Crocodile Deathroll Issue

[gr8artist]

So, I'm playing a Druid with a Crocodile companion in Pathfinder and my DM and I have been at odds trying to interpret the Grab and Deathroll abilities the Crocodile has.

The issue is, if my Croc starts a turn grappling an opponent and succeeds his Grapple Check, does the Croc have the option to deal Bite damage from the Grab ability, another Bite damage for the Deathroll ability, and have the option to deal a third Bite damage as per the grapple rules to complete an entire action?

My DM claims this is not correct and way too powerful, but I believe the above scenario is the intended function of the Croc.

We cannot figure out if the abilities Grab and Deathroll add additional damage or not, as both their descriptions are not entirely clear when and if damage is dealt. I have bolded the parts of the ability descriptions that are causing us issue below. Thank you for your responses!

Deathroll
When grappling a foe of its size or smaller, a crocodile can perform a death roll upon making a successful grapple check. As it clings to its foe, it tucks in its legs and rolls rapidly, twisting and wrenching its victim. The crocodile inflicts its bite damage and knocks the creature prone. If successful, the crocodile maintains its grapple.

Grab (Ex)
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line.

The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.

A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).

Creatures with grab receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.

Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature’s Special Attacks line.

[Grollub]

I would read those as :

If the croc starts the turn in a grapple.. it can do the bite damage + deathroll damage, while maintaining the grapple.

I don't think you can get the 3rd bite damage in, as you already have a hold of the person.

[TuggyNE]

Round 1: Bite hits, take bite damage, start grapple.
Round 2...: Take Death Roll damage upon grapple check, made as a standard action.

On the first round you simply don't have enough actions to do a death roll.

[Cranthis]

Your dm lets your crocodile death roll, when it isnt in water?

[gr8artist]

Round 1: Bite hits, take bite damage, start grapple.
Round 2...: Take Death Roll damage upon grapple check, made as a standard action.

On the first round you simply don't have enough actions to do a death roll.

Yes, that is correct. The issue is with the second turn after he already has the opponent grappled, not the turn in which the grapple took place.

And there's no indication the Deathroll requires a standard action, only that it takes place immediately after succeeding the initial grapple check. Afterwards, it is my understanding that I can then spend the remaining part of my standard action to deal natural weapon damage (unless I'm totally dead wrong, which is what I'm hoping this thread will help clarify).

Also, any comment on if Grab deals damage if the monster does not have constrict? The highlighted portion of the grab description I posted in my opening post suggests it might.

[gr8artist]

Your dm lets your crocodile death roll, when it isnt in water?

There's nothing anywhere in the crocodile's description that says it has to be anywhere near water to survive or perform any of its abilities.

[ThirdEmperor]

Well, yes and no. You don't get triple bite damage each round, but you do get double.

Round 1: Use Bite, if you hit you deal normal damage plus you get a free Grapple roll. If that succeeds, you can immediately use Death Roll to deal Bite damage again.

Subsequent Rounds: Every time you win a Grapple check to maintain you get to deal Bite damage, plus use Death Roll to deal out a second dose of Bite. Sadly, what you don't get to do is make another Grapple roll every time you deal Bite damage, otherwise you could insta-kill anything you could Grapple.:smalltongue:

[TuggyNE]

Well, yes and no. You don't get triple bite damage each round, but you do get double.

Round 1: Use Bite, if you hit you deal normal damage plus you get a free Grapple roll. If that succeeds, you can immediately use Death Roll to deal Bite damage again.

Subsequent Rounds: Every time you win a Grapple check to maintain you get to deal Bite damage, plus use Death Roll to deal out a second dose of Bite.

Actually, never mind my earlier post, this is correct.

(There is, however, no reason whatsoever to assume Grab can do extra damage automatically; that's explicitly what Constrict is for, and a crocodile doesn't have Constrict.)

So, essentially this looks like the crocodile biting a victim, then rolling over and tearing at it, and subsequently reclenching its jaws and rolling over again for more tearing. Seems reasonable enough.

[gr8artist]

Here's my current understanding.

