Dvati advice needed 3.5

[Valdor]

So my DM has approved the race Dvati for me to play and I have ALWAYS wanted to play one. So my problem is how do I build one that will not die right away. so let me get to the facts:

I will be rolling for scores which are these-> 18 17 15 15 14 11
All books are allowed from 3.5 and 3.0
Starting level is 2 and we DO use lvl byoff
This is median op game that is based in a single city with equal amount fighting and roll playing
We have a beguiler, Seer and a rogue already in party
Anything else I will edit in later

So my first thought was another rogue, but that seems too plain and stepping on my buddies toes. I then thought of a Warlock so I can stay out of the fight but am unsure if we both have to focus on a single eldritch blast or if we get our own. So skipping this I though of a scout to stay mobile and get skirmish damage to both guys( that is how it would work right?)

As you can see, I am kinda lost. Can anyone please help me? Any suggestions are welcome or even RPing advice. I will try to answer to question as soon as I can but I worked all night and might end up passing out :smalltongue:

[Darrin]

So my DM has approved the race Dvati for me to play and I have ALWAYS wanted to play one. So my problem is how do I build one that will not die right away.

First, ask your DM how he wants to handle the Dvati's actions. From what I can tell, RAW should be each twin gets its own set of actions. However, that's not entirely accepted. I tried asking the original designer to clarify, and you can see his responses in this post here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7815509&postcount=32).

Second, put that 18 in Constitution and start with a level of Warblade. You only get one "set" of maneuvers to share between the two, but either twin can refresh on your next turn.

Third, do not apply Dragonborn of Bahumat to the Dvati. This will rip a hole into the astral plane, sucking in both twins (kinda like the portable hole/bag of holding thing), your character sheet will turn into carnivorous packing peanuts, and your dice will only roll imaginary numbers.

[The Glyphstone]

My only advice is to put the book down, gently step away, and come back when you're ready to choose a race that actually makes sense, but I don't think that'll work out, so the above poster is worth listening to.

[Diovid]

Set in a single city? Have you looked at the prestige classes, spells, feats, class variants etc from Cityscape and Races of Destiny? Cityscape's class variants can be found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a

With a Beguiler and a Rogue it looks like you're good on sneaky characters. Urban Ranger (either the Cityscape version at the above link or the UA version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rangerVariantUrbanRang er)) might be nice. Maybe Bard going into Urban Savant (Cityscape)?

[Valdor]

First, ask your DM how he wants to handle the Dvati's actions. From what I can tell, RAW should be each twin gets its own set of actions. However, that's not entirely accepted. I tried asking the original designer to clarify, and you can see his responses in this post here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7815509&postcount=32).

Second, put that 18 in Constitution and start with a level of Warblade. You only get one "set" of maneuvers to share between the two, but either twin can refresh on your next turn.

Third, do not apply Dragonborn of Bahumat to the Dvati. This will rip a hole into the astral plane, sucking in both twins (kinda like the portable hole/bag of holding thing), your character sheet will turn into carnivorous packing peanuts, and your dice will only roll imaginary numbers.

Thanks for the reply and upon ready the article (again thank you for the link) I talked to my DM since he is my roommate and said he agrees with the second option. That the twins would get there own set of actions but they need to be the same action (or as the Dragon Compendium states that both twins need to concentrate on the same spell but I am not doing a spellcaster). What happens what you combine Dvati with Dragonborn of Bahumat?

I will also look into a Warblade build. Thanks


Set in a single city? Have you looked at the prestige classes, spells, feats, class variants etc from Cityscape and Races of Destiny? Cityscape's class variants can be found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a

With a Beguiler and a Rogue it looks like you're good on sneaky characters. Urban Ranger (either the Cityscape version at the above link or the UA version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rangerVariantUrbanRang er)) might be nice. Maybe Bard going into Urban Savant (Cityscape)?

I have never read that book either but I will for sure take a look into it when I get a free chance. Thanks

[willpell]

Not having Dragon Compendium, I worked up my own set of rules for the Dvati concept, although I see now that I didn't address all the concerns worth looking at (notably the WBL problem, which makes them lousy as fighters or clerics because they have to buy two suits of armor). The way I dealt with the issue of their actions is to say that if the two Dvati-bodies are doing substantially different things, their actions take a -2 penalty because it's like trying to write different sentences with your left and write hands at the same time (assuming you're ambidextrous). Conversely, if both bodies perform exactly the same action (if they're attacking, it has to be the same target, from the same distance, with the same combat maneuver and everything), they get a +2 bonus, on top of any flanking or the like. If they perform similar but not identical actions (shooting bows from different ranges, picking locks on two differently-designed doors, etc), no bonus or penalty applies.

