Spellthief vs Paladin

[Cranthis]

You can read the title, guess who won. Both were level 4.

[Flickerdart]

Depends on any number of factors. The classes don't even do the same thing, so it's not even just an issue of who can get numbers more easily. The Spellthief is an anti-caster sneak and trap monkey (who, with Trickster variant, can have a decent arsenal of spells by this level). The Paladin is a good mounted charger and decent front-liner, and has a metric ton of ACFs. They perform their roles in completely different environments, and without knowing all the details, saying "Paladin won" or "Spellthief won" is meaningless.

[Cranthis]

The spellthief won. I cast armor lock.

[LTwerewolf]

That's not really all that powerful of a spell. With a low dex (most paladins dump it), and a high armor bonus, you're not doing much other than slowing him down. with a composite longbow he shouldn't be all that hindered.

Not only that did the paladin have a terrible con and charisma? if not he really should have made that save. Attended items get the user's save.

[ThiagoMartell]

Spellthief is quite good on 1x1 situations, with access to Staggering Strike and spelltheft. I was in a group once where we escaped a castle and the Spellthief stayed behind to cover our escape. She ended up killing a major antagonist as she made her last stand. She died (I think she was low on hp and bear's endurance expired, or something like that) but it was really awesome.

[blazinghand]

As the other posters have pointed out, there are problems with both your premise and your conclusion.

The premise is flawed. I mean, I could ask a question like "Level 3 Rogue vs Level 3 Wizard, who wins?" and you'd have no idea. What if the Wizard had 6 con and the Rogue won initiative? Or what if the Wizard had Scorching Ray prepared and the Rogue had like 12 hp? So little information is given that it's impossible to know.

The conclusion is just as bad. Armor Lock is a cool spell, but how the did the Paladin fail a Fortitude Save given that he has Divine Grace and decent Con? Did he also not have any ranged weapons? What happened after the spell was cast?

Really, I think you've failed to understand what exactly people's criticisms have been and why they are so strong.

[Spuddles]

The conclusion is just as bad. Armor Lock is a cool spell, but how the did the Paladin fail a Fortitude Save given that he has Divine Grace and decent Con?

I'm guessing a bad roll?

[Cranthis]

Ok, no guys. I mean this actually happened. The paladin attacked first. Something happened and we got knocked apart, exactly 3 squares between us. I cast armor lock, he moves so there is one square still between. I take my five foot step and full attack with two sickles. Paladin goes down, coup de grace. He missed the fortitude save for armor lock by 1 point.

[LTwerewolf]

Ok, no guys. I mean this actually happened. The paladin attacked first. Something happened and we got knocked apart, exactly 3 squares between us. I cast armor lock, he moves so there is one square still between. I take my five foot step and full attack with two sickles. Paladin goes down, coup de grace. He missed the fortitude save for armor lock by 1 point.

How was it a coup de grace? At no point have you described a moment where the paladin was helpless.

[Cranthis]

He went down. Out. Unconscious. etc etc. Insert more synonyms here.

[LTwerewolf]

A coup de grace is an actual mechanic in the game, so it's not interchangeable with those other things.

[ThiagoMartell]

A coup de grace is an actual mechanic in the game, so it's not interchangeable with those other things.

He knocked the paladin out, then he used a coupe de grace.
Why is everyone nitpicking so much? :smallconfused:

[blazinghand]

How was it a coup de grace? At no point have you described a moment where the paladin was helpless.

The paladin was probably helpless while he was unconscious and dying, but not yet dead.

[Zaq]

I'm very sad that you were both only level 4, because a Spellthief can totally steal a Paladin's special mount. But alas, if there is no special mount to steal, then the moment is wasted.

[Cranthis]

Yeah, I would have stolen his lay on hands too, as i would have had 2d6 to trade in.

[Alaris]

A coup de grace is an actual mechanic in the game, so it's not interchangeable with those other things.

If I'm reading right, I think he means this.

1. Paladin Moves to 1 square away from Spellthief.
2. Spellthief five foot steps, and then full attacks, dealing enough damage to knock the Paladin unconscious.
3. Paladin bleeds.
4. Spellthief performs Coup De Grace, killing the Paladin.

Correct me if I am wrong, of course.

[Cranthis]

Correct Alaris

[Flickerdart]

So what exactly is the point of this thread, other than to say "I cast Armour Lock on a Paladin and he happened to fail the save"?

[Ernir]

So what exactly is the point of this thread, other than to say "I cast Armour Lock on a Paladin and he happened to fail the save"?
I believe this question, burning at the back of the minds of our esteemed OldPosters, is the real source of the poorly veiled irritation we have seen in the thread so far. :smalltongue:

[Studoku]

Now I'm wondering how a level 4 Paladin died to a full attack from a spellthief. Even with the 1d6 sneak attack and assuming that both attacks hit what I'd expect was 15-18 AC (especially with the -2 from dual-wielding), how did that bring down 4d10 + reasonable con?

[LTwerewolf]

Now I'm wondering how a level 4 Paladin died to a full attack from a spellthief. Even with the 1d6 sneak attack and assuming that both attacks hit what I'd expect was 15-18 AC (especially with the -2 from dual-wielding), how did that bring down 4d10 + reasonable con?

Double crit maybe?

[blazinghand]

Now I'm wondering how a level 4 Paladin died to a full attack from a spellthief. Even with the 1d6 sneak attack and assuming that both attacks hit what I'd expect was 15-18 AC (especially with the -2 from dual-wielding), how did that bring down 4d10 + reasonable con?

It's simple. The paladin just rolled 1s on all his hit dice after level 1, so he had probably 19 hp. And the Spellthief rolled all 5s and 6s on his damage dice.

[Cranthis]

The paladin had about 29 total hp, and for some reason or another was at 24.

[LTwerewolf]

The paladin had about 29 total hp, and for some reason or another was at 24.

So you rolled 4d6 and got all 6's? Also your paladin seems to have no constitution score to speak of. Getting at least 8 hp/level shouldn't be that hard to do, and if he can't then he really needs to address his attribute allocation.

[Studoku]

So you rolled 4d6 and got all 6's? Also your paladin seems to have no constitution score to speak of. Getting at least 8 hp/level shouldn't be that hard to do, and if he can't then he really needs to address his attribute allocation.

Looks like a con of 12, or 14 and some abysmal rolling, which isn't abnormal for more MAD classes. It'd still need some high rolls to one-shot that with 4d6 though. Either there's something boosting the spellthief's damage tht we haven't been told about or the spellthief won because:

The paladin rolled badly on his hp rolls and was injured to begin with
He won initiative
The paladin failed his save for a save-or-suck targetting his strongest save
He hit with two attacks, despite each attack needing double figures to hit
He rolled incredibly well for damage

Which leads me to another question- in what way do you consider a long sequence of lucky rolls to be worth bragging about?

[WarKitty]

I believe this question, burning at the back of the minds of our esteemed OldPosters, is the real source of the poorly veiled irritation we have seen in the thread so far. :smalltongue:

Yeah pretty much. Seems to be more a case of happening to hit a few lucky rolls combined with poor strategy on the part of both players.

[papr_weezl8472]

in what way do you consider a long sequence of lucky rolls to be worth bragging about?

I was confused by this thread up until I read this. The spellthief wins by a very narrow margin requiring lucky rolls. The spellthief reflects on this happenstance and forms the impression that this circumstance (a spellthief beating a paladin, both at level 4) is surprising and noteworthy. Thus, the OP, to which presumably the predicted response was "the paladin".

[navar100]

So what exactly is the point of this thread, other than to say "I cast Armour Lock on a Paladin and he happened to fail the save"?

Probably wants to brag he killed a paladin single handed. Paladins are poopy heads anyway.

[blazinghand]

Probably wants to brag he killed a paladin single handed. Paladins are poopy heads anyway.

The real thing to brag about is that Paladins are a Tier 1 class, so even beating a weakened Paladin is pretty impressive.

[Teh_das]

On a bit of a tangent, does anyone know if there's a good handbook for a spellthief out there? I've wanted to play one for a while, but I've never really known much to how they can be built.

[Cranthis]

On a bit of a tangent, does anyone know if there's a good handbook for a spellthief out there? I've wanted to play one for a while, but I've never really known much to how they can be built.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44299

[TuggyNE]

The real thing to brag about is that Paladins are a Tier 1 class, so even beating a weakened Paladin is pretty impressive.

Totally not true! They sacrificed the vast power of a familiar for the flavorful Special Mount feature, so they can't be T1!

[Killer Angel]

I'm impressed this thread reached the second page.
Ah, I get it: initial doubts about the topic and subsequent sarcasm! Can I join the fun?


Totally not true! They sacrificed the vast power of a familiar for the flavorful Special Mount feature, so they can't be T1!

That's why they're a solid high T2!

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm impressed this thread reached the second page.
Ah, I get it: initial doubts about the topic and subsequent sarcasm! Can I join the fun?



That's why they're a solid high T2!

Actually, with some -heavy- optimization the paladin's unusually high op-ceiling can just get him up to T2, or at least the top of T3 by a fair margin.

But yeah, who would willingly give up the almighty familiar class feature. I mean, it's like having 2 characters!