Pyrohydra

[Silvanoshei]

Pyrohydra

Huge Magical Beast (Fire)

These reddish hydras can breathe jets of fire 10 feet high, 10 feet wide, and 20 feet long. All heads breathe once every 1d4 rounds. Each jet deals 3d6 points of fire damage per head. A successful Reflex save halves the damage. The save DC is 10 + ½ hydra’s original number of heads + hydra’s Con modifier.

Basically polymorphing into a 12 headed Pyrohydra is a free 432D6 breath attack lol. Nice! :belkar:

[Starbuck_II]

Basically polymorphing into a 12 headed Pyrohydra is a free 432D6 breath attack lol. Nice! :belkar:
You mean Shapechange as breath weapons are Supernatural.

You'd think there should be a polymorph between Polymorph and Shapechange that gives supernatural, but there isn't.

There is debate I've heard that it is 12 3d6 fire breaths or one 36d6 fire breathe.

But yes, it is a decent choice.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Assume Supernatural ability (SS) or Metamorphic transfer (XPH) [you need wis 13 and ML 5 which isn't difficult to get) can get you the breath weapon with polymorph.

[eggs]

There's nothing indicating that each head gets an individual jet, so the 432d6 interpretation seems like a pretty long stretch (especially considering the numbers involved).

[Gavinfoxx]

432D6 breath attack

Surely you mean 12 different 3d6 attacks, or at best, one 36d6 attack?

[Snowbluff]

Cryohydra is a valid form for a Frozen Wildshape Druid. Assume (Su), as mentioned above, for the breathes, and Enhance Wild Shape for the fast healing.

[eggs]

Surely you mean 12 different 3d6 attacks, or at best, one 36d6 attack?
The assertion of this thread is that 12 heads are breathing 1 jet apiece, each of which deals 3d6 per head. 12*12*3d6=432d6

[LanSlyde]

Basically polymorphing into a 12 headed Pyrohydra is a free 432D6 breath attack lol. Nice! :belkar:

Nice try silly. It's actually saying that each head deals 3d6 points of fire damage, not 36d6.

[Silvanoshei]

You mean Shapechange as breath weapons are Supernatural.

You'd think there should be a polymorph between Polymorph and Shapechange that gives supernatural, but there isn't.

There is debate I've heard that it is 12 3d6 fire breaths or one 36d6 fire breathe.

But yes, it is a decent choice.

Er? It's a natural weapon.
Natural Abilities

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

Huge Magical Beast (Fire)
Notice it doesn't say (Su), but (Fire). A Dragon's Breath Weapon has (Su) by it, if that's what you're comparing it too. So, we can conclude, via no (Su), that it is a natural weapon, and does not need Shapechange. :xykon:

[Eldariel]

Breath Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#breathWeapon):
"Breath weapons are supernatural abilities except where noted."

[Starbuck_II]

Er? It's a natural weapon.

Notice it doesn't say (Su), but (Fire). A Dragon's Breath Weapon has (Su) by it, if that's what you're comparing it too. So, we can conclude, via no (Su), that it is a natural weapon, and does not need Shapechange. :xykon:
You Got That Wrong! (or Objection!)

Breath Weapon

A creature attacking with a breath weapon is actually expelling something from its mouth (rather than conjuring it by means of a spell or some other magical effect). Most creatures with breath weapons are limited to a number of uses per day or by a minimum length of time that must pass between uses. Such creatures are usually smart enough to save their breath weapon until they really need it.
•Using a breath weapon is typically a standard action.
•No attack roll is necessary. The breath simply fills its stated area.
•A breath weapon attack usually deals damage and is often based on some type of energy.
•Breath weapons usually allow a Reflex save for half damage (DC 10 + ½ breathing creature’s racial HD + breathing creature’s Con modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). Some breath weapons allow a Fortitude save or a Will save instead of a Reflex save.
•Breath weapons are supernatural abilities except where noted.
•A creature is immune to its own breath weapon unless otherwise noted.
•Creatures unable to breathe can still use breath weapons. (The term is something of a misnomer.)


