best summoning spell for first level?

[lunar2]

summon undead, summon monster, and summon nature's ally all have a duration of 1 round/level. mount, on the other hand, has a duration of 2 hours/level. does the massive duration increase make up for the fact that the creature you are summoning is so much weaker? even if the horse can't do much in combat, it is still an extra (large) creature, which can soak up some damage or provide a flank.

[Invader]

There might be rules about the feasability of a regular summoned horse being trained for combat. Keep in mind as well, you have to be able to communicate with the horse to actually get it to do anything. You can't just summon it and expect a horse to know how to flank.

[zlefin]

given that the horse is noncombatant; i don't think you could get it to soak more than one hit; it serves you, but it's not dominated or anything, as soon as it's hurt, it will run i'd say (your dm may vary); and it might just run at nearby combat, as a non-wartrained horse is prone to do.

with an acf you can get
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#skeletalMinion


nothing else comes to mind for good level 1 summoning candidates.

[Invader]

In fact is specifically says in both the description for a light horse and a pony that if they're not trained for war they use their hooves for running away and not attacking so I'd say no it wouldn't really work.

[lunar2]

but summoned creatures obey you to the best of their ability. a summoned horse, regardless of personality or training, will not run if you direct it to attack. even if you can't tell it to flank, the melee can still move to flank.

[Invader]

but summoned creatures obey you to the best of their ability. a summoned horse, regardless of personality or training, will not run if you direct it to attack. even if you can't tell it to flank, the melee can still move to flank.

Except you're ignoring a few rules:

You can't direct it to attack without speak with animals spell or something similar.

Yes a summoned creature obeys you to the best of its ability but in this case it's ability is limited to being a mount. It doesn't have an inherent ability to fight in combat.

The rules specifically states if it's not trained for combat it runs away.

To get a flanking bonus the monster has to be threatened on opposing squares. Even if you could maneuver around the horse for the bonus, just having it standing there doesn't neccesarily provide a flanking bonus.

[blazinghand]

This question came up in my group, and here's how the DM ruled it:

The Horse sees you as its owner, but otherwise is not trained for combat. You can use Handle Animal to make it fight:


“Push” an Animal
To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn’t know but is physically capable of performing.

Because the Light Horse doesn't know Attack, it won't do so unless Pushed. Pushing an animal is a DC 25 handle animal check that takes a full-round action.

[ericgrau]

Summon monster I gives creatures that attack to the best of their ability. A mount "serves willingly and well".

The general summoning rules only say "A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate." and nothing about control.

The general conjuration rules only say "Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands."

You could try to interpret "willingly and well" as doing whatever you please but I'd say a better interpretation is that it serves as a loyal horse would, which does not include fighting unless it's a warhorse.

[Gavinfoxx]

Summon Dire Hawk is 2nd level... :(

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Greenbound Summoning with Summon Nature's Ally I.

Get a Greenbound Dire Rat which spends its one round duration using its Wall of Thorns spell-like ability, which creates a 10-ft. cube or two 10x5 areas on top of opponents that lasts 10 minutes.

If you also have Ashbound then the summon lasts twice as long, and it can also use its Entangle spell-like ability or just attack something.

[Slipperychicken]

If PF material is on the table, the Summoner's Summon Monster SLA lasts for minutes/level and is usable as a Standard Action. 10 rounds of SM1 for one Standard action isn't too shabby.

[hex0]

Human with flaws: Ashbound, Greenbound, Spell Focus: Conjuration, and Augment Summoning. :smallbiggrin:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Certainly not at first level, but by about 3rd or so you could afford the scrolls necessary to pull off a lesser planar binding. Calling beats summoning any day of the week.

Remember though, always call responsibly. DMG's to the head aren't fun when you use calling spells to break the game.

[watchwood]

At first level? Use Colour Spray, or similar spells which are practically nukes at low level combat.

[Deophaun]

A cleric with the summoning domain can get his summons to last for 3 rounds at first level.

[lunar2]

nothing in the horse entry states that it runs from combat. all that is stated is that it treats its hooves as secondary weapons because it doesn't normally fight with them.


