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Kadzar
2012-10-18, 10:16 PM
So, as the title says, I'm thinking of running a shonen anime-style game at some point. Most likely PbP and probably using FATE as the system, unless somebody can think of something that would work better.

As to the meat of the thread, I'm trying to think of important features of the game that will make people think "yeah, this is definitely shonen." What I have so far:


Actions should be more likely to happen the more awesome they are
New Powers as the Plot Demands and some occasional Shonen Upgrades
The Power of Friendship should factor heavily in the game
Combat should be able to be resolved in a non-lethal manner without anyone explicitly intending it to be so


So, if you could help me come up with more, that would be appreciated.

Janus
2012-10-18, 10:27 PM
I've heard of one called Big Eyes, Small Mouth that specifically emulates anime, to the point of listing damage for whenever you get angry and your hair bursts into flame.
I don't know anything about the system itself, though.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-18, 10:48 PM
Well, I hear tell that Tenra Bansho Zero (http://tenra-rpg.com/), the translation, will be out in not too long. It's a Japanese RPG that is, effectively, a shounen-RPG-in-a-box. I don't know for sure when it'll be out, though.

FATE would do admirably, just tweak a few things...

Don't use Fate Points as written. Instead, use Awesome Points like in Old School Hack. Players award them to one another when the players do awesome stuff. Awesome Points can then be spent for bonuses.

Awesome Points come from a bowl on the table, and the GM feeds more points into the pool as a price to pay for screwing over the characters, such as bringing a nasty enemy in...or putting them in a ridiculously tight spot.

Kadzar
2012-10-18, 11:07 PM
Don't use Fate Points as written. Instead, use Awesome Points like in Old School Hack. Players award them to one another when the players do awesome stuff. Awesome Points can then be spent for bonuses.

Awesome Points come from a bowl on the table, and the GM feeds more points into the pool as a price to pay for screwing over the characters, such as bringing a nasty enemy in...or putting them in a ridiculously tight spot.

So basically Fate points, but awarded to the group as a whole and distributed as they see fit? It's an interesting idea, though I don't know how well it will work with PbP, which is what I am most likely going to be using.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-19, 12:05 AM
So basically Fate points, but awarded to the group as a whole and distributed as they see fit? It's an interesting idea, though I don't know how well it will work with PbP, which is what I am most likely going to be using.
Sorta but not quite. Awesome Points (stolen from Old School Hack (http://www.oldschoolhack.net)) are awarded by one player to another. The GM doesn't award them. So, they're sorta sitting in a pool, and when someone does something awesome, you can take a point from that pool and give it to that person. They can then burn it later for a bonus.

Though, you're right, PBP might make it challenging.

For shounen anime, you could also change the flavor of compels. Instead of compelling Aspects to make a player suffer a setback, compel an Aspect to raise the stakes of the fight: the consequences of loss are even more bitter now, but in exchange, they're getting fueled with more Fate Points.

The normal Fate Point economy fuels characters through bounce-backs: they take setbacks and then fire back later. Adopting the above change should ideally change it to an escalation economy: they keep going and going and going, making the scope and the potential fallout of the fight bigger and badder, until they burn all their Fate Points to succeed.

Power of Friendship would be easy enough, too: just allow players to invoke their teammates' Aspects. You might even have them all draw from a communal Team Pool, if they're willing enough to work together.

Arbane
2012-10-19, 12:06 AM
At least some character types should get MORE powerful the more beat-up they are, not less.

Dr.Epic
2012-10-19, 12:08 AM
Don't forget blue hair. You gotta have blue hair. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouGottaHaveBlueHair)

Also, at least 75% of the game has to be characters powering up.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-19, 12:26 AM
Also, at least 75% of the game has to be characters powering up.

Heh. Actually, this isn't a staple of a lot of shounen. Fullmetal Alchemist and Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann spring to mind immediately. Powering-up happens in sync with actions, there.

Sith_Happens
2012-10-19, 01:16 AM
Also, at least 75% of the game has to be characters powering up.

That's really just DBZ, actually.

Kitten Champion
2012-10-19, 02:01 AM
Might I suggest looking at Hunter x Hunter for a magic system?

