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CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-17, 10:00 AM
Totally stealing Totally Guy's thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258063) here. Long story short, let's just have some fun and walk through one of the more involved character creation systems out there. It's not Traveller, but it's still pretty hefty, in a fun way.

Background: Burning Wheel (I'm using the latest and greatest iteration of the rules) is a crunchy, Tolkienesque fantasy system. That's about all you need to know. Character creation will come in a series of steps...


Step 1: Concept. Concept always comes first but in this instance it undermines the whole idea of voting it up so we’ll pass this one and see what we get.
Step 2: Choose Lifepaths. We’ll do a series of votes to get through the process bit by bit. We’ll use four lifepaths as they make good starting characters.
Step 3: Stats.
Step 4: Skills.
Step 5: Traits.
Step 7: Q&A for Health and Steel
Step 8: Resources
Step 9: Beliefs and Instincts
Step 10: A name

Let's start with the simplest choices; I'll tally votes separately for each choice.

This character is a (male/female) (dwarf/elf/orc/human).

For reference...

Dwarves are generally (but not always) filthy rich, physically tough, prone to greed, and from a complex society.
Elves are ancient, ethereal, and inherently magic.
Orcs live nasty, brutish, short lives, and are filled with loathing for life and beauty. (they're not Always Chaotic Evil, but being anything but ACE is an uphill battle for an orc)
Humans are varied in culture and skill, and can potentially gain access to Faith magic or Sorcery

Don't gun too hard for any one concept; this is, after all, creation by committee, and I'm also not throwing the whole system out there. You'll be picking things up in pieces. (Seriously, lifepaths are a minigame unto themselves, which is kinda cool. Here, I'll be presenting them in a far more organic method.)

Fenix_of_Doom
2012-10-17, 12:33 PM
If we vote up another dwarf then we can let this character interact with totally guy's character, therefore I vote Dwarf!

Sanguine
2012-10-17, 01:46 PM
I say we go with a Human. I want to see how a different races changes things.

Sodalite
2012-10-17, 02:40 PM
I'll vote for Orc, since I'm up for a challenging life.

Urpriest
2012-10-17, 06:46 PM
Orcs are for fighting and winning.

Amphetryon
2012-10-17, 06:49 PM
Yet another Orc vote

ExtravagantEvil
2012-10-17, 07:41 PM
I'm going to fall in line with a growing majority, and say Orc.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-17, 10:42 PM
Seeing the overwhelming majority...Orc it is! I've never burned up an orc, this should be fun.

So. Orc lives are often nasty, brutish, and short. They live in a brutal society, and many of them don't survive long. Their evil tendencies are partially a product of their cruel environment, and partially a product of the twisted hate that is imbued into their very nature. Though it's still possible for an orc to personally be redeemed...

Anyhow, there are two possibilities to choose from. Do we want our orc to be Born Chattel or Born Great?

(Unlike standard characters, orcs are not limited in lifepaths. However, the more lifepaths they take, the riskier it becomes...there's a little bit of a Traveller element here.)

Amphetryon
2012-10-17, 11:19 PM
Born Chattel, just because.

Xefas
2012-10-17, 11:51 PM
Born Great, because I want to see an Orc Warboss, Burning Wheel style. :smallbiggrin:

Sanguine
2012-10-17, 11:53 PM
Born Great

Zelphas
2012-10-18, 01:01 AM
I would also like to go with Born Great. More versatility there, it seems.

Fenix_of_Doom
2012-10-18, 02:48 AM
Born Chattel. you guys wanted the hard way, you're getting the hard way.

Totally Guy
2012-10-18, 04:07 AM
There is so much oppression in the orc settings. The orcs have way less social mobility than all the others. I'm going to go for Born Great as it opens more doors (Mordor's?:smalltongue:). We'll see more of the setting that way.

ExtravagantEvil
2012-10-18, 04:16 AM
Born Great, for the reasons above.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-18, 10:42 AM
My, my, this thread is starting to pick up! I'll move on to the next phase when I get back to my books, this evening. Though it looks as though we have a winner. As Totally Guy notes, it's a tough route to get to some of the higher-status goodies. The chattel can claw to the top, but not easily.

Preview: once we rack up our fourth lifepath, I'll give a brief overview of our orc's relative strength (which might not be that great), as well as potential future paths, and then people can vote on whether to go on for another lifepath. Doing so risks maiming our orc, but we'll get to increase that orcish experience. It's sort of like Russian Roulette, actually.

Also, I'm still taking votes on male or female.

Urpriest
2012-10-18, 11:39 AM
If it doesn't heavily restrict lifepath choices, female. I don't know how misogynistic BW orcs are, so if this means the character won't be allowed to do anything interesting then change my vote to male.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-18, 02:18 PM
No lifepath restrictions. I believe that the humans have one or two female-only lifepaths (I believe "midwife" is one of them? I'd have to check the books), but the orcs have no such restrictions.

Sanguine
2012-10-18, 02:55 PM
If there are no restrictions then let's go Female.

Sodalite
2012-10-18, 03:20 PM
I was actually going to go with female anyway, but I guess that post didn't make it.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-18, 06:47 PM
Sounds good! A female orc who was Born Great. So, let's see what that opens up for us...

Our orc can undergo The Rites, which must be taken now (or else not at all); this primarily lets her progress into the upper ranks of the military.

She can be a Servant of the Gate, a rather unexalted path which sees her doing lots of physical labor for highers-up. (It's more rewarding, Resource-wise, than The Rites, and it gives you an opportunity to get into the military...)

Alternately, she can branch into the Servant of the Dark Blood subsetting, which is basically the dark orc sorcerers. The only lifepath she can take there is Slave to the Dark.

So, definitely a simple choice; what's the priority to be? (Servant of the Dark Blood can also be entered into later, and if you embark upon that path now, you can always split over into the military path.)

Sanguine
2012-10-18, 07:05 PM
Let's go with The Rites, cause I love me my badass warrior chicks.

Sith_Happens
2012-10-18, 07:07 PM
Definitely Slave to the Dark. Because an orc sorceress born/destined for greatness can only turn out awesome.

Sodalite
2012-10-18, 07:25 PM
I'll take the one-time offer of The Rites over the options of being a Slave to the Dark, which I would definitely like to take later.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-18, 07:29 PM
Mmmm, I'm curious to see whether or not we have a strong point of divergence here.

ExtravagantEvil
2012-10-18, 09:25 PM
The Rite, due to it being a one shot chance to take.

Zelphas
2012-10-18, 11:09 PM
I'm going to go with majority opinion and pick The Rite as well. It sounds interesting.

Xefas
2012-10-19, 01:47 AM
Gonna go with The Rites, as I believe it's the quickest way to get to Warbossitude.

Totally Guy
2012-10-19, 08:57 AM
Slave to the Dark.

Because two wrongs don't make the rites.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-19, 09:36 AM
Ouch. Bad pun. Bad pun.

BTW, I just realized I won't be back to my books until Sunday evening, I'm off to a retreat for the weekend. So...hang in there!

Urpriest
2012-10-19, 04:58 PM
Slave to the Dark, the song of blood beckons...

Amphetryon
2012-10-19, 07:29 PM
The Rites, please. She has the Rite stuff.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-21, 03:44 PM
The Rites it is, ladies and gentlemen! So, then. Let's take a look at where our little orc lass is headed next... (well, perhaps that's not the right terminology...)

Now that our orc has undergone The Rites of orcish initiation, which (judging by some of the skills/traits she picks up) are not terribly pleasant...options open up a little. (Interesting side note: she also gets mental and physical stat boosts from this lifepath.)

Within the Great and Black Setting
She can still become a Servant of the Gate, which is not terribly glamorous, and doesn't benefit her all that much.

She can also become She Who Walks in the Named's Shadow, a member of a lower caste of orcish society, aspiring to join the higher ranks of the Named (those orcs who have earned a proper name). This lifepath will also open up the wolf-rider branch in the Legion.

Headed to the Black Legion
Having been Born Great actually restricts our orc in this case (lifepaths marked "Born Great Ones may not take this path"), although it only really restricts her from some of the "cannon fodder" roles in the Legion. Our orc, having taken The Rites, can jump straight into a few different lifepaths...

She can be a Hatred Bearer, one of the orcs who apparently acts as a sort of herald, inspiring the orcs and frenzying them in hatred.

She can be a Despair Shouter, putting her in charge of the Brazen Horn of Despair, which is blown before and during battle to demoralize the enemy. Quite a cushy job, actually.

Finally, she can be She Who Bears the Lash and Drives Us Ever On, cracking the whip at the underling orcs. This will eventually allow her to boss around big ol' trolls...

Becoming a Servant of the Dark Blood
As noted before, she can begin the very linear ascent, starting as a Slave to the Dark.

Knaight
2012-10-21, 03:48 PM
She Who Walks in the Named's Shadow it is.

The Glyphstone
2012-10-21, 03:54 PM
She Who Bears The Lash and Drives Us Ever On. What sort of Warboss doesn't have trolls to boss around?

Xefas
2012-10-21, 03:56 PM
She Who Walks in the Named's Shadow for me as well.

Totally Guy
2012-10-21, 04:45 PM
She Who Bears The Lash and Drives Us Ever On.

For this reason. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-tjJDFfjQw)

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-21, 05:20 PM
She Who Bears The Lash and Drives Us Ever On.

For this reason. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-tjJDFfjQw)
Hahaha! I knew exactly what that video was going to be.

Oh, I should've mentioned. She Who Bears the Lash will automatically grant our orc the "Where There's A Whip, There's A Way" trait. Yup. It's in the book. XD

ExtravagantEvil
2012-10-21, 06:22 PM
She Who Bears The Lash and Drives Us Ever On. from me

Amphetryon
2012-10-21, 06:41 PM
She Who Walks In The Named's Shadow, for the wolves.

Sodalite
2012-10-21, 08:08 PM
Why did it have to be a tie? Both seem pretty cool, and I'm bad a picking between to potential great options, both of which are ultimately inconsequential, so I'll leave this up to the winds of fate.

Evens means Bears, odds means Walks.

1d100

Edit: Hm...I completely forgot there isn't dice funtionality outside of the game forums. Ah well, to random.org it is.

And it's a 6, so She Who Bears The Lash and Drives Us Ever On it is.

Zelphas
2012-10-21, 08:29 PM
But... but I wanted to vote for She Who Walks in the Named's Shadow, which brings it back to a tie...

Sanguine
2012-10-21, 08:33 PM
She Who Walks In The Named's Shadow Because wolves.

Xefas
2012-10-21, 08:41 PM
...both of which are ultimately inconsequential, so I'll leave this up to the winds of fate.


They're fairly consequential. They determine a lot about what stats and traits we'll have, as well as what Lifepaths we'll have access to afterward.

Bears the Lash will give us access to Head-Taker and Whisperer (the former is a combat-y sort of dude, and that latter is a socializing sort of dude), while She Who Walks In the Named's Shadow gives us access to The Black Destroyer (a scary mounted guy).

If we decide to go beyond 4 lifepaths (as Guitarrem noted, kinda risky for an Orc), Black Destroyer will eventually lead to Named, and then Great One.

The Dwarf burned in the other thread had, in total from all lifepaths, 30 resources. Great One, as the warboss lifepath, gives you +50 resources per time you take it. Just sayin', in case anyone wants to see how the system handles a ruler sort of character.

Sodalite
2012-10-21, 08:55 PM
No, by not consequential, I mean it's not a life or death thing, for me at least. Obviously for this orc lady, this is a pretty big point of divergence in her life. I'm bad at saying things, so I guess this confusion is all I could have expected.

Edit: Hm...thinking again, the warbossiness potential with Great One does seem substantially interesting. Then again, it looks to be that Walks is in the lead anyway, so I won't bother changing votes until it goes back to being a tie.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-21, 10:18 PM
Hehehehe. So, we come to our first nailbiter!! I'll leave this up until sometime tomorrow, and then I'll swoop by to see who's winning.

Fenix_of_Doom
2012-10-22, 09:31 AM
It's funny to note how different this thread is handled compared to the previous one. In the previous thread, we were all just stumbling in the dark, in this one, we are getting way more information and some people are actually trying to plan ahead!

Now before is is a though choice and I actually like all three options, however
She Who Bears The Lash and Drives Us Ever On wins by a slight margin.

Totally Guy
2012-10-22, 09:53 AM
In the previous thread, we were all just stumbling in the dark, in this one, we are getting way more information and some people are actually trying to plan ahead!

I'm guessing you prefer this one. But in spite of stumbling around we still got a guy with a bit of depth to him.

Sith_Happens
2012-10-22, 10:11 AM
I was going to keep pushing Slave to the Dark, but that "where there's a whip, there's a way bit" turned me around. She Who Bear the Lash and Ever Drives Us On it is. I can only hope that the new lifepaths opened up by this one will have names nearly as hammy.


They're fairly consequential. They determine a lot about what stats and traits we'll have, as well as what Lifepaths we'll have access to afterward.

Bears the Lash will give us access to Head-Taker and Whisperer (the former is a combat-y sort of dude, and that latter is a socializing sort of dude), while She Who Walks In the Named's Shadow gives us access to The Black Destroyer (a scary mounted guy).

If we decide to go beyond 4 lifepaths (as Guitarrem noted, kinda risky for an Orc), Black Destroyer will eventually lead to Named, and then Great One.

The Dwarf burned in the other thread had, in total from all lifepaths, 30 resources. Great One, as the warboss lifepath, gives you +50 resources per time you take it. Just sayin', in case anyone wants to see how the system handles a ruler sort of character.

Spoilers much? I thought the point of this thread was for us to go blind and see what happens.:smalltongue:

Fenix_of_Doom
2012-10-22, 10:24 AM
I'm guessing you prefer this one. But in spite of stumbling around we still got a guy with a bit of depth to him.

Actually, I don't, I like thinking about things and figuring them out but I don't have to know all my future options, in fact not knowing what's going to happen was a big part of what made the previous thread exiting.

Besides planning seems silly if you don't actually get to decide what happens next, last time I pretty much had to readjust my views of the character after every vote, and that was without planning ahead.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-22, 10:39 AM
It's true, there's more info provided. Pretty much the only reason I did that was because Orcs. Like TG pointed out, they are ridiculously limited in some ways. (That's a very interesting element, I hadn't realized it via my cursory read-through before. But I think it strongly reflects a specific culture.)

So I didn't want you all quite going in blind, for that reason. If I did another "let's vote up" thread, I would give you more blindness.

Totally Guy
2012-10-22, 10:50 AM
Like TG pointed out, they are ridiculously limited in some ways. (That's a very interesting element, I hadn't realized it via my cursory read-through before. But I think it strongly reflects a specific culture.)

It's a good job we haven't had human born in a city. There must be 30 lifepath options at least!

Fenix_of_Doom
2012-10-22, 10:53 AM
I suddenly feel another thread coming after this.....

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-22, 11:03 AM
I suddenly feel another thread coming after this.....
It's like...the Burningpocalypse!

Actually, after this, I'm considering setting up a short scenario and doing a "Let's Play" of that. If I run another chargen thread, I also think it'd be fun to LP the characters into one another...

Totally Guy
2012-10-22, 11:12 AM
Probably best to use this thread after this gal's done. We'll probably have all had enough after this one :smalltongue:. Oskar the Dwarf took just less than two weeks. This one might be longer depending on how many lifepaths get chosen.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-22, 11:13 AM
Aside: I am really, really looking forward to seeing how the voting goes when we finish our first four LPs.

Sodalite
2012-10-22, 11:19 AM
All this development since I last checked! I likewise have a feeling that justice could be done with another thread, considering all the possibilities left unexplored. I also definitely like the idea of a story actually taking these characters, or other characters for that matter, somewhere.

Also also, I'll be pulling my vote out of Bears and into She Who Walks In The Named's Shadow, which should place it in the lead again.

Edit: The conversation was even going while I was making this post! I suppose I should have bothered to look at the time stamps.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-23, 08:38 PM
Totally forgot to put this up! Anyhow, She Who Walks in the Named's Shadow it is! So, then. We come up to our final free lifepath. After that, I'll explain where to go from there. In sum-up, "calling it quits" will become an option like the rest. In that event, lifepath selection will stop immediately, and we'll move on.

Why would we want to do that? Because every lifepath after the fourth carries a risk of mutilation (a small price paid to avoid death) such as missing fingers, a missing eye, or missing limbs. I'll explain how that works after this lifepath. Anyhow!

Born Great and Black Setting
Our orc can become She Whose Skin is Like Winter Night, Whose Mere Presence Causes Those Beneath Her to Shiver in Terror and Cower Beneath Her Wicked Blade (legit. That's the name.), which means that she learns to be a mounted combat expert, which generally means wolf-rider. It's also the quickest path to becoming a Great One amongst the orcs.

The Legion
As before, our orc can become a Hatred Bearer, a Despair Shouter, and She Who Bears the Lash and Drives Us Ever On...but some new options have opened up as well. At this point, there's enough flow and flexibility that I won't reveal what leads to what.

Does She Who is Fell and Stalks the Night sound appealing to anyone? Basically, think Orc ranger/assassin skills.

We can also go into She Who Sits Astride the Howling Black Beast, which is another wolfrider path, albeit a little less impressive in my opinion. (I think it's basically the wolfrider path for the scum who weren't fortunate enough to be Born Great.)

Or, there's always She Who Rules the Black Wolf Pack, the packmaster of the war wolves. Her time spent in the shadow of the Named is enough to get her into this.

Down to the Chattel
If you really want, you can send her to the dregs of Orc society, as a...

Cattle Slave
Scavenger
Forge Slave
Hauler
Cutter Slave
Tunneler
Ravager
Whipmaster

Scavenger, Ravager, and Whipmaster would let you escape the Chattel setting and get into the Legion setting. Really, though, I don't see the point... :smallwink:

(There's enough lifepaths here that I'm gonna set up for an "instant runoff" vote, just in case. List your top three choices, in order.)

The Glyphstone
2012-10-23, 08:43 PM
SWSiLWNWMPCTBHtSiTaCBHWB.

Black Wolf Pack.

Stalks The Night.

Amphetryon
2012-10-23, 08:49 PM
1. She Who Rules the Black Wolf Pack

2. She Whose Skin is Like Winter Night, Whose Mere Presence Causes Those Beneath Her to Shiver in Terror and Cower Beneath Her Wicked Blade

3. Whipmaster

Sanguine
2012-10-23, 09:02 PM
SWSiLWNWMPCTBHtSiTaCBHWB.

Black Wolf Pack.

Stalks The Night.

I second this.

Sodalite
2012-10-23, 09:02 PM
1. SWSiLWNWMPCTBHtSiTaCBHWB

2. She Who Rules the Black Wolf Pack

3. She Who is Fell and Stalks the Night

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-23, 09:06 PM
Glyphstone is my hero.

The Glyphstone
2012-10-23, 09:23 PM
I like acronyms.:smallsmile:

Swissilwonawompkatubhitsichbuwhub is kinda hard to pronounce though.

Sodalite
2012-10-23, 09:28 PM
I wonder, how do the orcs deal with some of these over-long titles? Do they just go through every word every time, do they shorten it to a few critical words, do they acronymize it like us, or do they do something else? I have feeling this isn't gone into, though...

Knaight
2012-10-23, 09:51 PM
Scavenger
She who is Fell and Stalks the Night
She who rules the Black Wolf Pack
I'd really just like some sort of fall here. Rising high easily, falling, then struggling to the top at much higher personal cost (mutilation) seems ideal to me.

Xefas
2012-10-23, 10:46 PM
1. SWSiLWNWMPCTBHtSiTaCBHWB

2. She Who Rules the Black Wolf Pack

3. She Who is Fell and Stalks the Night


I wonder, how do the orcs deal with some of these over-long titles? Do they just go through every word every time, do they shorten it to a few critical words, do they acronymize it like us, or do they do something else? I have feeling this isn't gone into, though...

Maybe that's why getting a name is such a boon? Everyone will like you because they can just call you Steve. No wonder it leads to you being crowned King. Imagine being ruled by someone that had to be referred to as Swissle Winwem Map Catbath Sitach Bhilwib. The convenience of 'Steve' alone could start a revolution.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-23, 11:45 PM
I wonder, how do the orcs deal with some of these over-long titles? Do they just go through every word every time, do they shorten it to a few critical words, do they acronymize it like us, or do they do something else? I have feeling this isn't gone into, though...
Well, the book doesn't explicitly say, as with many things; it gives you some interestingly implied stuff, and lets you draw your own conclusions.

That being said, the sample orc character in the book has a name that's been shortened to "Astride the Beast". So, I think it makes sense that they use a shortened "casual name".

Sodalite
2012-10-23, 11:50 PM
Hm...If only I could afford more than the Hub and Spokes, I might be able to learn this kind of thing.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-23, 11:53 PM
Hm...If only I could afford more than the Hub and Spokes, I might be able to learn this kind of thing.
Mmm, definitely keep it on your list. The core philosophy tends to be "don't saddle the players with a setting, but give them some evocative details to build from", when it comes to the world.

Side note: I use the full names, because I personally find them to be awesome.

Zelphas
2012-10-24, 12:25 AM
Yep, Definitely going with the group on this one.

1. SWSiLWNWMPCTBHtSiTaCBHWB

2. She Who Rules the Black Wolf Pack

3. She Who is Fell and Stalks the Night

I wonder how they call a SWSiLWNWMPCTBHtSiTaCBHWB over in a hurry in the midst of battle...

Xefas
2012-10-24, 01:04 AM
I wonder how they call a SWSiLWNWMPCTBHtSiTaCBHWB over in a hurry in the midst of battle...

"I need a Swissle over here in a hurry!"

"All Swissles, please report for a cavalry charge!"

"I need the Goblins in phalanx arrangement. Sky Blotters in the back! Swissles? Assume the Swizzle Stick Formation! We're going in!"

Sith_Happens
2012-10-24, 04:32 AM
I'm just going to vote in decreasing order of hamminess, so... What Glyphstone et al. said. I thought we were voting up Burning Wheel character, not an Abyssal.

Fenix_of_Doom
2012-10-24, 07:36 AM
1. She Who is Fell and Stalks the Night.

2. SWSiLWNWMPCTBHtSiTaCBHWB.

3. Whipmaster.

I know my vote is a mere formality, but I'm sticking with my own opinion anyway.

The Glyphstone
2012-10-24, 07:37 AM
I'm just going to vote in decreasing order of hamminess, so... What Glyphstone et al. said. I thought we were voting up Burning Wheel character, not an Abyssal.

Don't you mean an Infernal?

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-24, 08:15 AM
I know my vote is a mere formality, but I'm sticking with my own opinion anyway.
Actually, based on how a runoff vote works, your vote can make a difference. It's rather interesting stuff.

Also, I love this thread. Swizzle!!

Zelphas
2012-10-24, 08:24 AM
Originally Posted by Xefas:
"I need the Goblins in phalanx arrangement. Sky Blotters in the back! Swissles? Assume the Swizzle Stick Formation! We're going in!"

May I please Sig this? :smallbiggrin:

Totally Guy
2012-10-24, 12:12 PM
Swizzle is female specific. Hwizzle's make up a good proportion of the legion too!

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-24, 12:23 PM
The Swizzle Stick formation is formed from a legendary crack division of wolf-riders, comprised entirely of she-orcs.

Xefas
2012-10-24, 12:41 PM
May I please Sig this? :smallbiggrin:

Of course. :smallbiggrin:

Spamotron
2012-10-24, 03:19 PM
1. She Who Rules the Black Wolf Pack

2. Hatred Bearer

3. She Who Bears the Lash and Drives Us Ever On

Sanguine
2012-10-24, 03:20 PM
Don't you mean an Infernal?

No, it's Abyssals who are famous for their overly long and florid names.

The Glyphstone
2012-10-24, 05:46 PM
No, it's Abyssals who are famous for their overly long and florid names.

Oh. I looked at some of the actual Yozi names and assumed the Infernals just followed suit. Not the case, then?

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-24, 07:04 PM
Well, then! She Whose Skin is Like Winter Night, Whose Mere Presence Causes Those Beneath Her to Shiver in Terror and Cower Beneath Her Wicked Blade (or, "Swissle" for short) it is!

Now comes the first major decision point. Swissle is 24 years old, with meager amounts of resources, and some very respectable stats. Is that good enough to call it quits? Doing so means that we move on to the next phase of character creation. You may, from now on, cast "call it quits" as one or more of your votes, instead of choosing a lifepath.

If we do not call it quits, then I roll the "Die of Fate" (a d6). If I roll a 1, then Swissle (or whatever her name might become) narrowly escapes death/being eaten/some awful life-ending fate, instead merely losing some digits from her handses or feetses. Otherwise, she suffers no consequence. (This potential danger will escalate. Higher. And. Higher. Eventually, we'll be rolling against a 33% chance of losing a limb.)

Lifepaths that can be taken now...

She Who is Mighty and Has Earned the Ancient Right to be Named, wherein our orc is allowed to take on a name of her own, which she is recognized by in society. (She might have nicknames from her comrades, but truly claiming a name for yourself is sheer arrogance, or else a vermin outsider conceit.)

Fallen into the Chattel
As before, she can fall all the way into the ranks of the chattel. I'll re-list the potential lifepaths here.

Cattle Slave
Scavenger
Forge Slave
Hauler
Cutter Slave
Tunneler
Ravager
Whipmaster

So, to recap. Make three votes: your first, second, and third choices. Any of those choices may be a distinct lifepath, or else "call it quits". This is where it starts to get real interesting...

The Glyphstone
2012-10-24, 07:06 PM
Heck yeah.
1-She Who is Mighty and Has Earned the Ancient Right to be Named.

2-Call It Quits. We ain't standing for any Chattel status.

Sodalite
2012-10-24, 07:25 PM
And again my vote falls in line with The Glyphstone's, so that'll be She who is Mighty and Has Earned the Ancient Right to be Named followed by Call it Quits.

Amphetryon
2012-10-24, 07:59 PM
1. SWiMaHEtARtbN

2. Whipmaster

3. Call it Quits

Sanguine
2012-10-24, 08:10 PM
Oh. I looked at some of the actual Yozi names and assumed the Infernals just followed suit. Not the case, then?

Infernals can call themselves whatever they like. Which means some will have overly long flowery titles and others will have simple down to earth names.

Abyssal's however are upon their Exaltations stripped of their names and given a flowery title by the Neverborn. Here are some canon examples of said titles: The Maiden of the Mirthless Smile, The Harbinger of the Ghost-Cold Wind, The Wink of the Storm's Eye, Fallen Wolf of the Cutting Sea, and Weeping Raiton Cast Aside.

Anyway I concur with Glyphstone's vote.

Knaight
2012-10-24, 08:12 PM
Scavenger
She Who is Mighty and Has Earned the Ancient Right to be Named
Hauler

Urpriest
2012-10-24, 08:59 PM
1. SWiMaHEtARtbN

2. Whipmaster

3. Call it Quits

Seconded. If we're going to fall, let's whip it good.

Sith_Happens
2012-10-24, 09:03 PM
Heck yeah.
1-She Who is Mighty and Has Earned the Ancient Right to be Named.

2-Call It Quits. We ain't standing for any Chattel status.

This.

And yeah (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0001.html), the "long hammy name" joke is mainly applied to Abyssals.

Acanous
2012-10-24, 10:29 PM
1. She Who is Mighty and Has Earned the Ancient Rite to be Named

2. Whipmaster

3: Cattle Slave. Because I couldn't see that option there and not have at least ONE vote for it. Like an option in an old MUD where the coder was horribly misogynistic, I want to see it 'cuz it's guerunteed to be BAD. That makes me curious.

Xefas
2012-10-24, 10:36 PM
I'm gonna go:

1) She Who is Mighty and Has Earned the Ancient Right to be Named

2) A second period of Swissledom

3) Call it quits

Zelphas
2012-10-24, 11:23 PM
1. Named. For sure. Let's give her a cool name.
2. Call it Quits. It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye... or a limb...

FallenEco
2012-10-25, 03:01 AM
1) Named: Cause she must be awesome!

2) Call it Quits: because on,y a couple of characters can pull off an eyepatch.

Fenix_of_Doom
2012-10-25, 03:45 AM
SWiMaHEtARtbN is the only way to go, a single digit is worth the trade of being named.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-25, 08:29 AM
2. Call it Quits. It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye... or a limb...
Yaknow, I think this is the orc motto.

It seems pretty lopsided now (XD), but I don't have the books around. I'll update things late tonight.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-25, 06:26 PM
Yup, definitely She Who is Mighty and Has Earned the Right to be Named! Which means...

DIE OF FATE!!!! (Yes, it is literally called the Die of Fate in the rules. I love Luke Crane.) Here's how it works. If it rolls a 1, our orc will gain the Missing Digits trait.

Just to keep the suspense up, I've decided to roll it under the video camera, so that you can see the result yourself. (100% no fudging. I decided that I was going to take whatever result came, and then I rolled it on camera.) If it's a 1, our orc gains the Missing Digits trait.

I'll proceed without telling you the result. Go watch the video, it's only a few seconds long. :smallwink: (Why? Because I'm evil.)

The link doth be here. ROLL AWAY!! (https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B5aACMJOXiR-eWRra2VXdjAyaVU)

Now, then! As before, you may vote to "call it quits", or the following...

Our orc may ascend the ranks and become a Great One. I'm just gonna say right now, this is gonna give her heaps of prestige. Literally, as much prestige/wealth as she has accumulated thus far in her career. This would double her worth, and give her some sweet stat bumps as well.

She could also re-take any Born Great lifepath thus far that's been mentioned, if you are so inclined. Or she could drop into the Chattel setting. (If you're intent on that by this point, I figure it's not too hard to go back a page by now. Yeah...I'm lazy.)

Now, the Die of Fate risk is a Missing Eye.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, as before, do your top three votes. (Or top two, or one, if you wanna cut it off with "call it quits" at any point in your voting.)

Knaight
2012-10-25, 06:30 PM
Time for a fall:
Scavenger

Zelphas
2012-10-25, 06:31 PM
I'm going with my earlier vote. It's still fun and games now, but depending on how the Die of Fate rolls...

Let's Call it Quits.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-25, 06:34 PM
P.S., in case it gets uneven, I'm asking for top three votes still. (I'll briefly explain how runoff works in a spoiler.)

I start by only counting #1 options. If any one option gets half the votes, that option wins. If not, then I throw in #2 options and recount. Then, if any one option has half the votes, that option wins. If not, I throw in #3 votes, and look for a straight-out majority.

Naturally, duplicate voting is not allowed.

Sodalite
2012-10-25, 06:40 PM
Great One, obviously. Up until now, we've been working towards this, for the basically the entire thead. Why give up on it now?

and if the dream really has died, I'll just Call it Quits.

Sanguine
2012-10-25, 08:37 PM
My monitor is on its last legs and thus I wasn't able to see anything in that video.:smallfrown:

Anyway, I am cool with losing an eye, and am in fact hoping for it.

So.

Great One

She Who Rules the Black Wolf Pack

She Who Bears the Lash and Drives Us Ever On

The Glyphstone
2012-10-25, 08:43 PM
Great One

Call It Quits

A one-eyed Orc Chieftainess would be indescribably badass.

Amphetryon
2012-10-25, 10:03 PM
Great One

She Who Rules the Black Wolf Pack

Call it quits

Xefas
2012-10-25, 10:22 PM
Great One

Call It Quits

A one-eyed Orc Chieftainess would be indescribably badass.

+1 on all counts.

Heck, if we get to be Great One, and don't lose an eye, I may vote for buying a missing eye trait anyway.

Sanguine
2012-10-25, 10:26 PM
+1 on all counts.

Heck, if we get to be Great One, and don't lose an eye, I may vote for buying a missing eye trait anyway.

We can do that? I want to do that.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-25, 10:50 PM
My monitor is on its last legs and thus I wasn't able to see anything in that video.:smallfrown:

It was a 3. No missing digitses.

And yeah, "Missing Eye", like many other things, is a trait. It's a negative trait, but it can totally be bought. (In Burning Wheel, traits can be wonderful fodder for "fate", which is a sorta meta-currency that acts as your XP when spent.)

I am unsurprised by the voting thus far.

Xefas
2012-10-25, 11:03 PM
We can do that? I want to do that.

To note, for those that don't play Burning Wheel-

You might be familiar with games that have the idea of Flaws and Perks, or just Flaws. Wherein, you buy a Flaw of some kind, which is a permanent and passive penalty to something and, in exchange, you get more points, or feats, or whatever, to buy another permanent and passive bonus to your character.

The problem with that, as many of you may have encountered, is that it leads to people wanting to buy Flaws that never actually effect them or, in the case of the bright eyed and bushy tailed optimist, they buy a very flavorful flaw in their area of competence, that comes into play a lot, and it hinders them grievously, to the point of severely outstripping any benefit they got from taking it.

Burning Wheel makes you buy negative traits, with the same points that you would buy positive traits. Why? Because every time a trait hinders you, you get Stuff. And the Stuff you get is always awesome and you always want more of it.

So, players are only going to buy traits that will actually come into play and be applicable and interesting. You won't see someone buying Landlubber in a Wild West game, because it costs them a point, but when are they going to be on a boat to get Stuff for it?

On the other hand, if I were in a Wild West D&D game, why wouldn't I want to buy a -1 penalty to all checks at sea in exchange for Power Attack or Spell Focus? It's pointless and uninteresting. Perfect!

So, if we buy Missing Eye (a 3pt trait) we can get Stuff every time our missing eye hinders us in an interesting or dramatic way. Like, say, any time we need to be able to see properly. That won't come up, right? :smallbiggrin:

Acanous
2012-10-25, 11:05 PM
Go Big or Go Home.
1. Great One
2. Scavenger
3. Cattle Slave

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-25, 11:22 PM
<gives Xefas a Persona point>

Zelphas
2012-10-25, 11:34 PM
Originally Posted by CarpeGuitarrum:
P.S., in case it gets uneven, I'm asking for top three votes still.

Oh. Well, to add my other two options:
2. Great One. 'Cause that's awesome.
3. She Who Bears the Lash and Drives Us Ever On. This would also be fun.

Fenix_of_Doom
2012-10-26, 05:15 AM
We've been heading to it for a while now, so why not just give in?

Great one, the only way to party.




On an unrelated note, I'm interested to note that orcs can also double lifepaths, I thought it specifically wasn't an option because of lifepath limitations. I figured that orcs simply had an advance or die culture.

Sith_Happens
2012-10-26, 07:32 AM
1. Great One.

2. Call it quits. (As others have said, go big or go home.)

Acanous
2012-10-26, 05:42 PM
I'm going to keep voting for the best and worst possible outcomes *Until* she loses something in a Life-or-death experience. That sort of thing builds character.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-26, 11:48 PM
On an unrelated note, I'm interested to note that orcs can also double lifepaths, I thought it specifically wasn't an option because of lifepath limitations. I figured that orcs simply had an advance or die culture.
Yeah, sorry I didn't clear that out better. The main reason I encouraged people to keep taking new lifepaths was that, well, a lifepath limit is a limit, and orcs take more than four lifepaths to really shine.

Anyhow, Great One it is!! She's gonna need one worthy name...

And now, the moment you've been awaiting...the Die of Fate (https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B5aACMJOXiR-RlQzQ0lyM0RuRTg)!!!

Anyhow, I'll spoiler the actual result at the bottom. We now find ourselves with pretty much the same options as before. We can call it quits, retake Follower, Named, or Black Destroyer (the Swissle path), take Servant of the Gate, or...heh. There's not actually any option for a Great One to fall directly to the Chattel setting. Naturally.

If we don't call it quits this time, the Die of Fate bestows a missing hand. May the odds be ever in your favor...

The Die of Fate result was...a 2. So, our orc still escapes mayhem.

Sodalite
2012-10-27, 12:07 AM
You know what? I'll go for Servant of the Gate first, with Call it Quits second. I wonder if we can manage a hit on all of the end-of-the-line lifepaths?

Edits: Doesn't look like it's going to crawl past 1. That's cool though, it's not like it's bad, and I can see how having so many lifepaths could get both unwieldy and just sort of ugly.

Zelphas
2012-10-27, 12:31 AM
I still say Call it Quits. She's a Great One now, let her kick back and relax.

Sanguine
2012-10-27, 12:42 AM
I still say Call it Quits. She's a Great One now, let her kick back and relax.

By kick back and relax you mean go on epic adventures, right?

Anyway if it's still available I say.

1. She Who Rules the Black Wolf Pack

2. Call it Quits

Xefas
2012-10-27, 12:58 AM
Call It Quits.

Time to spend those mounds of points we just got.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-27, 01:21 AM
Anyway if it's still available I say.

1. She Who Rules the Black Wolf Pack

Currently unavailable. Great One doesn't let you go into any other settings; you'd have to cut back to Follower for that.

Sanguine
2012-10-27, 01:28 AM
Currently unavailable. Great One doesn't let you go into any other settings; you'd have to cut back to Follower for that.

In that case, just Call it Quits.

Totally Guy
2012-10-27, 05:03 AM
A missing hand? Pah!

Great one.
Black Destroyer
Servant of the Gate

More lifepaths aren't really so much unweildy. They just generate an extra number to add into the pool.

Fenix_of_Doom
2012-10-27, 07:00 AM
Why quit when you're ahead? are you chicken?!?!

I vote:
Great one

Black hunter

Named

Get nasty or die trying!



Yeah, sorry I didn't clear that out better. The main reason I encouraged people to keep taking new lifepaths was that, well, a lifepath limit is a limit, and orcs take more than four lifepaths to really shine.

That's okay, I understand.
I have to add though that the die of fate videos are totally awesome.

The Glyphstone
2012-10-27, 09:01 AM
I don't know what Servant of the Gate is, but it sounds cool, so

Servant of the Gate

Call It Quits

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-27, 10:31 AM
I don't know what Servant of the Gate is, but it sounds cool, so

Servant of the Gate

Call It Quits
Servant of the Gate effectively involves hard labor.

Also, doubling up on Great One....oh man. Lifepaths diminish in value after the second time you take them, but taking it a mere twice is gonna get us a filthy rich (or connected) orc. With lots of stat boosts. That's quite the interesting option. (Incidentally, taking it a third time is still better than a lot of orc lifepaths. It's a veritable jackpot in many ways.)

The Glyphstone
2012-10-27, 10:47 AM
Servant of the Gate effectively involves hard labor.

Also, doubling up on Great One....oh man. Lifepaths diminish in value after the second time you take them, but taking it a mere twice is gonna get us a filthy rich (or connected) orc. With lots of stat boosts. That's quite the interesting option. (Incidentally, taking it a third time is still better than a lot of orc lifepaths. It's a veritable jackpot in many ways.)

Oh. Never mind. Changing my vote, then, to

Great One II

Call It Quits

Sanguine
2012-10-27, 12:50 PM
Yeah, I'm changing my vote too.

Great One II

Call it Quits

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-28, 01:33 AM
Great One II it is! Now let's get to that Die of Fate roll...

Behold the tempting of FATE!!!! (https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B5aACMJOXiR-NDVzT1hwaHdGaTA) Remember, next Die of Fate puts an entire limb at risk...
It's a 4...how much longer will our luck hold out??

Anyhow, same options as before. You can re-take Follower, go into Servant of the Gate, or repeat Great One (for a diminished return this time). Or call it quits.

Sanguine
2012-10-28, 02:36 AM
Go big or go home.

Great One III

Call it Quits

After this though I think we are good on Life Paths.

Zelphas
2012-10-28, 10:17 AM
What are we risking to lose this time? At the moment, my vote stands for

1. Great One III
2. Call it Quits

We've already gone this far. Why not get some more connections?

The Glyphstone
2012-10-28, 10:19 AM
Yeah, lets take 1 more shot.

Great One III
Call It Quits

But after this, we're done.

Sith_Happens
2012-10-28, 02:13 PM
Great One v3.0
Call it Quits

What else were you expecting?

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-28, 03:12 PM
What are we risking to lose this time?
An entire limb.

Xefas
2012-10-28, 03:38 PM
An entire limb.

What are the odds that our Mekboyz will be able to fashion us a steam-powered clockpunk arm to replace our lost one?

That's probably, like, a Circles check, right?

Zelphas
2012-10-28, 04:54 PM
An entire limb.

Hmm... a leg would be annoying, but I think I'll keep my vote. She's gotta have something to identify her after all this status increase.

Analytica
2012-10-28, 06:02 PM
Hmm... a leg would be annoying, but I think I'll keep my vote. She's gotta have something to identify her after all this status increase.

Missing an arm. In its place there is a heavy chain connecting to the collar of a nasty, lobotomized troll pup called "Right Hand".

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-28, 06:42 PM
What are the odds that our Mekboyz will be able to fashion us a steam-powered clockpunk arm to replace our lost one?

That's probably, like, a Circles check, right?
XD

Yeah.....Circles Ob 10? :smallwink:

Zelphas
2012-10-28, 07:06 PM
Missing an arm. In its place there is a heavy chain connecting to the collar of a nasty, lobotomized troll pup called "Right Hand".

... If there is any possible way at all of buying this, it should happen. That's simply wonderful.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-28, 09:29 PM
... If there is any possible way at all of buying this, it should happen. That's simply wonderful.
I'm trying to figure it. It'd certainly be possible to put a resources price on it. What's more tricky is giving our orc the skills needed to control the troll. Otherwise, she's in for a bad time... (knowing how to speak Troll is actually outside of the confines of her lifepaths; only the Troll Lord orcs have acquired that skillset, because they work day in and day out with trolls)

Xefas
2012-10-28, 09:58 PM
I'm trying to figure it. It'd certainly be possible to put a resources price on it. What's more tricky is giving our orc the skills needed to control the troll. Otherwise, she's in for a bad time... (knowing how to speak Troll is actually outside of the confines of her lifepaths; only the Troll Lord orcs have acquired that skillset, because they work day in and day out with trolls)

What we need is a relationship with a Troll Lord, then, in addition to a lobotomized Troll named 'My Right Hand'. We will call him "Brain", and he will sit on our shoulders.

Then, we may proceed with the astoundingly efficient mechanism of yelling "Brain! Tell 'My Right Hand' to punch that guy!"

I have no idea how this would interact with the fighting mechanics, but your enemies should probably have to check for hesitation, just from sheer confusion.

Sanguine
2012-10-28, 10:00 PM
What we need is a relationship with a Troll Lord, then, in addition to a lobotomized Troll named 'My Right Hand'. We will call him "Brain", and he will sit on our shoulders.

Then, we may proceed with the astoundingly efficient mechanism of yelling "Brain! Tell 'My Right Hand' to punch that guy!"

I have no idea how this would interact with the fighting mechanics, but your enemies should probably have to check for hesitation, just from sheer confusion.

I can't stop laughing.

Sodalite
2012-10-28, 10:05 PM
Why do I have a feeling that a three-times Great One just has enough resources to make a situation like that real?

Analytica
2012-10-29, 05:37 AM
IIRC, it is suggested that sidekicks are burned up as lesser characters with fewer lifepaths. My Right Hand could perhaps take Vile Speech or something like that. Alternately, I guess the chain could be enchanted to provide the Troll Speech trait.

Fenix_of_Doom
2012-10-29, 05:42 AM
I actually had to think about this one for a while, but then I realised that we are basically taking more risk for less gain, what's not to like about that?

1. Great One

2. Quit

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-29, 10:02 AM
IIRC, it is suggested that sidekicks are burned up as lesser characters with fewer lifepaths. My Right Hand could perhaps take Vile Speech or something like that. Alternately, I guess the chain could be enchanted to provide the Troll Speech trait.
That is an excellent solution, actually. If anyone has the Monster Burner, could you look into that? Just in case people want to sink resources into that route, that is.

I actually had to think about this one for a while, but then I realised that we are basically taking more risk for less gain, what's not to like about that?

I like your attitude. :smallbiggrin:

This is the stuff that Burning Wheel is made of.

Totally Guy
2012-10-29, 10:21 AM
That is an excellent solution, actually. If anyone has the Monster Burner, could you look into that? Just in case people want to sink resources into that route, that is.

I had a player use that rule in a game I was running. Found it to be WAY powerful.

Acanous
2012-10-29, 04:36 PM
I'm going to vote
1: Great One
2: Cattle Slave
3: Call it Quits

Because it's not a risk, it's a class feature.

Edit: +50 resources for Great One, Halved each time it's taken, we're up to +87 Resources with Great one III, and if we go Great one IV we get 93. Don't know if +6 is a big deal, as have never read the book :/

Is 87+Other lifepath bonuses to Resources>100? If no, is 93+same>100?

Fenix_of_Doom
2012-10-29, 05:26 PM
I like your attitude. :smallbiggrin:

This is the stuff that Burning Wheel is made of.

If you do something you should do it right, half a legend is no legend I say.


I had a player use that rule in a game I was running. Found it to be WAY powerful.

Hate to bring D&D into this, but yea sounds a lot like leadership abuse.
I suppose you can not abuse the rule if you try, but especially a character like this with plenty of resources to spend can probably buy a pretty powerful companion.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-30, 09:06 AM
Hate to bring D&D into this, but yea sounds a lot like leadership abuse.
I suppose you can not abuse the rule if you try, but especially a character like this with plenty of resources to spend can probably buy a pretty powerful companion.
Just speculating here, but I think it's more "powerful" than OP. I suspect. Gaining massive amounts of followers is not easy to do.

('course, this is also the game which reminds the GM and players to keep a check on munchkins. Possibly by applying blunt force with the rulebook. :smallwink: )

Sounds cool to me, though, especially since it's not a regular game (where a player controlling two characters could get difficult to manage). So, we'll have that as an explicit option on the table when it comes time to purchase stuff.

The Glyphstone
2012-10-30, 11:01 AM
So is it official yet? Are we the one-armed Triple Great One?

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-30, 12:19 PM
Got back home late, so I didn't have the time to set it out. I'll roll away and post the results when I'm back home with the books.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-30, 10:36 PM
Okay, folks....HERE WE GO!!!

ROLL IT! (https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B5aACMJOXiR-YWllbFZyMUtmQWs)

(I actually decided to use a die from The One Ring, because it's that awesome-looking.)

We...lucked out. 6.

So, then. Are we calling it quits at long last? Re-taking Great One again will effectively do nothing but add years of orcish life. (Orcs, here, are ageless like elves.)

Sanguine
2012-10-30, 10:53 PM
Call It Quits

Sodalite
2012-10-30, 11:06 PM
Yean, I'll go with Call it Quits as well.

The Glyphstone
2012-10-30, 11:49 PM
Call It Quits.

Zelphas
2012-10-30, 11:56 PM
Call It Quits. She made it to Great One III... without a scratch. That is an ample mark of her prowess, I'd say.

Fenix_of_Doom
2012-10-31, 09:23 AM
I would be in favour of even more power, however that would mean we'd have to take a step back to, for example, named. I can't think of a way to unite being totally awesome with taking step back, therefore I say:

Quit

Siegel
2012-10-31, 02:41 PM
Would any of you be interested in voting up a mouse guard character?

Sodalite
2012-10-31, 02:46 PM
If it requires the same amount of mechanical familiarity as this, I don't see why not, as long it's in another thread.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-31, 03:27 PM
If it requires the same amount of mechanical familiarity as this, I don't see why not, as long it's in another thread.
Less mechanical familiarity, actually. MG creation is nothing more than picking choices off of a list. So it's dead-easy.

Totally link us up when you make the thread!

I'll have lifepath stuff summed up when I return. Double-check this...

Born Great -> The Rites -> Follower -> Black Destroyer (aka Swizzle)-> Named -> Great One -> Great One -> Great One

Sodalite
2012-10-31, 04:09 PM
Our lady here shot straight through to top, didn't she? And unscathed as well, unless we choose otherwise.

Acanous
2012-10-31, 05:02 PM
well, you all can vote to quit, but I still want to see what a Cattle Slave gets XD
Besides, what kind of backstory is it without some strife? She was born Great and shot straight to the top. We need a reason for her to be adventuring! What if she lost it all and had to start from the bottom?
Vote:
Cattle Slave

Knaight
2012-10-31, 05:10 PM
Would any of you be interested in voting up a mouse guard character?

Yes.

Also: Cattle Slave

Sodalite
2012-10-31, 05:28 PM
Um...If I recall from earlier in the thread, you can't reach Chattle lifepaths from Great One, directly at least.

Acanous
2012-10-31, 05:45 PM
Oh? I thought you could fall from anywhere. Perhaps I missed the part where it said you can't :/

Sodalite
2012-10-31, 05:50 PM
Found the quote that I was thinking of.


Currently unavailable. Great One doesn't let you go into any other settings; you'd have to cut back to Follower for that.

"Chattel" is its own setting, independent of "Great and Black", which is where Great One is.

Amphetryon
2012-10-31, 06:04 PM
I'm all for voting up a Human BW character, also.

Sodalite
2012-10-31, 07:41 PM
If we could tie all of the BW characters together that would be pretty cool, too.

The Glyphstone
2012-10-31, 07:46 PM
If we could tie all of the BW characters together that would be pretty cool, too.

Put them in a party to go on whacky adventures together?

Sith_Happens
2012-10-31, 07:48 PM
Call it quits.

Fenix_of_Doom
2012-10-31, 10:33 PM
Put them in a party to go on whacky adventures together?

I'm definitely in favour of this, however it will be hard to do for this ork, both character wise and power wise.

Acanous
2012-10-31, 10:35 PM
Ah, count those votes for Follower, then.

Really? Nobody else wants to give her some strife in her background?

Xefas
2012-10-31, 10:40 PM
Call it Quits



Really? Nobody else wants to give her some strife in her background?

We can buy a bunch of hostile relationships for her. Maybe she's polygamous, and we buy her seven evil Mothers-In-Law as separate relationships (we'll get a huge discount, because we're related to them and they hate us).

Maybe they're all One-Lifepath Great Ones, that lead the clans that we've united together under our banner, so we have to deal with our vicious harpie mommas to access 70% of our troops and resources. They gave us their most ruggedly handsome sons to cement the alliance.

Sith_Happens
2012-10-31, 10:40 PM
Ah, count those votes for Follower, then.

Really? Nobody else wants to give her some strife in her background?

I've got something in mind, but it doesn't come in until Beliefs and Instincts. It's also hilarious.

Sodalite
2012-10-31, 10:52 PM
I've got a certain feeling for Xefas's idea of having bunch of former matriarchs that we need to please because of the part they played in us reaching our current status. It just feels like an appropriate thing, though I'm not sure why.

Acanous
2012-10-31, 11:39 PM
Maybecause Polygamous Female Orc Warlord is an awesome concept?
The Mother-in-Law thing also sets up a Matriarchy. Possibly the first Orc Matriarchy, which may be why she's so Great.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-31, 11:53 PM
All right! I'm pretty sure that's still a majority to retire, so....here we go!

Next big step is stats. Hooooooooooo boy. I hadn't realized just how nasty orcs get, stat-wise. Anyhow.

Our she-orc is a ripe old 92 years of age, which is okay, because orcs possess the immortality of elves (and thus don't die of age, though are vulnerable to other things...including something we'll see later...). This gives her a few stat points to work with, and the lifepaths give her even more...

Anyhow, with her heap of points, it's very possible for her to max out some of her stats. Orc stats are capped at 8, higher than other races (except elves). However, we also have enough points that we could sink some of them to make one of those attributes a grey-shade attribute. This means that it's so awesome that it belongs to a higher tier of awesomeness, effectively. A grey-shade Perception means that this character has an uncanny knack for catching things, for instance. (Having a grey-shade ability gives you a substantial edge...it's a lot easier to level it up than to convert it in shade.)

Mental Stats
There's a few options here, and even if we spend points for grey-shade stats, we'll still have a good amount left to spend on the base stats. We can have...

Two maxed-out stats or Two mostly-even high stats, one grey-shade

If you opt for the second option, tell me A) which stat you want to be grey-shade and B) which stat you want to be slightly higher. The two stats are Will (the full strength of your mental and spiritual capacities, including charisma, wit, and resolve) and Perception (your awareness of things, including intuition and alertness).

Physical Stats

I'll be using an array to prioritize these stats (8, 6, 6, 5 for the curious), if we go with the straight points. In that case, let me know (in descending order) how you'd like to prioritize Power (physical might), Forte (toughness), Agility (deftness), and Speed (swiftness of action and movement). (Evaluation method in spoiler...) Just rank em 1 to 4, 1 being the best.

I first consider the #1 priority votes. Majority will be prioritized as #1, and all other votes are "put back in the hat", so to speak. They are considered along with all of the #2 priority votes to determine what stat gets #2; the remaining votes are "put back in the hat" for the #3 round, which finishes up voting.

If you want to buy a grey shade, that's cool too. Just let me know, and do the prioritizing as above.

If we get enough votes (a majority) to grey-shade a stat, then the array downgrades to a (6, 5, 5, 4), which is still wicked awesome by human standards, not even taking the grey shade into account.

If a grey-shade is voted on, then I'll do another vote asking people to choose what they want to be shaded.

So, then, folks, hopefully that wasn't too confusing. Pick one of the two options for the Mental stats, and then rank the four Physical stats (and let me know if you want to grey-shade).

Sanguine
2012-10-31, 11:59 PM
Mostly Even Mental Stats, Grey-Will>Perception

1)Toughness
2)Speed
3)Power
4)Agility

And let's Grey-Shade Physical as well.

Acanous
2012-11-01, 12:03 AM
my votes:
Mental:
Two mostly even stats, and one Grey shade
My vote for the Grey? Will for the Charisma.
She should be able to walk into a room and *Take Command* of everyone in it.

Physical:
1: Toughness
2: Agility
3: Speed
4: Power

She doesn't do things by hand anymore, really. That's for the grunts. But she's REALLY hard to bring down, if you were to try.

Xefas
2012-11-01, 12:19 AM
To elaborate on the Grey Shade thing. In Burning Wheel, you roll d6s, and 4-5-6 is a success, while 1-2-3 is a failure.

Your stats represent skill and experience, typically. So, having a 1 in your sword-using stat means you've done it so little that you're a novice, effectively. Having a 6 in your sword-using stat means you're a master swordsman.

There are caps on your stats, however, so, unlike D&D, it's possible to just become the best swordsman it is ever possible for a human to be. At some point. There's no "Get to Epic Level", where the BAB just keeps going up.

Or, rather there sort of is, which is where Grey Shade comes in. It means that your basic nature has transcended the normal limitations of mortality. You can still be a Swordsman 1, which means you're a novice, but if you're a Grey Swordsman 1, you're a novice, you don't know a lot about swordsmanship, but your nature and potential are that of a tiny demigod of swordsmanship. With a little training, you'll be able to match the greatest human swordsman. With the same training as him, you'll defeat him trivially.

Mechanically, when you roll a Grey Stat, you get successes on a 3, 4, 5, or 6, and a failure on a 1 or 2. See the difference? Way better. Not to mention that, not to go into the advancement rules too much, but a Grey Stat allows us to advance ourselves with less risk involved.

(There is also the potential to get a White Stat, where you get successes on a 2-6. Think of the Exalted, or a Planeswalker, or something - where even stuff you suck at, you still perform with supernatural grace and perfection.)

Having a Grey Will, for instance, would make us brutal in Social Combat. Intimidation, for one, builds off Will, so if we wanted to be, say, the scariest mother around (like a tiny burning demigod of scariness), then a Grey Will is where to go.

Spamotron
2012-11-01, 12:29 AM
I vote for Grey Perception > Will

Then

1. Agility (Grey)
2. Speed
3. Forte
4. Power

Everybody thinks of Orcs as dumb bruisers who just overpower their opponents. I like our girl as a brilliant, wickedly skilled and fast warrior who tears apart her enemies with superior tactics and technique.

Zelphas
2012-11-01, 12:53 AM
I'd go with Grey Will>Perception for mental stats.

For physical stats, I'd say:

1. Grey Forte. Hey. She's a Great One III without a scratch.
2. Speed
3. Power
4. Agility

Sith_Happens
2012-11-01, 01:04 AM
I'd go with Grey Will>Perception for mental stats.

For physical stats, I'd say:

1. Grey Forte. Hey. She's a Great One III without a scratch.
2. Speed
3. Power
4. Agility

As above for me.

Amphetryon
2012-11-01, 06:54 AM
Mostly Even Mental Stats, Grey-Will>Perception

1)Toughness
2)Speed
3)Power
4)Agility

And let's Grey-Shade Physical as well.

This. So much this.

Sodalite
2012-11-01, 07:04 AM
I'd go with Grey Will>Perception for mental stats.

For physical stats, I'd say:

1. Grey Forte. Hey. She's a Great One III without a scratch.
2. Speed
3. Power
4. Agility

I'm going to agree with this set up as well.

Fenix_of_Doom
2012-11-01, 07:12 AM
Mental: Mostly Even High Stats, Grey-Will>Perception

Physical: No greys
Strength
Toughness
Speed
Agility

The Glyphstone
2012-11-01, 08:01 AM
I'd go with Grey Will>Perception for mental stats.

For physical stats, I'd say:

1. Grey Forte. Hey. She's a Great One III without a scratch.
2. Speed
3. Power
4. Agility

Bandwagons are fun!

Amphetryon
2012-11-01, 08:44 AM
Bandwagons are fun!

Everyone says so!

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-11-01, 11:27 AM
Everyone says so!
Everyone I know thinks bandwagons are totally mainstream.

Fenix_of_Doom
2012-11-01, 11:40 AM
Everyone I know thinks bandwagons are totally mainstream.

I'm with the anti-bandwagon movement myself, but somehow we never seem to get anything organised.

Knaight
2012-11-01, 12:54 PM
Grey Perception > Will

1. Grey Agility
2. Speed
3. Forte
4. Power

Basically, I want really good reflexes, and grey stats.

Acanous
2012-11-01, 06:11 PM
Is it possible to buy a white stat at this time? 0.o

Dumping everything else and going White Forte might actually be a thing. A very funny thing.

Totally Guy
2012-11-01, 06:50 PM
Is it possible to buy a white stat at this time? 0.o

I'm away from my book right now but I don't think that's an option in Gold.

Analytica
2012-11-01, 08:30 PM
I agree with Grey Will and Forte.

Also with both seven mothers in law, and likewise seven hateful children.

Basically, she has this clan of evil orcs who hate her. Every day is a struggle to dominate them, one test at a time. And she keeps succeeding, one test at a time.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-11-02, 10:25 AM
Okay! Voting is now closed, with one exception.

First, here's our mental stats...

G7 Will, B6 Perception (which are brutally awesome, higher than any puny human stats, that's for sure)

Our physical stats are prioritized as such:
Forte
Speed
Power
Agility

Now, cast your votes for which stat should be grey (an overwhelming majority)! It by no means has to be the highest one. (I know some of you have already cast votes, but only about half of the people have...and having a set priority may change your vote.)

This time, I'll just ask you to pick a top stat and a runner-up.

Fenix_of_Doom
2012-11-02, 10:41 AM
I'd actually would have preferred if we'd just moved along as I can guess forte will win, but hey it's your topic so I'll just be patient.

Nominees for greyness(<----awesome word IMHO)
Power
Forte

Siegel
2012-11-02, 11:10 AM
For anyone who had fun with Burning Wheel Style Char Gen - you should definitely check out how it is done in Mouse Guard. It's more simple but really focused.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14158280#post14158280

Sodalite
2012-11-02, 11:14 AM
I will reiterate that I vote for Forte to be grey.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-11-02, 11:55 AM
I'd actually would have preferred if we'd just moved along as I can guess forte will win, but hey it's your topic so I'll just be patient.
Well (besides the fact that I don't currently have access to my lovely copy of BWG), there's only been four or five votes cast towards a particular stat, I believe. (Could be off on the count, though.) So, there is a chance that any of the stats could win.

The Glyphstone
2012-11-02, 11:58 AM
Grey Forte
Power

Siegel
2012-11-02, 12:08 PM
Grey Forte
Power


sounds right! I vote that too.

Amphetryon
2012-11-02, 12:14 PM
Grey Forte
Power

As has been established, bandwagons are fun!

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-11-02, 12:41 PM
Now that the bandwagon's started, I have a suspicion as to the outcome at this point. :smallwink:

Zelphas
2012-11-02, 12:55 PM
Grey Forte
Power

Sticking with this. For sure.

Xefas
2012-11-02, 01:23 PM
The thing that scares me? The thing that truly terrifies me? A Burning Wheel character with G6 Forte might actually be able to take a hit without crumpling into a pile of sobbing gore.

That's something humans never get to look forward to.

Siegel
2012-11-02, 01:29 PM
The thing that scares me? The thing that truly terrifies me? A Burning Wheel character with G6 Forte might actually be able to take a hit without crumpling into a pile of sobbing gore.

That's something humans never get to look forward to.

Humans get better armor... If you make a Character with a few more lifepath, especially in the military lifepaths you can get rather scary i think...

Sanguine
2012-11-02, 01:52 PM
All aboard the Bandwagon! Grey Forte

Fenix_of_Doom
2012-11-02, 02:05 PM
Well (besides the fact that I don't currently have access to my lovely copy of BWG), there's only been four or five votes cast towards a particular stat, I believe. (Could be off on the count, though.) So, there is a chance that any of the stats could win.

I agree it's more fair this way, but with my amazing powers of observation I saw this band wagon coming from a mile away.

Don't worry though, I'm patient, I do comment on stuff I disagree with or don't like, but I'm not actually bothered by it or anything.

Analytica
2012-11-02, 04:04 PM
I want on the bandwagon too!

Acanous
2012-11-02, 04:29 PM
Grey Forte.
Second highest physical stat should be whatever makes you harder to hit, be it Agility or Speed (Unfamiliar with system, cast my vote for the appropriate stat plz)

Siegel
2012-11-02, 04:31 PM
Grey Forte.
Second highest physical stat should be whatever makes you harder to hit, be it Agility or Speed (Unfamiliar with system, cast my vote for the appropriate stat plz)

You get auto hit if you don't take defensive manuveurs.

Acanous
2012-11-02, 05:33 PM
You get auto hit if you don't take defensive manuveurs.

lolwut?

Well, what do Agility and speed do, then? Add to your dice pool? A flat bonus to those manuveurs?

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-11-02, 08:15 PM
You get auto hit if you don't take defensive manuveurs.
Sort of.

It's a simultaneous action system. Both characters have an action which they attempt at the same time; actions can interact in various ways. If one character mounts an attack, and the other character takes a defensive maneuver (a dodge, a block, or a counterstrike), then the other character has an opportunity to get out of the way...although this means sacrificing a chance to full-out attack.

Otherwise, there's a nominal obstacle which is still technically possible to fail.

What really protects you, though, is armor. Armor negates damage, and that's where most of your defense comes from.

Anyhow, Speed is still your best bet if you want to be able to get away from attacks. You roll Speed to use Avoid. The other two defensive maneuvers are rooted in Agility, because you roll weapon skills.

Speed is also rolled when you want to get somewhere before someone else.


The thing that scares me? The thing that truly terrifies me? A Burning Wheel character with G6 Forte might actually be able to take a hit without crumpling into a pile of sobbing gore.

That's something humans never get to look forward to.
On the flip side, humans get cool magics. (well, okay, so do Orcs...) And a wide variety of skills that pretty much nobody else gets. And they definitely have the best all-around equipment.

But yeah. I never appreciated until now just how scary Orcs are, stat-wise.

Also, update is coming after I finish something tonight.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-11-02, 11:53 PM
Final Stats!

G7 Will, B6 Perception, G6 Forte, B5 Power, B5 Speed, B4 Agility

With that said...it's skills time!! Our orcish warlord has required skills from her lifepaths, and then a general skill list from those lifepaths as well. Here's how it breaks down...

Required Skills
Brawling, Armor Training, Mounted Combat Training, Command, Strategy

Investing in these leaves us with 30 skill points to spend on getting new skills from within the lifepaths. We also have five general skill points (for any skill we wish).

Voting!
First, let's vote for which skills we want to "open". When you open a skill, it starts at half the value of its "root" attribute (which means that a fair number of our skills start at B3). Skills may also be grey-shaded, if you spend 5 points to open the skill. Otherwise, it costs one point to open a skill.

So, your voting will have two parts.

A), how many points of the 30 should be devoted to opening skills? (The remaining points go to actually boosting the skills.)
B), what skills do you want to open?

I'll take some sort of statistically significant measure of the Part A votes (maybe average, maybe something a little more math-y), and then open the most popular skills as I have the ability to do.

Lifepath Skills
Intimidation, Torture*, Axe, Bow, Knives, Mace, Riding, Shield-Training***, Clan-wise, Great Wolf Husbandry, Spear, Brutal Intimidation*, Name Ritual**

* These two skills draw on Hatred, the Orcs' racial attribute. We haven't calculated this yet, but if they are opened, we can set aside some points to advance them, if wished, to be added after Hatred is established
** This is a unique skill, allowing the orc to perform the sacred Name Ritual which bestows an individual name upon a formerly nameless creature. (According to the skill, orcs are referred to either by their role or with a wordless grunt.)
*** This skill costs two points to open, is never rolled (or advanced), and merely allows the character to effectively use shields in combat.

For a scale of reference: 3-4 is okay in a skill, 5-6 is quite good, and I believe 8 is the cap for a starting Orc. However, because of the advancement system, lower skills advance much faster than higher skills...so buying more lower skills will benefit a character way more in the long run.

Sodalite
2012-11-03, 12:22 AM
I'm not particularly sure why, but I don't feel comfortable voting on the exact number of points that we should invest in opening rather than raising skills. However, I do feel that Name Ritual and Clan-wise would make sense to open, as well some weapon skill or skills, though I don't have on any specific one.

Sanguine
2012-11-03, 12:26 AM
I'm not particularly sure why, but I don't feel comfortable voting on the exact number of points that we should invest in opening rather than raising skills. However, I do feel that Name Ritual and Clan-wise would make sense to open, as well some weapon skill or skills, though I don't have on any specific one.

I agree, though I wish to add Spears, Intimidation, and Riding to the list of skills to open.

Zelphas
2012-11-03, 12:29 AM
I'm with Sanguine, though I might add in Great Wolf Husbandry as well. I just like the concept.

Sith_Happens
2012-11-03, 12:32 AM
I agree, though I wish to add Spears, Intimidation, and Riding to the list of skills to open.

Don't forget Brutal Intimidation, which is apparently a separate skill from regular Intimidation (:smallconfused:).

Xefas
2012-11-03, 12:49 AM
A), how many points of the 30 should be devoted to opening skills? (The remaining points go to actually boosting the skills.)
B), what skills do you want to open?

My thought is that while our Orcish lass is a seething cesspit of villainy and hatred, what sets her apart from the other Orcs is that her rage is of a slightly less mindless and reckless variety as her fellows. Which is why...

I think we should set aside Seven Points to open skills, from our non-general pool. Specifically taking: Intimidation, Riding, Shield-Training, Clan-Wise, Spears, and Name Ritual. And specifically not taking Torture and Brutal Intimidation. While those are powerful Hatred-fueled skills, they allow your Hatred to take control of you more easily. And we want to control our hate, using it as a finely crafted implement of destruction, rather than it controlling us.

To be bold, I suggest using all Five of our general points for opening skills. Specifically, opening Grey-shade Oratory.

How did we sway so many clans to follow us that we became [Name] [Title], [Second Title], The Thrice Great One? Well, we have what few other Orcs have. Oratory skills. We can inspire, rather than just intimidate (although we can do that too). We can make actual points and arguments, rather than simply dismissing others. We can make ourselves heard over the savage din of our kind.

We're destined to become one of the most well-spoken and inspirational Orcs of all time, hence the Grey Shade.

Sith_Happens
2012-11-03, 02:30 AM
My thought is that while our Orcish lass is a seething cesspit of villainy and hatred, what sets her apart from the other Orcs is that her rage is of a slightly less mindless and reckless variety as her fellows. Which is why...

I think we should set aside Seven Points to open skills, from our non-general pool. Specifically taking: Intimidation, Riding, Shield-Training, Clan-Wise, Spears, and Name Ritual. And specifically not taking Torture and Brutal Intimidation. While those are powerful Hatred-fueled skills, they allow your Hatred to take control of you more easily. And we want to control our hate, using it as a finely crafted implement of destruction, rather than it controlling us.

To be bold, I suggest using all Five of our general points for opening skills. Specifically, opening Grey-shade Oratory.

How did we sway so many clans to follow us that we became [Name] [Title], [Second Title], The Thrice Great One? Well, we have what few other Orcs have. Oratory skills. We can inspire, rather than just intimidate (although we can do that too). We can make actual points and arguments, rather than simply dismissing others. We can make ourselves heard over the savage din of our kind.

We're destined to become one of the most well-spoken and inspirational Orcs of all time, hence the Grey Shade.

I think someone here has grey-shade Forum Posting.:smallwink:

Anyways, seconding all of the above.

Xefas
2012-11-03, 02:56 AM
Don't forget Brutal Intimidation, which is apparently a separate skill from regular Intimidation (:smallconfused:).

To elaborate on this, for those curious as to why there are two skills that are so similar and/or why you would want to take one over the other:

Intimidation is exactly what you think it would be, and can be taken by any character. You can use it in social combat to threaten, scare, incite, and so on. You can also use it outside of social combat to just make people quiver in fear of you. You get bonuses on Intimidation rolls for factors that make you more unsettling, such as being ludicrously heavily armed, circling your target with thugs and henchmen, or being covered in gore.

Its "Root" stat is Will. The stronger your personality, the more threatening you can be.

Brutal Intimidation is a special Orc-only skill. It does everything that normal Intimidation does. However, its "Root" stat is "Hatred" a special racial stat that only Orcs have, that represents this supernatural font of bestial rage stirring in their heart. Having a high Hatred can be useful in some circumstances, but you don't want to get it too high, or else you become a mindless murder machine (or lapse into an indefinite coma, or commit suicide).

Using Brutal Intimidation contributes to increasing your Hatred.

So, why would you want to use it over normal Intimidation?

Well, one, if you have a low Will, say, because your Orc is more focused on stabbing things to death than talking to them (as in, most of them), having an ostensibly "social" skill that keys off of Hatred instead of Will can be handy.

Two, this skill is special. It's supernatural, and has the capacity to reach beyond the mundane. When you roll for Brutal Intimidation, all "6"s you roll add another die to the roll. And if those are 6s, you get more dice. And if those are 6s, you get more dice. And so on. You can tap into a primordial fountain of bloodlust that makes you potentially more fierce and terrifying than any mortal creature has the right to be. You can rival fear-inducing sorcery and the visage of the gods themselves with this skill. Without having to dedicate yourself to learning magic or taking up a faith.

Potentially.

And you'll probably explode from Hatred build-up beforehand.

But potentially...

Fenix_of_Doom
2012-11-03, 08:43 AM
But yeah. I never appreciated until now just how scary Orcs are, stat-wise.


Well, you have to be fair here, we didn't just build an orc, we build a frikkin warboss, with how many lifepaths again? I lost count. You can't compare that sort of violence with an ordinary human or even orc, I bet that if we build a dwarven king with 8 life paths it would be quite the sight too.

Vote stuff:

Lifepath Skills
Intimidation
Clan-wise
Great Wolf Husbandry
Name Ritual
Spear

I definitely want these skills opened.

question:
we have a grey will stat, shouldn't that mean that all skills keyed to will should be grey as well? And then I mean they should be grey for free.

Siegel
2012-11-03, 09:32 AM
Any skill that roots from a Grey stat is opened as a Grey skill.

The Glyphstone
2012-11-03, 09:41 AM
Any skill that roots from a Grey stat is opened as a Grey skill.