Round 1, Crocodile attempts to destroy Mr. Squishy.
Crocodile makes bite attack (and hits). Crocodile makes free check to initiate a grapple, because he has "grab" (and succeeds).
I don't think Deathroll works on the first round. Constrict specifically states that it deals damage on the initial check, Deathroll does not. Ergo, no deathroll on round 1.
Round 1 (standard action): Bite (hits, 1d8+4), Starts grapple (+11)

Round 2, the Crocodile has a creature in its jaws. They didn't escape, so now it has a +5 on checks to maintain the grapple. Grab states that on subsequent rounds, a successful grapple check "automatically" deals the damage of the attack that started the grapple. And because it is succeeding a grapple check, it gets to either move, pin, or damage. Also, upon making a successful grapple, the crocodile gets to perform a deathroll (which deals a little more damage and knocks prone.)
Round 2 (standard): Checks grapple (+16), Automatic bite (1d8+4), Automatic deathroll (1d8+6 and prone), and Grappler's choice (move, pin, or damage [1d8+4])

Now, that seems like a little much. (3d8+14 is KO for 4th level PC's/ death for 3rd)
I think, perhaps, that the deathroll is a special replacement for the grappler's choice damage. Makes sense to me, since it deals more damage and causes a nasty status.
That makes round 2: Checks grapple (+16), Automatic bite (1d8+4), and Grappler's choice (move, pin, damage [1d8+4], or deathroll [1d8+6 and prone])

[gr8artist]

Well, yes and no. You don't get triple bite damage each round, but you do get double.

Round 1: Use Bite, if you hit you deal normal damage plus you get a free Grapple roll. If that succeeds, you can immediately use Death Roll to deal Bite damage again.

Subsequent Rounds: Every time you win a Grapple check to maintain you get to deal Bite damage, plus use Death Roll to deal out a second dose of Bite. Sadly, what you don't get to do is make another Grapple roll every time you deal Bite damage, otherwise you could insta-kill anything you could Grapple.:smalltongue:
Question: What ability lets you do this? And what happens to the grappler's choice (move, pin, damage, etc.)?

[Deophaun]

Now, that seems like a little much. (3d8+14 is KO for 4th level PC's/ death for 3rd)
I think, perhaps, that the deathroll is a special replacement for the grappler's choice damage. Makes sense to me, since it deals more damage and causes a nasty status.
This seems like a good reading of RAI to me, because there's a sentence that simply makes no sense at the end if this is not the case:

If successful, the crocodile maintains its grapple.
Up until this point, the deathroll mechanic is presented as being auto-hit after your normal grapple check. However, now we're being told "if successful." That sentence only makes sense if the grapple check is for the exclusive purpose of initiating deathroll, replacing the standard grapple check.

[Deth Muncher]

There's nothing anywhere in the crocodile's description that says it has to be anywhere near water to survive or perform any of its abilities.

This is a grievous RAW/RAI discrepancy, and if you're really trying to argue for using Deathroll on land, you're bad and you should feel bad. [/zoidberg]

Also, while it doesn't say that it needs to be near water to survive, it DOES say that their environment is warm rivers and marshes, their description says they live in rivers and marshes, specifically states that their preferred hunting method is by waiting near the water's edge to drag unsuspecting animals in.

I'm sorry, this just really peeves me.

Re: Your question, I'm with ThirdEmperor.

[gr8artist]

Eh, I ended up telling him that I wasn't concerned about the crocodile needing to live in water, or stay in water a lot, since we have access to the "create water" spell.
As for the deathroll needing to be used only in water, I figure a crocodile can thrash and twist on land without too much difficulty.
We might go back and give the croc bonuses in water, and penalties on land, but that's not so much the point for this thread.

[The Random NPC]

This is a grievous RAW/RAI discrepancy, and if you're really trying to argue for using Deathroll on land, you're bad and you should feel bad. [/zoidberg]

Crocodiles can and will deathroll on land, see this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZhHHVsAnI4) video at 1:20 for proof.
I believe ThirdEmperor has the right of it.

[Deth Muncher]

Crocodiles can and will deathroll on land, see this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZhHHVsAnI4) video at 1:20 for proof.
I believe ThirdEmperor has the right of it.

I...wow. I humbly retract my statement, having been presented with evidence to the contrary. Sorry about that.

On the upswing, though, now you've got a really great visual in your head for when the croc actually does this!