Unless noted (read spoiler) otherwise Breath Weapons are always supernatural according to Monster rules.

I rest my case.

[Silvanoshei]

Nice try silly. It's actually saying that each head deals 3d6 points of fire damage, not 36d6.

Um, it's challenge rating is 13 yes? A Beholder is much more fearsome than some stupid Pyrohydra that can get it's heads cut off to reduce that damage. Everytime you cut a head off, it goes down a lot.

12 heads 12 breath weapons = 432d6
8 heads 8 breath weapons = 192d6...
4 heads 4 breath weapons = 48d6........ :smallconfused:

As you can see, the monster itself is basically weak without it's heads... which is natural? A beholder can kill you instantly, or try to every turn till you fail your save, lets not forget it can antimagic your whole team. The Pyrohydra does not do 36d6 combined, with Resist Energy at 30? Having a good save nets you half damage.... on average, doing 24-25 damage??????? I think not. It can only do that every 1d4 rounds mind you. In 4 rounds do you seriously think it's going to have it's 12 heads???? I'd hope not, you should die if it does. :xykon:

[lunar2]

yeah, each head contributes 3d6 damage to this one big jet. they don't get separate jets. you could argue that it may only contribute some of its heads to a jet in order to save part of the damage, but it still only breathes one jet at a time.

[eggs]

There's still nothing saying that each head breathes an individual jet. If your argument is founded in that inference seeming like common sense, it's not compelling at all - a 432d6 breath attack very much contradicts common sense, as it is far beyond the capabilities of even epic breath weapons.

[HunterOfJello]

Sounds like a good candidate for the Multiheaded Template. The 12 Headed Pyrohydra could then be a 15 Headed Pyrohydra!


Also, any argument that asserts that a creature outside the Epic Level Handbook has a Breath Weapon with higher damage than a Great Wyrm Force Dragon (CR 59) is considered null and void without overwhelming proof. For reference, that type of dragon's breath weapon is 60d12 Force damage with a DC 72.

~

Also, I need to build a Steel or Mercury Dragon and give it the Multiheaded Template so it can be BLUE EYES ULTIMATE DRAGON!

[Invader]

I don't see how it's interpreted to have more than 12 jets at 3d6 per jet. I've read it a half dozen times and no where do I see 12 heads, plus 12 jets per head x 3d6.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

They're not going to give a CR 13 an ability that deals an average of 756 damage after a successful save. It would one-shot any PC that doesn't have evasion even if they've got Resistance 30, even if they've got Protection from Energy it will completely use it up and still kill them!

Let's look at the wording:
"These reddish hydras can breathe jets of fire 10 feet high, 10 feet wide, and 20 feet long. All heads breathe once every 1d4 rounds."
It breathes one jet of fire at a time, to which every head contributes, once every 1d4 rounds. Since it can happen multiple times it's stated as multiple jets.

"Each jet deals 3d6 points of fire damage per head. A successful Reflex save halves the damage. The save DC is 10 + ½ hydra’s original number of heads + hydra’s Con modifier."

The one jet that it breathes at a time deals 3d6 per contributing head, so a 12-headed hydra deals 36d6 damage, potentially more if its opponents cut off a head and it regrows two.

[TuggyNE]

They're not going to give a CR 13 an ability that deals an average of 756 damage after a successful save. It would one-shot any PC that doesn't have evasion even if they've got Resistance 30, even if they've got Protection from Energy it will completely use it up and still kill them!

Let's look at the wording:
"These reddish hydras can breathe jets of fire 10 feet high, 10 feet wide, and 20 feet long. All heads breathe once every 1d4 rounds."
It breathes one jet of fire at a time, to which every head contributes, once every 1d4 rounds. Since it can happen multiple times it's stated as multiple jets.

"Each jet deals 3d6 points of fire damage per head. A successful Reflex save halves the damage. The save DC is 10 + ½ hydra’s original number of heads + hydra’s Con modifier."

The one jet that it breathes at a time deals 3d6 per contributing head, so a 12-headed hydra deals 36d6 damage, potentially more if its opponents cut off a head and it regrows two.