Outside of being the deepest and most diverse of series characterized as shounen, it's the most useful outside of combat. The significance of determination and self-imposed limitations allows for a player to get that power upgrade at their own expense. It also implicitly allows for emotions to equal asskicking.

Xefas
2012-10-19, 02:02 AM
Weirdly - now, hear me out before you dismiss me - I think Dogs in the Vineyard might have the most Shounen Fighting esque conflict mechanics out there.

Specifically, the Escalation and Fallout rules are perfect. Every conflict starts out in a mild, warm-up phase. Wins and losses at this stage don't do a lot to the characters involved, they inflict very little Fallout, but they can still steer the narrative in one direction or another.

If one party doesn't like their loss in the warm-up phase, they can shout "Fine, time to get serious!" and throw in a huge fist-full of new dice that puts them back into the conflict and negates their opponent's victory. A new set of punches and parries and dodges ensues. But, fighting at this level is more risky, and inflicts more Fallout.

Then, if the loser of that phase doesn't like their outcome, they can shout "Sure, I was fighting seriously. But now- it's time to show you my true power!" and throw in another huge fist-full of dice that flings the conflict into disarray again. Fallout is super serious here, so no one is going to take it this far unless they really care about what's at stake.

And then, if the loser of the third phase doesn't like their outcome, they can go into the fourth and final phase, shout "Congratulations! No one has ever seen my true true power!" and throw one last fist-full of dice at the conflict for one final chance, risking terrible consequences for all involved.

Sure, in Dogs, these phases are Talking, Physical, Fighting, and Shooting. You talk, and then you escalate to a physical altercation, they you escalate to inflicting serious bodily harm, and then you escalate to stuffing a gun into their face, but it's the exact same thing as Warm Up, Serious, True Power, Final Form.

Oh, and Fallout? As you get beaten up, you take Fallout. Which are both lasting consequences on your character, and also the game's progression mechanic.

You progress by getting the snot beaten out of you. Winning handily gets you very little, whereas winning at near-death or even losing at near-death gets you lots of stuff. Seems very Shounen Fighting to me. Why do you think they always save the super technique for the very end?

ThiagoMartell
2012-10-19, 02:42 AM
Might I suggest looking at Hunter x Hunter for a magic system?

Outside of being the deepest and most diverse of series characterized as shounen, it's the most useful outside of combat. The significance of determination and self-imposed limitations allows for a player to get that power upgrade at their own expense. It also implicitly allows for emotions to equal asskicking.

This, so much this.

And now that I know Tenra Bansho Zero exists, I can't wait for it to be released :smallsmile:

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-19, 09:41 AM
Weirdly - now, hear me out before you dismiss me - I think Dogs in the Vineyard might have the most Shounen Fighting esque conflict mechanics out there.
*snip*

*jaw drops*

You win a prize for utter brilliance. This needs to be a hack. Seriously. Spirals in the Galaxy?


And now that I know Tenra Bansho Zero exists, I can't wait for it to be released :smallsmile:
I really hope it releases in full soon, so that I can point people to it when I recommend it. I've had the pre-release PDF from the Kickstarter, and all I can say is....this thing is amazing. It's gooshy storytelling over-the-top goodness.

Man on Fire
2012-10-19, 04:52 PM
It really depends on what kind of shonen you want and more importantly, what power-level you want.

If you want sports series shonen or shonen like Claymore or Vinland Saga (before it turned seinen), Savage Worlds is your pick.

if you want game more akin to Bleach, Naruto or One Piece, you should pick up D&D 3.5 and go Gestalt or even tristalt - one side is Tome of Battle, another is something psionic/magical/divine third is whatever you feels like.

If you want shonen like Slayers, again, pick 3.5 or even better, Pathfinder, which has better Monks, Ninjas and Samurais.

If you want more powered games, if you want to go all Devilman, S-CRYEd, Dragon Ball Z, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure or Asura's Wrath, pick up Mutants & Materminds or Exalted.

tbok1992
2012-10-19, 07:31 PM
Mutants and Masterminds seems ideal for a One Piece-styled game, and Exalted is pretty much already Gurren-Lagann-meets-D&D, so there's those.

