Synergy Or Exploit?

[MidgetMarine]

Hello there, GiTP forums. I have a question for you. But first.
Note: Yes, this is based off of another thread I posted recently, but is not the same.

So, let me catch you up. I found a little synergy that I thought was very very cool for my current character. However, when talking to one of my fellow players in the campaign in which I am running said character, he told me "I'm going to say it outright. That's an exploit, not a synergy. But I'm totally cool with it."

So I come to you GiTP, to ask, is this an exploit or a synergy? And, more importantly, is it too much. Will this give me an outrageous advantage, and should I refrain from actually applying it in game?

So here's the situation.

I am playing a Tiefling Soulknife, with plans to take a level (potentially more) In Pyrokineticist. Now, one of the soulknife's abilities is called 'enhanced mindblade'. This ability allows the soulknife to add an enhancement bonus or a enhancement like flaming, flaming burst, etc. to his blade. Now, there is a +1 ability on this list of enhancements that is called Vicious. For those who are unaware, Vicious adds 2d6 damage to your melee attacks with a weapon, but also does 1d6 damage to you whenever you successfully hit said enemy. So, just a matter of whether the risk is worth it. Now, the Pyrokineticist (PrC) gets an ability at level 1 called 'flame lash'. This ability allows the Pyrokineticist to manifest a flaming whip, much like the Soulknife does his mind blade. Because of the similarity, the Pyrokineticist allows a Soulknife to treat the flame lash as his mind blade.

Quote: "If the character has the ability to fashion a mind blade and has the Altered Blade blade skill, her fire lash may be treated as her mind blade for mechanical purposes such as enhanced mind blade and other class abilities."

Thus, I could apply Vicious to the flame lash. Again, not a problem. Here's where the synergy/exploit kicks in. In the same paragraph as the quote I just posted (in fact, directly after it) the rules state this.

Quote: All damage dealt by the mind blade in this form, including psychic strike damage and bonus damage from weapon abilities, is fire damage, and the pyrokineticist may not use the fire lash to perform disarm or trip attempts unless she has selected the appropriate Weapon Special blade skill.

The important part of that quote is the area in bold. (The rest was included so that I wasn't accused of cutting something out) As it clearly states, All damage done by the mind blade in that form is fire damage. Including weapon abilities. Like Vicious. So basically the 1d6 damage on hit, to myself, is turned into 1d6 fire damage. And once again, this isn't a problem...yet. Now, here's the bit that glues it all together. Tieflings have, as a racial feature, Resistance to fire\5. Meaning any fire damage I take is reduced by 5 points. (Can reduce damage to 0, but not below.)

This clearly means that the 1d6 fire damage from the vicious enchantment on my lash is subject to this resistance. Meaning that unless I roll a 6, I take no damage. And even on a 6, only take one point.

I think this is a great synergy with my racial abilities, my friend thinks it is more of a rule bender. So I leave you to judge, Is it a synergy or an exploit? And is it too much?

[Tvtyrant]

I'm not really sure how you could interpret this as rule bending. The attack does a certain amount of damage and backlashes a smaller amount to the wielder, and in this case the wielder happens to have resistance to the damage. Not even immunity, just resistance. I would call this synergy myself.

[MidgetMarine]

Thank you.
Also, very well put. That's a great summary of the the synergy, and shows how reasonable it is.

Still, it'll be interesting to hear other peoples' opinions on this

[mattie_p]

This is hardly worldbreaking. I'd be totally fine with it as a DM, and congratulate you for a nice find. It's not like you are a psion manifesting schism and abusing the action economy or anything.

[BowStreetRunner]

One of the ways I like to evaluate a potential 'exploit' is just how hard is it to get the benefit and how good is the benefit received. So what you are talking about here is a character with Mindblade + Enhanced Mindblade (Vicious) + Flame Lash + Altered Blade + Racial Resistance to Fire 5 gains the ability to apply +2d6 damage to melee attacks reduce the 1d6 fire damage he takes by 5 points...

I would say this is no exploit. Honestly, I could find far less difficult ways to increase a melee attack's damage by 2d6 without taking damage myself. I would say that by the time you are able to use this in your build it will be no more overpowered than anything else in the game.

