Thought experiment: what would 3.5 look like if ...

[Zdrak]

What would 3.5 D&D look like if bonuses didn't stack? What if the stacking rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking) were rewritten to say simply 'bonuses don't stack ever, only the highest bonus applies' ?

What would the game look like?

[[Maybe some very special bonuses would stack. Maybe a certain rare magical ring can give you +1 to saves which stacks with any other bonus. But those are an exception specifically spelled out - never the rule]]

[Urpriest]

ACs would plummet, so everyone would be easy to hit and thus everyone would power attack for full, which since strength would no longer add to attack rolls if BAB was higher would mean that everyone would dump strength to 13, higher if they want to protect from penalties.

[Hirax]

Miss chances would become even more superior to AC than they already are. Swiftblades everywhere would rejoice, as their 50% miss chance is EX and applies to melee and ranged attacks, and targeted spells.

[Endarire]

Casters rule, non-casters drool.

And more people would have low-level defenses (low saves, AC, and maybe HP depending on how you ruled that) regardless of level, while offensive options would scale up around normal. So it's even more rocket taggy!

[Kelb_Panthera]

This isn't much of an experiment. This rule change would make mundanes factually unplayable at higher levels rather than the usual colloquialy unplayable.

It's just a bad, bad idea.

[TuggyNE]

It would be a lot harder to explain to a new player just why this rule existed (especially in light of so many spells, items, powers, effects, feats*, and class features that would become useless, or nearly so, after this change).

For example, a troll can wear armor, but it doesn't make any difference to their AC until it gets to +6 armor bonus or above — similarly, that same troll would have the same AC with Dex anywhere between 0 and 21, and only at 22 Dex would it increase (by a full +1). Amusingly, size no longer matters in most cases to AC or to-hit — or Hide, or grappling.

Magic weapons and armor would be useless, or nearly so, depending on your precise interpretation of what counts as a bonus (how about flaming weapons?).

Casters would become rather less party-friendly, as most of their buffs become pointless. (Most of those that remain are immunities or similar.)

Base attack/save bonuses, as noted earlier, would tend to overpower any buffs, so strength, dexterity, wisdom, and constitution would all lose importance. Yes, that means a cleric and a rogue of the same level would almost always have exactly the same total attack bonus with whatever weapons they were proficient with — except for the first few levels, when attack bonus would be static based on whatever you started with. Similarly, skill ranks are considered bonuses, so they get the same treatment.

In short, it would reduce roughly 90% of the system to niche uses, only consulted in odd corner cases and with the rules generally forgotten in-between. Certain op tricks would become vastly more powerful as a result (greater consumptive field, anyone?), and nearly all lower-op would be nullified.

Not to put too fine a point on it, it would look like trash.


*At last Dodge would be universally recognized as a useless trap feat. Just like Weapon Focus. And Skill Focus.

[Kumori]

Skills would suck. Ranks would be the only thing that matters if you want a decent bonus.

[Flickerdart]

Massively lower saves across the board + same DCs as always for SoDs = casters win forever again. Massively lower melee damage + same damage for blasting spells = even the crappy casters still win forever.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Massively lower saves across the board + same DCs as always for SoDs = casters win forever again. Massively lower melee damage + same damage for blasting spells = even the crappy casters still win forever.

Actually... not the same DC's for SoD's. Most of how you stack DC's come from stat-stacking, which you can't do anymore. DC's would actually plummet severely.

[Flickerdart]

You don't need to stack DCs for things to be effective, though. The ol' 10+spell level+stat gives you DCs around 27 even without stacking boosts to stats, which will succeed 95% of the time against a poor save.

[TuggyNE]

You don't need to stack DCs for things to be effective, though. The ol' 10+spell level+stat gives you DCs around 27 even without stacking boosts to stats, which will succeed 95% of the time against a poor save.

And, amusingly, the language around DCs does not appear to refer to bonuses, except casting stat modifiers. So you only have one "bonus" to add, and it therefore works normally.

... Yeah, this would not work well.