Kadzar
2012-10-19, 10:31 PM
Well, I don't have much idea of what the game would be like, other than that the players should be wandering around and competing with other people to be able to be called the best at whatever they do; sort of like Pokemon without the Pokemon. So they would be training and fighting (or maybe competing in a non-violent manner) and maybe saving the world occasionally as a side note, though not as a general rule.

ThiagoMartell
2012-10-20, 09:20 AM
I really hope it releases in full soon, so that I can point people to it when I recommend it. I've had the pre-release PDF from the Kickstarter, and all I can say is....this thing is amazing. It's gooshy storytelling over-the-top goodness.
Is the Kickstarter still up? I can't access it until Monday and I really want one of those :smallfrown:

tensai_oni
2012-10-20, 09:50 AM
Tenra Bansho Zero isn't shonen-style. It's every 90s anime, all put together into one huge clusterf***. Which doesn't really work well for anything but itself.

BESM is a dedicated anime system... but the problem is, its mechanics are not really that good. Whatever BESM can do, Mutants and Masterminds can do better. Pick up Mecha and Manga while you're at it. Some of its things are pretty broken, but the shonen-centric martial arts chapter fortunately is not.

ThiagoMartell
2012-10-20, 10:12 AM
BESM is a dedicated anime system... but the problem is, its mechanics are not really that good. Whatever BESM can do, Mutants and Masterminds can do better. Pick up Mecha and Manga while you're at it. Some of its things are pretty broken, but the shonen-centric martial arts chapter fortunately is not.
This, so much this. Tri-Stat by itself is simple and broken and knows so, having one saving grace in that. BESM d20 on the other hand is just a pile of garbage.
Mecha and Manga is pretty good.
Thrash 2.0 is focused on fighting games, but the cooperative narrative part is based on shounen manga. There are two brazilian games that could be useful (Anime RPG and 3D&T) but both are only available in portuguese and Anime RPG is so bad it's horrible.

DarkEternal
2012-10-20, 11:19 AM
I wanted to do a One Piece campaign in 3.5 before. I still think it could work if you basically say that there is no such thing as magic in your campaign setting, and all people basically use maneuvers like people from the Tome of Battle.

The moves would of course have to be homebrewed, as would be the devil fruit powers(the devil fruit would of course be completely random). The devil fruit would basically add one extra school of moves, but would make the use sink like a rock. Since none of my friends ever watched the anime, they would basically be the Strawhat pirates going from island to island and battling various enemies. Alas, real life took the opportunity to ever put this into motion, plus the magic items and stuff would be the hardest probably too pull off.

Arbane
2012-10-20, 03:40 PM
Legends of the Wulin is intended for Wuxia-style kungfu, but one of the designers has been running a very longstanding Shonen Fight Anime set of campaigns using it (and its predecessor, Weapons of the Gods). So that might be worth a look. (You can find the surviving campaign logs on RPG.net - unfortunately, the forums that had the older logs are dead and gone.)

Kitten Champion
2012-10-20, 09:40 PM
I think Anima: Beyond Fantasy would make an excellent system for a Shounen-style game. A lot of room to form a superpower roulette-type system for your players, while being more toned down than Exalted or M&M generally.

Eric Tolle
2012-10-21, 09:33 PM
Shonen anime? You mean like "Touch"? Well I suppose the main requirements will be two characters who are brothers our best friends, one of whom is hard working and professional, the other naturally athletic but lazy (though there's a reason he defers to "little brother"). And of course a girl who acts as a team manager, and whose ability is basically to encourage and comfort the brothers (yeah, she's basically a bard).

The real trick will be finding a system that emulates baseball games. That's really a neglected area of rpgs.

Anyway, baseball, soccer, basketball, tennis...that's pretty much it for shonen anime, except for some late-night TV weirdness directed at otakus. But nobody pays attention to that...

Knaight
2012-10-21, 10:16 PM
Under normal conditions, I would suggest Anima Prime - it focuses on the direct conflicts, it has powerups, powers, and all sorts of Shonen stuff, and it generally works. However, Dogs in the Vineyard is simply a better system for Shonen Anime. Xefas's idea was simply brilliant, and it must be used.

