Good Class Ops for Bosses

[jack101]

Well, I'm DMing a new campagn, and I'm trying to make all bosses pretty much OPed characters. Any ideas?

[Eurus]

Be careful. A lot of PCs are "OP" because they essentially pick low-risk high-reward tactics that would be horrifically un-fun to fight against. Save-or-die spells, for example, are really just a bad idea in general to use against PCs because it either has no effect at all or just flat out tells someone to roll up a new character.

That being said, there are still some fun options. Hellfire Warlock is one of my favorites, especially if you make it an Eldritch Glaive-lock. Or do an Egoist Psion who uses Vigor+Share Pain+Metamorphosis with his Psicrystal to turn into two nasty things at once. Perhaps a Dragonfire Inspiration Bard who boosts his Diplomacy score to turn hordes of soldiers fanatical, then throws +5d6 energy damage boosts on them. Spiked chain trippers, an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil who just says "LOL nope" to every attack you throw at him...

[Randomguy]

OP as in overpowered or optimized?

In either case: Wizard, druid and Cleric are pretty much the way to go.

For melee, you'll probably want CoDzillas or Frenzied Berserker barbarians with spirit lion totem and whirling frenzy variant, in addition to Leap Attack, a high AC and Shock Trooper.

[Ranting Fool]

Well, I'm DMing a new campagn, and I'm trying to make all bosses pretty much OPed characters. Any ideas?

Making bosses that are extra Killy or too hard to hurt isn't that hard. Even standard builds are fine if the BBEG is a few levels higher then the party + better funds (bare in mind that items he has they can get) I like having a mix of mega powerful bosses and a lot of lesser bosses for the PC's to stomp on.

One very important thing is "Expect and Plan for your bosses to die" players are a tricky lot and if they out think you (hey they outnumber you so they might think of something you haven't) your big scary boss could die in round 1. So make sure the items he carries aren't game braking. Make sure he/she/it has an escapes root and not just "He gets away no matter what the players do"

Pure spell casters do well in terms of power. Druids/Wizards/Clerics. Though I'd like to point you towards Liches :smallbiggrin: only thing they have to be is Evil and Caster Level 11 (meaning a level 11 duskblade could be a lich for example) I rarely use them but am fond of them for the "No matter what unless they find my soul jar I'll be coming back muhahahahahhahahaah" factor :smallbiggrin:

One thing to remember: If the boss is too powerful.... why hasn't he just wiped out the party already?

[Kelb_Panthera]

For all the hate it gets as a PC class, Monk. For just the same reason it gets all that hate too. Almost all of the class-features are defensive. He'll be a booger to kill without being too overpowering in offense.

I'd advise against an ubercharger FB though. The damage numbers on such a character are mindboggling. It's essentially a no-save-just-die to the pc that he charges unless you can prevent him from charging.

[Urpriest]

If you're really going for zany NPC optimization here, be sure to tack on were-Battletitan. You get 36HD for CR +6, which also means that any caster class levels will be non-associated up to 36. This means you break even on CR at level 12, and have a lower CR than a comparable PHB-race from level 13 on.

[Silva Stormrage]

Also I find that if you want a good boss fight gestalting the boss is a good way to increase defenses without increasing saves, hp, spell casting too high.

[BladeofObliviom]

I've found that just making bosses overall more powerful doesn't work all that well.

One memorable boss fight in my playgroup was a Fallen Hero by the name of Ivan Blackwood. He was a Binder 2/Sorcerer 4/Anima Mage 10/Archmage 4, and had the Improved Binding feat, so he could bind 3 Vestiges up to Level 6, cast 9th level spells, and could temporarily trade vestiges for spellcasting as an immediate action.

This was against a party of 8 mid-op 15th-level characters. :smallsigh:

Turn 1, he cast Time Stop, pulled out a scroll to disjoin the party, cast it, then dominated both of the Melee guys. Before anyone else even got an action, he cast Stinking Cloud on the spellcasters as an immediate action, and they all failed the save...

Suffice it to say that this was a TPK. :smalleek:

[Psyren]

I suggest an optimized debuffer. Bosses that debuff are great - they're challenging, the right debuffs can hurt the party even after the fight is over, and they give different party members a chance to shine (i.e. those with immunities, high saves, or those that can counter or remove the debuff in question.) And debuffs make the fight hard without it becoming binary like a save-or-die would.

