DMing a Wizard

[Threadnaught]

Guys, question about the Wizard. I know how many Spells a Sorcerer is supposed to have at each level, but for a Wizard the SRD says all 0th level Spells, three 1st level Spells and one 1st level Spell per +1 from Intelligence. Each level gained in the class granting two Spells of a level the Wizard can cast.

I've been teasing my 5th level Wizard by letting them put Spells in their Spellbook, but not allowing them use of the Spells until they level up, at which point they unlock 2 of a level they can cast.

Have I interprated the rules wrong?
My Druid is gonna call me a bad DM eitherway, because I'm not allowing them access to 9th level Spells at 4th CL... He's that guy who whines at every rule the DM uses and never wants to fail, aka a bit of a munchkin. Just not the sort who will even try to optimize.

The Spells the Wizard has in his Spellbook and can cast (not counting 0th level) so far are
Color Spray, Enlarge Person, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Magic Weapon, Reduce Person, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shocking Grasp, Bull's Strength, Flaming Sphere, Hideous Laughter, Invisibility, Dispel Magic and Fireball.

With these Spells yet to be castable and still taking up pages.
Disguise Self, Feather Fall, True Strike, Web, Fly and Protection from Energy.


The Wizard currently has no complaints about the way I run things, but should I be doing it differently?

[LordBlades]

Yes, you have been interpreting them wrong.

The PHB info refers to the spells the wizard gets to add into his spellbook automatically and at no cost. He can scribe as many more as he likes provided he can find them, has the free time and plays the cash to write them down.

Also, there's no limit on how many different spells he can cast either. A wizard can prepare whatever the hell he has in his spellbook (or other people's spellbooks too with some checks), only limitation is spell slots.

[Krazzman]

Have I interprated the rules wrong?

I believe that most DM's I have played with would think this is just finely interpreted.
The point with your interpretation is: How does this work with versatile spell caster?
Example: I have a level 2 wizard. I have the spell Bull's Strenght in my Book but normally wouldn't be able to cast it. But if I forgo 2 1st level spell slots I would have a 2nd level spells lot to prepare it in. Allowed or not?



My Druid is gonna call me a bad DM eitherway, because I'm not allowing them access to 9th level Spells at 4th CL... He's that guy who whines at every rule the DM uses and never wants to fail, aka a bit of a munchkin. Just not the sort who will even try to optimize.

The Spells the Wizard has in his Spellbook and can cast (not counting 0th level) so far are
Color Spray, Enlarge Person, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Magic Weapon, Reduce Person, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shocking Grasp, Bull's Strength, Flaming Sphere, Hideous Laughter, Invisibility, Dispel Magic and Fireball.

With these Spells yet to be castable and still taking up pages.
Disguise Self, Feather Fall, True Strike, Web, Fly and Protection from Energy.


The Wizard currently has no complaints about the way I run things, but should I be doing it differently?

If I understood you correctly he has 3rd level slots and has 3rd level spells in his book right?
The point is the Wizard knows all the Spells of the Level he can cast... that are in his book. The 2 per level are just free of charge. For the others he either has to buy a scroll or pay a wizard to let him copy from his spell book.

As such in RAW he would be able to cast Disguise Self and so on just fine.

[Crustypeanut]

You are interpreting them waaay wrong.

The 2 per level the wizard gets are ABOVE AND BEYOND everything they can scribe into their spellbooks. These 2 per level are free to scribe and automatic unless houseruled otherwise.

In addition, a wizard may scribe any other number of spells he can find - be it scrolls or other spellbooks - into his spellbook by spending 1 hour per spell level and a certain amount of money in ink depending on the spell level.

These are completely separate from the 2 per level. Basically, you are limiting your wizard severely by doing it the way you're doing it, and he should probably just go sorcerer instead of keeping on as is. Wizards are supposed to be versatile, rather than limited.

[hoverfrog]

According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm)


Spell Selection and Preparation
Until she prepares spells from her spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that she already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used. During the study period, she chooses which spells to prepare. If a wizard already has spells prepared (from the previous day) that she has not cast, she can abandon some or all of them to make room for new spells.

When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of her spells.

Spell Slots
The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.

What everyone else said but there's more. In addition to this a wizard can learn spells from someone else's spellbook.


Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster’s book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. She must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times she has prepared it before. If the check fails, she cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. (However, as explained above, she does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.)

Though as a house rule I throw the part about already knowing the spell out.

[Threadnaught]

Thank you for the responses guys, I'll let my Wizard have an encounter to "unlock his potential" which will let him cast everything he currently has in his Spellbook and gain access to 8 new Spells free of charge.

I'll also stop teasing him with the higher level Spells. :smallamused:


I have a level 2 wizard. I have the spell Bull's Strenght in my Book but normally wouldn't be able to cast it. But if I forgo 2 1st level spell slots I would have a 2nd level spellslot to prepare it in. Allowed or not?

Unless I try this, it could be interesting.

[Magic Myrmidon]

I'd say teasing with higher levels spells can still happen. It's kind of a neat houserule to allow a wizard to scribe a scroll into his spellbook ahead of being able to cast it. He'd have the spell when he levels, but he can't cast it until then. Makes some sense, too, since it's assumed he'd be studying it in his off time.

That being said, I'd also be careful with handing out higher level scrolls. Even if you mean for the wizard to scribe it, the party might decide to just forget about that and use the scroll, which might shatter an encounter or two, since higher level spells can be really powerful.

[Spuddles]

I'd say teasing with higher levels spells can still happen. It's kind of a neat houserule to allow a wizard to scribe a scroll into his spellbook ahead of being able to cast it. He'd have the spell when he levels, but he can't cast it until then. Makes some sense, too, since it's assumed he'd be studying it in his off time.

That being said, I'd also be careful with handing out higher level scrolls. Even if you mean for the wizard to scribe it, the party might decide to just forget about that and use the scroll, which might shatter an encounter or two, since higher level spells can be really powerful.

Wizards can copy any spell they want into their books, regardless of level. The only provisions is having enough material and succeeding a relatively easy spellcraft check.

[Magic Myrmidon]

Oh. Not a houserule then. I just never really see any instances of that happening. Neat.

Still. Careful with higher level spells.

[Mithril Leaf]

Oh. Not a houserule then. I just never really see any instances of that happening. Neat.

Still. Careful with higher level spells.

It's in fact one of the key points of making Red Wizards even more viable at high levels.

[TuggyNE]

A couple of points, just to clarify and reinforce what's already mostly been stated:
A wizard can copy a spell into their spellbook from another spellbook or a scroll; this is not limited by level
A wizard gets, free of charge and with no time expenditure*, two spells of a level they can cast at every level-up


Allowing a wizard to gain extra higher-level spells for free in exchange for fewer free lower-level spells is somewhat imbalanced.

*Besides the time they're assumed to have spent researching those spells in whatever fragments of downtime they have while actively adventuring.

[Slipperychicken]

Allowing a wizard to gain extra higher-level spells for free in exchange for fewer free lower-level spells is somewhat imbalanced.


Especially if you start at higher levels. Unless you got a Blessed Book, in which case it's a moot point, since your spells known are near-free anyway.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Especially if you start at higher levels. Unless you got a Blessed Book, in which case it's a moot point, since your spells known are near-free anyway.

I see this alot, but it's not really true.

By buying a BBB you're essentially pre-paying for spells you haven't found yet. It -does- make them notably cheaper in the long-run, but there's no such thing as free.

In fact, scribing the freebies you get at level up into a BBB actually makes all the other spells you add to the book slightly more expensive, though still alot cheaper than they would've been in a normal spell-book.

It's a great item, and well worth the cash, but it doesn't make anything free. You might even be cheating yourself out of loot if your DM counts the BBB against your WBL, but wasn't counting your normal spell-book against it.

[Spuddles]

I see this alot, but it's not really true.

By buying a BBB you're essentially pre-paying for spells you haven't found yet. It -does- make them notably cheaper in the long-run, but there's no such thing as free.

In fact, scribing the freebies you get at level up into a BBB actually makes all the other spells you add to the book slightly more expensive, though still alot cheaper than they would've been in a normal spell-book.

It's a great item, and well worth the cash, but it doesn't make anything free. You might even be cheating yourself out of loot if your DM counts the BBB against your WBL, but wasn't counting your normal spell-book against it.

A BBB with 100 1st level spells in it costs more than a regular spell book of the same. But 100 5th level spells....

[Kelb_Panthera]

A BBB with 100 1st level spells in it costs more than a regular spell book of the same. But 100 5th level spells....

That's just it. A BBB is worth exactly 12500gp no matter how many spells are in it regardless of their levels. When it's filled to capacity the contents will have been made equal to 12.5gp per spell level. If it's only got 100 first level spells, congratulations, you've got 1st level spells that've cost you 125gp each. That's an extra 25% over what you'd've paid for the mundane spell-book equivalent.

I'm not saying that it's anything less than an awesome item. I'm just saying that it doesn't really make scribing spells truly free.

If you're a geometer though, you can get the cost per spell low enough to be practically free, at least by the time you fill the thing.

[Threadnaught]

A BBB with 100 1st level spells in it costs more than a regular spell book of the same. But 100 5th level spells....

A regular Spellbook has 100 pages and a Spell takes up 1 page per Spell level. You can have up to 20 5th level Spells in a standard Spellboock. Yes, I'm using that rule and yes, it affects the Word Spells.

The BBB is worth 12500gp, when full each Spell level is worth 12.5gp eh?

So that's 1000 pages? Or 100 Spells?


@Kelb, I normally look at your posts and think they make a lot of sense, but you've lost me in that last post. Though the one before that gave me a nice cruel idea, give the Wizard a BBB and count it against their WBL. Though both players each have two stones that don't count against their WBL, these Stones allow them to cast Wish once.
Next time the Druid whines about something though, I'll grant his Wish. :smallamused:

[Kelb_Panthera]

A regular Spellbook has 100 pages and a Spell takes up 1 page per Spell level. You can have up to 20 5th level Spells in a standard Spellboock. Yes, I'm using that rule and yes, it affects the Word Spells.

The BBB is worth 12500gp, when full each Spell level is worth 12.5gp eh?

So that's 1000 pages? Or 100 Spells?


@Kelb, I normally look at your posts and think they make a lot of sense, but you've lost me in that last post. Though the one before that gave me a nice cruel idea, give the Wizard a BBB and count it against their WBL. Though both players each have two stones that don't count against their WBL, these Stones allow them to cast Wish once.
Next time the Druid whines about something though, I'll grant his Wish. :smallamused:

Where'd I lose you? I'd be happy to elaborate.

As for the WBL thing, I've always counted the spellbook, regardless of whether it's magical or not. It's permanent equipment that sees regular use. I am nice enough to subtract the value of the freeby spells for level up from its value though.

[Threadnaught]

Well if the value of the BBB is 12500gp and each Spell level is worth 12.5gp then it contains 1000 pages.
Yep, just found it in the SRD, yep it'll count against the Wizard's WBL, I'll have to let my Wizard make one of those when he *ahem* powers up.

[Slipperychicken]

In fact, scribing the freebies you get at level up into a BBB actually makes all the other spells you add to the book slightly more expensive, though still alot cheaper than they would've been in a normal spell-book.


You don't scribe the freebies into the BBB. You put them in your (free) starter-spellbook.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You don't scribe the freebies into the BBB. You put them in your (free) starter-spellbook.

If you're smart and think about the way the numbers interact, yes.

Not everyone's going to give it the proper thought though. Many people aren't even going to read this thread and will continue to think that this 12500gp item makes something free, because it uses the word free in the description and how the numbers actually work is easily overlooked.

My wizards always have a few staple spells tattooed onto their bodies just in case something happens to the book. I like to try to find a geometer to do it so they don't take up too much room and can be easily concealed.

[Threadnaught]

I've also been charging my Wizard a paltry 10gp per Spell level for buying new ones. I'm going to have to find a way to extract a few 3000gp from him. I'll explain the new cost with the whole powerup thing.

[Slipperychicken]

I'm going to have to find a way to extract a few 3000gp from him.

Taxes? Pickpockets? Guild extortion? Charities? Needy relatives? Someone he cares about needs to pay for a Remove Addiction/Break Enchantment/Wish?



If he accepts a drink from a sketchy motherf***er, and fails his Fort save he's a Wizard of course he'll fail his Fort save, he wakes up the next morning 3,000gp poorer.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I've also been charging my Wizard a paltry 10gp per Spell level for buying new ones. I'm going to have to find a way to extract a few 3000gp from him. I'll explain the new cost with the whole powerup thing.

Oh, ouch. Yeah, I can see where grossly undercharging for new spells could have his versatility a bit higher than expected. Serioulsy though, only 1/10 normal cost?

Remember to own up to the fact you screwed up. IME, just saying, "okay here's the thing; I screwed up. Here's how the actual rules are supposed to work <explanation> so that's how it is going to work from now on," goes over so much better than trying to fix it a little at a time and looking like you're arbitrarily screwing with his character.

