The problem with random treasure

[Darth_Versity]

Now I only prepare treasure that is either a) Requested by a player or I feel need to help a player, b) Plot specific.

Otherwise I have the players roll D% after each encounter to add to the randomness of the horde.

So last night my team of 4 lvl 4's went dungeon crawling. They defeated a load of undead and finished up with a fight against a mummy. They defeat they're foes and gather the treasure horde.

First roll gets 400gp, second gets an Art object and 3rd gets 2 minor magics. Lucky guys, but they only got a scroll and a potion on the items.

The Art however, thats a different story. They roll for an Art object. 100. They roll 2D6 for value. 11.

So now my lvl 4 party has a massive Gold, Diamond and Ruby ring worth 11,000gp and i'm stuck as what to do with that. I mean, where in the nine hells would they go to sell that and what am I going to do once they get the money? I guess I could make a quest behind the selling, but I'm pulling blanks on what to do.

(And as a note, its an E6 game, so no magic marts and very few high lvl characters.)

[Answerer]

Random treasure strikes me as an awful idea all around.

Remember, WBL guidelines are for wealth, not income. If all the players ever find is useless junk that they sell for half-cost, and they cannot find anything worth buying with their gold, they don't count as having that anything like the value of the items found as their wealth. Wealth should only count the items that the players actually use.

[ThiagoMartell]

Random treasure is not supposed to work only that. It's supposed to be rolled beforehand, so you can look at something and think "oh, that's too good/bad, I'll just roll again".
They could use the money on plenty of things. Buying a ship would be cool, for starters. If I remember correctly, a longboat is 10k.

[legomaster00156]

Random treasure is not supposed to work only that. It's supposed to be rolled beforehand, so you can look at something and think "oh, that's too good/bad, I'll just roll again".
They could use the money on plenty of things. Buying a ship would be cool, for starters. If I remember correctly, a longbow is 10k.
I presume you mean a longboat. Only a magic longbow would cost that much.

[Keld Denar]

It could be a MW Composite Longbow with a +96 strength draw (that would require a 182 strength score to string and draw). That comes out to a nonmagical longbow that costs 10,000 g. LOL!

[Amnestic]

It could be a MW Composite Longbow with a +96 strength draw (that would require a 182 strength score to string and draw). That comes out to a nonmagical longbow that costs 10,000 g. LOL!

Worth every copper.

[Doug Lampert]

Now I only prepare treasure that is either a) Requested by a player or I feel need to help a player, b) Plot specific.

Otherwise I have the players roll D% after each encounter to add to the randomness of the horde.

So last night my team of 4 lvl 4's went dungeon crawling. They defeated a load of undead and finished up with a fight against a mummy. They defeat they're foes and gather the treasure horde.

First roll gets 400gp, second gets an Art object and 3rd gets 2 minor magics. Lucky guys, but they only got a scroll and a potion on the items.

The Art however, thats a different story. They roll for an Art object. 100. They roll 2D6 for value. 11.

So now my lvl 4 party has a massive Gold, Diamond and Ruby ring worth 11,000gp and i'm stuck as what to do with that. I mean, where in the nine hells would they go to sell that and what am I going to do once they get the money? I guess I could make a quest behind the selling, but I'm pulling blanks on what to do.

(And as a note, its an E6 game, so no magic marts and very few high lvl characters.)

Last time I read the E6 rules there were NO CHANGES to the DMG rules on city size and purchase limits. Thus pull out your DMG, examine city size and find the one with a wealth limit of 11,000 GP or more. They then need to "quest" for any decent sized city.

Similarly any decent sized city will have the available the magic items that exist in E6, this includes things like a +2 sword, which costs over 8,300 GP by itself.

If there's no magic mart, and no place to sell or buy loot worth as little as 11,000 GP that's your choice, not inherent to E6. E6 is more than capable of handling that level of loot. And if you are not letting them have the magic item purchases that should be available in E6 then you should not be rolling random loot.

Random loot works fine, characters stay roughly on WBL (noting that the WBL rules EXPLICITELY state that it's fine for characters to be out of line for a level or two and that crafting tends to balance losses from selling for half price). But Random loot only works fine for WBL if you use the rest of the system.

[ahenobarbi]

Well nothing stops you from rolling the treasure before session (and as suggested re-rolling if it comes up wrong). Since they got it... you could offer them something nice to have but not game-breaking (a ship, a stronghold, ....).

[navar100]

Use it as an opportunity to introduce wealth as an NPC. You can admit to the players it was a mistake to give them that much at this level, but rather than take it away they "spend" it and join the ranks of the wealthy class. When they travel, they can stay at the finest inns. They don't need to ask "how much?". They don't change any numbers of gps on their character sheets. The rogue can say "I bribe the barkeep for information", and it just happens. You as DM can assume he gave enough. The rogue doesn't subtract anything from his character sheet.