[TuggyNE]

In this case, I suspect it's not the magnitude of the perceived exploit that has your friend up in arms, but the apparent cheesiness (even on a small scale). That said, managing to negate most of the downside to a particular weapon enhancement isn't all that cheesy, especially because it makes logical sense as a whole. (A slightly fiendish character being able to viciously attack their enemies with next to no backlash is entirely plausible.) And, of course, it's perfectly clear from a rules perspective that this combo works.

So, to sum up: it's a fairly minor accomplishment on the grand scale (~7 extra damage per hit, which won't scale any further, at the cost of taking 1 fire damage every few turns), it's logical from both fluff and crunch, and it takes a good bit of investment to get it running. Compare the psionic weapon property collision, which adds a flat 5 damage to every hit (and is multiplied on a crit), with no possibility of backlash and no extra investment needed — for +2 bonus, which makes it decent but not great.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Those aren't mutually exclusive terms. In fact, all mechanical exploits are the result of synergy.

The question of what an exploit is, is usually either one of scope or one of intent. If you find a way to get too many synergistic abilities onto the same character, you exceed the expected power of either the game or the group and it becomes a problem. If you find a way to make synergistic abilities cancel one anothers drawbacks, or turn those drawbacks into benefits it's probably an exploit.

Generally this is a matter of connotation; synergy is good, exploit is bad; but by the actuall definitions of the words, they're the same thing.

Rule bending is something else altogether and in that case exploit is a polite word for cheating.

What you've found is a nice synergistic exploit. It's not a game-breaker though, so it really shouldn't be a problem.

[ericgrau]

It does seem like a loophole but so small of one that it might not cause any actual trouble. I don't like it on a basis that similar abuse could cause no end of trouble, but this particular trick doesn't seem to be a huge problem.

The moment you start saying "I get this massive benefit but there's also a massive drawback. And oh I easily negate the drawback." therein lies the path of darkness. Or the same thing with a half dozen moderate but stackable benefits is just as bad but might slip past the radar more easily.

[Wookie-ranger]

I agree with pretty much everything that has been said. Its not a problem for me, and as a DM i would allow it without much though.
You basically get 2d6 fire damage without a negative side effects. 2d6 is not that much AND all you damage is FIRE damage. At higher levels a lot of things are immune/resistant to fire.
Also since all of your damage is fire damage it is useless underwater. (DMG p93)

It might bee cheesy, but on a VERY low level. If your friend really has a problem with it and thinks its OP; just play a Wizard or Cleric :smallwink:

[KillianHawkeye]

I cannot find any mention of mind blades in the entry for the Pyrokineticist's fire lash, nor this Altered Mind Blade ability.

Is this for Pathfinder? :smallconfused:

[Kelb_Panthera]

I cannot find any mention of mind blades in the entry for the Pyrokineticist's fire lash, nor this Altered Mind Blade ability.

Is this for Pathfinder? :smallconfused:

It's definitely not XPH. I've got a thing for the low tier classes, so I can say with some certainty that the 3.5 soulknife has no "altered blade skill." This is either pathfinder or homebrew. Given that the OP is quoting rules, I'm inclined to think that it's pathfinder.

[Psyren]

OP is indeed referring to both the PF Soulknife and PF Pyrokineticist.

And yes, this trick is fine. Some DMs have low tolerance for tricks of any kind, but I tend to find that the ones with this mindset are the type who think melee shouldn't have anything nice.

[sdream]

Definitely you are exploiting a nice synergy... but why would your character NOT try to make his class abilities and racial advantages work well together?

Everybody (apparently including your DM) agrees this is well within reasonable play style.

If you are in a region with tons of fire vulnerable monsters and everyone else in the party does terrible damage (and doesn't have other cool things) this could be a problem.

More likely in practice it will be no big deal.

[MidgetMarine]

Thanks a ton, guys. And My DM has just given me the thumbs up. Thanks for the input. I look forwards to seeing this actually happen. Because it seems like it'll be fun to play.

[Medic!]

If it'll help cool your fellow player's outrage, I would point him at the Life-Drinker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#lifeDrinker) weapon from the DMG, where it specifically points out that Undead often use the weapon because they can ignore the drawbacks.