I know it's a galling thing to have to do, but admitting mistakes is almost always the better path than trying to cover them up.

[hoverfrog]

I've also been charging my Wizard a paltry 10gp per Spell level for buying new ones. I'm going to have to find a way to extract a few 3000gp from him. I'll explain the new cost with the whole powerup thing.There's nothing wrong with that if money is rare but if it is abundant as it is in most games then you're essentially giving out a lot of free power to one of the most powerful classes in the game.

[Threadnaught]

Well every time I've done something wrong and learned how to do things properly. I explained the mistake to the players, told the Druid (formerly "that ******* Bard") to stfu and applied the fix.

The players so far haven't had any serious adventures, they've been taking odd jobs off the mundane human board, which has a load of mundane jobs such as building and shopkeeping. And the crystal elven board, which requires Read Magic to, well read. This also contains mundane stuff, but has more jobs for their classes and the overall plot. Counting up all currency, the level 5 Wizard has 3286gp, counting the value of goods and equipment, I haven't been counting the value of the Wish Stones (because really, they should be using those by now) and am unsure how much value 27 Spell levels would add to a Spellbook. I can so see the Wizard sinking most of his WBL into learning Spells, while the Druid will sink most of his cash into investing in the Wizard doing stuff.
I do have a horrible feeling that those Wish Stones are gonna haunt me though.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well every time I've done something wrong and learned how to do things properly. I explained the mistake to the players, told the Druid (formerly "that ******* Bard") to stfu and applied the fix.

The players so far haven't had any serious adventures, they've been taking odd jobs off the mundane human board, which has a load of mundane jobs such as building and shopkeeping. And the crystal elven board, which requires Read Magic to, well read. This also contains mundane stuff, but has more jobs for their classes and the overall plot. Counting up all currency, the level 5 Wizard has 3286gp, counting the value of goods and equipment, I haven't been counting the value of the Wish Stones (because really, they should be using those by now) and am unsure how much value 27 Spell levels would add to a Spellbook. I can so see the Wizard sinking most of his WBL into learning Spells, while the Druid will sink most of his cash into investing in the Wizard doing stuff.
I do have a horrible feeling that those Wish Stones are gonna haunt me though.

I don't know exactly what a wish stone is, but the name alone sends chills down my spine.

As for the value of the spells, that's right there in black and white in the PHB; 100gp per spell level. There are ways to mitigate that cost, obviously, but that's the default and probably what your wizard's paying, or rather should be paying.

[Threadnaught]

I don't know exactly what a wish stone is, but the name alone sends chills down my spine.

Think Ring of Three Wishes, without the "Ring". A stone that allows a single casting of Wish. At the moment, they're too awesome to use and both players are waiting for more Tarrasque based adventures. So far they pointed a Pit Fiend toward where it can be found (this is how they earned the first stones) and spoken to it for the Centaur Druids (this is how they got the second stones), the Centaurs and Devils are subject to an uneasy alliance which the party Druid complains about.

[Slipperychicken]

Think Ring of Three Wishes, without the "Ring". A stone that allows a single casting of Wish.

One Wish = [Ring of Three Wishes market price]/3 = 97,950gp/3 = 32,650gp

Custom Magic item Guidelines (Single use item of Wish)= 32,650gp


EDIT: Since your players appear to have functioning brains, they will either a) hold on to those stones till the end of the game without using them, or b) Use them at the most inconvenient time for you, to completely destroy the plot. Never give your players Wishes.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Think Ring of Three Wishes, without the "Ring". A stone that allows a single casting of Wish. At the moment, they're too awesome to use and both players are waiting for more Tarrasque based adventures. So far they pointed a Pit Fiend toward where it can be found (this is how they earned the first stones) and spoken to it for the Centaur Druids (this is how they got the second stones), the Centaurs and Devils are subject to an uneasy alliance which the party Druid complains about.

Holy gamebusters batman!

You must find a way to convince them to use these or otherwise relieve them of their ownership. The very existence of these things is a bad idea.

Worse, you can't say you made a mistake on their legality, so simply taking them away really is just arbitrarily screwing with their characters.

You've really painted yourself into a corner on this one. Good luck.

[hoverfrog]

Anyone who knows about this wishing item will want it. Think of all the good that could be done say the paladin order. Think of how rich it would make me say the thieves guild. How much knowledge could be gained through this item say the mage's college. Everyone will want it, some may even be willing to pay for it.

[Heliomance]

The mage's college won't care, they can just cast Wish themselves.

[hoverfrog]

In which case they don't want such powerful magics in the hands of non-guild members who could cause havoc with poorly worded wishes. Besides which Wish has a huge cost, better to use an item and avoid this cost than pay it yourself.

[only1doug]

Well every time I've done something wrong and learned how to do things properly. I explained the mistake to the players, told the Druid (formerly "that ******* Bard") to stfu and applied the fix.

The players so far haven't had any serious adventures, they've been taking odd jobs off the mundane human board, which has a load of mundane jobs such as building and shopkeeping. And the crystal elven board, which requires Read Magic to, well read. This also contains mundane stuff, but has more jobs for their classes and the overall plot. Counting up all currency, the level 5 Wizard has 3286gp, counting the value of goods and equipment, I haven't been counting the value of the Wish Stones (because really, they should be using those by now) and am unsure how much value 27 Spell levels would add to a Spellbook. I can so see the Wizard sinking most of his WBL into learning Spells, while the Druid will sink most of his cash into investing in the Wizard doing stuff.
I do have a horrible feeling that those Wish Stones are gonna haunt me though.

Count the value of the wish stones toward their wealth by level until such time as they use or sell them, "sorry guys, i'm going to start gimping the loot hauls because you are seriously wealthy, use or lose the wealth stones and we'll go back to having normal treasure distribution".

[HunterOfJello]

You are not being good to your players by giving them items like that, nevermind multiples. You need to read the rules before giving out items. Failing to use the rules properly will only allow your players to get items and abilities they shouldn't, which you will have to take away later. The real problem is players absolutely hate having nice things taken away from them. It's far better to not give a player a One Free Wish item rather than give it, learn the real rules, and then have to take it away.

Since they have those items, you should find a way to force them to use them, but in a manner where they're glad to have had them. Let them overthrow some corrupt government official's secret demonic ruler, but then have that demon's Archfiend boss show up. Give them a situation in which any choice but using their Wishes would cause pretty much all of them to die. That way they can use their Wish and still come out feeling like they accomplished something. It'll be even more effective if you act like you forgot about the Wish items in the first place.

~

FYI: Here's how much a Single Use, Use-Activated item with 1 casting of Wish should cost.

Caster Level 17 (as wizard) x Spell Level 9 x 50 = 7650

Also, 5000 XP (minimum per casting) at 5gp cost per 1 xp = 25000gp

25000 + 7650 = 32650gp

If you want to give your players an item worth around 32,500gp then go for it.

~

Characters shouldn't have an item worth that much until 9th level at a bare minimum (assuming they have that 1 item and are completely naked otherwise). They really shouldn't get one until around 12 or 13. It's fine after 15 or so, but by that point their spellcasters should be able to do so much it shouldn't make a massive difference.


Count the value of the wish stones toward their wealth by level until such time as they use or sell them, "sorry guys, i'm going to start gimping the loot hauls because you are seriously wealthy, use or lose the wealth stones and we'll go back to having normal treasure distribution".

this would be hilarious, even though it'll likely just make them angry

Two items that have 1 Wish each in them is about the same as the entire wealth of an 11th level character.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Count the value of the wish stones toward their wealth by level until such time as they use or sell them, "sorry guys, i'm going to start gimping the loot hauls because you are seriously wealthy, use or lose the wealth stones and we'll go back to having normal treasure distribution".

The problem with this, is that they can just wish up 50,000gp in liquid assets.

It's kind of a d-bag move, but you can remove them from the equation, at least for now, by adding a catch to the triggering of them. Say they won't grant a wish unless it's made in an obscure language, or unless it's made by a telepathic creature (that is a creature that has the telepathy special quality, not someone under the effect of telepathic bond or some such). This essentially turns them, for the time being, into worthless hunks of rock with a strong magical aura.

If they start questing to find an activation method, they've become a plot-hook. Such a search can lead to rumors of the items that might draw would be thieves. If they just sell them off, then the buyer can "take 'em for a ride" and give them far less than they're actually worth or otherwise decieve them into giving them up for more appropriate treasure.

Unfortunately, there is no ideal solution to this problem. It's not going to go down well for somebody, no matter what happens.

come to think of it, do the players know what those stones are? and if so how did they find out?