For instance, disease is a terrible tactic for the PCs to use, but a boss that infects them with something truly virulent and horrible can be another plot-hook all on its own. Curses, poisons, negative levels, attribute penalties, possession, sundering, theft etc. are all nifty tactics to roll out against the party, and very few of them will result in instant death.

You can even try kidnapping. For instance, Shadow Walk is one of the few teleportation/planar travel effects that doesn't require willing targets. A baddie who optimizes theirs to snatch a party member or key NPC away (while simultaneously escaping to be a "thorn in the PCs' side") can cause all kinds of havoc. And even if the PC breaks free mid-transit, the PoS is not a nice place to hang around.

EDIT:


I've found that just making bosses overall more powerful doesn't work all that well.

One memorable boss fight in my playgroup was a Fallen Hero by the name of Ivan Blackwood. He was a Binder 2/Sorcerer 4/Anima Mage 10/Archmage 4, and had the Improved Binding feat, so he could bind 3 Vestiges up to Level 6, cast 9th level spells, and could temporarily trade vestiges for spellcasting as an immediate action.

This was against a party of 8 mid-op 15th-level characters. :smallsigh:

Turn 1, he cast Time Stop, pulled out a scroll to disjoin the party, cast it, then dominated both of the Melee guys. Before anyone else even got an action, he cast Stinking Cloud on the spellcasters as an immediate action, and they all failed the save...

Suffice it to say that this was a TPK. :smalleek:

To be blunt, Disjunction is largely seen as a jerk move no matter which side uses it. Also, you can't use it, or Dominate anyone, during a Time Stop. So yes, breaking the rules does in fact lead to unforeseen consequences.

[eggs]

Does boss fight mean "dramatic 1 v. Party fight"?

I usually aim for lots of layered defenses (eg. high saves+mettle+an array of immunities/resistances), control-based offense (ie. debuffs, save-or-sucks, battlefield control), weak fight-ending abilities (ie. damage output or save-or-dies) and a heavy emphasis on action-economy tricks (whether that means denying the party actions, getting more for the character itself) and a heavy focus on immediate actions.

Otherwise, rocket tag turns the fight that's supposed to be dramatic and tactically engaging into a question of who rolls higher initiative.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't know if anyone else has already said this but, never have the boss stand alone. Seriously, never. Action economy is too important to ignore like that.

If you absolutely must (seriously don't though), then make sure there's -something- to distract at least one member of the party from attacking him directly, though distracting two of them would be better. Alternately, try to arrange a reason for it to be a one-on-one fight with a specific rival in the party.

It might hurt the drama to have the BBEG having mooks standing on the sidelines during his villainous monologue, but it doesn't hurt the drama nearly as much as having him squashed by the 4:1 action economy difference in the first round or two of combat.

[Ranting Fool]

I don't know if anyone else has already said this but, never have the boss stand alone. Seriously, never. Action economy is too important to ignore like that.

If you absolutely must (seriously don't though), then make sure there's -something- to distract at least one member of the party from attacking him directly, though distracting two of them would be better. Alternately, try to arrange a reason for it to be a one-on-one fight with a specific rival in the party.

It might hurt the drama to have the BBEG having mooks standing on the sidelines during his villainous monologue, but it doesn't hurt the drama nearly as much as having him squashed by the 4:1 action economy difference in the first round or two of combat.

A "good" Big Bad Evil Guy should always have a few minons (Even more important if he/she/it is a caster :smallbiggrin: maybe a mind controlled NPC that the PC's don't want to kill (so less likely to alpha strike)

[Cranthis]

What everyone else said is better advice than this. This is just to reccomend a class for a boss.

Duskblades make excellent bosses. Decent hp, Damage output is great.

They are tough enough to work well, but not so hard to beat that your players will start to lose interest, or begin regretting playing.

[RFLS]

Seconding the gestalt recommendation and the "give him mooks" recommendation. I've found in the past that golems make for good mooks, and if you can swing it, some rogues sniping from the sides. Additionally, if they're breaking in to his home, be sure to give him the home field advantage. Traps, hidey holes, and all the other goodies someone like that would have.

Shameless self plug. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13333383#post13333383) I designed that to be an out-of-the-box boss character, and I'm curious to see how it fares. The campaign I made it for ended rather prematurely, so I never got to take him for a spin.

[Eldariel]

Be careful. A lot of PCs are "OP" because they essentially pick low-risk high-reward tactics that would be horrifically un-fun to fight against. Save-or-die spells, for example, are really just a bad idea in general to use against PCs because it either has no effect at all or just flat out tells someone to roll up a new character.

Eh, once game exceeds level 9 and things like Revivify, Last Breath and Death Ward are on the table, Save-or-Dies are perfectly alright against PCs. Provided we're talking about a party of average power level, of course; Fighter/Swashbuckler/Paladin/Ninja would require different considerations.


To be blunt, Disjunction is largely seen as a jerk move no matter which side uses it. Also, you can't use it, or Dominate anyone, during a Time Stop. So yes, breaking the rules does in fact lead to unforeseen consequences.

To be fair, it could be pulled off with Greater Rod of Delay Spell, so while this was probably blatantly breaking the rules, it could happen. Then again, 9th level spells are kinda a big deal. And yeah, under level 17, Disjunction is really something that shouldn't be happening a lot (e.g. Adamantine Horror *shudder*).

[danzibr]

Think of all the bosses you've seen. So many options!

Some bosses do indeed have tons of henchmen. Some bosses are bamf lone rangers. Some attack from a distance, some are sneaky, some do this, some do that.

Really, pretty much any class can make a good boss I think. Even a straight Fighter or, as someone else suggested, Monk. Things change drastically at higher levels, but low to mid levels when there aren't so many save-or-whatever effects you're good.

I'm also a big fan of adding free templates and/or (as someone already suggested) doing some free gestalt.

For example, a lowly Kobold isn't very scary, but the Half-Dragon Kobold who is a champion of his people, a Paladin of Tyranny//Swordsage can be really cool, and he'd surely be the kind of boss with henchmen. I'd think the aforementioned boss, say level 5 or so, would be a great encounter for a level 5 party (with appropriate henchmen/terrain).

[Eurus]

I feel like Disjunction's ability to erase buffs without hassle is actually very important, so I would seriously recommend making it either ignore items or suppress them for a minute.

[Malroth]

Shadow Craft mage Killer Gnome makes for a Great Boss, They walk in the room hear the monologuing start and ubercharge only to find that the wizard they killed was their princess friend under the suggestion to "smile at your friends while i negotiate your release" and the illusion that was masking her became a 100% shadow reality effective Pit fiend in grapple range and that he set off a bunch of invisible traps targeted at the room entrance. This pattern continues for several rooms.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Shadow Craft mage Killer Gnome makes for a Great Boss, They walk in the room hear the monologuing start and ubercharge only to find that the wizard they killed was their princess friend under the suggestion to "smile at your friends while i negotiate your release" and the illusion that was masking her became a 100% shadow reality effective Pit fiend in grapple range and that he set off a bunch of invisible traps targeted at the room entrance. This pattern continues for several rooms.

This is a solid suggestion........ If you're running a meat-grinder of a campaign. Otherwise, this is probably a bit over-the-top.

Illusionist is a good suggestion in a less specific sense though. It's the perfect rival for a diviner.

[danzibr]

Shadow Craft mage Killer Gnome makes for a Great Boss, They walk in the room hear the monologuing start and ubercharge only to find that the wizard they killed was their princess friend under the suggestion to "smile at your friends while i negotiate your release" and the illusion that was masking her became a 100% shadow reality effective Pit fiend in grapple range and that he set off a bunch of invisible traps targeted at the room entrance.
Despite the fact that this is one really long sentence I like it.

[Slipperychicken]

To be blunt, Disjunction is largely seen as a jerk move no matter which side uses it. Also, you can't use it, or Dominate anyone, during a Time Stop. So yes, breaking the rules does in fact lead to unforeseen consequences.

Seconded on both counts.


If you use Disjunction, expect PCs to start pulling out the cheese, too.

"Oh he Disjoined my stuff? Good thing it was just my Astral Projection gear. I wake up in my personal demiplane, make sure my Craft Contingent Revivify is still on, say 'hi' to my Ice Assassin army, and get my Nightmare to re-cast Astral Projection on me"

[Eldariel]

If you use Disjunction, expect PCs to start pulling out the cheese, too.

"Oh he Disjoined my stuff? Good thing it was just my Astral Projection gear. I wake up in my personal demiplane, make sure my Craft Contingent Revivify is still on, say 'hi' to my Ice Assassin army, and get my Nightmare to re-cast Astral Projection on me"

Disjunction is worlds away from Ice Assassin though. It's just a super-efficient anti-magic effect with a controlling effect on the world's magic item economy, while Ice Assassin actually wrecks the gameworld (in that it enables creation of deities pre-epic).

Besides, if PC lets his stuff get disjoined, he's bloody careless. It doesn't take Astral Projection to protect against it (of course, I'd fully expect level 17 PCs to utilize Astral Projection); simple Will-save per item blocks that component and that's if you let the spell land in the first place.


If I'm playing a mid OP high level game I fully expect Disjunction to get thrown around; if Shapechange, Time Stop and Gate are allowed, Disjunction more or less needs to be too. Of course, if wanting to avoid this headache just cutting away level 9 spells entirely does wonders (though there's still Simulacrum, etc.).

But in a game close to RAW in pre-epics, Disjunction is a key component in keeping a bunch of stuff in check. In fact, it's one of the very few things able to really deal with AMF-protected casters, supernatural buffs and such. Destroying magic items is annoying but ultimately only problematic if the game contains under-tier 2 classes, which doesn't seem especially viable given the power level we're expecting in the first place. Hell, casters can reproduce 'em with relatively little effort; it's not like money is really an object in pre-epics.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Disjunction is worlds away from Ice Assassin though. It's just a super-efficient anti-magic effect with a controlling effect on the world's magic item economy, while Ice Assassin actually wrecks the gameworld (in that it enables creation of deities pre-epic).

Besides, if PC lets his stuff get disjoined, he's bloody careless. It doesn't take Astral Projection to protect against it (of course, I'd fully expect level 17 PCs to utilize Astral Projection); simple Will-save per item blocks that component and that's if you let the spell land in the first place.


If I'm playing a mid OP high level game I fully expect Disjunction to get thrown around; if Shapechange, Time Stop and Gate are allowed, Disjunction more or less needs to be too. Of course, if wanting to avoid this headache just cutting away level 9 spells entirely does wonders (though there's still Simulacrum, etc.).

But in a game close to RAW in pre-epics, Disjunction is a key component in keeping a bunch of stuff in check. In fact, it's one of the very few things able to really deal with AMF-protected casters, supernatural buffs and such. Destroying magic items is annoying but ultimately only problematic if the game contains under-tier 2 classes, which doesn't seem especially viable given the power level we're expecting in the first place. Hell, casters can reproduce 'em with relatively little effort; it's not like money is really an object in pre-epics.

See now, I have a problem with several of the assumptions made here, particularly the bold.

Disjunction is the nuclear option. It should only be used infrequently and as a last resort, unless you're playing close to the line between PO and TO.

[Eldariel]

See now, I have a problem with several of the assumptions made here, particularly the bold.

Disjunction is the nuclear option. It should only be used infrequently and as a last resort, unless you're playing close to the line between PO and TO.

I think a game with 9th level spells without heavy bannings and houseruling will inevitably be near the PO and TO line.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I think a game with 9th level spells without heavy bannings and houseruling will inevitably be near the PO and TO line.

That's entirely dependent on the group playing.

A recent thread was created where the OP was asking how to deal with his 17+ level wizard player who was spamming sonic adjusted evocations. Going by the routine described, this definitely wasn't a mailman, or even close. He was burning off a large portion of his high-level spells to do this.

[Eldariel]

That's entirely dependent on the group playing.

A recent thread was created where the OP was asking how to deal with his 17+ level wizard player who was spamming sonic adjusted evocations. Going by the routine described, this definitely wasn't a mailman, or even close. He was burning off a large portion of his high-level spells to do this.

*shrug* Of course it can happen but that doesn't really fill my criteria anyways since he's not using 9th level spells; he's just using 9th level slots to metamagic some lower level damage spells and calling it a day so effectively he's not operating on the level a caster with 9th level spells does.

I mean, I guess there's that one player somewhere who prepared Meteor Swarm/Weird/Wail of the Banshee in all his 9th level slots too but ultimately that's just player either being too inexperienced to use actual 9th level spells (let's be honest, Meteor Swarm/Wail effects aren't really 9th level worthy) or is consciously restricting himself out of all the truly powerful spells. Either way, that doesn't have much bearing on what happens in close-to-RAW pre-epic.


Like half of the core 9th level spells are encounter breakers or gamebreakers that completely dominate the game and make anybody without them pitifully weak by comparison. In a game on this high level including full casters, I'd say it's naive for a DM to expect the game to not include said spells unless they're banned/restricted by houserules.

[Kelb_Panthera]

*shrug* Of course it can happen but that doesn't really fill my criteria anyways since he's not using 9th level spells; he's just using 9th level slots to metamagic some lower level damage spells and calling it a day so effectively he's not operating on the level a caster with 9th level spells does.

I mean, I guess there's that one player somewhere who prepared Meteor Swarm/Weird/Wail of the Banshee in all his 9th level slots too but ultimately that's just player either being too inexperienced to use actual 9th level spells (let's be honest, Meteor Swarm/Wail effects aren't really 9th level worthy) or is consciously restricting himself out of all the truly powerful spells. Either way, that doesn't have much bearing on what happens in close-to-RAW pre-epic.


Like half of the core 9th level spells are encounter breakers or gamebreakers that completely dominate the game and make anybody without them pitifully weak by comparison. In a game on this high level including full casters, I'd say it's naive for a DM to expect the game to not include said spells unless they're banned/restricted by houserules.

Actually, the crux of the afformentioned wizard's combo was time stop and delay spell, but that's neither here nor there.

Meteor swarm, wierd, wail of the banshee, etc are all 9th level spells by RAW. Whether you or I think they should be or not is irrelevant.

What you're describing isn't mid-op close to RAW, it's high-op.

There's nothing wrong with high-op, mind, but it does indeed get close to the line between PO and TO by definition. If it were mid-op it'd be unarguably PO.

In the end though, we're splitting hairs.

Only a portion of all groups are comfortable at the level of optimization where disjunction is considered par-for-the-course, regardless of whether you consider that mid, high, or theoretical op levels. The notion that it should or will be included in any game that isn't the one you're running is presumptuous.

[Eldariel]

The notion that it should or will be included in any game that isn't the one you're running is presumptuous.

I never said it should be included by default, I said it's a package deal; if you're running Shapechange, Gate, Time Stop, Astral Projection, etc. you probably should be including Disjunction too. And if you don't like the magic item destroying capacity, you're of course perfectly within your rights to remove it.

'cause the fundamental nuclear bomb effect of Disjunction is fairly key when caster levels get too high for GDM to function and buffs get to the level where people are immortal unless buffs are dispelled.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I never said it should be included by default, I said it's a package deal; if you're running Shapechange, Gate, Time Stop, Astral Projection, etc. you probably should be including Disjunction too. And if you don't like the magic item destroying capacity, you're of course perfectly within your rights to remove it.

'cause the fundamental nuclear bomb effect of Disjunction is fairly key when caster levels get too high for GDM to function and buffs get to the level where people are immortal unless buffs are dispelled.

Except maybe timestop those spells aren't a problem unless they're used in an abusive manner. Gate can be used to travel from one plane to another, shapechange can turn you into a bruiser with no notable special abilities, and astral projection can be used almost entirely for plane-hopping. It's the calling of powerful outsiders with SP's that break the game that makes gate a potential problem, turning into the same for shapechange, and using astral projection to be unkillable while your body is safely ensconced on a personal demiplane that are the problems, not the spells themselves.

Disjunction has its place, but that place is generally high-op caster heavy games.

For most any other game, it's a serious option that should be handled with great care.

