[PF] Building an interesting wizard [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

mcv

2012-10-17, 01:48 PM

I have never played a wizard in D&D before because I've always disliked the D&D-style fireball-throwing artillery mage, but after the recent death of my rogue in a magic-poor party, I decided to give it a try. My wizard will start at level 4.

Some background:
The rest of the party is all level 4 and consists of:
A sword-wielding high-damage fighter,
A glaive-wielding fighter,
A ranger with a composite longbow,
A Monk, and
A druid with a Large ape.

(My rogue, a "nighttime entrepreneur", did both ranged, melee, trapfinding and social, but got himself coup-de-grace'd by a ghoul.)

They're in the middle of an Escherian pocket dimension that's the secret vault of an evil, decadent, devil-loving mayor, who's part of the larger devil-loving Lawful-Evil ruling establishment of the country that the heroes want to overthrow or undermine somehow. I figured that the best excuse to get a new member into the party is to have a guest of the mayor have a change of heart, secretly investigate his vault, encounter the PCs and decide to join them.

I do like to emphasize his evil past. Summon devils and demons instead of regular animals and monsters; use other creepy or scary effects, that sort of thing. (He's not really evil though, it's just where he comes from and what he's used to.) I also intend to play him somewhat arrogant and superior, and mundane stuff like combat is beneath him.

I don't want a blaster, but utility spells and battlefield control sound more like my thing. That sounds a bit harder to do right than simple blasting, and I have little experience with magic in D&D, so that's where I need your help.

What school should I pick? What should be my opposed schools? (I first thought I wouldn't be interested in Evocation, but it has lots of interesting spells besides the common damage dealing.) What are spells and feats to take? Which should I avoid?

I've already done a bit of research and found Treant's Guide to Wizards (https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1xjPIOH8F8a0l74BdDF7Q23nCfZ-YX68Xr6JmmtznMw4), which is about the "God Wizard", which relies on battlefield control, debuffing and buffing, which sounds pretty much like what I'm looking for. Though there are some issues that surprised me:

Bonded Object vs. Familiar: Apparently, Bonded Object is bad because it can be taken away and that sucks, while familiars are excellent. I thought that the extra (spontaneous!) spell from the bonded object would be better than the minor bonuses from the familiar.

Is losing a bonded object really that likely? Isn't that only really a problem when your DM is a real bastard? (Then again, my DM might be that kind of bastard too: not only did he coup-de-grace me in the middle of combat, in an Earthdawn campaign he had me lose my thread item, which also set me back.)

But even then, if I just take a ring or amulet or something else that's small (or maybe my spellbook? I'm screwed without that anyway), instead of something obvious like a staff, shouldn't that pretty much eliminate the problem?

Is familiar still better than a bonded object if you take the loss of the bonded object out of consideration?

Schools and their bonus abilities: For the most part it's evaluating the spells and the bonus abilities separately, which makes it hard to compare the schools in their entirety.

For example, about the divination school it says first: "Divination is a great school to have, but a weak school to specialize in." and then: "This makes the specialization in this school a good choice all on its own." So how does that add up?

On the whole, it gives me the impression that Enchantment might be a good candidate for an opposed school. But almost every other school seems like a good specialization candidate. Conjuration apparently has the best spells (I expected Transmutation to be rated higher for its high number of spells), Divination the best bonus abilities, and Illusion the best all-round. I expected Transmutation's Physical Enhancement to be rated higher.

So how accurate is all this? Do people disagree?

Feats: Are Improved Initiative and Toughness really the best feats for a wizard? The rest sounds pretty reasonable, but these two didn't strike me as vital wizard feats. Though I get the survivability and acting first.

He also seems to be a very big fan of horses. But for the most part, this guide seems like a very good guide on what to look for and what to avoid in a wizard.

Are there any other good guides that I should read?

Any other advice that's not in a guidebook, or more personalized for my somewhat evilish-seeming wizard?

What I'm currently leaning towards: an Elf, sky high Int, high Dex, some Con. Extra languages from Linguistics, tons of knowledge skills, spellcraft, etc. And probably either Conjuration or Transmutation as speciality. I think Conjuration fits the theme better. I'm undecided on Feats.

Edit: Perhaps it's worth mentioning that we use Core, APG and Ultimate Magic. Particularly Ultimate Magic sounds like something I should take a look at.

Psyren

2012-10-17, 04:18 PM

Conjuration is THE school for battlefield control. At early levels, you have goodies like Grease, Obscuring Mist/Fog Cloud, Web, Glitterdust, and Create Pit; later you'll be throwing up walls and obstacles of all sorts to keep the monsters lined up, single-file, and standing on their heads for the melee to grind up.

Typically Conjurors ban Evocation and Enchantment. You won't need evocation because Conjuration has blasting of its own, and you won't need Enchantment because Illusion can get you through social or mental situations just as easily. But really you can ban anything and still be useful. Especially since in Pathfinder, "banning" schools does not actually keep you from them completely, you can still cast clutch spells as needed if you pay the magic piper.

And no, you don't need Ultimate Magic. It's got it's goodies, certainly, but all your best spells will be Core. Still, you have it available so you may as well use it.

Squirrel_Dude

2012-10-17, 04:39 PM

On Familiars v. Bonded objects:
Taking a familiar means that you'll be taking the improved familiar feat. Familiars are nice because after level 7 they can cast spells too with UMD. Personally, I recommend a faerie dragon because of it's spell-like abilities and telepathy.

On schools:
You've lost your party rogue, so you may have also lost your face. It's probably not a good idea to give up enchantment then.With a Druid, you shouldn't need to look at conjuration or abjuration too much.

Divination is a good school because of the sub-school of Foresight. In a couple of levels you will find that your wizard will almost always be going first. I've always looked at the schools like this:

Abjuration: Security (favorite spell (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/spells/peacebond.html))
Conjuration: Control, summoned monsters, teleporting (favorite spell (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/hungryPit.html))
Enchantment: For when rogue has a charisma score of 6 (favorite spell (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/irresistibleDance.html))
Evocation: Explosions and force-effects. (favorite spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/emergency-force-sphere))
Divination: For the school powers, but not the spells (favorite spell (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/predictionOfFailure.html))
Illusion: Shadow-X gives it the most versatility (favorite spell (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/visionOfHell.html))
Necromancy: Debuffing, Undead minions (favorite spell (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/magicJar.html))
Transmutation: Buffing, Polymorph, Flight (favorite spell (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/transmuteBloodToAcid.html))
Universal: Wish (Wish)
[Note: Favorite ≠ Best]

So then, knowing that.
Be a transmuter, giving up evocation and divination
or
Spec in Divination, giving up evocation and enchantment

On Feats:
Get improved initiative if you aren't a diviner. Get toughness because you're probably going to have a terribly small amount of hitpoints and 1 extra hit point/level is awesome.

Grab quicken spell around 10th level, and some spell focus stuff before that. Grab Minor-Spell Expertise for the spell like ability (always nice). Spell Perfection is also a pretty good get near the end of a campaign.

Libertad

2012-10-17, 05:23 PM

I agree with the conjuration recommendation. That school is great for battlefield control.

However, don't neglect the other schools. Be sure to give Illusion and Transmutation spells a look over. Your party will appreciate the buffs provided by transmutation, while illusion can be useful in confounding the enemies with imaginary targets and obstacles if played right.

Over on rpg.net, I made a level 5 Conjurer Wizard build for a player looking for help. My post should be near the top of the page. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?656462-3-5-How-do-I-make-a-decent-wizard-at-level-five/page2) It's 3.5 and not Pathfinder, but some tinkering around should convert it.

Corlindale

2012-10-17, 06:13 PM

I'll just chime in and agree with everyone that conjuration is the way to go for a battlefield controller. So many nice spells for this from level 1 through 9.

Teleportation is an excellent subschool, among the best there is. Which schools to ban is a matter of preference, though I would certainly keep Transmutation, Abjuration and probably Illusion. Remember that you can still use banned spells at a steeper cost, though (so even if you ban Evocation you still get Contingency - yay!).

You don't have to specialize conjuration to use conjuration spells, though. Divination (Foresight) and Transmutation (Enchantment) are also fun schools - and since you only need to prepare 1 spell per level from your chosen school you may as well look at the powers you think will be cool too. Even Illusion may be a fun choice - swift action Greater Invisibility is nothing to sneeze at (the equivalent of an 8th level spell at level 8!), and a great tool for a covert controller.

Regarding familiar vs. bonded object I would agree that a familiar is useful, but I also think Treatmonk severely underrates Bonded Object. It depends on your GM, of course, but I don't think losing the bonded object will be a particularly likely scenario in most campaigns unless you're being very careless or your GM is deliberately looking to bother you. The ring or amulet is probably easier to keep save than wands or staves. And the spontaneous "anyspell" will save your life more than once, speaking from experience.

