Tough Challenge Vs Deathtrap

[Ranting Fool]

*Spoiler Warning* For those of you in my group, Voidling, Mortuus, Wraith. This a warning for you to leave this thread now as it contains/may contain spoilers for our up coming games and would ruin them.

Right well that's sorted out. This is a general sort of question about difficulty levels with an example given after the brake.


I've an encounter planned for Sunday that I'm worried may be a tad too tough, I think it'll be fine but was wondering what GiTP think is the right sort of safety net to avoid a Total Party Kill while still giving a challenging and hard fight.

PC's:
Wizard (caster level 10)
Duskblade Level 11 (Greatsword big on smacking things)
Knight/dragon rider 11 (Gone very very tanky, AC 35 min)
Warlock level 11 (Bluff and blaster, always invisible and flying so "doesn't need to spend on higher defense" he's the only one I'm worried about will hate this encounter)
Ranger 11 (DMPC / guide so not very op at all melee)

Quick explanation
The party has gone Lich hunting in a big nasty swamp full of various things, they will get to an ancient temple of "Time and Space" but because they told people where they were going and they loitered about a bit helping out a tribe of lizardmen and other things for ages the assassins who have been hunting the Wizard and his friends have gotten ahead of them

Trap
At some point in the temple near the start they will see a room with a "lich" waiting, inviting them in. This "lich" is a rogue with a lot of disguise and a big cloak.

A detect magic will show a LOT of auras about, the floor is a wall of force with an illusion on it to make it solid. Even the hall outside is part of the same room but careful use of shaped walls of force and illusions.

After 3 people run into the room the trap will be sprung, which will be soon as the PC's will most likely bluff saying they've come to join the lich, have the duskblade teleport forward next to lich then cast Regroup to drag the other melee guys in range to hit the lich very very hard.

When the floor drops who ever is in the room will drop and unless they are far back will drop 30ft into a bit. They will see on either end of this room a Beholder chained up with all it's eyestalks cut off (only the large eye anti magic eye open) the two of them cover the whole room.

There will be 2 Barbarians, 1 monk. 3 Rogues. All level 6 ready to kill the PC's (aiming to gank the two casters before they figure out they have to kill the beholders (who have less HP due to being mutilated already)


Is this too hard?

Other things coming up in this Temple
The Lich they are after, level 12 Favored soul. nothing to do with the trap other then having the beholders in another part of temple and experimenting on them. Who isn't 100% aggressive, will flee if things look bad and won't be ready for them due to being stuck in a paradoxical time loop (Long and valid reason for this that isn't important)

A room/Other really small demi plane which has different time stream, with a very very very large anthropomorphic whale sitting down reading a book, if they talk to him and convince him that they aren't evil he will "open" the way to the escape route that the long dead priests of this temple took... by opening his mouth and telling them to walk in.:smallbiggrin:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unless the PC's think to offer the eye tyrants their freedom in exchange for closing their eyes in very short order, the action economy and the loss of their buffs/magic items will turn your PC's into paste in this encounter.

That's a nasty little death trap if I ever saw one.

I like it. :belkar:


....... my but I've been feeling evil lately.....

[LTwerewolf]

Level 6 enemies might still be too easy imo. Even if you completely neuter the wizard and warlock, and take away the duskblade and ranger's casting, i don't see if being that hard of a fight.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Level 6 enemies might still be too easy imo. Even if you completely neuter the wizard and warlock, and take away the duskblade and ranger's casting, i don't see if being that hard of a fight.

Are you crazy? The wizard and the warlock are pretty much sitting this one out. Two of those rogues can go ginsu on one of the remaining meleers dropping him in no-time. Even if they're not driven close enough to the (presumably starved) beholders to bite, it's still essentially a 2:1 fight, that's very likely to become a 3:1 fight in short order if the rogues double up on somebody.

The warlock's got a good shot at getting away, by not falling into the trap in the first place (yay fell flight), but otherwise this is going to get ugly quick.

[LTwerewolf]

Are you crazy? The wizard and the warlock are pretty much sitting this one out. Two of those rogues can go ginsu on one of the remaining meleers dropping him in no-time. Even if they're not driven close enough to the (presumably starved) beholders to bite, it's still essentially a 2:1 fight, that's very likely to become a 3:1 fight in short order if the rogues double up on somebody.

The warlock's got a good shot at getting away, by not falling into the trap in the first place (yay fell flight), but otherwise this is going to get ugly quick.