You might be able to weasel out of this by retconning them into fakes, and making them a legitimate plot-hook.

[hoverfrog]

I still think having a lot of groups out to get the wish stones will force them to use them quickly.

Some plot hooks from having the item:


A demon worshipper wants it to open a gate to hell.
It is part of a greater artifact, the top of a archmage's staff of power. Several groups have other parts and seek to put it together again. A piddling low level party make an easy target. Time to go on the run.
Celestials seek to return the gem to their lord god as it has religious significance.
The gem is required to slay the kraken that is preventing ships from trading along the coast.
It's a fake. Someone has taken the original and substituted this fake. Can they find who took it?

[Threadnaught]

Since your players appear to have functioning brains, they will either a) hold on to those stones till the end of the game without using them, or b) Use them at the most inconvenient time for you, to completely destroy the plot.

Probably A, I've had the idea for the Tarrasque being immune to any effects brought by Wish or Miracle outside of keeping it "dead" since the last campaign. Both players know how much I demand a fun and challenging game for them both.


Holy gamebusters batman!

You must find a way to convince them to use these or otherwise relieve them of their ownership. The very existence of these things is a bad idea.

You've really painted yourself into a corner on this one. Good luck.

Actually, the Druid likes to complain a lot when the game isn't going his way, I've taken to warning him that his next unjustified complaint will lead to his Wish coming true. I don't think he can stay silent for long, since he seems to roll low a lot and I sometimes roll high.
Both are veteran console RPG players so they know when a cool one shot item should never be used, but never when to actually use it.
They are friendly with 4 important NPCs one of whom has invested his inheritance and most of his earnings in the construction of his own castle. I'll have to drop some hints about how having this guy in their debt could be an advantage. As if the Ancestral Weapon he has and powering up the Wizard won't be enough.


Some plot hooks from having the item:


A demon worshipper wants it to open a gate to hell.
It is part of a greater artifact, the top of a archmage's staff of power. Several groups have other parts and seek to put it together again. A piddling low level party make an easy target. Time to go on the run.
Celestials seek to return the gem to their lord god as it has religious significance.
The gem is required to slay the kraken that is preventing ships from trading along the coast.
It's a fake. Someone has taken the original and substituted this fake. Can they find who took it?


The Kraken will be making an appearance a later time they go out to sea. It will be masquerading as the destroyer of worlds, claiming "No power in this world can defeat me." A single stone would snuff out it's life in an instant, if they ask for it. :smallamused:

[Heliomance]

One of my DMs had an idea I rather like for the effects of "I Wish you dead" - 1000 points of damage, split up among as many targets as you like, reflex half.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Probably A, I've had the idea for the Tarrasque being immune to any effects brought by Wish or Miracle outside of keeping it "dead" since the last campaign. Both players know how much I demand a fun and challenging game for them both.



Actually, the Druid likes to complain a lot when the game isn't going his way, I've taken to warning him that his next unjustified complaint will lead to his Wish coming true. I don't think he can stay silent for long, since he seems to roll low a lot and I sometimes roll high.
Both are veteran console RPG players so they know when a cool one shot item should never be used, but never when to actually use it.
They are friendly with 4 important NPCs one of whom has invested his inheritance and most of his earnings in the construction of his own castle. I'll have to drop some hints about how having this guy in their debt could be an advantage. As if the Ancestral Weapon he has and powering up the Wizard won't be enough.



The Kraken will be making an appearance a later time they go out to sea. It will be masquerading as the destroyer of worlds, claiming "No power in this world can defeat me." A single stone would snuff out it's life in an instant, if they ask for it. :smallamused:

If you actually follow through with that on your druid player, expect to hear some choice expletives hurled in your general direction.

As for the kraken thing, if you intend for them to use the wish stone to deal with it, remember two things; foreshadowing and the implantation of ideas are key to these things working how you intend, and even wish isn't a no-save-just-die spell. If the kraken survives, you better have prepared them a way to get away or they're going to end up squid-chow.

[Threadnaught]

That's right Heliomance, that's what my Wish to kill is.

Kelb, there will be no foreshadowing for the players to Wish the Kraken dead, the Kraken will be a mere braggart. Constantly boasting about it's immense power and how "No power in this world can defeat me." My Wizard is likely to say "Including? ...Wish Stone!"
It may claim to be the great destroyer, and that it's immune to any power the world can bring against it, but it's just the base CR12 creature. I see it scaring the players a bit then sending a few worshippers after them, trying to kill them with them running away and at a later point going on another insane rant about it's power. Typical villain stuff.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's right Heliomance, that's what my Wish to kill is.