ThiagoMartell
2012-10-21, 10:19 PM
I don't think power-ups are even that prominent in shounen anymore. The best shounen manga around (Hunter x Hunter, One Piece) lacks it completely and others downplay it (Fairy Tail). Xefa's idea is still awesome, though.

Knaight
2012-10-21, 10:26 PM
I don't think power-ups are even that prominent in shounen anymore. The best shounen manga around (Hunter x Hunter, One Piece) lacks it completely and others downplay it (Fairy Tail). Xefa's idea is still awesome, though.

However, people taking successively larger risks, and successively more desperate actions - that would be a part of Shonen. It's a part of the sports series, it's a part of the more violent stuff, so on and so forth. Dogs in the Vineyard handles that perfectly.

ThiagoMartell
2012-10-21, 11:16 PM
However, people taking successively larger risks, and successively more desperate actions - that would be a part of Shonen. It's a part of the sports series, it's a part of the more violent stuff, so on and so forth. Dogs in the Vineyard handles that perfectly.

That's why I said Xefa's idea was still awesome, yeah.

TheOOB
2012-10-22, 03:23 AM
I'm going to get up on a little soap box here, as this is an issue that has irked me for quite some time.

People often refer to Anime as a genre, which I really really don't like. At it's simplest, Anime is simply the Japanese word for animation or cartoons, and at it's most specific, Anime is an art style. While there are several notable tropes that run through many Anime shows, those are mostly just Japanese cultural artifacts and not really the earmarks of a genre.

Anime runs over the entire spectrum of genres. In no way is Ghost in the Shell in the same genre as say Bleach, and Ninja Scroll doesn't even belong in the same realm as Cardcaptor Sakura. Yet they all get lumped under the broad title of "Anime", which does them disservice. I don't lump Schindler's List in the same category as Duck Soup because they're both black and white movies.

IMO, any RPG based around being "Anime" style is crippling themselves right from the get go, because they are focusing on a genre that doesn't exist. Instead figure out what shows you want to base the RPG on, and figure out the core engagement of those shows, why do you like them. You can't pick the art style because RPG's are not about art but characters, plot, and imagination.

And to preempt a counter argument, I know OP said Shonen style Anime game. That's almost as meaningless a title. Once again, Shonen at it's loosest means anything targeted at the young male age group, and at it's most specific means anything similar to what Shonen Jump has even put out, and you'll have trouble convincing me that Rurouni Kenshin and Yu-Gi-Oh! are in the same genre and are similar enough to have a single game system cover them both.

In short, figure out what you're trying to get out of the game, what type of emotions you're trying to convey, and don't lump a ton of genres out there into one.

Anyways, getting off of my soap box, I'd suggest looking at 7th Sea and Legend of the Five Rings. L5R is the best samurai game system I've ever seen, it's a little brutal at times, but it's good to look at anyways. 7th Sea is a pirate-esq themed game where drama is the name of the game, characters are basically immune to death unless intentionally killed, and you get rewarded for being awesome. Want to know the kicker, they are virtually the same game system with minor changes. Great material to study for any would be game designer, as there is a lot to learn about design in those two works.

ThiagoMartell
2012-10-22, 03:55 AM
People often refer to Anime as a genre, which I really really don't like. At it's simplest, Anime is simply the Japanese word for animation or cartoons, and at it's most specific, Anime is an art style. While there are several notable tropes that run through many Anime shows, those are mostly just Japanese cultural artifacts and not really the earmarks of a genre.
Anime is not a genre, it's a media. Shounen anime, however, is a genre. That's what everyone is talking about. There are actually several similarities between Yugi and Kenshin as characters. They are both brains over brawn types and they both have superpowered evil sides, for example. The story structure between both manga is also surprisingly similar - a few small arcs to introduce characters followed by a radical shift in storytelling as a saga begins.
These series are more similar than, say, Dragonlance is to Song of Ice and Fire. And those are quite obviously in the same genre.

However, when the OP mentions shounen anime he is obviously talking about fighting-focused shounen anime.

Man on Fire
2012-10-22, 06:32 AM
Anyways, getting off of my soap box, I'd suggest looking at 7th Sea and Legend of the Five Rings.