Quoted in full for sheer correctness.

[Silvanoshei]

These reddish hydras can breathe jets of fire 10 feet high, 10 feet wide, and 20 feet long. All heads breathe once every 1d4 rounds. Each jet deals 3d6 points of fire damage per head. A successful Reflex save halves the damage. The save DC is 10 + ½ hydra’s original number of heads + hydra’s Con modifier. So... we have in bold, jets, meaning multiple, all heads, meaning multiple, each jet, meaning multiple, doing 3d6per head (that formula based on how many are left).

Your math is wrong too. 36d6 is average is 108. A save is half at 54. Resist Energy is 30, so that's 24 damage. Take that times 12 is 288. It's range is only 20 feet long. So every 1d4 rounds, if close enough, could kill you. (Again, you could be invisible or you get first attack and chop 4-8 of it's heads off).

I'm still more scared of the Beholder of same CR that can Disintegrate me after he put me to sleep at 200 feet away EVERY ROUND. lol... :xykon:

[eggs]

A jet one round and another jet 1d4 rounds later makes two jet (plural, meaning multiple, etc.) All heads do breathe, but again, they are not ever attributed different simultaneous jets.

If the goal is to squint until rules look ambiguous, then take them in the most broken possible way, I'm sure Iron Heart Surge and Bestow Curse would give something more interesting to play with.

[danzibr]

All heads breathe once every 1d4 rounds.
That is says "all heads" rather than "every head" makes me think they go all at once. I mean, I see how it can be read either way, that's just how I interpret it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So... we have in bold, jets, meaning multiple, all heads, meaning multiple, each jet, meaning multiple, doing 3d6per head (that formula based on how many are left).

Your math is wrong too. 36d6 is average is 108. A save is half at 54. Resist Energy is 30, so that's 24 damage. Take that times 12 is 288. It's range is only 20 feet long. So every 1d4 rounds, if close enough, could kill you. (Again, you could be invisible or you get first attack and chop 4-8 of it's heads off).

I'm still more scared of the Beholder of same CR that can Disintegrate me after he put me to sleep at 200 feet away EVERY ROUND. lol... :xykon:

The only reason it says jets is because it can happen more than once, since it's once every 1d4 rounds. Only if it could only breathe fire once per day or otherwise once per encounter would it not be plural. That it says jets is absolutely no indication that it gets multiple breaths at once.

The comparison to a Beholder is completely irrelevant, if you make your saves the Beholder does almost nothing. If you make your save versus the hydra's breath it's still an average of 756 damage. Even counting it as 12 separate breaths to which Resistance 30 applies twelve times, that's an average of 126 damage per head, half is 63, for 33 damage after resistance. Assuming you make all twelve saves, you're still taking an average of 396 damage. Assuming you have Protection from Energy as well, that only takes off 120 points, so best-case scenario you're still taking an average of 276 damage in one hit, more than enough to outright kill any level 13 PC.

Since you have to be in melee to sunder its heads, if it rolls low on that 1d4 it can breathe two rounds in a row. That you could sunder some heads to reduce its breath damage is completely irrelevant, it's still going to one-shot every PC in sunder range before the fight is over even after it's lost a few heads.

Again, that it says jets does not even remotely imply that the stated damage is per-head. It just means that the breath attack could happen more than once in a given encounter. It clearly states that the breath attack is performed with all heads, and that it deals 3d6 per contributing head. You may want it to mean something else, but it very obviously does not mean what you want it to.

[Starbuck_II]

The comparison to a Beholder is completely irrelevant, if you make your saves the Beholder does almost nothing. If you make your save versus the hydra's breath it's still an average of 756 damage. Even counting it as 12 separate breaths to which Resistance 30 applies twelve times, that's an average of 126 damage per head, half is 63, for 33 damage after resistance. Assuming you make all twelve saves, you're still taking an average of 396 damage. Assuming you have Protection from Energy as well, that only takes off 120 points, so best-case scenario you're still taking an average of 276 damage in one hit, more than enough to outright kill any level 13 PC.