IMO hit points represent the "life force", not the physical body, and thus Dvati have only one hit point total; any wounds delivered to one body are physically duplicated on the other with no additional harm to their shared soul. This does not mean a Dvati fighter has two sets of five hit points, though; you could beat on one of the bodies for nine hit points and they'd still both be standing, but as soon as either body took the tenth hit point of damage they'd both go into Disabled status, and one more point would make them keel over. They do probably get owned by area attacks (at the very least it's easier to include one or the other of them in an area, and it might be double damage if you hit both bodies, I haven't decided; I'm also unsure whether to call for separate Reflex saves, since Reflex has always been weird compared to the other two saves, where it usually represents a physical evasive action rather than just the ability to resist something), but otherwise they aren't generally any more fragile than any other character with LA +1 (since that character will have fewer HD than his human/elf/kobold/whatever compatriots, at least until acquiring several thousand XP).

[Darrin]

Thanks for the reply and upon ready the article (again thank you for the link) I talked to my DM since he is my roommate and said he agrees with the second option. That the twins would get there own set of actions but they need to be the same action (or as the Dragon Compendium states that both twins need to concentrate on the same spell but I am not doing a spellcaster).


I would strongly recommend talking your DM into reconsidering the third option. Otherwise, if one twin gets separated from the other (falls down a pit trap, gets teleported, planeshifted, etc.), their actions may become incompatable, with one twin having no idea why he suddenly can't take a double-move action, or why he's being forced to make a full attack with no enemy in reach. Then again, this may become obvious once you start playing.



What happens what you combine Dvati with Dragonborn of Bahumat?


All of their racial abilities (which specify how they act together) are removed. I have no idea what would happen... but off the top of my head, I'd probably rule that the Ritual of Rebirth fails unless both twins perform it at the same time, the "Twins" racial ability stays as-is (I may relabel it as a "Seriously Effed-Up Rules Headache Subtype"), and the Echo Attack, Pair Link, and Spell Conductor racial abilities go away.

[Psyren]

ToB is your best bet with a Dvati, and will fill the frontliner gap in your party as well. They share class features but have separate actions. Though they have to concentrate together on spells and SLAs, Ex abilities don't require concentration and thus can be used separately.

I recommend Crusader. With one pool of maneuvers granted but twice the actions, you will burn through your maneuvers granted twice as fast, which means they will refresh twice as fast as well. You'll also have no problem keeping the twins healed that way, which is critical since you have to divide HP rolls between them. Any of the ToB classes will work though, since during slower periods of combat, one twin can recover maneuvers while the other spends them.

As far as the two sets of actions being overpowered thing, remember that you effectively only have half the WBL of other members of the party since you must keep both bodies outfitted separately. That should balance you relative to everyone else since your gear will be that much further behind.

[eggs]

Dvati psions can work very well, with the Share Pain/Vigor/Psicrystal trick to cover their fragile HP. If psionics are ruled to work the same as spells for the purposes of the character's split actions, straight psions lose some effectiveness, but psionic gishes can still use the same tricks and each be individually powerful melee characters.

In either case, the Worldthought Medic (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/worldthought-medic) class (third-party, but often regarded at least as well as WotC's own psionics support) makes the Dvati's HP work almost like any other character's.

[VGLordR2]

You could also try a Dragonfire Adept or an Incarnum user. Both benefit from high Constitution scores, and they are fairly powerful and versatile classes.

[Valdor]

Thanks for all the great advice guys :smallsmile:. It definitely seems like a ToB build will be. The way to go. Though for some reason the WBL drawback never actually occured to me. Is there any good feats or other things that can help mitigate the twins being behind on gear? Also, any roleplaying suggestions?

[Psyren]

Thanks for all the great advice guys :smallsmile:. It definitely seems like a ToB build will be. The way to go. Though for some reason the WBL drawback never actually occured to me. Is there any good feats or other things that can help mitigate the twins being behind on gear? Also, any roleplaying suggestions?

ToB can help with that - for instance, rather than needing a Silver or Holy weapon, you can use Mountain Hammer to bypass DR.

You can also pool party wealth a bit. You're essentially two tanks in one, but one of you dying will leave the party vulnerable, so they have incentive to contribute to your defense, buff you etc.