NO

People who try to play Legend of the Five Rings like an anime are hated and mocked by all other players because they screw up the climate the system is for. This isn't a game you should play when all you know about feudal Japan comes from anime.

ThiagoMartell
2012-10-22, 06:55 AM
NO

People who try to play Legend of the Five Rings like an anime are hated and mocked by all other players because they screw up the climate the system is for. This isn't a game you should play when all you know about feudal Japan comes from anime.
This, so much this.
I had a guy like this in my L5R group and he was kicked out really fast.

Arbane
2012-10-22, 12:41 PM
This isn't a game you should play when all you know about feudal Japan comes from anime.

Right! It's a game you should play when all you know about Japan comes from Akira Kurosawa movies.

(Seriously, Rokugan has as much in common with feudal Japan as Middle-Earth has in common with medieval Europe.)

Man on Fire
2012-10-22, 02:36 PM
Right! It's a game you should play when all you know about Japan comes from Akira Kurosawa movies.

(Seriously, Rokugan has as much in common with feudal Japan as Middle-Earth has in common with medieval Europe.)

Still, it has even less common with feudal Japan as shown in anime. And especially shonen anime, where number of things they have in common i literally in negative numbers. Ask any L5R fan, they will tell you how much people trying to play it anime style ruin it.

TheOOB
2012-10-23, 03:10 AM
NO

People who try to play Legend of the Five Rings like an anime are hated and mocked by all other players because they screw up the climate the system is for. This isn't a game you should play when all you know about feudal Japan comes from anime.

There was more to that paragraph you didn't quote. I suggested L5R for educational purposes, and note I also suggested 7th Sea. L5R is a brutal rpg steeped in japanese culture, 7th Sea is a high drama fantasy game without a lick of asian culture in it. They sue pretty much the same system. If you're making an RPG based on Anime tropes(which once again, I advise against), there may be some knowledge of value in playing both systems and comparing and contrasting them. Just maybe the game OP is looking for lies somewhere in between.


Anime is not a genre, it's a media. Shounen anime, however, is a genre. That's what everyone is talking about. There are actually several similarities between Yugi and Kenshin as characters. They are both brains over brawn types and they both have superpowered evil sides, for example. The story structure between both manga is also surprisingly similar - a few small arcs to introduce characters followed by a radical shift in storytelling as a saga begins.
These series are more similar than, say, Dragonlance is to Song of Ice and Fire. And those are quite obviously in the same genre.

However, when the OP mentions shounen anime he is obviously talking about fighting-focused shounen anime.

I did mention Shounen anime. It's still an overly broad category that means little. Trigun, Last Exile, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Fullmetal Alchemist, and Dragon Ball Z can all fit into that broad catagory(and all are fighting-focued), but they're core engagement, the emotions they generate, are all very different. A game trying to capture any of those core engagements would likely look very different from one capturing any other.

I believe if you're trying to make an Anime inspired RPG, you should first figure out what you're trying to make. Trying to make something cover too many bases is liable to end up covering none of them. As they say, a bird in hand is worth two in the bush.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-23, 09:12 AM
"Shounen anime" is about as broad as "comic book superheros".

Interestingly, there have been a number of RPGs made for the latter. I see no problem with undertaking to find a system optimized for the former.

Sith_Happens
2012-10-23, 09:32 AM
"Shounen anime" is about as broad as "comic book superheros".

Interestingly, there have been a number of RPGs made for the latter. I see no problem with undertaking to find a system optimized for the former.

Actually, it's probably good to at least specify "Shonen action anime," because the grouping as a whole does include the occasional comedy or slice-of-life series.

Voyd211
2012-10-23, 09:36 AM
I thought of Hellsing, Berserk and Madoka, but then I remembered they're seinen. BUGGER

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-23, 09:40 AM
Actually, it's probably good to at least specify "Shonen action anime," because the grouping as a whole does include the occasional comedy or slice-of-life series.
Good point.

(Other thought..."shounen action anime" is a far more focused genre than, say, "sword and sorcery"...)

ThiagoMartell
2012-10-23, 12:22 PM
I thought of Hellsing, Berserk and Madoka, but then I remembered they're seinen. BUGGER

Isn't Madoka shoujo?

Kitten Champion
2012-10-24, 01:14 AM
Isn't Madoka shoujo?

It's a deconstruction of Mahou Shoujo, Seinen style.


Creating a new setting needs something more than simply fishing through generic tropes, many of which are subverted or averted these days anyways.
Picking a couple of series for inspiration, and then reworking them into something more suitable for an RPG is probably going to be more interesting

Something like, Claymore + Pokemon or Hunter x Hunter + Fairy Tail -- two or more series which create something unique yet familiar when combined.

Sith_Happens
2012-10-24, 04:24 AM
It's a deconstruction of Mahou Shoujo, Seinen style.

Wow, I totally did not know that.

Doorhandle
2012-10-24, 06:25 AM
I wanted to do a One Piece campaign in 3.5 before. I still think it could work if you basically say that there is no such thing as magic in your campaign setting, and all people basically use maneuvers like people from the Tome of Battle.

The moves would of course have to be homebrewed, as would be the devil fruit powers(the devil fruit would of course be completely random). The devil fruit would basically add one extra school of moves, but would make the use sink like a rock. Since none of my friends ever watched the anime, they would basically be the Strawhat pirates going from island to island and battling various enemies. Alas, real life took the opportunity to ever put this into motion, plus the magic items and stuff would be the hardest probably too pull off.


*Ahem.*

PLUG'ED! (http://badkarmagames.com/projects/one-piece-d20/)

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-24, 08:39 AM
Something like, Claymore + Pokemon or Hunter x Hunter + Fairy Tail -- two or more series which create something unique yet familiar when combined.



Something like, Claymore + Pokemon or Hunter x Hunter + Fairy Tail




CLAYMORE + POKEMON


!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ThiagoMartell
2012-10-24, 10:08 AM
It's a deconstruction of Mahou Shoujo, Seinen style.


Blue standing for sarcasm is a forum meme, just thought you should know. :smallsmile:

Yuki Akuma
2012-10-24, 10:13 AM
I don't think power-ups are even that prominent in shounen anymore. The best shounen manga around (Hunter x Hunter, One Piece) lacks it completely and others downplay it (Fairy Tail). Xefa's idea is still awesome, though.

Both of these have protagonists and villains who can power up!

Gon even does an imitation of Super Saiyan 3 at the end of the Chimera Ant Arc (although that was a one-time deal), and Luffy's Gear Second and Gear Third abilities are pretty straight power ups.

Not to mention Chopper's Rumble Ball enhancements, Sanji's Diable Jambe technique...

TheOOB
2012-10-24, 10:29 AM
(Other thought..."shounen action anime" is a far more focused genre than, say, "sword and sorcery"...)

Actually...

Sword and sorcerer implies a setting, that is a medieval to, at latest, Renaissance setting where magic exists along side the mundane. As compared to High Fantasy, Sword and Sorcery also typically has a slightly more "realistic" setting, with more moral ambiguity, and where things like adventures and mages are seen with distrust rather than as heroes.

Shounen action anime on the other hand implies three things. First it implies it's targeted at young males, which doesn't mean all that much. It also means it's animated with an eastern aesthetic, which means nothing in then context of a PnP RPG. All we have left is action, which is an overly generic term.

I think it would be better to figure out what you're trying to make and not use overly broad labels. A Dragon Ball Z game would be Over the Top Fantasy Martial Arts, not Sounen Anime. Fullmetal Alchemist would be a Low Fantasy Steampunk game, not a Sounen Anime game.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-24, 11:07 AM
Actually...

Sword and sorcerer implies a setting, that is a medieval to, at latest, Renaissance setting where magic exists along side the mundane. As compared to High Fantasy, Sword and Sorcery also typically has a slightly more "realistic" setting, with more moral ambiguity, and where things like adventures and mages are seen with distrust rather than as heroes.

Shounen action anime on the other hand implies three things. First it implies it's targeted at young males, which doesn't mean all that much. It also means it's animated with an eastern aesthetic, which means nothing in then context of a PnP RPG. All we have left is action, which is an overly generic term.