In your example, are you assuming one 432d6 (you should note which you mean)?

a. Now if it is one 36d6 breath reading, 126 damage on average, saves to 63
or 33 with 30 resistance (or 0 with protection).

b. 12 3d6 breath weapon, 126 damage on average, saves to 63 or 0 with 30 resistance, but more variable saves likely (or 0 with protection).

c. 12 36d6 breaths? Average 1512 damage, or saved 756 (Protection lowers by 120 and Resist 30 lowers by 360 total so resistance is better since they don't stack). Resist 30 means 396.

[Augmental]

b. 12 3d6 breath weapon, 126 damage on average, saves to 63 or 33 with 30 resistance, but more variable saves likely (or 0 with protection).

If it's 12 separate 3d6 breath weapons, wouldn't resistance 30 reduce them to zero damage?

[Starbuck_II]

If it's 12 separate 3d6 breath weapons, wouldn't resistance 30 reduce them to zero damage?

Huh, my math failed me. :smalltongue:

[Woodzyowl]

Assuming that the way the OP is reading it is correct, why wouldn't the DM just drop Rule 0 on it?

[Invader]

The real question is if its a Dragonborn pyrohyrda and it takes the dragonwrought feat, is it eligible to take lorehydra and get free Sorc levels... :smallamused:

[Dusk Eclipse]

The real question is if its a Dragonborn pyrohyrda and it takes the dragonwrought feat, is it eligible to take lorehydra and get free Sorc levels... :smallamused:

I know it is supposed to be a joke/sacarm; but that is completely illegal.

First: Only creatures with Intelligence of 3 or higher can undergo the Ritual of Rebirth and become Dragonborn, a Hidra only has Int 2.
Second: Dragonwrought is a Kobold only feat, so a Hydra (pyro or otherwise) can't take it. ever. No, not even then.
Third: There are still some debate on weather Dragonwroughts Kobold are True Dragons or not (Please don't derail this thread into another debate)

[Invader]

I know it is supposed to be a joke/sacarm; but that is completely illegal.

First: Only creatures with Intelligence of 3 or higher can undergo the Ritual of Rebirth and become Dragonborn, a Hidra only has Int 2.
Second: Dragonwrought is a Kobold only feat, so a Hydra (pyro or otherwise) can't take it. ever. No, not even then.
Third: There are still some debate on weather Dragonwroughts Kobold are True Dragons or not (Please don't derail this thread into another debate)

If you know that it was sarcasm and not meant to be serious, why did you feel the need to explain it anyway? :smallconfused:

[Dusk Eclipse]

In case some people don't know that was supposed to be sarcasms. And I just felt like it.

[TuggyNE]

These reddish hydras can breathe jets of fire 10 feet high, 10 feet wide, and 20 feet long. All heads breathe once every 1d4 rounds. Each jet deals 3d6 points of fire damage per head. A successful Reflex save halves the damage. The save DC is 10 + ½ hydra’s original number of heads + hydra’s Con modifier.
So... we have in bold, jets, meaning multiple, all heads, meaning multiple, each jet, meaning multiple, doing 3d6per head (that formula based on how many are left).

As already mentioned, the plural in jets is more sensible to attribute to multiple over time than multiple at once — especially when you reflect that your interpretation would have 12 overlapping 10x10x20' breath weapons coming from a single creature not more than 15' on a side. The geometry just doesn't check out. Further, the natural explanation for linearly scaling damage is that each head is contributing 3d6 to the unified jet; your interpretation has quadratic scaling and no explanation at all.

"All heads" is more naturally interpreted as "all heads together"; if it said "each head" you'd have a better case.

Finally, "each jet" is again time-based, not simultaneity-based: each of the multiple jets it can breathe out over time has this characteristic damage.


I'm still more scared of the Beholder of same CR that can Disintegrate me after he put me to sleep at 200 feet away EVERY ROUND. lol... :xykon:

Your perspective is skewed here; disintegrate, with a decent chance of taking almost no damage, is vastly less dangerous than "all PCs within range die, no save, every 1d4 rounds".