In short, any instance of gp bookkeeping minutiae the party used to need to do no longer need doing. If the party "spent" the 11,000 gp on a stronghold, it is presumed they will get a profit of some sort. That profit doesn't count towards party treasure. That profit is the NPC wealth pocket change the party uses to stay at inn, bribe the barkeep, give a few gold to the beggar, etc. Such wealth cannot be used to buy magic items, create magic items, etc. That still uses the normal party treasure earned through adventuring. Maybe you can allow for purchasing of potions and a few scrolls when the party doesn't have enough normal party treasure if metagame the players agree to pay it back with some future treasure hoard.

This is what my DM did when the party was very, very rich. My character alone was literally a millionaire in gold pieces. Granted this was high level, but the point still works. The stereotype is adventures adventure to get rich. At some point it becomes more than just about that, but becoming wealthy doesn't have to go on the back burner. The fun is in the roleplaying of having achieved the wealth.

[nedz]

A party of level 4s, in E6, are two thirds of the way to being epic.
An 11K piece of Jewellery doesn't seem over the top.

But: if such things are so rare in your world then perhaps you could give it some provenance.
Maybe it is famous ?
Maybe it was stolen ?
Maybe it belonged to someone who has disappeared ?
etc.
So when they come to sell it, this raises a whole heap of questions about how they came upon it.
You could turn this into a plot lead/link quite easily.

[zlefin]

if it's too much money, you could simply say they can't sell it for full price. Full price for a gem of that size you'd have to search quite aways for; if the PCs want to do taht, cool, easy to make quest; if they don't, then they'd have to settle for somewhat less in order to find a buyer and break the gem into a mroe useable currency; they could get as little as half if it'd be hard to trade in your world.
Or just let them run with it, and see what they do with it; without magic marts extra money won't really break anything.

[mcv]

So now my lvl 4 party has a massive Gold, Diamond and Ruby ring worth 11,000gp and i'm stuck as what to do with that. I mean, where in the nine hells would they go to sell that and what am I going to do once they get the money? I guess I could make a quest behind the selling, but I'm pulling blanks on what to do.

Why should you worry about that? It's their ring now. Let them figure out what to do with it. It's a great opportunity to let your players create the adventure for you.

An old school approach like that goes very well with random treasure.

[Flickerdart]

It could be a MW Composite Longbow with a +96 strength draw (that would require a 182 strength score to string and draw). That comes out to a nonmagical longbow that costs 10,000 g. LOL!
What would you even use to make a bow with a draw like that?

[Amidus Drexel]

What would you even use to make a bow with a draw like that?

Ironwood and adamantine cables?? :smallbiggrin:

It would be quite an interesting weapon, to be sure.

[TuggyNE]

What would you even use to make a bow with a draw like that?

Common-sense? No real idea; maybe some sort of mega-compound bow made out of an exotic composite. (I doubt even modern bow-making technology would be up to the task, at least not without making the bow so large and heavy it would impossible for almost anyone to lift.)

RAW? It totally doesn't matter, it just works! :smalltongue:

[mcv]

Perfect if anyone ever wishes for "the most powerful bow in the world".

[Tvtyrant]

The bow would be strung with bridge cable and the actual bow would be made of a small chunk cut out of a force wall (using a very carefully aimed disintegrate.) :smallsmile:

As for the OP's question, I would suggest dropping hints at the next town that King Gemsalot[/SIZE]TM is looking for a suitable wedding gift for his daughter, Princess Silverspoon[/SIZE]TM. The party can go sell it to him, but to do so they have to settle a tax dispute. If there is one thing I learned from Star Wars, everyone loves tax disputes :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

Common-sense? No real idea; maybe some sort of mega-compound bow made out of an exotic composite. (I doubt even modern bow-making technology would be up to the task, at least not without making the bow so large and heavy it would impossible for almost anyone to lift.)

If the user has 182 Strength, I don't think lifting anything is too much of a problem.

[Lapak]

You could give them the opportunity to introduce non-cash rewards. An 11,000 gp item would make a princely gift - so why not give it to one?

A Prince, that is. Or a King. Money is nice and all, but having the goodwill and/or favor of a ruler is often harder to come by. Maybe they'll need quick access to him in the future to warn of an impending Zombie Invasion and raise the army. They could bring up the idea that an Official Adventuring Company is quite the thing for troubleshooting and end up with some real authority to brandish at people as they march around the countryside. Maybe they'll nudge him gently after they clear out the Haunted Castle of Duke Ne'er-Do-Well and mutter under their breath that a new Baron would be just the thing for administering the land around it. The possibilities are endless!

[TuggyNE]

If the user has 182 Strength, I don't think lifting anything is too much of a problem.