I think it would be better to figure out what you're trying to make and not use overly broad labels. A Dragon Ball Z game would be Over the Top Fantasy Martial Arts, not Sounen Anime. Fullmetal Alchemist would be a Low Fantasy Steampunk game, not a Sounen Anime game.
Shounen is defined not by setting but by themes, motifs, and a common plot progression. TTGL, FMA, and Trigun all follow the same basic plot progression of a youthful protagonist facing ever-increasing adversaries, generally pitting optimism against cynicism.

That's focused enough to build a game around. It's just a parallel consideration. "Shounen" may be setting-agnostic, but that doesn't make it a nebulous term.

ThiagoMartell
2012-10-24, 11:25 AM
Both of these have protagonists and villains who can power up!
I disagree.


Gon even does an imitation of Super Saiyan 3 at the end of the Chimera Ant Arc (although that was a one-time deal)
And that was pretty much the only type it ever happened, aside from the odd chimera villain.

and Luffy's Gear Second and Gear Third abilities are pretty straight power ups.
Both Second and Third Gears are more like dangerous forbidden techniques (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DangerousForbiddenTechnique) than straight power ups.


Not to mention Chopper's Rumble Ball enhancements, Sanji's Diable Jambe technique...
If Rumble Ball is a power up, I'm guessing all werewolves have power ups as well? A transformation is not necessarily a power up, it just means you transform. Diable Jambe is a flaming kick, I can't see that as a power up as well (unless you mean Ken's Shouryuken is a power up, or that using flaming arrows is a power up).
By "power up", I mean DBZ-style super modes, which are actually more prominent in the mahou shoujo genre than in fighting manga.

Kitten Champion
2012-10-24, 04:38 PM
Blue standing for sarcasm is a forum meme, just thought you should know. :smallsmile:

*Sigh* of course it is, and of course, I'm colourblind.


Ideally a "power up" is something justified by both the narrative and the world's magic/super ability system mechanics.

Nen users in Hunter x Hunter were established to have an increase in effectiveness via significant self-imposed conditions -- this is why I think its wonderful for roleplaying purposes. Certainly there's the possibility to throw away your life and multiply your strength considerably in the process like Gon did, but you're not going to get out of the bargain at the end. Nor is a sacrificial last-stand something you can just pull out the moment you feel over-matched. Nen rewards bold and dynamic personalities willing to incur risk for greater gain, who strive to meet their goals with absolute resolve.

Devil Fruit powers never increases, merely the way the user approaches them can become more imaginative and effective. This is what makes them interesting, how that creativity is potentially more important than what Devil Fruit you've happened to eat.

Sutremaine
2012-10-26, 02:04 AM
Shounen is defined not by setting but by themes, motifs, and a common plot progression. TTGL, FMA, and Trigun all follow the same basic plot progression of a youthful protagonist facing ever-increasing adversaries, generally pitting optimism against cynicism.
Putting it like that makes me think more 'Star Wars' than 'shounen'.

Voyd211
2012-10-26, 06:36 AM
Even shounen series can be highly different from each other.

Evangelion, Lucky Star and Bobobo-Bo Bo-bobo are all shounen series. The first is so dark it's mistaken for seinen, the second is a slice of life, the third is an over-the-top surreal action-comedy. Same demographic, insanely different subject matter.

... Great, and now my mind has wandered into Bobobo/Madoka crossovers. How does this happen?

Sith_Happens
2012-10-26, 07:04 AM
Even shounen series can be highly different from each other.

Evangelion, Lucky Star and Bobobo-Bo Bo-bobo are all shounen series. The first is so dark it's mistaken for seinen, the second is a slice of life, the third is an over-the-top surreal action-comedy. Same demographic, insanely different subject matter.

That's why I wanted to narrow it down to the so-called "fighting series." They're the most identifiable genre as well as the one the OP specifically means, and while otherwise quite broad they tend to strongly share certain thematic elements.


... Great, and now my mind has wandered into Bobobo/Madoka crossovers. How does this happen?

You're a horrble person and I would so watch that.:smalltongue:

Voyd211
2012-10-26, 07:10 AM
BEAUTY AS PUELLA MAGI *insert thread-derailing tangent about the subject"

In any case, I think Bobobo actually qualifies as a Shounen Fighting series. It IS a parody of Fist of the North Star, after all.

