features, shoved in the gaps between Luminous Reservoir, wind up coming pretty at odd times; Astral Celerity is neat, but maybe a bit too early; Shining Schemata is in the right place for what it is, but what it is is either marginal or tremendously broken; Sagacity is coming very late for such a fundamentally mundane mostly-flavour feature which still costs skill points to make you a bit more SAD at face-ing that up until this point was totally not your job, and Grace of Aeons is, well ... if you'd played an Empath, you'd have Will off your casting stat and you could have all good saves whenever you want...
Change Consumption something like this:

Consumption
To an evoker, light is life, and wonder, and beauty untold. But such radiance can be an awful thing to those who have not been touched by its power - a ghastly-bright inner fire that consumes their very souls. The target of the surge must make a Fortitude save or contract a supernatural illness known as Radiant Wasting, the result of a shard of tainted light embedded deep in their essence. [s]This functions just as any other supernatural disease,Radiant Wasting strikes immediately, with a save DC equal to the evoker's illumination save DC, an incubation period of one day, andbut otherwise functions just as any other supernatural disease, and has no infection vector beyond use of this surge. Radiant Wasting deals 1d4 damage to one ability score, chosen by the evoker when she crafts an illumination with this component. For every 4m of this illumination's cost, she may select an additional ability score to deal 1d4 damage to, or increase the damage to an already selected ability by +2. Radiant Wasting may be cured like any other disease, but effects that emulate diseases (such as the spell Contagion) are unable to mimic it: Radiant Wasting's symptoms are too volatile, and too closely tied to individual evokers, to be reproduced with any sort of coherency. An individual who contracts Radiant Wasting from a surge with this component retains their affliction even after the surge's duration would otherwise end.

This would makes the effect useful for more than a bizarre hard-to-deny easily-treated not-quite-poison with no immediate effect... Doing nothing at low mote cost is consistent with most of the other surge effects, and at level 4 it's actually reasonable to do some real ability damage, cf. Chill Touch vs the penalty rays at 1st, Ego Whip, Lesser Restoration and 2nd, while Contagion actually gives you more choices at 3rd. Actually, it might just be better to reword on based on Contagion.


And then there's that one thing Stargazer can do that isn't just "but more", but differently problematic:


Shining Schemata is, fundamentally, broken, and lets you run a half-baked artificer, slightly better than warlock 12 but not in any of the ways that matter.
The interaction between Stargazer 6 and Frostfell Maven 5 is ... unclear. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258654-Tome-of-Radiance-Mastering-the-Power-of-Love-and-Justice/page37&p=19983098#post19983098) Specifically, it's arguable that Frostfell Artistry (Empowerment) applies to all item creation, since it isn't restricted to only items that require Craft Magical Arms and Armor, and there are items that do require multiple item creation feats, whose requirements you have to satisfy separately, like the Caster's Shield, which, as written, would seem to let you incidentally craft scrolls up to 3rd level as long as you also have Scribe Scroll.
Normally as an evoker you can't actually pick up crafting feats without a lot of extra work, but since you have Shining Schemata, you definitely have Scribe Scroll, and if interpreted broadly that means you can spend 10 minutes per 7k of base price and basically create any item you took the feats for, which sounds lot like "cast any 9th-level spell in 10 minutes, plus also incidentally an 8th, a 2nd, and a 1st" to me. You might want to pick up CWI for the weird stuff, but otherwise you're p covered.
(And if you don't get to read it that way ... well, then you don't need the Stargazer and the Empath entry is easier, but it turns out there's this specific weapon, the Luck Blade, which can be crafted to contain 3 wishes, and requires only CMAA and some spells. You can ignore the gold and XP costs and craft it in 210 minutes. If it melts away when you let go of it, you don't care, you got your wishes and you wished for a scroll with six copies of shapechange, because hey, remember the sidebar that indicates that scrolls contain multiple spells?
... I don't think this one is even arguable, the Frostfell Maven just ... can do this. As its 5th-level class feature. Which is gained at 10th level with a standard entry.)


... in summary, yeah, Stargazers are probably a bit lackluster.

(Also what the heck am I saying about quickie comments, this took me hours.)

[Chronologist]

So I've been working on a 5E conversion of the Tome of Radiance, you can find what I've done so far here (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/r1KzSR-s4). The goal of the homebrew so far is the following:
- Convert the Champion, Stargazer, and Empath classes
- Convert the prestige classes into archetypes for the above three classes
- Simplify and rebalance Illuminations
- Adjust the scaling of Armaments and Imbuements
- Make Personae a little more interesting and class-defining

I've reached out to Selinia but haven't gotten a response back regarding this homebrew. I'd love some feedback on it, it's very much a work in progress.

[Crisis21]

So I've been working on a 5E conversion of the Tome of Radiance, you can find what I've done so far here (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/r1KzSR-s4). The goal of the homebrew so far is the following:
- Convert the Champion, Stargazer, and Empath classes
- Convert the prestige classes into archetypes for the above three classes
- Simplify and rebalance Illuminations
- Adjust the scaling of Armaments and Imbuements
- Make Personae a little more interesting and class-defining

I've reached out to Selinia but haven't gotten a response back regarding this homebrew. I'd love some feedback on it, it's very much a work in progress.

I'd advise starting a new thread dedicated to your rework if you want feedback.