But the concern would be more their ability to hit at all. The rogues probably have around a +8 to hit, maybe even less. That means except on a nat. 20 they're not going to be hitting that knight. In fact, the barbarians likely have around a +12 while raging, so they won't be hitting him either. Granted, once they figure that out they'll probably start ignoring him, but an ignored knight can be a real nuisance. If they manage to get themselves into a defensive position, which can be done if they don't just dissolve into chaos the moment the fight starts, then it could turn the fight into a fish in the barrel metaphor on their side and not vice versa.

My group has gotten out of a very similar bind (the field was just a field, not a couple beholders, but same idea) where it was essentially 3 on 9 (our 2 casters got to sit there and look pretty). For a group of players that know their stuff, they could manage their way out of it. Especially if they're rocking some nonmagic utility items.

[Kelb_Panthera]

But the concern would be more their ability to hit at all. The rogues probably have around a +8 to hit, maybe even less. That means except on a nat. 20 they're not going to be hitting that knight. In fact, the barbarians likely have around a +12 while raging, so they won't be hitting him either. Granted, once they figure that out they'll probably start ignoring him, but an ignored knight can be a real nuisance. If they manage to get themselves into a defensive position, which can be done if they don't just dissolve into chaos the moment the fight starts, then it could turn the fight into a fish in the barrel metaphor on their side and not vice versa.

My group has gotten out of a very similar bind (the field was just a field, not a couple beholders, but same idea) where it was essentially 3 on 9 (our 2 casters got to sit there and look pretty). For a group of players that know their stuff, they could manage their way out of it. Especially if they're rocking some nonmagic utility items.

It's very likely that that ac35 is going to take a big hit when his armor and shield become temporarily non-magical, nevermind his necklace of natural armor and ring of protection shutting off.

Let me think what's likely. Full plate is probably a given, that's +8, I'd be surprised if he wasn't sporting a heavy shield for another +2, then the rest is probably magic; something to the effect of +3 each on both the armor and shield as well as the NNA and RoP. If he's got a +1 dex bonus that's exactly ac35 as cheap as it gets. So that's +8 (you forgot the flanking bonus) on the rogues aiming at ac 20 or so. The other two are likely even worse off than this, and that barb is going to hit hard, and reasonably often. The monk's going to be a booger to hit, since at 6 he's likely loosing little to nothing from his ac; 3-ish each from dex and wis, and +1 from class ac bonus makes 17 or so out of the gate.

It's not unsurvivable, but it's going to leave them hurting bad even if they make it.

All of this goes out the window if they can get the beholders to stand down, which shouldn't be too hard. "You've clearly been abused. We'll free you if you keep your eyes closed while we slaughter this trash!" Then it's back to 2:3 with the big difference in overall ability, aka a cake walk.

[Telok]

The only things I noticed are that the ambushers don't have any casters to create the walls of force/illusion and the beholders ought to be suppressing them unless they are hooded or cooperating.

For the fight you're fine. You might want the NPCs to bring some nets and EWP feats for that knight and a couple buffing potions to chase the invisible flying ray gun who might not fall into the trap. I just had four level 7 PCs win a fight with four 7HD initiator humanoids led by a 10HD initiator (ToB, they fight like warblades but can't refresh maneuvers). Mine was a close and tough fight, your will only endanger the wizard and warlock.

Edit: Note that the NPCs have no magic gear in the best case scenario. All the melee ACs will hover in the 15 to 20 range. But the melee PCs have full BAB and MW weapons putting them around +14 to hit. The melee PCs are only threatened by the NPCs focusing fire one them one at a time. Level 6 NPC rogues only have about 30 hp and ~18 AC, they'll die fast and then the only threat is from the barbarians. Although I am assuming that your PCs have 14+ Con scores on the fighty guys.

Of course I don't know what you're doing with that monk in there. He should have around 45 hp and 16 or so AC. But without some sort of neat trick to attack with he isn't any more dangerous than a warrior with a long sword.

[Ranting Fool]

Thanks for the input.

Yes the Knights ac will drop to 21 (8 from Armour, 1 from buckler +2dex) though he almost always likes to fight with +5 ac from combat expertise (losing 5 to hit)

I'm planning on using the NPC's from DMG1, so rather squishy all round.
The caster who set this trap up isn't in this encounter, but there is a reason for that. And these are people who have been trying to deal with the NPC for the better part of 6 months (though the fact that they keep teleporting around the world and a little plane shifting has meant that they couldn't follow them so they had to lay a trap somewhere they think they'll go)

I was hoping they might bull rush the ambushers into the beholders or some such.

I hadn't even THOUGHT that they could make a common cause with the beholders, and yes they are very starved.

The fight is aimed to be a major danger for them but will (if they win) give a lot of answers to questions they (mostly the wizard and warlock) have:smallbiggrin: