Duskblade Feats

[Cranthis]

Duskblade level 5. I have Spellcasting prodigy, but I need 4 more feats. I have a few ideas, but I would like you guys suggestion.

[Allanimal]

Knowledge devotion
Versatile spellcaster
Arcane strike
Power attack

[Spuddles]

Arcane Strike + Power Attack are awesome together. Turn some extra to hit into more damage.

[ThiagoMartell]

You don't qualify for Arcane Strike at Duskblade 5.

[Cranthis]

[QUOTE]You don't qualify for Arcane Strike at Duskblade 5.[/QUOTE

That is correct. I still have 2 available feats, suggestions are fine, and I will probably scour my database of books for them.

[Feytalist]

Battlecaster Offense is actually not a bad feat for a low level Duskblade. With arcane channel, you can get both tactical advantages in one turn. Sure, it only activates on the second turn, but if you're spoilt for feat choice, a +1 to attack and +1 to spell DC isn't all that bad.

[Zdrak]

Versatile Spellcaster is excellent, to make use of those 0-level slots for moar Shocking Grasps.
Power Attack is a staple, can't go wrong with it.
Knowledge Devotion is amazing for a class with all Knowlede skills in-class - be sure to combine it with Collector of Stories skill trick.
Deceptive Illumination (Drow of the Underdark) is interesting, to upgrade the fairly useless Dancing Lights into a much more useful Silent Image.

[ThiagoMartell]

By RAW, Collector of Stories does not combo with Knowledge Devotion. The Knowledge check for KD is one thing, the Knowledge check to identify monsters is different. Yes, silly, but RAW.

Zdrak mentioned Deceptive Illumination, one of those feats from Drow of the Underdark allow you to get hypnotic pattern, which is just as badass.

[Ianuagonde]

And another vote for Power Attack. There is a reason almost all melee fighters get it. A Duskblade has an extra trick up his sleeve: at level 5, you got Quick Cast 1/day. That means you can cast True Strike and attack in the same round.

For a level 5 Duskblade with Power Attack, that means +15 on your attack (20 from TS, -5 from PA) and +10 damage with a two-handed weapon, on top of what your already doing. You can even add a spell to this attack (Shocking Grasp, most likely), to squeeze the most out of that extra attack bonus. And you will still have a move action left...

[ThiagoMartell]

And another vote for Power Attack. There is a reason almost all melee fighters get it. A Duskblade has an extra trick up his sleeve: at level 5, you got Quick Cast 1/day. That means you can cast True Strike and attack in the same round.

For a level 5 Duskblade with Power Attack, that means +15 on your attack (20 from TS, -5 from PA) and +10 damage with a two-handed weapon, on top of what your already doing. You can even add a spell to this attack (Shocking Grasp, most likely), to squeeze the most out of that extra attack bonus. And you will still have a move action left...

I don't know if burning a quick cast on that is so useful. Even an unbuffed Scorching Ray does an average of 14 damage (potentially more) and two handing means you lack a shield (you won't have an animated shield by 5th level and duskblades don't get shield as a spell). Get a +2 CL boost (from, say, Arcane Thesis or Fiery Burst + Bloodline of Fire) and it's 28 average damage. My random suggestions:
Martial Study - Get a boost or something else, you don't use your swift action every turn as a Duskbloode.
Martial Stance - Not that good at this level, but you can get some golden stuff further on, such as Press the Advantage or Assassin's Stance.
Fiery Burst - Boosts your scorching ray and gives you a free area attack for when you don't want to spend spell slots.
Arcane Disciple - Not as MAD for Duskblades, since you only need Wis 15 at most. Some domains give you good touch spells to channel, others give extra buffs.

[Zdrak]

Unfortunately he can't take Fiery Burst until level 6. At level 3, he still lacks the prereq, unless he burns another feat on Precocios Apprentice. Arcane Thesis is also impossible before level 6.
And Arcane Disciple is problematic for a Duskblade, since, although you add the domain spells to your class list, you don't automatically add them to your known spells list - you still need to waste your very limited known-spells slots on those spells.

[docnessuno]

I don't know if burning a quick cast on that is so useful. Even an unbuffed Scorching Ray does an average of 14 damage (potentially more) and two handing means you lack a shield (you won't have an animated shield by 5th level and duskblades don't get shield as a spell). Get a +2 CL boost (from, say, Arcane Thesis or Fiery Burst + Bloodline of Fire) and it's 28 average damage.