A horse not trained for war does not normally use its hooves to attack. Its hoof attack is treated as a secondary attack and adds only half the horse’s Strength bonus to damage. (These secondary
attacks are noted with an asterisk in the Attack and Full Attack
entries for the heavy horse and the light horse.)

a horse threatens all opponents within 5 ft. of it by RAW. it is considered armed because it has natural weapons. it doesn't matter whether or not those weapons are primary or secondary.


Natural Weapons:Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a
natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks
of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach.

@feats, class features, etc. all that is irrelevant. we are talking about the spell, not the ways to modify the spell. yes, a super optimized summoner can either get game breaking abilities out of their one round summons, or increase the duration of those summons. but this thread is about the spells you can actually cast at level 1, as written.

a summoned horse threatens squares, can soak up a little damage, and can last through multiple combats with a single casting.

even if you can't direct it to attack, you can tell it to heel or come (since we brought up the handle animal skill, a mount would be trained for riding), getting it to follow you into combat, where it will defend itself to the best of its ability, and even attack those that threaten it, because D&D horses are no more cowards than this horse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J95LsygVMaQ

see, the horse didn't run, it attacked, even after the man was down. and i'd bet money that was not a warhorse, or even a regular horse trained for combat. that would have been a normal mount or a pack animal.

[Deophaun]

@feats, class features, etc. all that is irrelevant. we are talking about the spell, not the ways to modify the spell. yes, a super optimized summoner can either get game breaking abilities out of their one round summons, or increase the duration of those summons. but this thread is about the spells you can actually cast at level 1, as written.
As written, those summoning spells benefit from feats, class features, etc. So yes, they are relevant.

It's a bit like asking "what's the best weapon at level 1" and then later declaring feats like exotic weapon proficiency and power attack are irrelevant to the discussion.

[Invader]

nothing in the horse entry states that it runs from combat. all that is stated is that it treats its hooves as secondary weapons because it doesn't normally fight with them.



a horse threatens all opponents within 5 ft. of it by RAW. it is considered armed because it has natural weapons. it doesn't matter whether or not those weapons are primary or secondary.



@feats, class features, etc. all that is irrelevant. we are talking about the spell, not the ways to modify the spell. yes, a super optimized summoner can either get game breaking abilities out of their one round summons, or increase the duration of those summons. but this thread is about the spells you can actually cast at level 1, as written.



a summoned horse threatens squares, can soak up a little damage, and can last through multiple combats with a single casting.

even if you can't direct it to attack, you can tell it to heel or come (since we brought up the handle animal skill, a mount would be trained for riding), getting it to follow you into combat, where it will defend itself to the best of its ability, and even attack those that threaten it, because D&D horses are no more cowards than this horse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J95LsygVMaQ

see, the horse didn't run, it attacked, even after the man was down. and i'd bet money that was not a warhorse, or even a regular horse trained for combat. that would have been a normal mount or a pack animal.

Sorry, the part about running away is limited to the pony not the light horse.

Even if you want to rule that it will work, it takes a spell, a full round action, and a DC 25 handle animal check to get a flanking bonus that if you're lucky will last a round or 2 before its killed.

The video is irrelevant.

1. This is the exception, not the rule. The exception does not dictate the rule.

2. I couldn't find it in the SRD anywhere so it has no bearing on game mechanics.

[Flickerdart]

The best summoning spell at 1st level is Charm Animal. Just find a random badger and convince it to come hang out with you for a little while, fight off some invaders that threaten its territory, it'll be fun.

[lunar2]

the video was just in response to the "horses are cowards" idea that seemed to be floating around. that's simply not true. horses, especially hot blooded (light) horses, can be very aggressive when defending themselves or their herd.

actually, handling an animal is a move action with a DC of 10, 12 if the horse is injured. like i said, if we are bringing in the handle animal skill, then a summoned mount would already be trained with the riding general purpose, which includes the commands come, stay, and heel. it may take a little creative maneuvering, but it is possible to get a horse in a flanking position.

also, with 19 HP, that light horse is going to last longer in melee than most 1st level characters. even a barbar isn't sporting that many HP without some serious (un)optimization.