Larpus

2012-10-17, 06:34 PM

I'm here to help clear the OP's couple doubts:

Divination is a fine school because its school power is very good (more on this later) and it helps you know what's down the corner without going there or know things you'd otherwise be unable to.

On the downside, it sucks as an specialization because you're demanded to grab one specialization school spell at every level up (you only get +2 spells per level) and the extra spells slot per spell level/day has to be filled with a spell from the specialization school. And there's the problem, Divination spells aren't useful all the time (some times you won't even prepare them or grab any for that particular spell level) and they have a number overlapping ones.

Still, you should never ban it (unsure if PF allows this) if not for anything else, because Detect Magic is way too useful for no one in the party to have.

Toughness is a bit debatable, but to put it under a different light: supposing you're a 10 Con Wizard, that's the equivalent of +1/4 HP, which can really help you not be dropped on a single strike.

Imp. Initiative however...is very important. Going first allows you to hit many enemies with a single spell (unless it's an ambush, groups tend to band together until battle, where they scatter to avoid AoEs), allows you to shut down a potential threat before it does anything (if you make a Rogue sleep in the first round, it won't be hiding, sneaking nor sneak-attacking anyone) or simply summon something and it will start acting sooner instead of latter.

The motto here is to be pro-active and not reactive; you don't cast Grease because the monsters are moving, you do it before in order to make the monsters fall and/or to force them to avoid a specific part of the battle grid.

On tips, the guide is very good on that, but to surmise things: avoid overlapping of spells (spells that do the same thing) and learn your DM style, that + gut feeling will shape your daily spell selection. For an easy example, if your DM loves social interactions, chances are you'll always have at least a Silent Image prepared, if he loves group fights, then you'll have many AoE, while if he prefer battles against a single big enemy, you'll have powerful single-target spells instead.

And last note, I personally advise against specializing in Enchantment because there are many creatures that are immune to mind-affecting effects (case in point, the entire elf race). Doesn't mean you should ban it, but I wouldn't specialize in it.

Corlindale

2012-10-17, 07:10 PM

And last note, I personally advise against specializing in Enchantment because there are many creatures that are immune to mind-affecting effects (case in point, the entire elf race). Doesn't mean you should ban it, but I wouldn't specialize in it.

To be exact, elves aren't immune to enchantment spells, they just get a small bonus to resist them. Lots of things ARE immune, though, so the point still stands.

Eugenides

2012-10-17, 09:15 PM

While I am not familiar with PF, I do know that 3.5 is similar enough that The Logic Ninja's Guide to Being Batman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002) is well worth a look.

He favors things like what you seem interested in, and would be well worth comparing to Treant.

Eldariel

2012-10-17, 10:32 PM

The Familiars in PF are really good. Compared to 3.5 you have Good versions of Imp and Quasit in Silvashnee (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/agathion/agathion-silvanshee) and Cassisian Angel (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/angel/angel-cassisian). Those are both amazing. Also, familiars have their own sets of actions which comes in handy even before they get to cast stuff in things such as active Perception-checks, picking stuff up, delivering charges and so on. Just get to know what they can do and they're really useful.

And yes, it just so happens Fireball-throwing Wizards are kinda mediocre in D&D 3.X and derivatives (such as Pathfinder) so you're definitely in the right game for what you want to do. A Conjurer focused on battlefield control spells, an Illusionist focused on creative use of Images or a Transmuter focused on battlefield control are all fine.

Conjurer is probably the best way to go; the Teleportation School Power variant is pretty good also and probably what you want. All the key spells are listed in the Batman guide, Treantmonk's guide or whatever so there's little need to delve into that, but basically, pack a mix of ways to make people sit down and shut up with any save (so you can target weak saves; don't forget to max Knowledges as this is an easy in-character way of finding them out), some sculpting abilities that don't directly need to affect your enemies and touch spells/Black Tentacles/etc.

On low levels you want access to Charm Person but you get that past ban anyways which makes Enchantment an easy ban. The second one is a bit harder, it's either Evocation or Necromancy. Both do broadly the same things and have overlapping utility with other schools. I generally prefer keeping Necromancy just 'cause Enervation is pretty good and I like having False Lifes up early.

It's worth noting that the Universalist Ability on level 8 is pretty darn good. Too bad that means you have to be an Universalist.

Stats, 20 Int (Elf, Human, Half-Elf, some such), preferably 14 Con, rest in Dex (and Wis/Cha; Str is the biggest dump). You can work with the Favored Class bonuses to get the early HP you need and later focus on getting even more skill points.

Toughness is "nice to have" but nothing important, and Improved Initiative is pretty good. Don't forget Extend/Quicken Spell, Crafts and Spell Penetrations either tho (and Spell Focus: Conjuration is okay if you're gonna want it for qualifications tho without Archmage that's less of an issue in PF).

mcv

2012-10-17, 10:54 PM

Typically Conjurors ban Evocation and Enchantment. You won't need evocation because Conjuration has blasting of its own, and you won't need Enchantment because Illusion can get you through social or mental situations just as easily.
My worries about banning evocation isn't because of the blasting; we've got plenty of damage in the group, and I plan on doing as little as possible myself. But evocation is also the home of force spells, and that seems rather useful for dealing with many situations, and if I'm not mistaken, they're vital for dealing with incorporeal creatures.

On Familiars v. Bonded objects:
Taking a familiar means that you'll be taking the improved familiar feat. Familiars are nice because after level 7 they can cast spells too with UMD. Personally, I recommend a faerie dragon because of it's spell-like abilities and telepathy.
In another group, we have a wizard with a pseudodragon already. I don't want to copy that too closely, and if I go the familiar route, I think I'd prefer the option of having something demonic, like an imp or something.

On schools:
You've lost your party rogue, so you may have also lost your face. It's probably not a good idea to give up enchantment then.
I admit I'm not sure if there's anyone else in the group with decent charisma, but, despite being a city-based campaign and us just having been at a big party, this campaign doesn't seem to focus much on social. In fact, I think the DM skips all the social/city bits to quickly get us back to the action. My rogue's desire to do social stuff didn't really amount to much. So I think maybe we don't need a face at all.

With a Druid, you shouldn't need to look at conjuration or abjuration too much.
Doesn't the PF Druid have to choose a bit more between all the different things he used to be excellent at in 3.5? In any case, so far, our druid has mostly been casting Resistance in combat and letting his big ape handle the actual useful stuff. I don't think I'm treading on his toes if I start summoning stuff.

Thanks for all the other advice by everybody! You guy practically unanimous in recommending Conjuration, so that's now at the top of the list. I do see the advantage of the Divination abilities, but as Larpus points out, it's a lot harder to memorize one Divination spell per level than it is with Conjuration.

But:

On the downside, it sucks as an specialization because you're demanded to grab one specialization school spell at every level up (you only get +2 spells per level) and the extra spells slot per spell level/day has to be filled with a spell from the specialization school.
Is it really true that one of my two new spells for my spellbook each level has to be from my specialization school? That's pretty limiting. I can't find this anywhere in the Wizard class (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/wizard.html#_wizard), however. Do you know where that rule is from?

mcv

2012-10-17, 11:18 PM

Larpus

2012-10-18, 12:44 AM

Is it really true that one of my two new spells for my spellbook each level has to be from my specialization school? That's pretty limiting. I can't find this anywhere in the Wizard class (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/wizard.html#_wizard), however. Do you know where that rule is from?
Here:

Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, he gains two spells of his choice to add to his spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels he can cast. If he has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from his specialty school.
That's why it's important to choose a school that has versatility and spells that you'll want at every level-up.

Hylas

2012-10-18, 02:46 AM

Here:

That's why it's important to choose a school that has versatility and spells that you'll want at every level-up.

Which is the one weakness of specializing in Divination. It's also the reason I recommend taking Conjuration. Specifically the version that lets you teleport around all of the time.

If you're into summoning monsters to do your bidding be sure to check out Augment Summoning (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/augment-summoning---final) and Superior Summoning (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/superior-summoning). Yeah you need Spell Focus (Conjuration) but increasing the DCs of one of the best schools isn't so bad.

Crustypeanut

2012-10-18, 03:20 AM

I'm currently playing something -very- similar in a campaign right now.

He's a level 2 Human Conjurer (Teleportation Subschool), who's chosen Necromancy and Enchantment as his opposition schools. He's Old, at 53, and his stats are.. well.. odd to say the least:

Str 4
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 22
Wis 9
Cha 9

Basically, he's a genius, but.. thats about it. As for his first two feats, I chose Improved Initiative (Along with Reactionary Trait and Greensting Scorpion) for a total of +8 Initiative and Toughness, so that at level 2 I currently have 20 hp (4 from Con, 3 from Toughness, 2 from Favored Class, 11 from hit-dice).

He doesn't have really anything in the way of blaster spells, and focuses heavily on summons, greases, color sprays. He also uses Acid Splash buffed with using an Alchemy Focus (A flask of Acid) so that it does 1d3+1, instead of using a crossbow. He's quite.. easy to hit as well, with 10 AC normally, and 14 with Mage Armor.

As for Skills, He's the group's knowledge monkey and craft monkey. At level 1 he had +10 to any knowledge skill he chose, and right now he has +11 in a few. While he hasn't gotten the chance to use these, he also has Craft (Weapons, Armor, Alchemy), with a +10 in each.

My main focus for him, since this campaign is going to be money-tight, will be to craft magic items for the group. Nearly all of his feats will go into that. I plan on taking Craft Wondrous at level 3, Craft Magic Arms and Armor at level 5 along with Craft Construct as a bonus feat, then Improved Familiar (Homonculus) at level 7, followed by the other craft feats and some arcane discoveries. Due to his abnormally high Spellcraft skills, he should be able to fudge as needed for some prereqs on making magic items. I may or may not end up taking Skill Focus (Spellcraft), if it becomes a problem with too many skipped Prereqs.

So far, its working well, although I've been playing a bit too cautiously.. the rest of my party consists of a Human Knight (from 3.5), a Human Oracle of Battle (Who uses a bajillion different polearms), a Human Fighter with a Falchion, and a Human Rogue who's the second char of the Knight. I'm the sole dispensor of arcane power of the group.

mcv

2012-10-18, 03:40 AM

He's a level 2 Human Conjurer (Teleportation Subschool), who's chosen Necromancy and Enchantment as his opposition schools. He's Old, at 53, and his stats are.. well.. odd to say the least:

Str 4
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 22
Wis 9
Cha 9
How do you get Int 22 at level 2? Does this include an item bonus?

As for his first two feats, I chose Improved Initiative (Along with Reactionary Trait and Greensting Scorpion) for a total of +8 Initiative
That's an interesting idea. I haven't looked at traits at all yet. (I'm still trying to find a list of our campaign traits.) With my high Dex, Initiative could be even higher. (Still doesn't come close to the Divination ability, but I'm sure it helps.)

Due to his abnormally high Spellcraft skills, he should be able to fudge as needed for some prereqs on making magic items. I may or may not end up taking Skill Focus (Spellcraft), if it becomes a problem with too many skipped Prereqs.
How does that work? Can you skip prereqs with a high enough Spellcraft?

Analytica

2012-10-18, 04:19 AM

Malroth

2012-10-18, 04:34 AM

+2 to all mental stats for being "old"

Crustypeanut

2012-10-18, 04:48 AM

How do you get Int 22 at level 2? Does this include an item bonus?

That's an interesting idea. I haven't looked at traits at all yet. (I'm still trying to find a list of our campaign traits.) With my high Dex, Initiative could be even higher. (Still doesn't come close to the Divination ability, but I'm sure it helps.)

How does that work? Can you skip prereqs with a high enough Spellcraft?

18 in Intelligence (17 points), +2 to all mental attributes from being Old, +2 from Human Racial Bonus. No items, yet. Long term, including items, I should be able to get to 38.. (+5 from Levels, +5 from Wish, +6 from Items).. but then again thats thinking far in the future.

Initiative is so important for wizards.. if you want to go even more nuts, go with high dex, imp initiative, the trait, the familiar, AND divination.. hehehe. but even without Divination, at a +3 Dex, you could have +11 easy. On top of that, if you're expecting combat, theres a spell that increases your next initiative roll by +1 per CL (Max +5).. its a 1st level spell.

Some prereqs you cannot skip, such as item-creation prereqs and knowing the spell for potions, spell completion, and spell trigger items, but everything else you can fudge at the expense of increased spellcraft checks to make the item.

If you're not too familiar with how magic-item creation goes, heres a quick info on it: The DC to craft an item is 5 + the CL for the item. For scrolls, potions, and wands, its that simple, but you need the spell to make those. For other items, such as Wondrous, Rings, etc, its the same, but you can fudge things like prereq spells, prereq classes, races, feats, or alignment. Each of these Prereqs you do not meet increase the DC by +5 to make the item. EACH. They stack. So if you fail to meet two, thats +10.

For example, lets say you want to make a Ring of Protection as a Wizard. That requires Shield of Faith (A Cleric Spell, which we do not have). The CL of this item is 5th, so thats a DC 10 Spellcraft to make normally. Since we don't have the spell, it increases to DC 15. Lets say we want to make a bigger item, a Ring of Shooting Stars. For some reason, we don't have 3 of the 4 spells needed to make it. Its CL is 12th, so thats a DC 17 to start with, +15 from not having the spells, so a DC 32. Bit harder, but not too hard later on. Personally, in most cases I won't try to make an item that I can't take a 10 on, because hell if I'm going to waste money and time to make it and not get it (or get a cursed item).

Theres one thing I'm not 100% sure about, and thats if you can fudge the Minimum CL to make Prereq for say, Golems or Magic Weapons and Armor. If, say, the Minimum CL to make a specific golem is 12, but you want to make it at 5, I don't know if thats possible or not, as the book doesn't specifically mention you can't, but I'm not sure.

----------------

Edit: One thing that the other guys in that campaign are always teasing me on is the 4 str.. a light load for me is up to 13 pounds, while heavy only goes to 39.. I'm going to invest early in Muleback Cords that will increase my strength by 8 for the purpose of carrying capacity.

I also like to keep track of my spell components, and even was hired as the group's chef (Despite having a -1 to profession: Cook) due to the abnormal amount of butter I carry on hand (For Grease).. XD

mcv

2012-10-18, 04:52 AM

Do not worry overly about optimization as per the guides. You will be really strong anyway, so...

I would go Conjurer, specifically Infernal Binder to get that Chelaxian academy-trained feel:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/conjuration/infernal-binder

This gives you free Improved Familiar and lets you steal summons from others. I would restrict (not ban, just make spells take double slots) probably evocation and illusion.
That's definitely incredibly appropriate, as we are playing in Cheliax. I wonder if the DM is going to be unpleasantly surprised by that Assume Control ability at some point. But it's also incredibly circumstantial. How often are we going to encounter summoned creatures? Well, this being Cheliax, perhaps more often than in other campaigns.

Likewise I would go human for flavor.
I almost always play humans. I thought I'd try something different for a change. But I admit human does seem most appropriate.

Probably take that feat that gives you both HP and SP when you take a favoured class level, rather than Toughness.
For even more skill points? If I take a human, I already get an extra skillpoint every level, and I think I have plenty as it is. I think I'd rather get two bonus HP.

18 in Intelligence (17 points), +2 to all mental attributes from being Old, +2 from Human Racial Bonus.
Where are the rules for being Old? I assume I'd also get a -2 on all physical stats?

On top of that, if you're expecting combat, theres a spell that increases your next initiative roll by +1 per CL (Max +5).. its a 1st level spell.
Could be useful. Do you know which spell or which book it's in?

If you're not too familiar with how magic-item creation goes, heres a quick info on it: The DC to craft an item is 5 + the CL for the item. For scrolls, potions, and wands, its that simple, but you need the spell to make those. For other items, such as Wondrous, Rings, etc, its the same, but you can fudge things like prereq spells, prereq classes, races, feats, or alignment. Each of these Prereqs you do not meet increase the DC by +5 to make the item. EACH. They stack. So if you fail to meet two, thats +10.

For example, lets say you want to make a Ring of Protection as a Wizard. That requires Shield of Faith (A Cleric Spell, which we do not have). The CL of this item is 5th, so thats a DC 10 Spellcraft to make normally. Since we don't have the spell, it increases to DC 15.
Thanks. I didn't know that yet. Does this mean I'd be able to make arcane wands of Cure Light Wounds or Lesser Restoration? Could I make arcane scrolls with spells not on the wizard spell list and use those?

Edit: One thing that the other guys in that campaign are always teasing me on is the 4 str.. a light load for me is up to 13 pounds,
That's barely enough to wear clothes. (Clothes can be heavy in PF, I noticed.)

I'm going to invest early in Muleback Cords that will increase my strength by 8 for the purpose of carrying capacity.
Again something I haven't heard of. Sounds incredibly good. Though I suppose a Handy Haversack and an Efficient Quiver are also pretty vital with that kind of Strength.

Crustypeanut

2012-10-18, 05:21 AM

Where are the rules for being Old? I assume I'd also get a -2 on all physical stats?