[Azoth]

Could always go with Swift Hunter build. Double your skirmish damage and be the flanking manuever to any combat. You have both circle the fight from the outside launching arrows like no one's business.

Or even Spellthief could be fun. The casting portion kinda sucks for you, but built in flanking buddy to steal massive amounts of spells/SLAs/resistances. None of it is pretty for tactical enemies. No wizard at level 1 wants to go from fully prepped for the day...down to maybe 1-2 cantrips for the fight. This is provided that they even survive the attacks. For builds like that one though, vexing flanker and the level 1 shadow hand stance that makes flanking a cake walk are icing on your stabity death cake.

[Valdor]

Could always go with Swift Hunter build. Double your skirmish damage and be the flanking manuever to any combat. You have both circle the fight from the outside launching arrows like no one's business.

Or even Spellthief could be fun. The casting portion kinda sucks for you, but built in flanking buddy to steal massive amounts of spells/SLAs/resistances. None of it is pretty for tactical enemies. No wizard at level 1 wants to go from fully prepped for the day...down to maybe 1-2 cantrips for the fight. This is provided that they even survive the attacks. For builds like that one though, vexing flanker and the level 1 shadow hand stance that makes flanking a cake walk are icing on your stabity death cake.

I did think of a Swift Hunter build at first but then I was reminded that my character in the game before this was a swift hunter build so I do not really want to repeat even if the dynamic is considerably different. Thanks though

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd go Crusader starting out, sword-and-board on both, with Martial Spirit. You can Crusader's Strike with one and Stone Power with the other, heal yourself with every attack, and in a few levels they can use maneuvers like Shield Block for each other.

[lunar2]

honestly, any of the "caster but not caster" classes are great for a dvati. incarnum, TOB, binding, etc. anything that has a main ability that is neither a spell nor an SLA. anything with renewable or non expended resources, such as, again, incarnum and TOB are great, too.

[Psyren]

Binding is actually not a good choice; sharing class features means only one vestige (early on) for the two bodies to share. They would also arguably share the 5-round cooldowns, because a Dvati is "one character who occupies two bodies, regardless of the class chosen."

Incarnum would be a nightmare. "The twins gain levels and progress in the same manner as a single creature of another race." Even if each twin gets its own set of chakras (which they should, since they have two bodies), they still have to share essentia between them, which is starved enough on ONE body. They also have to share max soulmelds shaped and # of chakra binds between them. The result would be each one playing more like a gimp fighter with some Incarnum feats than a true meldshaper.

[Kazyan]

Now I'm imagining Dvati twins stranded on opposite planes, who communicate with each other using a complicated code based on redistriduting the essentia in the other's body.

[Psyren]

Now I'm imagining Dvati twins stranded on opposite planes, who communicate with each other using a complicated code based on redistriduting the essentia in the other's body.

Given that their telepathy already works across planes, this seems needlessly complicated :smalltongue:

[Kazyan]

So it's one of those few things that the planes don't cause headaches with. Sorry, AFB. :smallredface:

[animewatcha]

With dvati, would improved toughness actually be useful?

[God Imperror]

If they can flank with each other, some people might say that they are the same character they cannot flank with each other, a devoted defender from sword and fist can be pretty fun.

[Psyren]

With dvati, would improved toughness actually be useful?

It won't be counted twice if that's what you mean, but it will give them more HP, and more HP are never bad. It's still not the best use of a feat though.


If they can flank with each other, some people might say that they are the same character they cannot flank with each other, a devoted defender from sword and fist can be pretty fun.

They are explicitly allowed to flank with each other. Furthermore, they are not considered the same creature when it comes to location (i.e. they can be in different squares, even different places and planes altogether.) All flanking cares about is location.

[God Imperror]

I do agree with you, but...

From the glossary on the PHB

Flank
"To be directly on the other side of a character who is being threatened by another character. A flanking attacker gains a +2 flanking bonus on attack rolls against the defender. A rogue can sneak attack a defender that is flanking."

Even if character and creature are normally interchangeable in the case of the dvati it is specified that a dvati character is two creatures.

So an argument can be made to disallow it.

[Darius Kane]

I do agree with you, but...

From the glossary on the PHB

Flank
"To be directly on the other side of a character who is being threatened by another character. A flanking attacker gains a +2 flanking bonus on attack rolls against the defender. A rogue can sneak attack a defender that is flanking."