Kelb, there will be no foreshadowing for the players to Wish the Kraken dead, the Kraken will be a mere braggart. Constantly boasting about it's immense power and how "No power in this world can defeat me." My Wizard is likely to say "Including? ...Wish Stone!"
It may claim to be the great destroyer, and that it's immune to any power the world can bring against it, but it's just the base CR12 creature. I see it scaring the players a bit then sending a few worshippers after them, trying to kill them with them running away and at a later point going on another insane rant about it's power. Typical villain stuff.

You know your players better than I do, but you still may want to have a backup plan just in case. IME, players rarely have the decency to do what you expect.

12 is just the base cr, it may not reflect the true challenge of the creature depending on how you play it. Taking out a single enemy while leaving no corpse or ripping the ship apart from under them are both real possibilities. Nevermind he can dominate the druid's AC if he has one.

[Threadnaught]

You know your players better than I do, but you still may want to have a backup plan just in case. IME, players rarely have the decency to do what you expect.

12 is just the base cr, it may not reflect the true challenge of the creature depending on how you play it. Taking out a single enemy while leaving no corpse or ripping the ship apart from under them are both real possibilities. Nevermind he can dominate the druid's AC if he has one.

The Druid's Companion is a Hawk, so practically useless underwater.

They could kill the Kraken as they are now, considering it's one of those villains who monologues all the time. Even if I make it colossal just for the sake of it being "the almighty kraken" it will still be all talk. A monster with 16CR power level, with an effective CR of 9 based on it's behaviour. It isn't just big on boasting, it's a coward, but when it does have to fight it likes to put on a show. One attack per round or two, no Spell like Abilities, allowing enemies to have the first move just to show off "it's invincibility." If the players accidentally corner it, then I'll let them have a proper fight.
It helps the cowardice that when it fights, it usually has an advantage on it's side, or at least thinks it does. Usually running when it looks like it'll lose, yes it's "that bully" who runs away crying when you break his nose.

He's a contrast to the Tarrasque who as a prisoner of the Druids, is patiently waiting until he can escape without the Druids and Devils being able to stop him. And allows mortals to test their strength against him because he likes a good fight.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The Druid's Companion is a Hawk, so practically useless underwater.

They could kill the Kraken as they are now, considering it's one of those villains who monologues all the time. Even if I make it colossal just for the sake of it being "the almighty kraken" it will still be all talk. A monster with 16CR power level, with an effective CR of 9 based on it's behaviour. It isn't just big on boasting, it's a coward, but when it does have to fight it likes to put on a show. One attack per round or two, no Spell like Abilities, allowing enemies to have the first move just to show off "it's invincibility." If the players accidentally corner it, then I'll let them have a proper fight.
It helps the cowardice that when it fights, it usually has an advantage on it's side, or at least thinks it does. Usually running when it looks like it'll lose, yes it's "that bully" who runs away crying when you break his nose.

He's a contrast to the Tarrasque who as a prisoner of the Druids, is patiently waiting until he can escape without the Druids and Devils being able to stop him. And allows mortals to test their strength against him because he likes a good fight.

Okay I see where you're coming from now. I don't know that I'd give full xp for "defeating" the kraken in that case, but I can see why you're not concerned about a TPK. Just make sure you brush up on the underwater fighting rules if you're reasonably certain the party will end up in the water with it.

[Yuki Akuma]

Wouldn't "I wish you would die" just mimic the highest-level save-or-die spell, but with the DC of a 9th level spell?

Because you know that's what Wish does.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Wouldn't "I wish you would die" just mimic the highest-level save-or-die spell, but with the DC of a 9th level spell?

Because you know that's what Wish does.

DM dependent.

This particular DM, the op that is, has decided that phrasing the wish like that just does a massive burst of HP damage with a save for half.

FWIW, what you've described is how I'd adjudicate that wish.

[Slipperychicken]

I see it scaring the players a bit then sending a few worshippers after them, trying to kill them with them running away and at a later point going on another insane rant about it's power. Typical villain stuff.

Personally, I wouldn't blow my Wish on a loudmouth Kraken. All villains talk big, but they have to back it up, or else they're just another mentally-retarded level 15 Sorcerer.

Save the Wish for a bigger fish.