P.S. I'm a little amused that fire damage is always the magnet for this sort of Nuclear Dan "roll ALL the d6s" idea. It's never cold, or sonic, or acid, or force, or lightning. Oh no, only fire damage is this compelling.

It's especially apparent here, because there's a perfectly good cryohydra with mirrored stats.

[Lonely Tylenol]

So... we have in bold, jets, meaning multiple, all heads, meaning multiple, each jet, meaning multiple, doing 3d6per head (that formula based on how many are left).

Your math is wrong too. 36d6 is average is 108. A save is half at 54. Resist Energy is 30, so that's 24 damage. Take that times 12 is 288. It's range is only 20 feet long. So every 1d4 rounds, if close enough, could kill you. (Again, you could be invisible or you get first attack and chop 4-8 of it's heads off).

Your premise is flawed and so is your math. The jet of flame is individual, and is the product of multiple heads contributing to the same jet (much like how multiple sources of heat from, say, a stove top or Bunsen burner can better heat a pot). The hydra doesn't simultaneously use more breaths, and have each individual weapon be stronger than it would be if fewer heads contributed. Logic and physics don't work that way, and neither do the rules.

Follow-up: creatures with spells and spell-like abilities (such as true dragons) have "Spells" and "Spell-like abilities" listed as the header for their respective sections. In the True Dragon entry, it reads:


A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description

Does this plurality allow a true dragon to cast spells (plural) in a round, or does it simply allude to the fact that spells, plural, may exist in the dragon's repertoire?

Also, 36d6 absolutely does not average out to 108, because the average of 1d6 is not 3. The average of 1d6 is 3.5, and 3.5*36 is 126.


I'm still more scared of the Beholder of same CR that can Disintegrate me after he put me to sleep at 200 feet away EVERY ROUND. lol... :xykon:

The tongue-in-cheek response to damage is that it's never important, hit points are just a resource, beware the Save or X, etc., but people seem to forget that damage that brings you to -10 kills you, and that is (with few, rare exceptions) the worst condition of all, and anything that can do arbitrarily high amounts of damage is going to make damage relevant. The Hydra, as described in your OP (putting aside that it is incorrect), does an arbitrarily high amount of damage for its level, since at the CR it is being put against adventurers, anything that gets hit by the breath dies even if it makes the save, unless it has Evasion. Mailman builds put out that damage no-save, and at the level of damage Mailmen put out I wouldn't dare to think the damage is irrelevant (when and if it connects, which the odds are just as good on, if not better than, a save or suck/die).

[rockdeworld]

I get it!

The text says each jet deals 3d6 damage per head. This logically implies that each breath deals 36d6 damage. His math is right. The book is "wrong." The bold part should be omitted.

[danzibr]

I get it!

The text says each jet deals 3d6 damage per head. This logically implies that each breath deals 36d6 damage. His math is right. The book is "wrong." The bold part should be omitted.
Yeah, totally makes sense. I do think it's supposed to be they all breathe at once though.

[LTwerewolf]

Why is it being multiplied by 12 twice? Makes no sense. Each head breathes a 3d6. Not multiplied by anything. Just 3d6. If twelve heads do it, there's 12x3d6, or as someone else has said is 36d6. That's all. No extra multiplication.

[TuggyNE]

I get it!

The text says each jet deals 3d6 damage per head. This logically implies that each breath deals 36d6 damage. His math is right. The book is "wrong." The bold part should be omitted.

His math is incorrect, in whole and in part, largely because he assumes that each head breathes a separate jet simultaneously, despite also contributing to the other heads' jets. (There's also a separate issue around the actual average of d6s, but that's fairly minor.)

Your suggested correction would actually mean that all pyrohydras would breathe 3d6 total fire damage every 1d4 rounds, which isn't terribly interesting. (That is, every 1d4 rounds the pyro/cryohydra breathes a single unified jet with the stated damage scaling — which by default adds 3d6 for every current head.) You could certainly set it up so each head breathes separately, but that introduces further complications: can some heads delay in order to offset usage and cooldowns? does energy resistance apply to each jet individually, and if so why is the monster so weak?