Even if character and creature are normally interchangeable in the case of the dvati it is specified that a dvati character is two creatures.

So an argument can be made to disallow it.
Except the Dvati description specifically says that they can flank with each other, and even gives a bonus to flanking.

[animewatcha]

Dvati has specific neiner-ness fineprint for things like flank. It also has a little capable for spellcaster but looks to be mainly warrior-types.

For improved toughness, I was thinking that each twin would get their own 'bonus hitpoint per hit die' like how both benefit from con modifier. To expand on the description in the dragon comp. Each Dvati would have 7 instead of 6 hitpoints.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I do agree with you, but...

From the glossary on the PHB

Flank
"To be directly on the other side of a character who is being threatened by another character. A flanking attacker gains a +2 flanking bonus on attack rolls against the defender. A rogue can sneak attack a defender that is flanking."

Even if character and creature are normally interchangeable in the case of the dvati it is specified that a dvati character is two creatures.

So an argument can be made to disallow it.
That's some very selective quoting there. This is from PHB p153, and appears identically in the SRD:


Flanking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#flanking)

When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.

When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.

Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.

Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.

Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can’t flank an opponent.

The quote you selected does not even appear anywhere in the SRD. This is from the Rules Compendium:

When making a melee attack,
you get a +2 f lanking bonus if
your opponent is threatened by
an ally on the opponent’s opposite
border or opposite corner.
Only a creature that threatens
your foe can help you gain a fl anking
bonus.
When in doubt about whether
two allies flank an opponent,
trace an imaginary line between
the centers of the allies’ spaces.
If the line passes through
opposite borders of the opponent’s
space, including corners
of those borders, then the opponent
is flanked.
With regards to the Dvati specifically, I present the following excerpt from one of their racial traits:


Twins: A "single" dvati is a pair of creatures that
shares a soul....

Two separate creatures can indeed flank a target. It further gives a specific exception (in case one is needed) which automatically overrides any general rules on flanking which would otherwise conflict with it. A pair of Dvati can indeed flank a single target.

[RFLS]

You could, perhaps, pretend to actually be two characters to get more than your technical fair share of wealth =D (I don't actually recommend this unless your party is good about player/character separation)

[Valdor]

Just rereading the Dvati section and it does specifically state that they do count for flanking each other and they even gain additional bonuses. So the specific ruling takes priority over that general rule of flanking. I can see Incarnum being very bad for things in this case.

After reading into ToB alot more it seems like those classes are the way to go. Now will I be able to use two different manuvers by each twin in the same round? Also, will each twin be forced to use the same stance or can I use different stances on each twin?

Darrin- I talked to my DM again and he has agreed to option 3 of what you linked me too. Each twin is fully allowed to to whatever they wish to do in combat unless it is casting a spell. Then the rules in the Dvati race description apply. So now I wont have one twin having a one man mosh pit in the street while his brother is fighting in a bar somewhere

[willpell]

Here's the way I ruled on Incarnum for my campaign:


Meldshaping: Any soulmeld shaped by a dvati appears in the same place on both bodies; any chakra binds are likewise identical, with the two bodies' crown chakras (for instance) being no more separate than the hands chakra of a typical humanoid, which can be accessed through either hand. The two bodies do, however, have independent e pools; anything which adds or removes e to one body automatically affects the other likewise (so it is not possible to abuse a Ring of Essentia Sharing or the like), but the identical quantities of e in the two bodies can be allocated to their soulmelds differently (with the usual penalties on any actions which differ between the two bodies*).

* This refers to my possibly-overcomplected rule on how the single individual operates their two bodies.