[blazinghand]

Charging would matter a lot less, also, since unless you had less than 2 BAB the +2 from charging wouldn't matter. Combat Expertise would almost never be worth it. Improved Trip wouldn't be useful for anyone with 18 strength... but you're probably dumping strength down to 13 anyways, so actually it might be good anyways. Man, this would be really really rough.

[ericgrau]

You'd have to rebalance all the numbers to compensate or as pointed out here they'd all get screwy and unbalanced. For example AC might be priced at 300 x bonus x bonus (max ~+25). Less if you pay separately for touch AC and non touch AC and they don't stack with eachother. Even then a lot of buffs would become useless unless you make them so powerful that instead they render some magic item useless, which is worse.

[Telok]

First you want to nail down what is a bonus and what is your base number.

Is your BAB a base that you add the better of Str bonus or magic bonus to? Or is BAB a bonus, making strength only apply to damage? Are the saving throw numbers from you class a base to which you add stats or racial/magical bonuses? Or are they the bonus to your die roll? Are spell DCs computed by base 10 plus a bonus from the higher of spell level or attribute bonus? Or is 10 + spell level + attribute the base? Maybe 10 + spell level is the base and the attribute is the bonus?

If BASE is BAB, class save numbers, skill ranks, and DC 10, the idea may be worth exploring. if BASE is 0 except for spell DCs at 10 + level + stat then it's caster-only rocket tag starting at level 3.

[Flickerdart]

BAB is, by definition, a bonus. Both AC and DCs are a target numbers, not bonuses to a roll.

[blazinghand]

BAB is, by definition, a bonus. Both AC and DCs are a target numbers, not bonuses to a roll.

yes, given that BAB stands for "base attack bonus" it will basically dominate any attack rolls.

However, AC consists of a flat number (10) that is not a bonus, plus a number of bonuses you get from natural armor, armor, shield, etc. So the AC of a small rogue with studded leather, a small shield, and +2 dexterity would be 14 because +4 (Armor) is the highest bonus.

[ericgrau]

You'd have to double BAB to keep up with normal BAB + str + abilities + buffs. Would still be a bit odd because strength would only be left as a bonus to damage... which wouldn't stack with weapon bonuses.

Either that or let both BAB and AC be low, but a lot of monsters get all their AC from natural armor - no stacking involved - so then you'd have to fix the monsters instead.

[TuggyNE]

yes, given that BAB stands for "base attack bonus" it will basically dominate any attack rolls.

Note as well that much the same thing happens with save progressions, because they are specifically referred to as base save bonuses.

[Zdrak]

For the purpose of better defining the thought experiment, let's say that:

For attack rolls, baseline is d20+BAB*
For saves, baseline is d20+base save bonus from class levels
For skills, baseline is d20+ranks
For Armor Class, baseline is 10
For save DCs, baseline is 10+spell level

Anything beyond that baseline is defined to be a modifier; modifiers don't stack, except possibly specific cases that will be spelled out.

* yes, I do realize it's a bit hypocritical, since the word "bonus" is actually included in "base attack bonus", but hey, it's my thought experiment.

[Hirax]

For the purpose of better defining the thought experiment, let's say that:

For attack rolls, baseline is d20+BAB*
For saves, baseline is d20+base save bonus from class levels
For skills, baseline is d20+ranks
For Armor Class, baseline is 10
For save DCs, baseline is 10+spell level

Anything beyond that baseline is defined to be a modifier; modifiers don't stack, except possibly specific cases that will be spelled out.

* yes, I do realize it's a bit hypocritical, since the word "bonus" is actually included in "base attack bonus", but hey, it's my thought experiment.

Casting still rockets further ahead. Users of consumptive field, algid enhancement, and persistent spell are rejoicing.

[blazinghand]

For Armor Class, baseline is 10

You still run into the problem that AC will be super low relative to attack bonus. By the time you're level 10 there's really no way to avoid attacks at all. Even in full plate if you're fighting, say, a CR 10 11-headed Hydra, it'll be making 11 attacks at +11 and there's nothing you can do to get your AC higher than 18.

All these changes seem to do is make casters... even stronger.

[NichG]

You don't need to stack DCs for things to be effective, though. The ol' 10+spell level+stat gives you DCs around 27 even without stacking boosts to stats, which will succeed 95% of the time against a poor save.

How the heck are you getting 27? Or rather, what level are we talking about here?

[tyckspoon]

How the heck are you getting 27? Or rather, what level are we talking about here?

10 base + 9 spell level + Int 24 (18 base and a +6 Int item) = DC 26. 27 requires only 2 more points of Int, such as by being a +Int race or by putting a couple of your levelup points into boosting Intelligence.

[Zdrak]

10 base + 9 spell level + Int 24 (18 base and a +6 Int item) = DC 26. 27 requires only 2 more points of Int, such as by being a +Int race or by putting a couple of your levelup points into boosting Intelligence.You didn't really get into the spirit of the concept, did you?

[TuggyNE]

You still run into the problem that AC will be super low relative to attack bonus. By the time you're level 10 there's really no way to avoid attacks at all. Even in full plate if you're fighting, say, a CR 10 11-headed Hydra, it'll be making 11 attacks at +11 and there's nothing you can do to get your AC higher than 18.

It's worse than that. Because only the largest modifier is counted, the hydra loses its size penalties to AC and to-hit, and hits 11 attacks at +17 (rather than +16) and AC of 22 (not 21).

More generally, monsters tend to have one or a few large bonuses (to nearly all relevant stats) that PCs match by stacking smaller bonuses; therefore, an inability to stack smaller bonuses means PCs lose. Monster saves and ability DCs don't change much from this, but PC DCs drop slightly, and their saves go down a lot; therefore, casters become glass cannons playing rocket tag at even low and mid levels, and everyone else just goes home in a casket.

You might get a bit of a reprieve by picking some unusual races; for example, pixies would probably see a great deal of use, with their enormous racial modifiers to dex (and nearly everything else) and their valuable DR, while most smaller racial bonuses (or penalties) are swallowed up by even the lowest-grade equipment.

[Snowbluff]

ACs would plummet, so everyone would be easy to hit and thus everyone would power attack for full, which since strength would no longer add to attack rolls if BAB was higher would mean that everyone would dump strength to 13, higher if they want to protect from penalties.

No one would hit anything. Everyone would run around in Full Plate, with an 18 AC, and stack it up to +5 Fullplate (Enhancement to Armor AC right?).

[tyckspoon]

You didn't really get into the spirit of the concept, did you?

Did I suggest anything that is a 'bonus'? Nope. Racial modifiers and level-up increases change your base stat. The only stacking-relevant bonus in there is a standard +Intelligence magic item, and that's not attempting to stack with anything else. Unless you want to define 'bonus' so strictly that your stats can *never* be changed in any way.

[Novawurmson]

No one would hit anything. Everyone would run around in Full Plate, with an 18 AC, and stack it up to +5 Fullplate (Enhancement to Armor AC right?).

+5 fullplate gives a +13 to AC, for an AC of 23. Full BAB classes still will hit fairly frequently; casters laugh and hit touch AC of 10.

[silverwolfer]

less buffing time

[Snowbluff]

+5 fullplate gives a +13 to AC, for an AC of 23. Full BAB classes still will hit fairly frequently; casters laugh and hit touch AC of 10.

They'll hit frequently around level 10, then it starts to smooth out.

If bonus don't stack to AC, do they stack to flat-footed and touch separately? Casters probably won't have more than a +3 to hit for much of their careers, so a Ring of Protection would really hurt them.

[Zdrak]

Unless you want to define 'bonus' so strictly that your stats can *never* be changed in any way.Now you're getting into the spirit. Yes. That's what I want. For this thought experiment.

Addendum to my previous post:


For the purpose of better defining the thought experiment, let's say that:

For attack rolls, baseline is d20+BAB*
For saves, baseline is d20+base save bonus from class levels
For skills, baseline is d20+ranks
For Armor Class, baseline is 10
For save DCs, baseline is 10+spell level
For stats, baseline is whatever was rolled or point-bought

Anything beyond that baseline is defined to be a modifier; modifiers don't stack, except possibly specific cases that will be spelled out.

[blazinghand]

They'll hit frequently around level 10, then it starts to smooth out.

If bonus don't stack to AC, do they stack to flat-footed and touch separately? Casters probably won't have more than a +3 to hit for much of their careers, so a Ring of Protection would really hurt them.

Why wouldn't casters have more than +3 to hit? By level 10 you're at a comfortable +5, which against a normal Touch AC would be enough to hit, especially without things like size and deflection counting unless they were higher than the dexterity.

[Zdrak]

I like it how both "AC is useless, everyone will hit all the time" and "no one will hit anything" are suggested.

[blazinghand]

I like it how both "AC is useless, everyone will hit all the time" and "no one will hit anything" are suggested.

you have oversimplified the statements.

"PC AC is useless, every monster will hit all the time"

"No one will hit anything except for monsters and PCs using touch attacks"

[Snowbluff]

Why wouldn't casters have more than +3 to hit? By level 10 you're at a comfortable +5, which against a normal Touch AC would be enough to hit, especially without things like size and deflection counting unless they were higher than the dexterity.

I said MOST of their Careers, assuming 16 Dex. +5 sounds about right, but for later levels mostly. Most people PrC into a lot of things, etc. But a +5 Ring of Deflection cancels it, so you have 50% chance to hit.

Truestrike should help, though.

[blazinghand]

I said MOST of their Careers, assuming 16 Dex. +5 sounds about right, but for later levels mostly. Most people PrC into a lot of things, etc. But a +5 Ring of Deflection cancels it, so you have 50% chance to hit.

Truestrike should help, though.

Why most of their careers? Are we assuming they stop playing at level 10? Casters get 1/2 BAB, so even with a dex of +3 by level 8 their dexterity shoudl be irrelevant...

[NichG]

10 base + 9 spell level + Int 24 (18 base and a +6 Int item) = DC 26. 27 requires only 2 more points of Int, such as by being a +Int race or by putting a couple of your levelup points into boosting Intelligence.

Okay, so we are talking Lv20-ish here, which is important to establish since the relative numbers change things there. For instance, a character with a good save who PrCs into two classes that also have that as their good save will roughly have a +21 in that saving throw under this system (2(base)+2(Prc 1)+2(Prc 2)+10+5(resistance)). Higher if the save happens to be powered by their primary ability score (e.g. Will saves for clerics, Reflex saves for rogues). So they're going to be able to hit that save 75% of the time. Swordsages of course will be able to hit that DC most of the time using a Concentration check, just based on skill ranks alone.

It does mean that layered defenses become more important. You don't want a 25% chance per round to die from an SoD, so you'll want some SR on top of that, some miss chance, abilities that let you reroll, etc (or really, you'll want to be immune to things that oneshot you, just like moderate-op high level D&D normally plays).

[Flickerdart]

Targetting a strong save has never been the way to win an encounter, and someone stacking a strong save with PrCs is going to have abysmally weak saves for the other two.

[Terumitsu]

Multiclassing could likely become very rare as it could be argued that the BAB and saves granted by them are separate bonuses and thus both of those would wind up rather weaker than a straight classed PC.

[Snowbluff]

Why most of their careers? Are we assuming they stop playing at level 10? Casters get 1/2 BAB, so even with a dex of +3 by level 8 their dexterity shoudl be irrelevant...

It depends on how they dip. "A lot of their careers" might be a better statement.

Isn't there an armor enhancement that lets you add your Armor Bonus to your touch AC?

[blazinghand]

It depends on how they dip.

I'm talking about a full caster here, not some gish or something. Someone who's just straight up Wizard 10 will have +5 to hit, minimum, thanks to his +5 BAB. obviously if he multiclasses into some other classes with non-full BAB and has odd numbers of levels he'll have lower BAB, but the fact of the matter is, it's trivially easy to make a Wizard 10 who has +5 to hit on his ray attacks.

[Kazyan]

Some predictions on melee classes:

Tome of Battle classes become the subject of melee optimizers' dirty fanfictions for how useful it is. I mean, even more than usual. Desert Wind's blasting maneuvers become more attractive, and the <fire adjective> Blade line becomes a solid backup option for when you can't get decent pluses anywhere else. Diamond Mind's save-replacers remain at about the same usefulness, but are instantly defenestrated when Diamond Defense becomes available--you're not getting a 15+ bonus to saves anywhere else. I guess Stone Dragon's here-have-some-ability-damage maneuvers become more useful if everyone's saves and ability scores are a lot lower. Same with FIVE SHADOW CREEPING ICE ENERVATION STRIKE. (There's no way to type the maneuver's name and take it seriously, so I won't try.) Tornado Throw and a supreme move speed become the only way to trip things.

The barbarian's Rage sounds like it would become useless, but +Str from other sources doesn't keep up with the improvements by level. Frenzied Bezerker's bonus and PA improvement is a tempting replacement.

Straight-classed fighters collapse under the weight of all the Fighter Bonus Feats that become even more useless due to how they're just bonuses. Weapon Focus, in particular, now reads "Benefit: This feat allows you to meet certain qualifications, but has no other functions." Every fighter is instead a Sneak Attack fighter from UA.

Their PA will suddenly suck because PAing for full means that you'll have a to-hit of, like, +4 for strength? And Monster ACs are gonna be, like, 15 because of natural armor? Shock Trooper is the only way to make PAing viable, then, at which point, it's golden.

Rangers break, because their defining ability is eclipsed by other bonuses, unless they dump Str. They probably have more reason for other stats, though. Yum yum casting.

SA gives you fistfuls of D6, except sources of SA will no longer stack, so you have to stay in single-classed Rogue or SA Fighter. Or Ninja, which sucks less now, compared to other melee classes. But you run into things being immune to SA, which shuts you down.

Scouts are nerfed in that their Skirmish's AC bonus stops doing anything.

Monks...stop sucking? Okay, not really, but 1) inability to wear armor doesn't mean anything when their AC bonus class feature actually does the job of replacing a big suit of metal, 2) good saves are kind of a big deal when you can't stack pluses, and 3) their unarmed damage increase becomes somewhat relevant. Dex becomes dumpable in favor of Str.

Paladins...I haven't given a lot of thought to that class before now, so I can't tell you. But Smite doesn't really work anymore.

Bards cannot Inspire anything that anyone will notice anymore, except Greatness and Awe. Spells still work, though, which was the best thing about them anyway. They can't diplomance, but are effective party faces in the wake of everyone dropping down in power.

Swashbucklers become less useful than Samurai, which are not terribly pleased either, what with an inability to Takahashi no Onisan.

Marshals are now inarguably the worst PC class in the game. All they do is mediocre bonuses, so their class basically has no features. Even the Truenamers are better off, and they took it right in the core mechanic!

Incarnates and Factotums are in similar scenarios. They are now the only adventurers ever who can whip out obscure skills, though the Factotum can do well with even the usual skills, and the Incarnate is a bit out of luck. Factotums can be a combat clas because of Iaijustu Focus + Gnome Quickrazor, and one of the only ways to do significant damage in melee. Incarnates help with Dissolving Spittle. They can only get up to 7d6 acid damage because of not being able to expand thier essentia capacity from multiple sources, though (SOB), but binding it to the throat chakra improves the damage-per-round enough to make it useful alongside IJF. Not everyone will be flatfooted anymore, because you can't really pimp out Hide. (Spot is uslaly just Ranks+Wis+Alertness, and is not brought down enough to give you hope.)

Totemists aren't affected so much by the change. Kruthik Claws (base damage), Sphinx Claws, and Urksan Greaves (bonus) becomes a much better strategy than Girallon Arms, though. Shape Soulmeld (Thunderstep Boots) replaces Urksan Greaves as soon as available.

The Soulborn receives death by nerfbat. No one notices.

Spellthieves realize that their half-roles now overlap instead of stacking. They look to Wraithstrike for guidance, and then realize that being able to hit Touch ACs doesn't really matter anymore when the AC will just reference the 2nd highest bonus instead of armor.

Psychic Warriors aren't bothered too much, since Claws of the Beast + Expansion does enough d6s to matter in comparison to everyone else, and there's only one bonus they care about to their Power Points. Augmented Inertial Armor or Force Screen make sure they aren't hit very often, either. Of all the classes, only Monk and Totemist cope as well as PsyWar.