[Invader]

There's no reason to believe that a summoned horse knows those tricks that associated with the riding special purpose.

If you did than anything you summoned that was able to attack should be assumed to know all the fighting tricks.

Being able to be ridden and specifically well trained for a task is two different things.

[lunar2]

actually, yes, a summoned mount that serves "willingly and well" would need to know how to serve well. either handle animal isn't brought up at all, or the horse knows everything a standard mount you buy at a stable would know. who was the idiot wizard that invented a mount spell that summoned a mount that wasn't trained to be a mount? you are specifically trying to argue for the weakest interpretation of the rules possible, in order to make mount weaker than summon x, when it just isn't.

mount is better than any of the summon x spells, at 1st level. modifications to those spells are irrelevant, because then you aren't comparing "mount" to "summon x", you are comparing mount to "summon x + extra stuff". a light horse for 2 rounds is better than any creature on any summon x 1 list for 1 round.

and why are we even debating whether or not the mount needs to be handled or pushed anyway? on the turn it's summoned it can already be where it needs to be to get the flank. it will outlast any member of the party with those 19 HP. even if it just stands there, it still gives more combat benefits than anything on the summon x lists, because they are only there for 1 round, and it is there for multiple rounds.

[Invader]

actually, yes, a summoned mount that serves "willingly and well" would need to know how to serve well. either handle animal isn't brought up at all, or the horse knows everything a standard mount you buy at a stable would know. who was the idiot wizard that invented a mount spell that summoned a mount that wasn't trained to be a mount? you are specifically trying to argue for the weakest interpretation of the rules possible, in order to make mount weaker than summon x, when it just isn't.

mount is better than any of the summon x spells, at 1st level. modifications to those spells are irrelevant, because then you aren't comparing "mount" to "summon x", you are comparing mount to "summon x + extra stuff". a light horse for 2 rounds is better than any creature on any summon x 1 list for 1 round.

and why are we even debating whether or not the mount needs to be handled or pushed anyway? on the turn it's summoned it can already be where it needs to be to get the flank. it will outlast any member of the party with those 19 HP. even if it just stands there, it still gives more combat benefits than anything on the summon x lists, because they are only there for 1 round, and it is there for multiple rounds.

And conversely you're arguing for the absolute best scenario to prove your point.

Why would you even ask the original question if you've already made up your mind that the spell behaves exactly the way you want it to and you're not really interested in anyone else's opinion. You've had a dozen people give you their opinion of better spells or reasons why this one isn't as effective as you think it is but you don't seem willing to accept any of them.

The post should have been titled "Mount is the best summoning spell and I don't want any input that might contradict that so please don't post". :smallamused:

[ShriekingDrake]

Greenbound Summoning with Summon Nature's Ally I.

Get a Greenbound Dire Rat which spends its one round duration using its Wall of Thorns spell-like ability, which creates a 10-ft. cube or two 10x5 areas on top of opponents that lasts 10 minutes.

If you also have Ashbound then the summon lasts twice as long, and it can also use its Entangle spell-like ability or just attack something.

I still think this is your likely winner, especially when you get the versatility of the list of creatures summonable.

[lunar2]

And conversely you're arguing for the absolute best scenario to prove your point.

Why would you even ask the original question if you've already made up your mind that the spell behaves exactly the way you want it to and you're not really interested in anyone else's opinion. You've had a dozen people give you their opinion of better spells or reasons why this one isn't as effective as you think it is but you don't seem willing to accept any of them.

The post should have been titled "Mount is the best summoning spell and I don't want any input that might contradict that so please don't post". :smallamused:

actually, no. best case scenario would be combat riding general purpose. then you could just command it to attack. and yes, i catually have shifted my position, if you had paid any attention. i originally thought that all summons obeyed you to the best of their ability. then, when that was pointed out as wrong, and handle animal was brought up, i looked at the most reasonable outcome of that, which is that the horse summoned by the mount spell would have the same basic training as the light horse you buy from the stable. but, then i pointed out that for the first combat, you don't even need that, because you just summon it where you want it to be, the same as any other summon. so that still makes it better than the 1 round duration summon x spells, because you get multiple rounds of combat from the horse, versus one round from the other summons. and even if it isn't very good offensively, it still provides flanking bonuses, it still makes AoOs (for what they're worth), and it still has more HP than anything else you are going to see on the battlefield at level 1.

now yeah, when you hit level 2, the other summons are probably better, but at level 1, mount is best.