Chapter 7 Player's Handbook. And no, its -3 on all physical stats. For the first age increment, its -1 to physical, +1 to mental. For the second, -2 to physical, +1 to mental (in addition to the previous category), for the third, -3 to physical, +1 to mental, for a total of -6 to physical, +3 to mental.

Could be useful. Do you know which spell or which book it's in?

The spell is Anticipate Peril, Ultimate Magic.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-list-filters/sorcerer-wizard-spell-list-filter is what I use for spells, as it has all official spells and even 3rd party spells down at the bottom.

Thanks. I didn't know that yet. Does this mean I'd be able to make arcane wands of Cure Light Wounds or Lesser Restoration? Could I make arcane scrolls with spells not on the wizard spell list and use those?

Negatory, for potions, wands, and scrolls you specifically need the spell prepared in order to make the item. However, if a wondrous item allows you to touch someone and heal them (lets say it requires cure light wounds), you CAN fudge it and make that item.

Witches, however, can make arcane wands of cure light wounds because it happens to be on their spell list. However, even though its an arcane wand, your wizard CANNOT use it like a normal wand because its not on HIS spell list. You'd require UMD to use it.

That's barely enough to wear clothes. (Clothes can be heavy in PF, I noticed.)

Luckily for us, our DM allows clothes to be free from encumbrance. Plus, I only wear a dark-blue silk robe and boots (and HOPEFULLY undergarments, but my guy is a bit creepy so you never know) The robe would only be one or two pounds.

Again something I haven't heard of. Sounds incredibly good. Though I suppose a Handy Haversack and an Efficient Quiver are also pretty vital with that kind of Strength.

Theres another item, found in the Ultimate Equipment guide, that is a belt that gives you permanent Ant Haul. Our DM has stated specifically it does NOT stack with the Muleback Cords (If it did, our fighter could carry about 2,000 pounds), so its either triple my meagre 13 pounds, or increase it to 43 pounds. Not much of a difference either way, but yes, the Handy Haversack and Bags of Holding (Which I can make next level, if I had the money) will be very important. Eventually, I'll invent some kind of mule-construct that carries everything. Our DM is relatively lax on inventing new magic items, as long as I talk to him about it. And my guy will be heavily themed with constructs.

My familiar at level 7 will be a custom made Homonculus.. since in the Ultimate Magic it talks about how to customize your constructs by adding armor, weapons, runes, etc, I may make this homonculus come with a built-in Heavy Repeating Crossbow (It'll be a Tiny one though hahaha)

Eldariel

2012-10-18, 07:31 AM

He doesn't have really anything in the way of blaster spells, and focuses heavily on summons, greases, color sprays. He also uses Acid Splash buffed with using an Alchemy Focus (A flask of Acid) so that it does 1d3+1, instead of using a crossbow. He's quite.. easy to hit as well, with 10 AC normally, and 14 with Mage Armor.

Low-level Wizards would often do well to employ human walls. Stealth is the other option. Also, it's worth noting that if you can afford it, Alchemist's Fires offer a very reasonable Touch Attack for 2d6 damage on low levels if you do wish to hurt things.

Is there an alignment problem to having an Imp or Quasit? My wizard will most likely be neutral, but for thematic reasons I like to work with evil outsiders whenever I can get away with it.

Improved Familiar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/improved-familiar):
"When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed here are also available to you. You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil)."

So not a problem at all. Indeed, a True Neutral character can have any familiar alignment-wise.

I'm not that attached to Charm Person anyway. I mean, it's a great spell, but it doesn't really fit this character well, I think. The main problem is that we might not have a party face (though it's possible the Ranger has decent Charisma, now that I think of it).

Well, it's good to have access to. You never need to prepare it but if you e.g. get a prisoner or know you need to convince somebody, you can rest overnight and Charm them in the morning (using two slots if Enchantment is banned; it's fine).

Later, Charm Monster can also be clutch when dealing with Planar Bound creatures (sounds like your character could be interested in that). But again, in PF you can prepare a spell from banned school by expending an extra slot of that level so it's okay, you still have school access.

I also like Necromancy for thematic reasons, though Evocation has force spells and lots of walls. But what other options are there?

Really one or the other. Evocation has Walls, but so does Conjuration (Force Walls are more durable but generally Stone Walls are durable enough and infinitely more shapeable) so you won't miss them overtly much and eventually you'll be able to prepare Contingency anyways since this is Pathfinder (you can also use Greater Shadow Evocation to accomplish this but in PF it's generally more sensible to just burn two slots), and that's the only must-have Evocation.

But yeh, for Planar Binding, Abjuration, Conjuration and Enchantment are really useful (also Necro to debuff bound things and Trans to buff yourself), which is something to keep in mind.

The stats I'm currently looking at are an Elf with:
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 20
Wis 10
Cha 8

Your stats outside Int/Dex/Con are really personal preference. Tho Cha is useful for Planar Binding, mind.

Eldariel

2012-10-18, 07:48 AM

mcv

2012-10-18, 07:56 AM

Clothes are always free of encumbrance (and cost) anyways. At least in D&D 3.5. Page 131 of the Player's Handbook under Clothing:
"Different characters may want different outfits for various occasions. A beginning character is assumed to have an artisan’s, entertainer’s, explorer’s, monk’s, peasant’s, scholar’s, or traveler’s outfit. This first outfit is free and does not count against the amount of weight a character can carry."
Well, that would have saved my deceased rogue quite a bit of headache; he was always struggling with his carrying capacity (despite his Str of 14), and part of that was the weight of clothes. I think PCGen included that in the total, so I was quite surprised to start the game encumbered.

Addition:

How important is Perception really for a wizard? I believe Treantmonk recommends it, but it's not a class skill. If I really want to be any good at it, I'd probably take the Eyes and Ears of the City trait. But I don't mind relying on our Ranger, Monk and Druid for all our perception needs. Is there a specific reason why a wizard should have perception anyway?

Corlindale

2012-10-18, 09:00 AM

It's true that in many scenarios having good perception scores in the other party members will suffice, but there are still a few reasons why you might want it as a wizard:
1) Often, perception scores during an ambush (and those happen a lot in most campaigns) determine who gets to act in the surprise round - which is a BIG DEAL for a controller wizard, since that's usually the time he can make the most use of a well-placed spell - maybe even negating large parts of the ambush before they happen.
2) There will be scenarios when your designated scouts roll badly, and may miss something crucial, so it doesn't hurt to have more chances of succes.

And you have the skill points for it, so why not? I would only skip perception if I played a diviner - and even then not necessarily - because argument 1 is moot with your school power anyway.

Crustypeanut

2012-10-18, 09:08 AM

You could also look into magic items that increase perception.

If you have Craft Wondrous Item, you don't need to put a point in Perception ever. Just make a Headband of Intellect +2 or higher and make sure one of the skills is Perception. The Headband gives you 1 rank per level in one skill of the creator's choice.

Lets say you wear it at level 4 - thats 4 ranks free in that skill while you're wearing the headband. As you level up, you gain ranks in that

I Personally will be making the Headband with Perception, Sense Motive, and Fly with my wizard.

Eldariel

2012-10-18, 09:48 AM

How important is Perception really for a wizard? I believe Treantmonk recommends it, but it's not a class skill. If I really want to be any good at it, I'd probably take the Eyes and Ears of the City trait. But I don't mind relying on our Ranger, Monk and Druid for all our perception needs. Is there a specific reason why a wizard should have perception anyway?

Regardless of who you are, Perception is good. You can also make it in-class with trait, and as an Elf (+2 from racial) Wizard (+2 from Familiar's Alertness) you'll be really good at it too.

Sometimes you're acting alone or are temporarily isolated. Sometimes you act first and what you see matters. Elves detect secret doors automatically. Sometimes your Perception roll determines if you step on that trap. Sometimes you need personal Perception to see a hiding opponent to avoid miss chances. Won Perception checks can get you surprise rounds (real nice since the strongest Standard Actions in the game are Wizard spells; you have the same impact on surprise round as normal round).

In PF, I max Perception on every single character I make unless not having it is a specific character quirk.

mcv

2012-10-18, 09:50 AM

I get the point. Perception is important if I want to be useful in ambushes, which I want, of course. I guess Perception as a class skill is more important than a +2 to initiative then?

If you have Craft Wondrous Item, you don't need to put a point in Perception ever. Just make a Headband of Intellect +2 or higher and make sure one of the skills is Perception. The Headband gives you 1 rank per level in one skill of the creator's choice.

How would that work with class skills and trait bonuses? It says it doesn't stack with the ranks I have, but if I don't have any ranks in it, while I do have Eyes and Ears of the City, it sounds to me like that should stack, right?