I did some math, and using quickened scorcing ray (with thesis) opposed to a quickened true trike comes with just a 1-5 average damage increase, despite having to waste a feat just to pull that trick off, despite using an higher level spell slot, despite being hampered more by energy resistance /DR and despite having a worse 'scaling'.

Also a duskblade is pretty much required to use a 2h weapon, unless you want to burn a feat on somatic weaponry.

"Mandatory" Feats:
Knowledge devotion
Power attack

"Optional" feats:
Exotic weapon proficiency
Obtiain familiar
Versatile spellcaster
Improved toughness
Extra spell (if your DM allows Sor/Wiz spells to be selected with it)
Weapon focus
Martial study
Anything else you might want for fluff (such as prodigy, unless it's the 3.0 version, wich is actually pretty good)

[Keld Denar]

Duskblades don't get feats at certain levels. They have class abilities at 1, 3, and 9 that are Power Attack, Knowledge Devotion, and Arcane Strike.

[Gwendol]

Yup, PA, versatile spellcaster, and knowledge devotion.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I don't know if burning a quick cast on that is so useful. Even an unbuffed Scorching Ray does an average of 14 damage (potentially more) and two handing means you lack a shield (you won't have an animated shield by 5th level and duskblades don't get shield as a spell). Get a +2 CL boost (from, say, Arcane Thesis or Fiery Burst + Bloodline of Fire) and it's 28 average damage. My random suggestions:
Martial Study - Get a boost or something else, you don't use your swift action every turn as a Duskbloode.
Martial Stance - Not that good at this level, but you can get some golden stuff further on, such as Press the Advantage or Assassin's Stance.
Fiery Burst - Boosts your scorching ray and gives you a free area attack for when you don't want to spend spell slots.
Arcane Disciple - Not as MAD for Duskblades, since you only need Wis 15 at most. Some domains give you good touch spells to channel, others give extra buffs.

He doesn't qualify for assassin's stance until level 10 and this can't get it via feat until 12.

[Cranthis]

You guys are awesome. Took one look at the duskblade spells per day, after looking at versatile spellcaster. Things happened that are inappropriate to say out loud.

[ThiagoMartell]

I did some math, and using quickened scorcing ray (with thesis) opposed to a quickened true trike comes with just a 1-5 average damage increase, despite having to waste a feat just to pull that trick off, despite using an higher level spell slot, despite being hampered more by energy resistance /DR and despite having a worse 'scaling'.

How? :smallconfused:
True Strike allows you to say 'okay, I hit' and adds +10 damage from Power Attack.
Quickened Scorching Ray is a touch attack in a full BAB class, that's 'okay, I hit' as well. It deals an average of 14 damage without thesis. With thesis, that's an average of 28 damage.



Also a duskblade is pretty much required to use a 2h weapon, unless you want to burn a feat on somatic weaponry.

Or you could use light shield + weapon.


He doesn't qualify for assassin's stance until level 10 and this can't get it via feat until 12.
Yeah, that's why I said it's not good at this level.

[Cranthis]

Ok so feats that I (Op) have chosen thus far:

Able Learner
Spellcasting Prodigy
Power Attack
Knowledge Devotion
Battle Caster Offense

[ThiagoMartell]

Unfortunately he can't take Fiery Burst until level 6. At level 3, he still lacks the prereq, unless he burns another feat on Precocios Apprentice. Arcane Thesis is also impossible before level 6.
And Arcane Disciple is problematic for a Duskblade, since, although you add the domain spells to your class list, you don't automatically add them to your known spells list - you still need to waste your very limited known-spells slots on those spells.

Most of the Duskblade list is crap, so you're not missing out on much.

[BerronBrightaxe]

If your dex is decent and willing to go there, you can go the Combat Reflexes, Impr. Trip, Stand Still, some other feat way... In this way you are more a battlefield controle and damage dealer...

Also check the duskblade handbook:
http://dictummortuum.blogspot.nl/2011/08/duskblade-handbook.html

[Vashta]

The feat selection for a Duskblade is not difficult.

As everyone has said Power Attack and Arcane Strike(at whatever level you can take it) are the big two.

Knowledge Devotion is nice but not required.

I would suggest looking ahead for the rest of you feats. For example if you want to progress your spell level beyond 5th you might want to look at the prerequisites for Sublime Chord. Even Divine Crusader might be a good option if you have 19 Cha.

There is a feat in one or two books(I know one of them is Drow of the Underdark) that allows you to wear a heavier class of armor. This might be useful at low levels.

[Alabenson]

How? :smallconfused:
True Strike allows you to say 'okay, I hit' and adds +10 damage from Power Attack.
Quickened Scorching Ray is a touch attack in a full BAB class, that's 'okay, I hit' as well. It deals an average of 14 damage without thesis. With thesis, that's an average of 28 damage.


Or you could use light shield + weapon.

Part of the issue with Scorching Ray is that it deals fire damage, the single most widely resisted energy in the game, which means that later on the spell loses a great deal of it's value. Given that you need to burn a feat to make it competitive with a True Strike enhanced Power Attack-melee strike, I'd say Scorching Ray really isn't a spell a Duskblade should be focusing on.

In general, a Duskblade should be focusing on dealing melee damage augmented through arcane channel and whatever other melee buffing spells he has available. Relying on blasting spells for damage is almost always going to be a poor strategy for a Duskblade, as they lack have neither the spell list nor the availability of feats to really pull this off.
This is also why using a shield is a bad idea: you're trading the Str bonuses for wielding a weapon in two hands and the increased benefit of Power Attack for a small increase in AC.

[Dusk Eclipse]

At low-levels before Arcane channeling and power attack hit their stride, having a shield is not a bad idea, those extra AC points will likely save you at least once during low levels.

[Keld Denar]

Question to the OP...why Able Learner? It doesn't really give you much for a straight classed Duskblade. With Knowledge Devotion, you will have at least 6 knowledges to keep up, along with Concentration and maybe Spellcraft. That's 7 to 8 skills, on a 2+ int budget. Even with an 18 starting Int and being human, that is 7 skill points per level. Not much left over. The only skill I think would bee kind worth it would be dumping cross class ranks in UMD.

So yea, if you don't plan on multicasting, especially if not before 13 (when you get full attack channeling) and you don't plan on putting cross class ranks around, you don't need Able Learner.

[Cranthis]

Its basically a holding place until I choose something better. The game is tomorrow, so I have to have something, but the dm is willing to let me trade a different one, as long as i take it by the next session (after the one tomorrow)

[Cranthis]

Also, to everyone:

There is literally no reason for me to take Arcane strike, once I am able. As a duskblade, if I want to use up a spell slot to do more damage with an attack, I have my class ability.

[Zdrak]

Or, you could use both Arcane Strike and your class ability to deal even more damage! It sounds crazy, I know, but hear me out: by adding two bonuses to your damage, you deal even more damage!

[Cranthis]

Or, you could use both Arcane Strike and your class ability to deal even more damage! It sounds crazy, I know, but hear me out: by adding two bonuses to your damage, you deal even more damage!

I thought about it, but I am allready using a spellstoring weapon. I have to keep in my mind that this build can't make the rest of the group feel useless.

[Keld Denar]

Use both. Duskblades have a LOT of spells. You probably won't use nearly all of then in a day, especial at level 9+ which is when you can take it. You well be burning extra slots to pump out as much magic per round as possible. Channel your 3rd and 4th level spells while Arcane Striking with your 1st and 2nd level slots. It's just more nova, and Duskblades have the endurance for it.

If you need a quick filler feat, might I suggest Quick Recovery from Lords of Madness. Is a neat little feat that keeps Charles out of your head, so to speak. Recovery from stuns and dazes quickly to keep the damage flowing.

[Zdrak]

Three bonuses are even better. And don't worry about making the rest of the group feel useless. Just for comparison, by the time you get Arcane Strike to add a whooping +3d4 to your damage roll, the party Wizard can Dominate your worst enemy with one spell, and the party Cleric can bring the dead back to life. And that's just one spell they can cast out of many per day. Just sayin'.

[Cranthis]

Quick Recovery from Lords of Madness.

That looks good.

[Firechanter]

As it happens, we're in the planning stages for a new game and one of the players wants to play a Duskblade. We both have zero experience with that class.

What combat style should a DB go for? THF or Sword'n'Board?
Is Critfishing worth the effort?

[Cranthis]

What combat style should a DB go for? THF or Sword'n'Board?
Is Critfishing worth the effort?

Two handed fighting is your best bet, but if you are starting at or past level 13, two weapon fighting is actually usable with the arcane channel ability, since at that point you can use it for full attack rounds.

Critfishing isn't very worth it for any class.

[ThiagoMartell]

Sword and board is not that bad for a Duskblade, actually.

[Cranthis]

Sword and board is not that bad for a Duskblade, actually.

Its not bad, Its just not as good as other choices.

[docnessuno]

Sword and board is not that bad for a Duskblade, actually.

Remember you need a free hand to cast spmatic-component spells. With a THW you can release your grip with one hand as a free action, cast the spell and grip the weapon again as a free action. THF and S&B require somatic weaponry or some other trick to pull it off.

Also the quickened true strike / power attack combo, wich is a staple at duskblade mid levels really works best with a THW.

Finally, while THF works with 13th level channel, it still requires to double up your spell expenditure for Arcane strike, since the feat applies to a single weapon.

[ThiagoMartell]

Its not bad, Its just not as good as other choices.

Depends on your definition of "good". Duskblade lacks any defensive abilities other than being able to wear armor + shield. The extra AC could help, specially before you can afford an animated shield. It can also be used as your off-hand weapon and there are good shield feats (such as Shield Daze).
Power Attack + two-handed weapons deals more damage, yes. Duskblade already deals a lot of damage by default. A shield allows a Duskblade to be more than a glass cannon, by making mooks miss you and acting as a Power Attack buffer between big monsters and your d8 Hit Points.
A few years ago, someone cracked the numbers on a sword + buckler Rogue and a TWF Rogue when it comes to overall damage output, and the sword + buckler Rogue won in the long run since it stayed alive longer. I'm pretty sure it's the same thing between TH Duskblade and S&B Duskblade. YMMV, of course. Just my opinion.

[Cranthis]

Yeah, you are probably right on that, but duskblades should generally avoid being the parties tank, and should make effective use of their second best spell, Dimension hop.

[Firechanter]

Okay, I'll bite. What is their best spell? ^^

[Cranthis]

Okay, I'll bite. What is their best spell? If you had read the whole sentence, you would see the words Dimension Hop

[Firechanter]

But... but... you wrote


make effective use of their second best spell, Dimension hop.
(emp. mine)

Either it's the best or the second best.

[Cranthis]

Oh, sorry I derped. That is their second best. Their very best spell is Vampiric touch. I think I was trying to say their best second level spell, and their second best spell.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Get a Bloodstone weapon for auto-empowered Vampiric touch (you need to load it first; but you can channel another spell and use the bloodstone weapon in the same attack)

[Cranthis]

Get a Bloodstone weapon for auto-empowered Vampiric touch (you need to load it first; but you can channel another spell and use the bloodstone weapon in the same attack)
Definitely. This was one of the first things I used my wealth by level on.

[Firechanter]

Ouuh, cool. Thanks for the info.

Edit:
Another question.
Touch Spells can score Critical Hits.
Do Touch Spells conveyed with Arcane Channeling benefit from any improved Threat Range of the weapon, or do they still only crit on a 20?

If they could "mooch off" the threat range of, say, a Keen Scimitar... hey...

[StreamOfTheSky]

Power Attack
Arcane Strike
Knowledge Devotion
Obtain Familiar
Improved Familiar


Basically those. I still like my duskblade idea of going 3 levels into Dervish PrC, picking up Whirlwind Attack, and using it on the move (dervish dance) with a reach weapon and Duskblade's level 13 ability to apply a touch spell to every attack of a full attack.

Though I suppose you could do it more easily with a Binder dip for Paimon....

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ouuh, cool. Thanks for the info.

Edit:
Another question.
Touch Spells can score Critical Hits.
Do Touch Spells conveyed with Arcane Channeling benefit from any improved Threat Range of the weapon, or do they still only crit on a 20?

If they could "mooch off" the threat range of, say, a Keen Scimitar... hey...

It is debatable; I've seen some people rule extra damage from spells like sneak attack (ie, they don't multiply on a crit hit) and I've seen people who rule that everything is multiplied since weapon-like spells can crit normally.

Personally I would let the spell crit; but only when the spell itself would crit (IE a nat 20 or 19 if the Duskblade took Improved Crtical: Weapon Like spells) if the weapon has a wider threat range and crits on say 18 it would crit the weapon damage+modifiers as normal and deal normal damage spell.

Edit: the Paimon route would need a 3 level dip and a feat, higher class investment than dervish; but I think Paimon's abilities and lesser cost more than make up for it.

[Cranthis]

Hmmm I didnt know touch spells can crit. This is interesting.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If it has an attack roll it can crit (rules for spell are in CArc) unless it is a volley attack ,like Many shot or Scorching ray, on which case it can only crits once.

[Cranthis]

This is most excellent.

[ThiagoMartell]

Paimon > Dervish as a Duskblade dip, that's a given. In such a build, a Swordsage dip for Shadow Blade feat wouldn't hurt. Pump your Dex to the stars above, dual wield short swords, dash through the battlefield channeling your choice of death. For that build, I guess I'd choose xeph as a starting race - xeph burst makes Dance of Death that much deadlier.

Xeph Duskblade 13/Binder 3/Swordsage 1 and you have 3 free levels for fun and games.

Now, I don't have my books on me, but are you guys sure Dance of Death is compatible with Arcane Channeling? Because I think it might require a full-round action, instead of being triggered when you do a full-attack...

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, reading Paimon just now, I see that it isn't called a full attack action. Since arcane channeling lets you use it in a full attack, I don't think strict RAW, paimon does work, unfortunately...

Still think Dervish does, feat heavy and late-game as it is.

[Cranthis]

Aren't Paimon and Dervish vestiges for binding? If you have the option for both, what does it matter?

[ThiagoMartell]

Aren't Paimon and Dervish vestiges for binding? If you have the option for both, what does it matter?

Dervish is not a vestige, it's a prestige class in Complete Warrior.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Paimon is a vestige for binding.

Dervish is a PrC that came out way back with the Complete Warrior supplement. It requires a ton of crappy feats to enter, but was actually flavorful and well balanced enough that even by the end of 3E's lifecycle, it was a decent class for a melee guy.

[Firechanter]

*bump*

A little idea that doesn't warrant a thread of its own, I think:

The Duskblade is typically considered the "low end of Tier 3". To spice it up a little, how about adding an "Advanced Learning" Progression similar to that of the Warmage?
Such as: every time a Duskblade gains access to a new spell level, they can select any one spell from the Sor/Wiz spell list up to the newly attained spell level. This is in addition to their normal Spells Known.

Would you say this makes sense? Or is it unnecessary?

For comparison, in our upcoming game there will be a Duskblade teaming up with a Warblade, a Bardsader, a Swift Hunter (jiriko's homebrew class) and a Cleric. (The Cleric player was told not to overoptimize.)

[Dusk Eclipse]

Well personally I don't think Tier 3 and higher needs any boosts; but it would be definitely a good thing. Of course there are some pretty good spells that will be downright nasty in Duskblade's hand, Shivering touch anyone?

[ThiagoMartell]

I think tweaking the Duskblade's spell list would be better. It needs more spells to channel.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Didn't Roland posted an expanded Duskblade spell list?

Assuming that list is primary Sorc/Wiz based, an expanded knowledge allowing for spells form other lists would be nice (inflic spells aren't that bad if they are accompanied by a power attack)

[Sutremaine]

Well, reading Paimon just now, I see that it isn't called a full attack action.
"All powers granted by vestiges are supernatural in origin, even if they replicate spells or abilities that are not normally considered magical."
"Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless otherwise noted."

--ToM, page 20

Arcane Channeling is performed as either a standard action or part of a full-attack action. Arcane Strike would work with Dance of Death (either version), as it's a free action that boosts your weapon's power for one round, with no requirement that you perform a particular action to use that extra power.

[Grim Reader]

I like a Sand Shaper dip on a Duskblade.

Desert Insight adds a vast number of spells known, but less for the highest levels, so a Duskblade gets most of the benefits. Some are even lower level than on the Sorc/Wiz list, making them even more useful to the Duskblade.