@greenbound/ashbound/augment/ etc. again, you are no longer comparing mount to summon x, you are comparing mount to "summon x + something else". spell to spell, mount is better.

[zlefin]

you're wrong lunar, it's as simple as that.
The fact is, as i stated, results will VARY. different GMs will rule differently on to what extent the light horse/mount will flank/take aoos/be difficult to handle/run away.
Some DMs will agree with you, some will let you go further, some won't go as far as you, i'd go considerably less; i'd give it one round of flanking before it flees out of melee range, no aoos, resistant to handle requiring actions; will go near combat if ridden or pushed, but will run if hit, and fight only if cornered (or not, not sure how summoning affects thought processes).
There is no single, clear outcome of what will happen; just a range of plausible interpretations along a spectrum. check with your dm before use.

[Gavinfoxx]

Best summoning spell at first level?

You go to the animal handler and buy some mules or riding dogs...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Looking at the Mount spell, it summons a light horse "to serve you as a mount" and it performs that role willingly and well. The spell itself does not enable you to instruct the mount to do anything apart from serving as a mount for a rider.

Looking at the Ride skill, which spells out what a rider can instruct a mount to do, you can only have a war-trained mount attack in combat. For a light horse as the Mount spell summons, it not only doesn't get to attack, but you have to make a Ride check to control it before you can perform any actions each round.

When the horse summoned by Mount is not serving as a mount, there is nothing indicating that it can take any actions at all. While a horse does threaten squares and can be used to gain flanking bonuses, it doesn't do anything but serve as a mount so it can't be ordered to attack if summoned by that spell. It can't even be instructed to move unless it's being ridden, because it only serves as a mount, and even then you have to make a Ride check to do anything in combat, including ordering it to move.

[Crake]

Greenbound Summoning with Summon Nature's Ally I.

Get a Greenbound Dire Rat which spends its one round duration using its Wall of Thorns spell-like ability, which creates a 10-ft. cube or two 10x5 areas on top of opponents that lasts 10 minutes.

If you also have Ashbound then the summon lasts twice as long, and it can also use its Entangle spell-like ability or just attack something.

"When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire." p173 of the players handbook under the summoning subschool. Those effects would last the duration of the summoned creature and no longer.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire." p173 of the players handbook under the summoning subschool. Those effects would last the duration of the summoned creature and no longer.

They're not casting spells, they're using spell-like abilities. Two completely different things, both covered by completely different rules.

[TuggyNE]

They're not casting spells, they're using spell-like abilities. Two completely different things, both covered by completely different rules.

I have to choke on that one. SLAs work like spells except for certain exceptions; I don't see why that would be one of those exceptions, RAW-wise. (The obvious intention, and even common sense, would be to treat them like spells as well.)

[Seffbasilisk]

Conjure Ice Beast, is the most powerful 1st level summoning spell I've encountered for straight combat. Frostburn.

[Slipperychicken]

"When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire." p173 of the players handbook under the summoning subschool. Those effects would last the duration of the summoned creature and no longer.

That's.. highly bizarre, since spell durations usually have nothing to do with the casters' life or presence. Casters don't have to be on the same plane, or even alive, for their spells to continue functioning. So I have no idea why that would apply to summons...

[TuggyNE]

That's.. highly bizarre, since spell durations usually have nothing to do with the casters' life or presence. Casters don't have to be on the same plane, or even alive, for their spells to continue functioning. So I have no idea why that would apply to summons...

An interesting point; the rules for (summoning)-subschool spells are pretty odd (for example, the largely meaningless "reforms in 24 hours" clause — which pretty much only confuses the fluff implications without affecting crunch much at all).

Seems to me the subschool is a good candidate for ground-up rework.