[Eldariel]

Except maybe timestop those spells aren't a problem unless they're used in an abusive manner. Gate can be used to travel from one plane to another, shapechange can turn you into a bruiser with no notable special abilities, and astral projection can be used almost entirely for plane-hopping. It's the calling of powerful outsiders with SP's that break the game that makes gate a potential problem, turning into the same for shapechange, and using astral projection to be unkillable while your body is safely ensconced on a personal demiplane that are the problems, not the spells themselves.

Sure, but there's no need for those spells for those roles. You can hop just fine with Plane Shift/GTeleport, Polymorph is enough to turn you into a scary bruiser, etc. You don't really need Shapechange to be a bruiser or Gate to travel planes.

If those are the uses the player intends for those spells there's no need for 9th level spells in the first place; the only place where they are necessary are the worldbreaking uses (there are scales here too of course; Gating in Prismatic Dragon doesn't automatically lead to chain Gating after all though it's still an insanely powerful effect).

As such, I'd argue the game is no worse off with said spells removed if this is the DM's intended utility and power level for the game. The potential of said spells is ridiculously beyond the bounds of what a game with under tier 2 classes can stand and above that it depends on our definitions. I'd also argue those spells are more powerful than Disjunction (when talking about the spell power; how you use the power is of course up to you. It's fully possible to play Pun-Pun as a Commoner and be the least powerful character in the party too after all but that doesn't really speak anything of the power of Pun-Pun).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sure, but there's no need for those spells for those roles. You can hop just fine with Plane Shift/GTeleport, Polymorph is enough to turn you into a scary bruiser, etc. You don't really need Shapechange to be a bruiser or Gate to travel planes.

If those are the uses the player intends for those spells there's no need for 9th level spells in the first place; the only place where they are necessary are the worldbreaking uses (there are scales here too of course; Gating in Prismatic Dragon doesn't automatically lead to chain Gating after all though it's still an insanely powerful effect).

As such, I'd argue the game is no worse off with said spells removed if this is the DM's intended utility and power level for the game. The potential of said spells is ridiculously beyond the bounds of what a game with under tier 2 classes can stand and above that it depends on our definitions. I'd also argue those spells are more powerful than Disjunction (when talking about the spell power; how you use the power is of course up to you. It's fully possible to play Pun-Pun as a Commoner and be the least powerful character in the party too after all but that doesn't really speak anything of the power of Pun-Pun).

I'm not arguing that they're necessary at that level, just available and that they have non-abusive uses. As for disjunction being less powerful though; bull. The ability to utterly cripple any non-caster, humanoid enemy is every bit as dangerous as being unkillable or shattering the action economy. It's just a bit more niche.

If a player makes frequent use of disjunction he's saying to his DM "you will only give us casters and monsters to fight." If the DM does the same, he's saying "You're playing a non-caster? You're doomed."

Disjunction limits options while the other ninth level spells enable them, albeit a bit too much in some cases.

Worse, disjunction endangers the non-casters in the party even if the party's caster is the one to use it. The AoE isn't enormous, but it's not trivially small either. As for WBLomancy as a solution to that problem, that's both ignoring a rule and ignoring the fact that economy is a thing in some games.

[Wise Green Bean]

Sniper bosses can be interesting. They aren't doing a whole lot of damage, the challenge is finding them before they eventually do enough. Assassin with sniper's eye and a decent(not invincible) hide check, plus escape routes?

You'd have to be careful, of course. If it took too long it'd get boring, especially if the bastard just pulls out dimensional door whenever they get within a few hundred feet.

Also, I imagine the right divination spell would just end this fight stupid easy, so you'd have to check what spells they have before hand.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sniper bosses can be interesting. They aren't doing a whole lot of damage, the challenge is finding them before they eventually do enough. Assassin with sniper's eye and a decent(not invincible) hide check, plus escape routes?

You'd have to be careful, of course. If it took too long it'd get boring, especially if the bastard just pulls out dimensional door whenever they get within a few hundred feet.

Also, I imagine the right divination spell would just end this fight stupid easy, so you'd have to check what spells they have before hand.

Most divination can be blocked.

For a sniper to work as an encounter, you have to make the party aware of the sniper's presence without giving away his exact location. You also have to place things such that simply leaving the area under a projectile blocking spell isn't an option.

If you do it right, it can be a really tense, dramatic scene. If you do it wrong, it feels like a completely arbitrary save or die out of nowhere; just one step above a falling rocks scenario.