The simplest approach is just to properly interpret the way it's actually written, make no changes, and need no further adjustments.

[huttj509]

If it helps at all the OP isn't the only one who read it the way he did.

I was DMing a campaign and threw a cryohydra in there. After turning to the statblock and reading it, I was sitting there thinking:

"Wait, each head breathes a jet of cold, and each jet does 3d6 per head? That's nuts, but that's what it says, but that's nuts!"

I then replaced it with another beasty of the same CR, planning to mention it here at some point (never got around to it) in a "wait, what am I missing here?" format.

[TuggyNE]

If it helps at all the OP isn't the only one who read it the way he did.

Yeah, I'm not going to claim the wording is exemplary; it's definitely confusing, but it does have a correct reading (unlike certain cases of 3.5 RAW, where the literal wording just does not work). Basically, I'd give the writer a C for effort and thinking about it, but not taking quite enough time to spell it out in full.

[Silvanoshei]

Well... I will concede, but, honestly the wording in this description is very interpretable.


All heads combined together breathe once every 1d4 rounds. Each breathe deals 3d6 points of fire damage per head.Why was that so hard WOTC. . . . . :smallmad:

[Eldariel]

"Every one of the heads is capable of breathing once per 1d4 rounds. A head's individual jet does 3d6 damage, reflex for half. Heads can breathe together combining their jets' damage, or separately, as the creature desires."

That seems unambiguous, clear and sufficiently accurate.

[Starbuck_II]

"Every one of the heads is capable of breathing once per 1d4 rounds. A head's individual jet does 3d6 damage, reflex for half. Heads can breathe together combining their jets' damage, or separately, as the creature desires."

That seems unambiguous, clear and sufficiently accurate.

I think that fits best, but it lets the DM use 11 heads (together) then next round the last in case it rolls badly before can breath again.

It makes
a. Fire resistance is best against seperate breaths when used
b. Protection best when combined used.

[kardar233]

Yeah, this isn't the first time WotC has inadvertently written an ability to be exponential rather than linear.

Witness Psionic Lion's Charge:

For every additional power point you spend, each of your attacks after a charge in the current round gains a circumstance bonus on damage equal to the number of additional points spent.

Now, RAI is clearly: if spent X power points, then deal X bonus damage on each attack.

What it actually reads: if spent X power points, then for each power point in X, give each attack X bonus damage.

Or, as I'd write in Python:

ppspent=10
numberattacks=4
totaldamage=0
for attacks in range(0,numberattacks):
damage=0
for x in range(0,ppspent):
damage=damage+ppspent
totaldamage=totaldamage+damage

Which, using the example of 4 attacks and 10 extra PP spent, would give you 400 extra damage: 100 extra damage per attack.

I think I saw this in a damage record breaking thread here.

[hex0]

First: Only creatures with Intelligence of 3 or higher can undergo the Ritual of Rebirth and become Dragonborn, a Hidra only has Int 2.


Play a half-dragon Pyrohydra?

[Keld Denar]

So... we have in bold, jets, meaning multiple, all heads, meaning multiple, each jet, meaning multiple, doing 3d6per head (that formula based on how many are left).

You seem to have missed a key part of english. Not all that is plural means multiple. Collective nouns are written as plural nouns, but only refer to a single body or group of entities. So the singular group of heads (written as plural) breathes a jet of flame with a magnitude equal to 3d6 per head.

Perfectly valid parsing of the english language. WotC seems to like using collective nouns, too. I've seen them used elsewhere, like with natural weapons, unarmed strikes, and a few other places.


P.S. I'm a little amused that fire damage is always the magnet for this sort of Nuclear Dan "roll ALL the d6s" idea. It's never cold, or sonic, or acid, or force, or lightning. Oh no, only fire damage is this compelling.

MOAR DAKKA! DAKKA DAKKA FIRE DAKKA!

[kardar233]

P.S. I'm a little amused that fire damage is always the magnet for this sort of Nuclear Dan "roll ALL the d6s" idea. It's never cold, or sonic, or acid, or force, or lightning. Oh no, only fire damage is this compelling.