That's why I said almost anyone. :smalltongue:

[Answerer]

Use it as an opportunity to introduce wealth as an NPC. You can admit to the players it was a mistake to give them that much at this level, but rather than take it away they "spend" it and join the ranks of the wealthy class. When they travel, they can stay at the finest inns. They don't need to ask "how much?". They don't change any numbers of gps on their character sheets. The rogue can say "I bribe the barkeep for information", and it just happens. You as DM can assume he gave enough. The rogue doesn't subtract anything from his character sheet.

In short, any instance of gp bookkeeping minutiae the party used to need to do no longer need doing. If the party "spent" the 11,000 gp on a stronghold, it is presumed they will get a profit of some sort. That profit doesn't count towards party treasure. That profit is the NPC wealth pocket change the party uses to stay at inn, bribe the barkeep, give a few gold to the beggar, etc. Such wealth cannot be used to buy magic items, create magic items, etc. That still uses the normal party treasure earned through adventuring. Maybe you can allow for purchasing of potions and a few scrolls when the party doesn't have enough normal party treasure if metagame the players agree to pay it back with some future treasure hoard.

This is what my DM did when the party was very, very rich. My character alone was literally a millionaire in gold pieces. Granted this was high level, but the point still works. The stereotype is adventures adventure to get rich. At some point it becomes more than just about that, but becoming wealthy doesn't have to go on the back burner. The fun is in the roleplaying of having achieved the wealth.
This is the best idea I've ever heard from you, navar.

[Firechanter]

I don't understand the problem. I don't know if E6 radically changes the regular WBL, but normally Level 4 PCs are supposed to have a wealth of 9000GP. Level 5 get 13000GP. Per person. Even if you have just a party of three and they manage to fence off the trinket at full price, they still don't exceed their budget, at least not once they have reached level 5.
A larger party size and selling the trinket at 1/2 or even 3/4 list price renders the question a complete non-issue.

But as someone else said, WBL should only count actual _gear_ the PCs actually _use_. If there's no useful equipment in the world they can actually _buy_ with that money (because there is no Ye Olde Magick Shoppe) -- again, what's the problem? Let them do with it whatever they like. Whether it's purchasing a stronghold or just squandering it all on ale and whores. They'll love it!

[Kelb_Panthera]

Seems to me that a non-magical ring with a value like that would be rather important to someone.

Rings were a very big deal back in ye olde days of yore, and for one to be worth many times its weight in gold would mean that it belongs(ed) to a very wealthy, and thus important, person.

Depending on where they found it, you could put something together to make it so that you just rolled a random mcguffin.

[Endarire]

11K split 4 ways is 2750 each. That's about half each character's expected wealth by level and about how much characters are expected to gain when going from level 3 to 4. It's not that big of a deal, unless you intended to keep your PCs poor!

[Fitz10019]

They roll for an Art object. 100. They roll 2D6 for value. 11.

Another drawback of letting the players roll these things (aside from lack of immersion, and eliminating the option to re-roll) is you're automatically giving them a free Appraise check, unless the group is very good about separating OoC information.

[LordBlades]

Another drawback of letting the players roll these things (aside from lack of immersion, and eliminating the option to re-roll) is you're automatically giving them a free Appraise check, unless the group is very good about separating OoC information.

Most groups I know have given up on Appraise and haggling with merchants. It might be fun the first few times, but given the sheer amount of stuff you will find&sell in your adventuring career it tends to get tedious quite quickly.

[Kelb_Panthera]

When I use random treasure (fairly often), I roll it up before the session. I do the same for random encounters, random weather, and pretty much any other random thing that's more or less guaranteed to come up.

This allows me to A) make necessary adjustments 'behind the curtain' and B) look like I'm awesome at improvising. (I actually suck at it, really bad.)

[Firechanter]

Reminds me of a former group where the DM at one point - around level 7-8 allowed each player one roll on the random treasure table. Everyone got to keep what he or she rolled up.

Of course the results varied wildly in worth and value. I think the top scorer by a long shot got a Mantle of Faith (76000GP). I got a lemon, in the form of _one_ Lion Figurine of Wondrous Power (per DMG they come in pairs but I still got only one) - value 8K. Everyone else got stuff worth around 12-27K.
I never sold it, though, and I refused to use it as "Find Traps" as another player suggested. :p

[Darth_Versity]

Well, I was wondering what to do and apparently I didn't need to. The paladin insisted on giving it the church last night as they were on to important a quest and its value would help with the war against an approaching undead army, so whatever its worth won't affect the party. I will need to reward them in game somehow. Maybe i'll have the head priest enchant something for them.

[Ardantis]

Darth~

Great solution! It involved character RP as well as the true value of the ring- people, authority, and a cause greater than the party alone.

I'm inspired to see such great answers worked out between party members and DMs. Makes me feel good about the power of the game, and working together to create a wonderful experience.

I don't know whether or not you used the suggestions in this thread to help guide your decision, but they were fantastic as well and it's always heartwarming to see the playground come together like this.