Because a dvati has two bodies, it can potentially take two actions for every one action of a normal character, if its two bodies are present in the same location. However, attempting to act independently with both bodies is difficult, akin to trying to hold a pen in each hand and write separate messages (though the dvati are "ambidextrous", and neither body is at a greater disadvantage than the other). Conversely, when a single task is being performed by both dvati, it is substantially easier because of the extra pair of hands, eyes, and so forth which are devoted to the action. As a result, the following modifiers apply to any skill check, ability check, or attack roll that a dvati performs (saving throws are unaffected):
- If both bodies are performing exactly the same action, the check for that action receives a +2 bonus (functionally this is the Aid Another action being performed by the second body, although success in performing this Aid is automatic). This bonus can only be gained if the action would be possible for two persons to perform in concert; thusly two dvati cannot pick a single lock, nor do they gain any benefit on Hide, Jump, Balance and similar checks, which must be performed for each body. However, most Craft, Perform, and Profession checks benefit, as do skills such as Intimidate, Gather Information, Search, Spot, Listen, Spellcraft, Truespeak, most applications of Survival and some of Diplomacy, etc. Purely mental skills such as Knowledges and Autohypnosis cannot gain this bonus, nor can most Intelligence checks. To gain this bonus on an attack roll, the two bodies must be attacking the same target, with the same weapons or lack of weapon, from the same distance and position (eg one archer on a high ledge and the other on the ground would not gain the bonus), and performing the same combat maneuver (attack, full attack, disarm, trip, sunder, etc). The two bodies can flank for each other, and the flanking bonus stacks with the bonus for identical attacks.
- If the two bodies are performing analogous but distinct skill checks, such as simultaneously picking two separate but identical locks, no bonus or penalty applies. This also includes when both are making similar attacks (same combat maneuver with same weapon) on different targets or at different distances from the target.
- If the two bodies are performing completely distinct actions (one is picking a lock while the other breaks down a door, or both are picking locks with significantly different mechanisms), including attacking with different weapons or performing different combat maneuvers, a -2 penalty applies to both attacks.

[Darrin]

After reading into ToB alot more it seems like those classes are the way to go. Now will I be able to use two different manuvers by each twin in the same round?


I'm... not sure. I'd probably start with something like...

The twins share a single pool of readied maneuvers. Either one can meditate or refresh, which makes the new set of readied maneuvers available to the other twin. Under this option, the twins can't use the same maneuver in the same round. They will cycle through their maneuvers faster, but one twin can do something else while the other twin refreshes.

The second option would be:

Both twins know the same maneuvers, but they meditate separately and prepare their own set of readied maneuvers. If you're using the maneuver cards, each twin would have his own "hand". Each twin would be responsible for refreshing their own set of maneuvers. Under this option, both twins could use the same maneuver in the same round.

(The first option seems a bit "fairer" to me, but with a small number of strikes, could be very frustrating. Warblades in particular may run into trouble refreshing, since they're not allowed to use any maneuvers on the turn they refresh. Crusader would refresh automatically, and Swordsages wind up using Adaptive Style, which in this case would probably solve a lot of headaches with Warblade as well.)



Also, will each twin be forced to use the same stance or can I use different stances on each twin?


I'd say each twin gets his own stance. Otherwise, you may run into the "separated/barfight" scenario.

[Psyren]

I support Darrin's first interpretation, which is exactly why I suggested Crusader as the best option for a Dvati. Auto-refreshing maneuvers for offense, healing and beefy(ish) HD for survivability.

The stances shouldn't matter too much. Even if both twins must share the same one, they each get a swift, so you can have the second twin change his if you need a different one.

[lunar2]

@binding. true, they would share the cooldown. but they would both get any passive or at will abilities, which is what i was thinking of.

same goes for incarnum. i would assume they get a single set of soulmelds, essentia, etc., that they both benefit fully from.

[Psyren]

@binding. true, they would share the cooldown. but they would both get any passive or at will abilities, which is what i was thinking of.

That is a good point - there are some vestiges where 1/round abilities would come in handy, like Focalor's lightning strike or Geryon's gaze. Since supernatural abilities don't require concentration, each twin should be able to activate them. So you could end up with twice the lightning, twice the passive/focused gazes etc.

This does limit your choice of vestiges though, since with the cooldown vestiges one twin will always be locked out of that ability. In those cases you'd be no worse off with a different race and thus not using the Dvati to potential.



same goes for incarnum. i would assume they get a single set of soulmelds, essentia, etc., that they both benefit fully from.

I disagree with this interpretation; this would let you shape all soulmelds on and allocate all essentia to one twin, yet have the other share all the benefits. So each one would be able to spit acid, get the same number of natural attacks, open a weekly Gate etc. Functionally, this is no different than giving each one an essentia pool and max number of soulmelds shaped, and merely requiring that they shape and allocate in the same way. In other words, you would be doubling the class features they get, which the text specifically prohibits.

This works for Binders above because both twins are still collectively bound by maximum vestiges bound and cooldowns (for those abilities that have them.) But for each twin to benefit fully from one essentia would be identical to having two essentia.

[lunar2]

that's exactly the same as each twin getting the benefit of, say, the weapon focus feat. that's why dvati get a level adjustment, because they get 2 sets of actions and benefit from most feats and class features twice.

[Psyren]

that's exactly the same as each twin getting the benefit of, say, the weapon focus feat. that's why dvati get a level adjustment, because they get 2 sets of actions and benefit from most feats and class features twice.

But they specifically can't double-dip on limited class features with limited uses. If they have bardic music 3/day, that's 3 uses total rather than 3 per twin. (More accurately, they can't double up on any class features, but it simply doesn't matter with unlimited or constant ones since there is no constraint beyond actions, which each one gets.)

The transcribe this line to Incarnum: "a 3rd-level Dvati Bard Incarnate can use bardic music 3/day would have 3 essentia total, not 3 times essentia for each twin."

[lunar2]

so, we're looking at it from different perspectives. i'm looking at it from the perspective of there is 1 character getting one set of soulmelds/binds/essentia that is usable by either body. so, if the character takes, for example, ankheg breastplate, binds it to the throat, and invests 4 essentia, then both bodies get +6 armor bonus to AC and a line of acid 25 ft. long that deals 6d6 points of damage. the bodies are sharing the abilities granted by a single soulmeld, not getting separate melds, binds and essentia, because there is only 1 character, not 2. or, you could go with the interpretation that each body is actually a separate character, and have them split the essentia, binds, and melds, but then they are actually weaker than an equal class level character, which should be avoided at all costs (you already have a level adjustment, you shouldn't be getting less out of each level, as well).

[Psyren]

All right, I get what you're saying. So if there is just one set of soulmelds chosen, one essentia investment, and one allotment of chakra binds it would make sense.

However, this interpretation goes both ways; it means that if you bind a soulmeld to a chakra, that neither twin can benefit from a magic item in that chakra (without the Split Chakra feat.) It also means that the twins must have the exact same melds shaped, since there is only one set occupying both bodies.

[lunar2]

yeah, that's right. i didn't think about the magic item slot part, but now that you mention it, yes, i agree. as for having the same melds shaped, that was actually part of my original opinion, which is why i was basing the my opinion on both having the benefit of ankheg breastplate.

just like a dvati spellcaster doesn't get to prepare 2 sets of spells, nor would a dvati martial adept get to ready 2 sets of maneuvers (crusaders would get 2 maneuvers granted per round, though, since they get 2 turns a round).

[Psyren]

Thinking about it that way, Dvati meldshapers would gain power slightly under this interpretation thanks to having a second swift.. Say you're a Dvati Totemist flanking a target - you could, as a swift action, throw all your essentia into offense (e.g. Sphinx Claws) and full-attack your flanked target; then, on Twin 2's initiative immediately afterward, full-attack again with the same bonuses, before using swift #2 to move all your essentia back into defense (e.g. Dread Carapace.) This would boost your protection until Twin 1's turn comes around again, when he can repeat.

Alernatively, you could have the twins switch to a ranged attack (like Manticore Belt) to attack at range on their turns, before moving their essentia back into melee melds to take AoOs.

So Incarnum could be a viable path using this reading if you choose your melds wisely.

[lunar2]

yeah, that's true. extra actions are always nice. but again, that's why they have a level adjustment. i would also never allow that level adjustment to be bought off, because extra actions are relevant at all levels.

[willpell]

I disagree with this interpretation; this would let you shape all soulmelds on and allocate all essentia to one twin, yet have the other share all the benefits. ... In other words, you would be doubling the class features they get, which the text specifically prohibits.

This works for Binders above because both twins are still collectively bound by maximum vestiges bound and cooldowns (for those abilities that have them.) But for each twin to benefit fully from one essentia would be identical to having two essentia.

I really don't see why you think these are not analogous. Let's look at a very direct comparison: Binder 5 with Grandmother Huntress vs. Incarnate 5 with Lifebond Vestments (nevermind that the incarnate gets other soulmelds). We'll say that we have Arnie the Aasimar, Tad the Tiefling, and Daniel/Donald the Dvati, so they all have equal level adjustments.

* If Arnie and Tad are both Binders, one can cure a target with Grandmother Huntress while the other attacks, and then the second can cure a target with Grandmother Huntress while the first attacks, performing two healings in five rounds. If Daniel/Donald are Binder, t/he\y can only perform one healing in five rounds. So far so good.

* If Arnie and Tad are both Incarnates, one can cure a target with Lifebond Vestments, then the other can cure a target with Lifebond Vestments; the cooldown here is 1 hour, but that's specific to this particular soulmeld, so maybe it wasn't such a good example but too late now. However, if Daniel/Donald is an Incarnates, t\he/y can only use the soulmeld once in that entire hour.

* With reference to e in the soulmeld, because it's a single soulmeld on two bodies, it doesn't matter that there's twice as much e. Daniel can heal 5 points by touch because his e is elsewhere, while Donald has invested two e and can heal 15 points, but either way the soulmeld is used up for that target and that hour.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems pretty clear to me. The two bodies can only cast one spell, so they can only have one soulmeld if they have the Shape Soulmeld feat, two soulmelds if they have one Incarnate level, and so on up. For the most dramatic option, an Incarnate Weapon, you're getting two swords or axes or whatever, but it's really just one weapon that's in two places at once, being held by two different hands that can swing it in different directions and such, but the two 'separate" weapons are like opposite ends of a four-dimensional quarterstaff that bends in the middle. Each body puts its own e into the weapon by investing, just as it puts its own kinetic energy into the weapon by swinging it. But I'm not aware of any situation where this should be any different than each body using its own caster level for a spell, which would be different if one body had a magic ring which raised the wearer's caster level when he does somatic gestures with that hand - he'd naturally have that body cast the spell.

[Psyren]

@ willpell: We dealt with the misunderstanding several posts back. Right now the only potential balance issue is an extra set of actions to enable some essentia tricks that a lone meldshaper could not pull off, which I believe the LA and the vulnerability of the Dvati (half rolled hp, two bodies to protect) more than cover.

[willpell]

FTR, the homebrew version I described before doesn't suffer the half HP problem; the two bodies share a common HP pool, but dealing half that much damage all to one body won't knock it out. I had wondered whether any "essentia tricks" existed; could you describe one of the less-abstruse ones for me so I know whether I should be worried? (My game is extremely low-op, I tend to reflexively ban anything that even might be a little broken, or at least saddle it with a lot of conditions before allowing it to work.)

[Psyren]

FTR, the homebrew version I described before doesn't suffer the half HP problem; the two bodies share a common HP pool, but dealing half that much damage all to one body won't knock it out. I had wondered whether any "essentia tricks" existed; could you describe one of the less-abstruse ones for me so I know whether I should be worried? (My game is extremely low-op, I tend to reflexively ban anything that even might be a little broken, or at least saddle it with a lot of conditions before allowing it to work.)

I can't speak to your modification specifically as I haven't really read it in-depth. The interaction between basic incarnum and basic Dvati, I already pointed out above, but I can re-outline it here.

1) Essentia is the limited resource of Incarnum from a round-to-round decision-making perspective. Because reallocating essentia is a swift action, it can typically only be done once per round.

2) Combat-oriented soulmelds can generally be classified under two headings - offensive and defensive. A regular incarnum-user must therefore decide on his turn whether to allocate his essentia to offense (making him more likely to hit, but also more vulnerable on the enemy's turn) or defense (less likely to hit, but better protected on the enemy's turn.) This is an oversimplification but I'm trying to keep things high-level.

3) Dvati don't have this limitation. Each twin gets a swift, and they act on the same initiative, so no enemy will be able to strike in between them (barring things like AoOs, readied attacks, contingencies etc.) A Dvati meldshaper would thus be able to, on Twin A's turn, allocate essentia to offense - which both twins get to fully benefit from while attacking, under this interpretation - then after Twin B has attacked, he can reallocate to defense and end their turn. They thus have maximum offense when they can't be attacked, and maximum defense when they can be.

Again, it's not a major issue, not game-breaking etc, but it does obviate one of the balancing factors of Incarnum, making the interaction slightly stronger for the player. YMMV on how much of an issue this is, or even whether it is one at all, I just wanted to point it out since it may not be readily apparent to anyone not familiar with the system.

[willpell]

just wanted to point it out since it may not be readily apparent to anyone not familiar with the system.

Good call on that, then. I personally dislike it, and thus am going with the homebrew I mentioned before, in which the two essentia pools are completely separate - each body allocates separately (using its own swift action for its own e on its "half" of the shared-soul's melds), and its allocations only affect that body. I'll eventually do some more in-depth analysis and see if this breaks anything, but I doubt it will. I don't think I've decided exactly how to handle chakra binds; I can see an argument either way.