Eldariel

2012-10-18, 09:55 AM

I get the point. Perception is important if I want to be useful in ambushes, which I want, of course. I guess Perception as a class skill is more important than a +2 to initiative then?

The two are intertwined; there are times when you need to win the Perception check for the surprise round and then times you just want to win the initiative. Occasionally you can act twice before the opponent if you win both so...yeah. Besides, don't the traits give you something else too?

How would that work with class skills and trait bonuses? It says it doesn't stack with the ranks I have, but if I don't have any ranks in it, while I do have Eyes and Ears of the City, it sounds to me like that should stack, right?

Eh, it doesn't really matter. You just get extra skill points from high Intelligence; whether you use those points or other points for Perception is immaterial.

mcv

2012-10-18, 09:59 AM

The two are intertwined; there are times when you need to win the Perception check for the surprise round and then times you just want to win the initiative. Occasionally you can act twice before the opponent if you win both so...yeah.
Yeah, but in this case I have to choose. I get 2 traits. One is going to be a campaign trait, and the other is likely going to be either +1 to Perception and have it as a class skill (for a total of +4 once I get ranks in it), or a +2 to initiative. Both are really attractive.

Besides, don't the traits give you something else too?
Some nice background details. In that respect, Reactionary works better with the background I have in mind.

Eh, it doesn't really matter. You just get extra skill points from high Intelligence; whether you use those points or other points for Perception is immaterial.
Well, it matters if my Headband of Vast Intellect is going to boost a class skill. If it doesn't benefit from class skills, maybe it's smarter to have it boost a non-class skill.

Eldariel

2012-10-18, 10:04 AM

Yeah, but in this case I have to choose. I get 2 traits. One is going to be a campaign trait, and the other is likely going to be either +1 to Perception and have it as a class skill (for a total of +4 once I get ranks in it), or a +2 to initiative. Both are really attractive.

I'd go with the Perception.

Well, it matters if my Headband of Vast Intellect is going to boost a class skill. If it doesn't benefit from class skills, maybe it's smarter to have it boost a non-class skill.

It's just extra skill points. There's no special distinction between the two.

Crustypeanut

2012-10-18, 10:04 AM

Give it a boost to a non-class skill I'd say. Generally, you'll want class skills period. If you lose your headband, you'll lose your class skills in this case. The exception would be Fly, as you don't absolutely need that until later levels.

As for traits, My wizard picked Hedge Magician (5% discount on crafting magic items) and Reactionary (+2 Initiative)

Instead of Hedge Magician, you could go with Focused (+2 Concentration) or anything else you'd want.. that would be my next choice, though.

mcv

2012-10-18, 11:09 AM

I'd go with the Perception.
Turns out I made a mistake: Eyes and Ears of the City is Lawful-Neutral only. Way too specific for me. So I guess I'm going with the Initiative boost instead.

I don't think I have another way to make Perception a class skill, so I guess I have to rely on other bonuses.

As for traits, My wizard picked Hedge Magician (5% discount on crafting magic items) and Reactionary (+2 Initiative)

Instead of Hedge Magician, you could go with Focused (+2 Concentration) or anything else you'd want.. that would be my next choice, though.
My second trait is going to be the campaign trait Diabolist Raised. Not terribly useful, but the background is too perfect to not take it.

Eldariel

2012-10-18, 11:12 AM

Tomb Raider works though it's a Golarion trait; still, if that's down your alley, roll with it.

Squirrel_Dude

2012-10-18, 11:17 AM

My worries about banning evocation isn't because of the blasting; we've got plenty of damage in the group, and I plan on doing as little as possible myself. But evocation is also the home of force spells, and that seems rather useful for dealing with many situations, and if I'm not mistaken, they're vital for dealing with incorporeal creatures.If you're dealing with incorporeal creatures, then it wouldn't be a terrible thing to give up.

In another group, we have a wizard with a pseudodragon already. I don't want to copy that too closely, and if I go the familiar route, I think I'd prefer the option of having something demonic, like an imp or something.Sir, my faerie dragon (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/dragonFaerie.html#_dragon,-faerie) is no pseudodragon. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/pseudodragon.html)

If you want something that's a bit more demonic, though, you could try a Doru Div. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/div.html#_div,-doru)

I admit I'm not sure if there's anyone else in the group with decent charisma, but, despite being a city-based campaign and us just having been at a big party, this campaign doesn't seem to focus much on social. In fact, I think the DM skips all the social/city bits to quickly get us back to the action. My rogue's desire to do social stuff didn't really amount to much. So I think maybe we don't need a face at all.*shrug* If you're DM doesn't use faces, then don't build a face. Enchantment spells can still be handy, but you certainly shouldn't prioritize them or specialize in them.

Doesn't the PF Druid have to choose a bit more between all the different things he used to be excellent at in 3.5? In any case, so far, our druid has mostly been casting Resistance in combat and letting his big ape handle the actual useful stuff. I don't think I'm treading on his toes if I start summoning stuff.My point was that a Druid has all the energy resistances, the magic fang to improve summons, and the spontaneous casting of summon monster, in addition to some pretty good battlefield controls. Certainly they have to pick through them a bit more, but if you specialize in conjuration or abjuration you would probably be stepping on some toes.

Even if you aren't stepping on toes, I think that it's poor party optimization because you would be specializing in something that a Druid can already do pretty well. Most Druids will probably get Augment Summoning, too. I certainly don't think that you should forgo the school, that would be crazy. I just think that you're party will be stronger if you and the Druid specialize in different areas. If you can do the buffing, then he can do the summoning, and vice-versa. It saves a little time and actions in combat.

Thanks for all the other advice by everybody! You guy practically unanimous in recommending Conjuration, so that's now at the top of the list. I do see the advantage of the Divination abilities, but as Larpus points out, it's a lot harder to memorize one Divination spell per level than it is with Conjuration.

But:

Is it really true that one of my two new spells for my spellbook each level has to be from my specialization school? That's pretty limiting. I can't find this anywhere in the Wizard class (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/wizard.html#_wizard), however. Do you know where that rule is from?I don't remember that rule, either.

*reads through thread*
Well F me silly.

I should say that, when it comes to wizards, my experience is:The first wizard I played, actually, both wizards I played were diviners (forgoing evocation and necromancy) who actually specialized in conjuration(spell focus+augment summoning). It should be noted that in both cases I have had a vampire sorcerer and graveknight cleric to fill those roles for me.

Eldariel

2012-10-18, 11:25 AM

My point was that a Druid has all the energy resistances, the magic fang to improve summons, and the spontaneous casting of summon monster, in addition to some pretty good battlefield controls. Certainly they have to pick through them a bit more, but if you specialize in conjuration or abjuration you would probably be stepping on some toes.

Even if you aren't stepping on toes, I think that it's poor party optimization because you would be specializing in something that a Druid can already do pretty well. Most Druids will probably get Augment Summoning, too. I certainly don't think that you should forgo the school, that would be crazy. I just think that you're party will be stronger if you and the Druid specialize in different areas. If you can do the buffing, then he can do the summoning, and vice-versa. It saves a little time and actions in combat.

Wizard Conjurations are much better than Druid Conjurations outside summoning anyways. Whereas Druid pretty much has Entangle & Soften Earth early on, Wizards have Web, Glitterdust, Grease, Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles & Solid Fog over the first levels.

Wizards are the "primary" controllers in the game, while Druids are secondary (though fairly good at it). Druid still has better combat summons for the most parts (though Wizard list does replicate some useful spell-likes) and there's nothing wrong with two controllers in the party though so they should stack just fine without either feeling useless (besides, Druid has a ton of other things to do thanks to Wildshape, Companion and unique spell list).

And frankly, the more Dispel Magics/Resist Energies/etc. your party can cast, the less resources any single character needs to devote to it. Having two characters capable of casting it doesn't take anything away from each since it's not weird to cast single-target buffs 10-20 times per day between the party (once for each element for each character), and Dispels are always in demand. If anything, having more people to cover it frees up slots for each to do other stuff too.

EDIT: It's worth noting that in an optimal party, all 4 have battlefield control capability since depending on what exactly is needed and positioning, it can be efficient for anyone to do it. Casters don't need to devote all their resources to be good controllers, after all.

Squirrel_Dude

2012-10-18, 11:40 AM

Wizard Conjurations are much better than Druid Conjurations outside summoning anyways. Whereas Druid pretty much has Entangle & Soften Earth early on, Wizards have Web, Glitterdust, Grease, Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles & Solid Fog over the first levels.

Wizards are the "primary" controllers in the game, while Druids are secondary (though fairly good at it). Druid still has better combat summons for the most parts (though Wizard list does replicate some useful spell-likes) and there's nothing wrong with two controllers in the party though so they should stack just fine without either feeling useless (besides, Druid has a ton of other things to do thanks to Wildshape, Companion and unique spell list).

And frankly, the more Dispel Magics/Resist Energies/etc. your party can cast, the less resources any single character needs to devote to it. Having two characters capable of casting it doesn't take anything away from each since it's not weird to cast single-target buffs 10-20 times per day between the party (once for each element for each character), and Dispels are always in demand. If anything, having more people to cover it frees up slots for each to do other stuff too.

EDIT: It's worth noting that in an optimal party, all 4 have battlefield control capability since depending on what exactly is needed and positioning, it can be efficient for anyone to do it. Casters don't need to devote all their resources to be good controllers, after all.I agree with you on all points there, except for one. If they are both doing control, then they won't really be freeing up any other spell casters to help them. The party consists of 4 martial classes, a Druid and a Fighter. Okay, the Ranger is a caster (kind of), but other than that, you have 3 characters who need the Wizard and Druid to be on their game with buffs and control and holding off a caster.

I just think that a specialization in conjuration would be a bad choice. Especially with other options like Transmutation (Enhancement), Divination (Foresight), or Illusion (Shadow), Abjuration (Counterspell) also on the table. I don't think much is lost by not specializing in conjuration, but that more could be gained.

It also depends on how many combats are expected during the day.

mcv

2012-10-18, 03:17 PM

Tomb Raider works though it's a Golarion trait; still, if that's down your alley, roll with it.
What is a Golarion trait? I can't find this trait in PCGen at all. I can find it on http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/traits-db, but I have no idea where it's from or whether I can use it. Do you know from which book it is?

If you're dealing with incorporeal creatures, then it wouldn't be a terrible thing to give up.
I don't understand. What is the best way to deal with incorporeal creatures, if not Evocation?

Sir, my faerie dragon (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/dragonFaerie.html#_dragon,-faerie) is no pseudodragon. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/pseudodragon.html)
Point taken. I blindly assumed they were similar, but that Faerie Dragon is really quite a bit nicer.

If you want something that's a bit more demonic, though, you could try a Doru Div. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/div.html#_div,-doru)
I was actually leaning towards an Imp, but I'll make a more thorough comparison one day soon.

*shrug* If you're DM doesn't use faces, then don't build a face. Enchantment spells can still be handy, but you certainly shouldn't prioritize them or specialize in them.
Any school can be handy, but I still need to select two opposition schools.

My point was that a Druid has all the energy resistances, the magic fang to improve summons, and the spontaneous casting of summon monster, in addition to some pretty good battlefield controls. Certainly they have to pick through them a bit more, but if you specialize in conjuration or abjuration you would probably be stepping on some toes.
I'm definitely not going to specialize in Abjuration, but does the Druid have access to Protection from Evil/Chaos/etc? I thought he didn't.

I actually have a Druid in a 3.5 campaign, but he never really seems to be much of a battlefield controller. Maybe I'm playing him wrong, though. And the Druid has changed quite dramatically in Pathfinder of course. Still, isn't battlefield control mostly a matter of play style? So far, this Druid doesn't seem to be doing much of it. I suspect he's mostly planning on buffing his ape, but maybe I should ask him.

Even if you aren't stepping on toes, I think that it's poor party optimization because you would be specializing in something that a Druid can already do pretty well. Most Druids will probably get Augment Summoning, too. I certainly don't think that you should forgo the school, that would be crazy. I just think that you're party will be stronger if you and the Druid specialize in different areas. If you can do the buffing, then he can do the summoning, and vice-versa. It saves a little time and actions in combat.
I think I may skip the low-level summoning. I suppose I could leave that to him while I focus on other aspects of battlefield control, but to be honest, I think the druid's player will be more interested in a straight-forward brute force approach. Whereas I'd like to show (or try, at least) how a wizard can be effective without ever doing damage.

I'm also wondering if maybe he could focus a bit on healing, since we don't have a real healer in the group. Though of course the point of battlefield control is to try to make healers unnecessary.

In the end, though, we do have a balance issue in the group. Plenty of damage dealers, but no healer, no arcane spellcaster (until my wizard shows up), and after the death of my rogue, no lockpicker/trapfinder/skill monkey/face. But I'm really not going to make a clone of a character that just died. In fact, I think a Bard might perfectly fit that hole, but the group hates Bards. But a wizard is an easy sell.

Eldariel

2012-10-18, 03:23 PM

I agree with you on all points there, except for one. If they are both doing control, then they won't really be freeing up any other spell casters to help them. The party consists of 4 martial classes, a Druid and a Fighter. Okay, the Ranger is a caster (kind of), but other than that, you have 3 characters who need the Wizard and Druid to be on their game with buffs and control and holding off a caster.

I just think that a specialization in conjuration would be a bad choice. Especially with other options like Transmutation (Enhancement), Divination (Foresight), or Illusion (Shadow), Abjuration (Counterspell) also on the table. I don't think much is lost by not specializing in conjuration, but that more could be gained.

It also depends on how many combats are expected during the day.

The biggest thing you need from spellcasters is control anyways. Druid can only do certain types; it's up to Wizard to fill in. Besides, he still has access to Transmutation and Abjuration as appropriate. Note that Druids don't really get Teleportation, which also falls under Conjuration and is so absolutely huge that dedicating a specialist slot per level to it would be more than worth it (and the specialist abilities of Conjuration of course fuel this in a superb manner).

Really, Druid Conjuration and Wizard Conjuration have precious few overlaps; they complement each other nicely. Divination is something you prepare a lot of in certain occasions but not something you want a level a day (there's a few amazing divinations but not enough to ensure that the slot is optimally used for each level each day), Transmutation is cool but Conjuration does more of what the party needs especially with Polymorph eating a huge (deserved) nerf in Pathfinder, and from Abjuration you mostly want Magic Circle and Dispels, alongside Mind Blank and some Energy Resistance at varying points, which again isn't really worth specializing in.

Really, the three best schools to specialize in spell-wise are Conjuration, Transmutation, Illusion and oddly enough Evocation as a distant 4th, and out of those Conjuration really fills the sorely lacking "magic muscle"-slot in the party as the most powerful active school Wizard has available.

If the party was Wizard/Druid/Cleric I'd perhaps consider some auxillary specialization or specialization just for special abilities but in a party with no Wizard whatsoever, Conjurer gives all the most quintessential abilities aside from Dispel Magic, Detect Magic, Fly and Contact Other Plane. Ability to target any save, teleportation (both in the 1st (Shifting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/conjuration/teleportation)) and the 8th level special abilities & strategic scale spells) & planar travel.

And there's the actual act of creating & calling stuff of course but that's less of an everyday need and more of a commodity.

What is a Golarion trait? I can't find this trait in PCGen at all. I can find it on http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/traits-db, but I have no idea where it's from or whether I can use it. Do you know from which book it is?

Pathfinder Society stuff from the Pathfinder Society sources. I have a PF Conjurer who's a part of the Pathfinder Society living campaign and he has it. I recall it's an Osirion Trait but it does pretty much what you'd expect; you scour dusty relics and stuff so you've learned Perception and...Knowledge: History?

EDIT: Post on the official forums (http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2m0e?Tomb-Raider-Trait-Question) which pretty much specifies what it does.

EDIT#2: Druid can use Wands of Cure Light Wounds which should solve all your healing needs forever. Have party invest in a handful and you'll be golden. And yeah, you just leave summoning to a lesser role for now (it's a lot of work) and focus on controlling the battlefield and making your team win.

Squirrel_Dude

2012-10-18, 05:37 PM

Eh, you're probably right. Conjuration's 3rd through 5th levels of spells are so damn incredible that it's worth stepping on some toes to have plenty of access to it. I'm probably just a little tired of conjurers.

Just look at this list!
Level 3
Stinking Cloud
Sleet Storm/Ash Storm
Spiked Pit
Ice Spears

Level 4
Black Tentacles
Dimension Door
Acid Pit
Touch of Slime
Greater Infernal Healing

Level 5
Cloudkill
Wall of Stone
Teleport
Hungry Pit

And of course there are also the summon monsters, phantom steeds, magical houses, and acid sprays for all other needs. So yeah. . .

Maybe a conjurer wouldn't be such a terrible idea after all.

Eldariel

2012-10-18, 06:48 PM

mcv

2012-10-19, 01:10 AM

Level 4
...
Greater Infernal Healing

Wait, what's this? Is there an arcane healing spell for wizards? What book is it from? It doesn't seem to be in Paizo's own online PRD.

Crustypeanut

2012-10-19, 04:22 AM

Its from a campaign book I believe.. it grants Fast healing for a short duration.. might be good for a devil worshiper like yourself.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-list-filters/sorcerer-wizard-spell-list-filter

This has all of the spells.. learn it, love it. Theres a 1st level version that grants Fast Healing 1, while the Greater version grants Fast healing 4. Both take 1 full round to cast and last for one minute. The normal version makes the target detect as an evil creature, while the Greater version makes them detect as an evil cleric. Suffice to say, I'd recommend against using it near a paladin. He might not take kindly to you using [evil] healing spells.

mcv

2012-10-19, 04:59 AM

Its from a campaign book I believe.. it grants Fast healing for a short duration.. might be good for a devil worshiper like yourself.
But that sounds like it's specific for that campaign, and not ours. The GM has Core, APG and UM, so I think I should just stick to material from those books.

This has all of the spells.. learn it, love it. Theres a 1st level version that grants Fast Healing 1, while the Greater version grants Fast healing 4. Both take 1 full round to cast and last for one minute. The normal version makes the target detect as an evil creature, while the Greater version makes them detect as an evil cleric. Suffice to say, I'd recommend against using it near a paladin. He might not take kindly to you using [evil] healing spells.
It's be perfectly creepy for my wizard, and we could really use some magical healing, but I don't think I can use it.

Crustypeanut

2012-10-19, 06:41 AM

Always ask, though. Its still technically in the same campaign world, so he may allow it.

If not, maybe you can talk him into letting you research it.

Larpus

2012-10-19, 01:02 PM

Eldariel

2012-10-19, 01:17 PM

Especially considering that your only other magical healing source is the Druid (if there were a Cleric or Paladin, a case could be made for too much healing), it fits your theme really darn well and, IMHO, is a quite useful and powerful spell without being overpowered.

Eh, you don't really need anything but somebody to use Wand of Cure Light Wounds to carry most of the healing needs; rest comes down to execution.

mcv

2012-10-19, 03:24 PM

We are definitely going to get a wand of CLW, but if anything happens to the Druid, I think he's the only one who can use it.

Infernal Healing would indeed be a really nice and suitably creepy healing spell for me. I'm sure that a few players will object to being healed by it. I don't have an answer from the GM yet, but in general he has an "I've got to own the book"-policy, so I don't think he'll allow it.

Unless I buy the book for him, perhaps. Hm...

mcv

2012-10-21, 12:37 PM

Eldariel

2012-10-21, 02:01 PM

The GM's verdict on Infernal Healing is: maybe. He's considering creating a new campaign trait that allows you to take secret Asmodean spells. I'm fine with that, as the campaign trait I'm considering is already more colour than useful. (It's Diabolist Raised, which gives me a +1 save against mind-affecting attacks from devils (kinda useful), and a +1 on social skills against local nobility (completely irrelevant to my character)).

He's having some doubts about Infernal Healing because it heals slightly more than Cure Light Wounds.

On a completely unrelated note, I've been wondering just how good Silent Image really is. I used to think it was just for making a single create that wasn't believable without Ghost Sound, but I noticed it can cover quite a lot of space. You could put a Wall of Ice or Wall of Stone there, and what monster would possibly decide to check whether that's actually a real wall? And even disbelieving it would require a will save per monster, so it still splits them up. It could be the most flexible battlefield control spell ever.

Is that a good assessment? Or am I missing some vital detail?

Silent Image is wonderful. Create an Image of darkness and communicate to your team it's an illusion (agreed hand signal, word in some rare language you share, just plain agreement beforehand that you conjure illusionary darkness rather than real darkness). Boom, Will-save vs. one-sided darkness!

It's completely sufficient for creating Images of objects too. Say that precious vase you're trying to steal? Create something to cover the original, then an image of said vase flying to location X away from you near another exit; guards will think it's being telekinetically stolen and you're free to pick up the original. Create an image of some sign a hostile party has been looking for, create an image of a tree or whatever to hide behind or cover something. You can also create an Image of a Gate (used for summoning); how many know what that's supposed to sound like anyways?

This is why I keep saying Illusion's power is directly proportional to your creativity; Images are some of the most open-ended spells with an immense number of options and power if used right.

mcv

2012-10-21, 02:11 PM

Cool. Though with your vase example, it can't make the original vase invisible, can it? It can only hide it, I assume.

And what happens if you interact with it and fail the save? Does it work completely as if it's real? Can you climb an illusory ladder or rope? And can you choose to fail that save? Can I create a wall of stone with a tower and ramparts and put my party members on top of them?

How responsive is it? Can I create people who die when shot? Do I need to pay attention to them getting shot for it to happen?

Isn't this spell a bit overpowered in the hands of even just a moderately creative player?

Eldariel

2012-10-21, 02:58 PM

Cool. Though with your vase example, it can't make the original vase invisible, can it? It can only hide it, I assume.

No, you have to make the scenario thus that vision is temporarily lost beforehand so you can make the "switch". Fog, Mist, Darkness, Invisibility, you have options.

And what happens if you interact with it and fail the save? Does it work completely as if it's real? Can you climb an illusory ladder or rope? And can you choose to fail that save? Can I create a wall of stone with a tower and ramparts and put my party members on top of them?

No, only Shadow-spells are like that. If you fail the Will-save, you simply think they're real. Note that it's not enough to be pointed out it's real to be able to disbelieve them (they're magic, after all; not just simple figments but magical ones); that confers +4 bonus on the saving throw however. If faced with proof however (such as somebody putting a hand through what you think is a wall and going "See? No wall."), you need no saving throw. But e.g. arrows flying through a wall doesn't necessarily mean you disbelieve the wall; after all, phasing arrows exist for instance. This part is quite DM-dependent. Here are the specific definitions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#figment).

Basically, if somebody fails to disbelieve illusionary wall, they believe there's a wall there and running into it would act as if there was a wall there but somebody could still pull them through it (though they'd probably resist being pulled through a wall) or prove it real.

How responsive is it? Can I create people who die when shot? Do I need to pay attention to them getting shot for it to happen?

You need to maintain Concentration on Silent Image. It lasts for as long as you Concentrate, which normally costs you a Standard Action per round (there are ways to mitigate this for short durations of course, but I don't remember everything related in PF). You can make your Illusion do stuff as long as you keep Concentrating on it. And well...make them act as if they seem they're dying. Persistent Image that exists without Concentration is a much higher level spell. Also remember, Silent Image is only an image; it's easy to tell a human who makes no sound when shot is probably not real.

Isn't this spell a bit overpowered in the hands of even just a moderately creative player?

Compared to other options? Color Spray stuns a bunch of enemies, Sleep sleeps a bunch, Grease heavily restricts opponents' options in an area OR makes somebody near-impossible to grapple OR makes somebody drop a weapon (or whatever else you can come up with), True Strike lets you autohit your next ray or whatever, etc. Spells are pretty good.

I don't know if Silent Image is necessarily "overpowered"; it scales well by level to be sure and it's strong but it doesn't disable enemies easily or achieve things of that nature so it's got its role but it's not the be-all end-all of 1st level spells. It's an insanely flexible utility spell.

mcv

2012-10-21, 03:20 PM

You need to maintain Concentration on Silent Image. It lasts for as long as you Concentrate, which normally costs you a Standard Action per round (there are ways to mitigate this for short durations of course, but I don't remember everything related in PF). You can make your Illusion do stuff as long as you keep Concentrating on it. And well...make them act as if they seem they're dying. Persistent Image that exists without Concentration is a much higher level spell. Also remember, Silent Image is only an image; it's easy to tell a human who makes no sound when shot is probably not real.
Ghost Sound says it can enhance a Silent Image, but how do you cast Ghost Sound when you need to concentrate on Silent Image? Ghost Sound also sounds like you can't change anything about it once it's cast, so it may not be flexible enough to have it sound like people dying.

Compared to other options? Color Spray stuns a bunch of enemies, Sleep sleeps a bunch, Grease heavily restricts opponents' options in an area OR makes somebody near-impossible to grapple OR makes somebody drop a weapon (or whatever else you can come up with), True Strike lets you autohit your next ray or whatever, etc. Spells are pretty good.
Clearly the best 1st level spells are not the ones that do damage.

Eldariel

2012-10-21, 03:47 PM

Ghost Sound says it can enhance a Silent Image, but how do you cast Ghost Sound when you need to concentrate on Silent Image? Ghost Sound also sounds like you can't change anything about it once it's cast, so it may not be flexible enough to have it sound like people dying.

Quicken, cast beforehand or something.

Clearly the best 1st level spells are not the ones that do damage.

Same goes for every level.

Larpus

2012-10-22, 10:31 AM

Eh, you don't really need anything but somebody to use Wand of Cure Light Wounds to carry most of the healing needs; rest comes down to execution.
Ah yes, forgot this game is higher level.

Got so used to start at level 1 and be in perpetual poverty that I actually think that...

On a related note, wouldn't a wand of Infernal Healing be about as good as CLW (perhaps even better depending on how much time you got)?

CLW is 1d8+1, 5-6 average, 9 tops; while the IH is always 10, it just takes longer, but sounds like a better deal for before bedtime healing.

Eldariel

2012-10-22, 10:33 AM

Ah yes, forgot this game is higher level.

Got so used to start at level 1 and be in perpetual poverty that I actually think that...

On a related note, wouldn't a wand of Infernal Healing be about as good as CLW (perhaps even better depending on how much time you got)?

CLW is 1d8+1, 5-6 average, 9 tops; while the IH is always 10, it just takes longer, but sounds like a better deal for before bedtime healing.

Of course, the same as Lesser Vigor, it's much better majority of the time. Infernal Healing has the considerations of making you register as evil, being icky and not necessarily being allowed tho.

Larpus

2012-10-22, 10:41 AM

Of course, the same as Lesser Vigor, it's much better majority of the time. Infernal Healing has the considerations of making you register as evil, being icky and not necessarily being allowed tho.
True, it would need to be a group who is already aok with doing minor evils for a good cause (which should be any group willing to walk around with a devil summoner).

mcv

2012-10-22, 10:42 AM

On a related note, wouldn't a wand of Infernal Healing be about as good as CLW (perhaps even better depending on how much time you got)?

CLW is 1d8+1, 5-6 average, 9 tops; while the IH is always 10, it just takes longer, but sounds like a better deal for before bedtime healing.

It's absolutely better, as long as you don't mind being infused with evil magic. It may have no official side effects, but I'm absolutely certain that some players will object to being healed this way.

The main reason why I want this spell, is shock value. To emphasize the evil background my character comes from. I'd want it even if it was worse than CLW (which heals 6-13, 9.5 average, at level 5).

True, it would need to be a group who is already aok with doing minor evils for a good cause (which should be any group willing to walk around with a devil summoner).
A few in the group might be okay with minor evils, but others won't. I definitely intend to play up the discomfort at the start, but I'm also confident I can convince them we have the same goals and should therefore work together. Eventually my devil summoner may adapt a bit if they really demand it.

Karoht

2012-10-22, 12:27 PM

Squirrel_Dude

2012-10-22, 12:44 PM

It's absolutely better, as long as you don't mind being infused with evil magic. It may have no official side effects, but I'm absolutely certain that some players will object to being healed this way.

The main reason why I want this spell, is shock value. To emphasize the evil background my character comes from. I'd want it even if it was worse than CLW (which heals 6-13, 9.5 average, at level 5).

A few in the group might be okay with minor evils, but others won't. I definitely intend to play up the discomfort at the start, but I'm also confident I can convince them we have the same goals and should therefore work together. Eventually my devil summoner may adapt a bit if they really demand it.Some other flavor spells to look at might be.

Summon Infernal Host: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-infernal-host) Summon Gaav (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/devil/host-lesser-gaav) or Magaav (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/devil/host-greater-magaav) devils.

And the line of spells that are like summon monster but they limit you to summoning daemons (Summon Cacaodaemon/Ceustodaemon/Derghodaemon/Meladaemon/Thanadaemon). They're not great spells in regards to optimization, but they would be flavor spells to try and find later or try and create.

mcv

2012-10-22, 03:21 PM

Some other flavor spells to look at might be.

Summon Infernal Host: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-infernal-host) Summon Gaav (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/devil/host-lesser-gaav) or Magaav (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/devil/host-greater-magaav) devils.
Also from the wrong book, I fear. And with monsters also from the wrong book, I doubt the GM will allow it. And why would anyone ever summon a Gaav? Isn't a Magaav better in every way?

To me, the main problem is that it's level 5, and I'm starting at level 4, so I can't cast it yet. That reduces the shock value I'm looking for. I think I'll just use Summon Monster II to summon a Lemure. Wouldn't that basically have the same effect? Not every level of Summon Monster has a good devil, though.

Eldariel

2012-10-22, 03:26 PM

This list has good options (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hXTPH3JxSDD6n0a0dS8eywpQ3we09d_ToBWaL1yphBk/edit?pli=1) for summoning; really, there's little reason to use anything but Summon Monster. If a level doesn't have a good devil, summon multiple lower level devils (and feel free to Empower or Maximize with Rods if you happen to have one lying around).

Babaus are awesome, btw; CL 7 Dispel Magic at will to disable all the magic items and spells your opponents are using. Only 2 below your character level and it can take a relevant action every turn.

I suggest allowing devils and demons for yourself, at least. After all, summons are obedient so it really doesn't matter and certainly it feels like infernal summoning either way.

And most levels have solid demon-or-devil options.

mcv

2012-10-22, 04:10 PM

@Conjuration and Illusion
They beefed up Spell Resistance a bit more in Pathfinder. As such, the fact that Conjuration spells bipass Spell Resistance is very valuable.
Illusion school is also pretty beefy for the same reason. It's also an incredibly flexible spell school. Don't have a Wall of Stone memorized to cover a doorway with? Illusion one into place over the door. The Shadow Line of Spells also gives you some excellent flexibility, specifically the kind that Wizards sometimes need but often do not. Illusions allow you to play the shell game. The enemies never have to see you, the party might never see the real you either. The enemies might get confused between the very real Summons trying to eat their faces, and the Illusionary Wall of Stone cutting off their escape. It's even funnier when they think the Summoned things are not real.
Hint-Summon things with True Seeing, use Illusions to support them, watch the chaos ensue.
One thing I've wondered about an illusionary wall of stone: shouldn't it block sound? Wouldn't it be noticeable that it doesn't do that? Maybe that could allow a will save too. I just wondered if a wall of iron bars wouldn't be better; it bloks movement, but nothing else. Nothing weird for them to notice about it, and we can shoot and target spells through it. The only thing that could go wrong is that someone decides to grab the iron bars and pull weird faces at us instead of walking around it.

Anyway, I'm still somewhat fuzzy on some aspects of illusions. Does Silent Image always require concentration, or only when parts of it move? And Ghost Sound also sounds inflexible about changes in the sound it produces, not to mention that I need Quicken to cast them simultaneously. So it's not really all that great a combo. Not yet, at least.

Anticipate Peril is the Pathfinder equivilent of Nerveskitter, it's a first level spell that boosts your Initiative, and for the cost it is very efficent to have a wand of and use it every encounter.
Yeah, but you have to see the encounter coming, don't you? Once the GM says roll initiative, it's too late.

This list has good options (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hXTPH3JxSDD6n0a0dS8eywpQ3we09d_ToBWaL1yphBk/edit?pli=1) for summoning; really, there's little reason to use anything but Summon Monster.
Nice list! Thanks.

I suggest allowing devils and demons for yourself, at least. After all, summons are obedient so it really doesn't matter and certainly it feels like infernal summoning either way.
I probably will. They probably don't really know the difference, and my character is kinda branching out from the pure-devil stuff. Starting with demons makes sense, right?

And most levels have solid demon-or-devil options.
And most or all animals have to be either Celestial or Fiendish. It's obvious what my choice is going to be, at first at least.

Squirrel_Dude

2012-10-22, 07:20 PM

Summon Infernal Host lets you summon either 1d4+1 Gaavs or 1Magaav. I should have clarified.

mcv

2012-10-23, 12:54 AM

Summon Infernal Host lets you summon either 1d4+1 Gaavs or 1Magaav. I should have clarified.

The spell should have clarified. I know notice that it does specify this, but only on the effect line, and not in the description. So I didn't read it right (but it could have been clearer).

Karoht

2012-10-23, 09:35 AM

One thing I've wondered about an illusionary wall of stone: shouldn't it block sound? Wouldn't it be noticeable that it doesn't do that? Maybe that could allow a will save too. I just wondered if a wall of iron bars wouldn't be better; it bloks movement, but nothing else.See, that is the kind of thinking needed to play an Illusionist well.

So it's not really all that great a combo.No, but later illusions give you much more options.

Yeah, but you have to see the encounter coming, don't you? Once the GM says roll initiative, it's too late.Hence why having a high enough perception to see the potential threat, and high enough knowledges to interpret the threat, are very important. It's also why Divination is as useful as it is.
The Divination School class features for Wizard include the ability to act during surprise rounds. Surprise rounds are supposed to take place before initiative is rolled, if I remember correctly (my DM appears to rule it that way), so in theory Anticipate Peril (or more game breaking stuff like Celerity and Time Stop) can be cast at that time. Such a feature is often underestimated.