[Eldariel]

I'm not arguing that they're necessary at that level, just available and that they have non-abusive uses. As for disjunction being less powerful though; bull. The ability to utterly cripple any non-caster, humanoid enemy is every bit as dangerous as being unkillable or shattering the action economy. It's just a bit more niche.

It's useful and powerful, I'm just saying it's less powerful than "I get whatever abilities I want every turn of the game" Shapechange, "I get the support of an epic creature, a second superWizard or so on" of Gate, "I replicate items and become unkillable" of Astral Projection or "I have enough actions to kill an elder god" of Time Stop.

Yeah, it can wreck non-casters (not necessarily tho; there's a handful of items and class features that can negate a Disjunction) but really, same goes for any of the above spells. Yes, the others are enabling and catapult you to new spheres of power; Disjunction is the other side of that coin, being able to threaten a buff-stacked spellcaster.

Of course this discussion ultimately comes down to my opinion that if the game is level 17+ and spellcasters are in it, everybody should be a spellcaster. That's why I don't see the problem with Disjunction; I don't think the people truly wrecked by it should exist in a game where said spell is allowed and castable.


Worse, disjunction endangers the non-casters in the party even if the party's caster is the one to use it. The AoE isn't enormous, but it's not trivially small either. As for WBLomancy as a solution to that problem, that's both ignoring a rule and ignoring the fact that economy is a thing in some games.

Gold-based economy doesn't really work on level 20 tho; magic breaks it too heavily. Wish-based economy, soul-based economy or some such doesn't really give a **** about magic items being destroyed (artifacts, maybe, but that's a feature, not a bug).

Besides, WBL isn't a rule. It's a recommendation, that frankly flies outta the window long before level 20.



Sniper bosses can be interesting. They aren't doing a whole lot of damage, the challenge is finding them before they eventually do enough. Assassin with sniper's eye and a decent(not invincible) hide check, plus escape routes?

You'd have to be careful, of course. If it took too long it'd get boring, especially if the bastard just pulls out dimensional door whenever they get within a few hundred feet.

Also, I imagine the right divination spell would just end this fight stupid easy, so you'd have to check what spells they have before hand.

I find they work excellently with mooks that try to stall the PCs while the sniper takes them out. That gives the PCs something to do other than just running around and creates the additional tactical challenge of bypassing the obstacles to get to the big threat.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's useful and powerful, I'm just saying it's less powerful than "I get whatever abilities I want every turn of the game" Shapechange, "I get the support of an epic creature, a second superWizard or so on" of Gate, "I replicate items and become unkillable" of Astral Projection or "I have enough actions to kill an elder god" of Time Stop.

Yeah, it can wreck non-casters (not necessarily tho; there's a handful of items and class features that can negate a Disjunction) but really, same goes for any of the above spells. Yes, the others are enabling and catapult you to new spheres of power; Disjunction is the other side of that coin, being able to threaten a buff-stacked spellcaster.

Of course this discussion ultimately comes down to my opinion that if the game is level 17+ and spellcasters are in it, everybody should be a spellcaster. That's why I don't see the problem with Disjunction; I don't think the people truly wrecked by it should exist in a game where said spell is allowed and castable.



Gold-based economy doesn't really work on level 20 tho; magic breaks it too heavily. Wish-based economy, soul-based economy or some such doesn't really give a **** about magic items being destroyed (artifacts, maybe, but that's a feature, not a bug).

Besides, WBL isn't a rule. It's a recommendation, that frankly flies outta the window long before level 20.




I find they work excellently with mooks that try to stall the PCs while the sniper takes them out. That gives the PCs something to do other than just running around and creates the additional tactical challenge of bypassing the obstacles to get to the big threat.

If you're comfortable throwing out WBL, that's cool. I won't stop you. I couldn't if I wanted to, unless I was your DM.

I just don't think that assuming that other DM's will is a good assumption to make when giving advice.

Besides, an economy based in magical effects still needs a base unit of currency, and that unit is still the gold piece for D&D adventurers. There are given values for the casting of a spell, and suggested or implied values for both souls and wish created items.

I don't feel that the game particularly benefits from characters being unbounded in wealth, but clearly your mileage very much does vary.