[Valdor]

So I ended up going with Warblade as my class and choosing White Raven Defense as my first level feat. I feel the feat will serve me fairly well in beginning levels and since each twin will be able to benefit from it then each will get a +2 total to AC. It also in my opinion fits with the theme of two people that wish to protect each other at all cost. It should be a interesting and fun first session this weekend.

Now I went round and around with my DM but we finally settled on how to run things. While some of the things are not RAW, it is what he ultimately decided.
Dvati can each use a maneuver in the same round but it pulls from the same pool.
When I am able to learn more stances then each twin can use a different stance from each other.
;

The only other problem I am foreseeing is that the other players caught wind of what I was playing and are already OOC saying I will only receive a share as I was one character. I find this pretty unfair that they would do this since I still am effectively playing two characters. Does anyone have a good argument as to why each twin should be treated as a separate person for loot reason?

[willpell]

The only other problem I am foreseeing is that the other players caught wind of what I was playing and are already OOC saying I will only receive a share as I was one character. I find this pretty unfair that they would do this since I still am effectively playing two characters. Does anyone have a good argument as to why each twin should be treated as a separate person for loot reason?

It'll depend on exactly how the rules distinguish between the two characters. You definitely are paying for two suits of armor, you're very probably paying for two Amulets of Health, you likely are paying paying for two healing potions. But if you were actually two characters, you could cast two spells in a round, and thus might want two Metamagic Rods where the Dvati needs only one. That's a corner case and probably doesn't justify reducing the treasure share in and of itself, but there could well be other cases, even if they don't mostly apply to a martial adept.

You could always just propose 1.5 shares as a compromise. This would also work if the party has to take a vote for any reason - the twins get only one vote but it's an automatic tiebreaker (not too helpful if the party has an even number of other characters, unless someone abstains, but very useful of the number of other players is odd).

[Psyren]

So I ended up going with Warblade as my class and choosing White Raven Defense as my first level feat. I feel the feat will serve me fairly well in beginning levels and since each twin will be able to benefit from it then each will get a +2 total to AC. It also in my opinion fits with the theme of two people that wish to protect each other at all cost. It should be a interesting and fun first session this weekend.

Now I went round and around with my DM but we finally settled on how to run things. While some of the things are not RAW, it is what he ultimately decided.
Dvati can each use a maneuver in the same round but it pulls from the same pool.
When I am able to learn more stances then each twin can use a different stance from each other.
;

This is exactly why I suggested Crusader to you. Their maneuvers auto-refresh, so drawing from the same pool actually helps you. A Warblade meanwhile must tie up one twin - and possibly even both, depending on how your DM rules - for one round, to recover.



The only other problem I am foreseeing is that the other players caught wind of what I was playing and are already OOC saying I will only receive a share as I was one character. I find this pretty unfair that they would do this since I still am effectively playing two characters. Does anyone have a good argument as to why each twin should be treated as a separate person for loot reason?

They shouldn't, that's the whole point. You have to outfit and buff them separately (though Spell Conductor can help with the latter.) That's the price you pay for getting to play two characters, especially in a class that can actually do its thing twice per round (instead of only once, if you were playing a caster.)

[Valdor]

This is exactly why I suggested Crusader to you. Their maneuvers auto-refresh, so drawing from the same pool actually helps you. A Warblade meanwhile must tie up one twin - and possibly even both, depending on how your DM rules - for one round, to recover.

Dm has ruled that any one twin can recover the maneuvers. I looked at Crusader and they seemed cool but I went with Warblade for the higher HD and I think better BAB. I will totally play a Crusader in the future though

[Psyren]

Dm has ruled that any one twin can recover the maneuvers.

That's fine, but by RAW, the one twin can't use a maneuver in the same turn that the other one is doing the recovery. (They still count as one character.) That's what you need your DM to rule on.



I looked at Crusader and they seemed cool but I went with Warblade for the higher HD and I think better BAB. I will totally play a Crusader in the future though

Both have full BAB, but you're right about the Warblade's better HD. Still, that only amounts to a 1 HP difference per twin per level.

[Valdor]

That's fine, but by RAW, the one twin can't use a maneuver in the same turn that the other one is doing the recovery. (They still count as one character.) That's what you need your DM to rule on.




Both have full BAB, but you're right about the Warblade's better HD. Still, that only amounts to a 1 HP difference per twin per level.

Ok, thanks for the clarification on the BAB :).

Sorry I wasnt more clear, the DM ruled that I am able to us a maneuver the same round I recover. Says it will even the power level a little more.