ThiagoMartell
2012-11-14, 11:23 PM
I'm working on a similar system, so I have some advice:
- Keep combat tactical, not completely narrative.
The best shounen action series have combat as a main element. The most rewarding among those are when combat is consistent and tactical. How you do that is up to you - tactical positioning, reactions, some rock-paper-scissor component for maneuvers.
- Use the power of emotions
Allow characters to draw on the power of their emotions. In my game, I have the Power of Friendship, Power of Love and Power of Rage. Each time you use it, you gain a bonus to your rolls. It costs Conviction to use those, in my game, but you could do something different (such as restricting it by once a game or somesuch).
- Allow for cooperative storytelling
Almost all modern systems have means for the players to jump into the narrative and take control. Action points, hero points, plot points, you name it. Use a system like this, tailored to bring shounen action tropes into life. Allow players to spend points to declare a duel (and no one can interfere), to survive from certain death (if you have death rules at all), to come up with a new attack and so on so forth.
- Don't make it be exclusively about combat
As much as combat is important in action series, you need other strong elements. A good conflict resolution engine is always required for any game, but you should think about what you want your system to do well.
Do you want advanced social interaction? You might use a intrigue system, such as that found on Song of Ice and Fire and Burning Wheel and/or a relationship system like Mecha & Manga and Bliss Stage.
Do you want chases and movement to be exciting and interesting? Borrow from racing board games, from the Pathfinder chase rules and try not to be very tactical about it - just make stuff up, it's supposed to be fast.
Do you want mysteries and investigation? Build your skill list to make that important, provide starting clues easily, keep a framework for mysteries.
Don't try to do everything
A genre system should not cover everything. That's what generic systems do. If you don't want your game to bother about something, don't include rules for it. A Dragonball game is pretty much just combat, a Darker Than Black game should have good stealth rules, a Neon Genesis Evangelion game should have mechanics for mental breakdown. Narrow it down. Your game does not have to cover eveything - we already have generic (and anime-inspired, even) games for that. Stick to your main guns.

Darius Kane
2012-11-16, 12:13 AM
Evangelion, Lucky Star and Bobobo-Bo Bo-bobo are all shounen series. The first is so dark it's mistaken for seinen, the second is a slice of life, the third is an over-the-top surreal action-comedy. Same demographic, insanely different subject matter.
:smallconfused:

ThiagoMartell
2012-11-16, 12:39 AM
:smallconfused:

Lucky Star is a slice of life shounen series publised in Shounen Ace. Maybe you confused it with something else?

I recently discored Ah! Megami-sama! is seinen and it surprised the hell out of me. It just feels like shoujo. Honey and Clover felt very much like seinen to me, but it's jousei. Live and learn, I guess.

Darius Kane
2012-11-16, 01:02 AM
Lucky Star is a slice of life shounen series publised in Shounen Ace. Maybe you confused it with something else?
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs30/i/2008/179/9/a/konata_by_DeathPrinnces.jpg
:smallconfused:

ThiagoMartell
2012-11-16, 01:26 AM
Yeah, Darius, that Lucky Star is definitely a shounen series. As mentioned before, it's published in Shounen Ace.
Unless you're confused about something else. Words would probably help. :smallsmile:

Darius Kane
2012-11-16, 02:11 PM
I don't consider it a shounen series. It's seinen.

ThiagoMartell
2012-11-16, 11:47 PM
I don't consider it a shounen series. It's seinen.
Shounen is the target demographic. It's published in a shounen magazine. Something being shounen doesn't it mean it is childish compared to seinen, it just means it is target at children. Japan has very different standards for that.
For example, Barefoot Gen is shounen. It's about the horrors of war, it's sad and some times depressing, the art is brutal.
Ah! Megami-sama! is seinen. It's a light, sometimes even silly, comedy about relationships.
Lucky Star is published in Shounen Ace. That's a magazine for kids. It is targeted at kids.
Shounen/shoujo/jousei/seinen are not genres, they are target demographics.

Man on Fire
2012-11-17, 06:48 PM
Age-gender cathegories in japan pretty much boil down to what magazine publish you. Death Note has all bearings of Seinen, yet it's shonen because, well, it ran in Shonen Jump.