Which stats off our available list root to Fort or Will?

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-11-03, 12:13 PM
Any skill that roots from a Grey stat is opened as a Grey skill.
I am actually not sure about this. Rules are mildly ambiguous. Because in character creation, it says that you have to spend 5 points to open a grey shade skill. It also says elsewhere that skills rooting from Grey stats are opened as Grey skills, but in the context of opening new skills during play.

For the purpose of this thread, I'm gonna make a "GM ruling" that the intent is to still require you to purchase Grey skills with extra skill points, not to get them for free. Mainly because A) that confers hugely massive advantage for characters who Grey Perception/Will (the root of most skills) and B) in terms of story, some of those skills would likely have been "opened" while the character's relevant stat was still Black.

Question for All: Do you just wanna spend those 5 general skill points now to get a Grey-shade Oratory, as was suggested? I do think it's the perfect way for us to create a character who (as was suggested earlier) is able to walk into a room and just take command of the whole room.

Totally Guy
2012-11-03, 12:28 PM
I pretty much use this software for making characters.

Character Burner Online (http://bwgoldburner.appspot.com/)

The orc works without verifying anything too.

Sanguine
2012-11-03, 12:40 PM
Question for All: Do you just wanna spend those 5 general skill points now to get a Grey-shade Oratory, as was suggested? I do think it's the perfect way for us to create a character who (as was suggested earlier) is able to walk into a room and just take command of the whole room.

Yes I would.

Fenix_of_Doom
2012-11-03, 01:04 PM
For the purpose of this thread, I'm gonna make a "GM ruling" that the intent is to still require you to purchase Grey skills with extra skill points, not to get them for free.

I disagree, but I'm not going to argue this point with you here(unless, of course, you want to).



Question for All: Do you just wanna spend those 5 general skill points now to get a Grey-shade Oratory, as was suggested? I do think it's the perfect way for us to create a character who (as was suggested earlier) is able to walk into a room and just take command of the whole room.

I'm fine with opening oratory, but I don't want to invest all 5 points into it, so no grey if you ask me.

Edit: Thanks for the link totally guy!

Sodalite
2012-11-03, 01:14 PM
Question for All: Do you just wanna spend those 5 general skill points now to get a Grey-shade Oratory, as was suggested? I do think it's the perfect way for us to create a character who (as was suggested earlier) is able to walk into a room and just take command of the whole room.

Yes to opening Oratory as Grey.

The Glyphstone
2012-11-03, 03:36 PM
Grey Oratory all the way.

Zelphas
2012-11-03, 03:57 PM
I would also agree with opening Oratory as grey. This orc almost seems like a female Julius Caesar, if we add that...

Analytica
2012-11-03, 04:00 PM
Grey Oratory is probably worth it here, yes.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-11-03, 06:07 PM
Okay, let's summarize. It sounds like most of the posters now want to do the Grey-shade Oratory.

Except that I did some hunting around on the BW forums to make sure; turns out that my ruling is reversed. Word of God (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod) (or close enough, another one of the forum masters who is at BWHQ, I believe) states that skills open at Grey if the root stat is Grey, no matter if it's at character creation. Which is good news, because Oratory is rooted in Will!

So we have more General skills to pick out. Lemme figure out a way to handle those.

Anyhow, for the rest, we have a couple tiers of skills: ones that come with strong voting support, and ones that come with slightly weaker support.

First Tier
B2 Spears
G3 Intimidation
B3 Name Ritual
B3 Clan-wise
G3 Riding

Second Tier
G3 Great Wolf Husbandry
N/A Shield Training
?? Brutal Intimidation

If we took all eight skills, that would use up 9 points. I've listed the ranks that would default in from the roots (Spears, rooted in Agility, and Brutal Intimidation, rooted in Hatred, are the only non-mental roots; everything else is Perception or Will.)

So, are you all onboard to use up all 9 points? Alternately, would everyone just be willing for me to distribute all the skill points according to the order in which they were voted for? (That's the listed order.)

For the general skill points, here's what I'm gonna do. You toss out something you think our orc should be skilled in that isn't covered by the lifepath skills. I'll take the most popular answer, if there's a skill for it (which there probably is), and open that skill too. That'd leave us with two General skills to boost with those points. (If the most popular answer isn't covered, I'll just go to the next one. :smallwink:

If you're stumped, knowledge about specific categories is a "-wise", such as "Clan-wise". Not only are there many -wises, but you can also pretty much invent a -wise if you want. Well, at least, that's how I'd play it, as long as the GM approves it, and that'll be me.

Urpriest
2012-11-03, 06:20 PM
Accounting. Our Orc has risen to the top not just through Oratory, but through a keen understanding of money/teef.

The Glyphstone
2012-11-03, 06:21 PM
Can she go meta with Rules-wise? It would, in addition to her Grey Oratory, explain how she became such a powerful leader.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-11-03, 06:32 PM
Can she go meta with Rules-wise? It would, in addition to her Grey Oratory, explain how she became such a powerful leader.
NO.

:smalltongue:

Sodalite
2012-11-03, 06:50 PM
Hm...I don't quite know what to do with this round, so I'll go ahead and opt out.

Unrelated for the most part, I'm almost tempted to try and do a vote-something-up related to my setting, but I think that might be me overstaying my welcome.

Zelphas
2012-11-03, 07:09 PM
I'm fine with opening up 9 skills. This orc knows how to multitask.

Can I cast a vote in for Rumor-Wise? A good leader always knows the gossip going around about her.

Totally Guy
2012-11-03, 07:37 PM
For general skills, the Doctrine of the dark gods of her clan, Falsehood and Throwing seem like things that may be good for her to have.

From her lifepaths Intimidation, Torture, Axe, Riding, Shield-Training, Spear, Brutal Intimidation and Name Ritual seem important.

I've used Brutal Intimidation as a skill specifically for oppressing lesser orcs using social pressures and being really nasty. Outside of doing that stuff I've asked for the regular Intimidation skill to be used instead. I think that's in line with the description in the book.

Analytica
2012-11-03, 09:40 PM
Technically, she could open up Death Art with a general skill point and use it with her orcish Cold Black Blood trait. Just saying. :smallbiggrin:

The Glyphstone
2012-11-03, 09:41 PM
I have no idea what Death Art is, but if we can get it, I want it. It sounds cool.

Analytica
2012-11-03, 09:49 PM
It is basically necromancy, from the Magic Burner. It doesn't work on orcs since they are elf-derived, but does work on human corpses. You bind the soul to the body and get a zombie which may eventually rebel against you, or do a more thorough ritual that kills a person and makes them into a ghost-thing loyal to you. She could have a home-made undead Praetorian Guard.

Xefas
2012-11-04, 12:10 AM
Except that I did some hunting around on the BW forums to make sure; turns out that my ruling is reversed. Word of God (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod) (or close enough, another one of the forum masters who is at BWHQ, I believe) states that skills open at Grey if the root stat is Grey, no matter if it's at character creation. Which is good news, because Oratory is rooted in Will!


That's kind of a huge deal. Did they list a page number, or some kind of rationale for this? I was under the same impression you were.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-11-04, 01:01 AM
That's kind of a huge deal. Did they list a page number, or some kind of rationale for this? I was under the same impression you were.
Cached thread is here (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3xFvIVtdnGEJ:www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php%3F11390-Gray-Shades-in-Character-Burning+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us), the normal BW site appears to be down.

No specific explanation given, other than that's presumably how it's intended to be played. I've come to suspect that Luke has a very clear idea of Burning Wheel, and he doesn't always write things out clearly.

Fenix_of_Doom
2012-11-04, 06:52 AM
That's kind of a huge deal. Did they list a page number, or some kind of rationale for this? I was under the same impression you were.
I don't really know the rules, but it makes an awful lot of sense to to me.
If you increase you stats, all your skills based of them increase, if you increase your shade, all your skills shades increase.
Why would it be any other way? Obviously the game needs rules to be able to have a higher shade skill without having the corresponding stat high shaded, therefore there is a rule to open grey skills without a grey stat.
I see no contradiction or ambiguity in these rules whatsoever.



So, are you all onboard to use up all 9 points? Alternately, would everyone just be willing for me to distribute all the skill points according to the order in which they were voted for? (That's the listed order.)


1 Sure go for it, I like chars with lots of skills and everybody want these.
2 Not possible, we only voted on skills that weren't automatically gained from the lifepaths so doing this would neglect those skills.
What I think we should do is make a list with all the open skills and then give everybody a chance to vote on the skills they want heightened, maybe 2-3 lifepath skills and 1 general skill?

Siegel
2012-11-04, 06:55 AM
I don't really know the rules, but it makes an awful lot of sense to to me.
If you increase you stats, all your skills based of them increase, if you increase your shade, all your skills shades increase.
Why would it be any other way? Obviously the game needs rules to be able to have a higher shade skill without having the corresponding stat high shaded, therefore there is a rule to open grey skills without a grey stat.
I see no contradiction or ambiguity in these rules whatsoever.

Well that is not 100% true. If i advance my b5 Agility to b6 i don't get extra exponents to my agility based skills. When i open up another agility based skill however it starts at 3 and not at 2.
If my agilty goes gray all skills that i will then open will open gray too. The old skills will stay the same.

Fenix_of_Doom
2012-11-04, 07:13 AM
Well that is not 100% true. If i advance my b5 Agility to b6 i don't get extra exponents to my agility based skills. When i open up another agility based skill however it starts at 3 and not at 2.
If my agilty goes gray all skills that i will then open will open gray too. The old skills will stay the same.

And if you raise one of your stats to grey during play, you don't raise all your associated skills to grey.
Consistency?

Siegel
2012-11-04, 07:17 AM
And if you raise one of your stats to grey during play, you don't raise all your associated skills to grey.
Consistency?

But if you open a up a new skill you can benefit from your new abilities. I think this is consistent. Skills open at the Shade and half Exponent of the stat they are rooted in. Fairly consistent.

Fenix_of_Doom
2012-11-04, 10:14 AM
But if you open a up a new skill you can benefit from your new abilities. I think this is consistent. Skills open at the Shade and half Exponent of the stat they are rooted in. Fairly consistent.

We are in agreement, what I was saying in my first post was that during character creation(didn't mention this, but I considered it obvious) changing your stats changes your skills and in my second post I addressed your issue that during play changing your stats does not change your skills.
This goes for both height and shade and is therefore consistent, if it would only have worked that way for height, then that would have been an odd inconsistency.