Not true: I once built a Persistomancer Gestalt that threw around ~2,044 damage in a Piercing Cold breath weapon as his primary attack. I chose Cold rather than Fire for thematic reasons; it's very satisfying to be able to say "I froze Mephistopheles".

[Arcanist]

Not true: I once built a Persistomancer Gestalt that threw around ~2,044 damage in a Piercing Cold breath weapon as his primary attack. I chose Cold rather than Fire for thematic reasons; it's very satisfying to be able to say "I froze Mephistopheles".

Did you do it to the Dicefreak Mephistopheles? :smallconfused:

[kardar233]

Did you do it to the Dicefreak Mephistopheles? :smallconfused:

No; I hadn't encountered the Dicefreaks stuff at that point. That stuff is a bit far above my optimization cap (reading about the Iron Siege at the moment). Anything that can pull a buffed greater god with epic class levels straight out of the sky and instantly kill it with no save is way out of my reach.

[Iamyourking]

It would still be a one-hit kill, Dicefreaks Mephistopheles "only" has 1620 hp and cold resistance 40; assuming of course that he didn't make his reflex save at +70, that the caster made his DC 67 Will save to keep from cowering in fear as soon as he got within 900 feet, and that Mephistopheles didn't take advantage of having access to every spell ever printed (and a few that aren't) to put up all the various and sundry defenses that high level wizards have. Still, best case scenario, he could indeed turn the Lord of Loss into a popsicle; at least until he reformed (Seeing as how there's no indication that this Persistomancer was a cosmic entity and therefore can't permanently kill him).

Edit: Incidentally, it also far outstrips Mephistopheles in terms in blasting damage. The best he can do is 784 with his intensified, twinned, violated meteor swarm; even his signature Frore Blast only averages 231 damage, 347 if he casts First Touch of Winter first (Although it also does 18 Dex damage and turns you into an ice statue if you fail your fortitude save). Realistically his greatest danger comes from his intensified, twinned energy drain; since 32 negative levels is enough to cripple most anything.

[kardar233]

It would still be a one-hit kill, Dicefreaks Mephistopheles "only" has 1620 hp and cold resistance 40; assuming of course that he didn't make his reflex save at +70, that the caster made his DC 67 Will save to keep from cowering in fear as soon as he got within 900 feet, and that Mephistopheles didn't take advantage of having access to every spell ever printed (and a few that aren't) to put up all the various and sundry defenses that high level wizards have. Still, best case scenario, he could indeed turn the Lord of Loss into a popsicle; at least until he reformed (Seeing as how there's no indication that this Persistomancer was a cosmic entity and therefore can't permanently kill him).

Edit: Incidentally, it also far outstrips Mephistopheles in terms in blasting damage. The best he can do is 784 with his intensified, twinned, violated meteor swarm; even his signature Frore Blast only averages 231 damage, 347 if he casts First Touch of Winter first (Although it also does 18 Dex damage and turns you into an ice statue if you fail your fortitude save). Realistically his greatest danger comes from his intensified, twinned energy drain; since 32 negative levels is enough to cripple most anything.

This particular Persistomancer was a 20th level Gestalt, so no, not a cosmic entity.

Anyways, don't deities roll 20 on everything, or something like that? I'd think that using a Reflex-based attack on a guy who can just say "nope, 20" (especially when Evasion is easily available via Ruin Delver's Fortune) would not be a productive enterprise.

Anyways, it feels a little bit more impressive to freeze d20 Mephy, the hellish essence of flame, than to freeze Dicefreaks Mephy, the hellish essence of frost. Personal preference.

[Iamyourking]

No, cosmic entities just don't auto-fail on a 1 (Same goes for gods by Dicefreaks rules, but they get to add their divine rank to all saves. I guess so that Greater Deities aren't totally unbeatable) and since Ruin Delver's Fortune isn't on his list of generally prepared spells it doesn't count for the purposes of this exercise (As I said, he has every spell ever written in every sourcebook in his spellbooks; so he actually can be truly prepared for anything). I'll give you the rest, but we should end this derail.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Play a half-dragon Pyrohydra?

You still can't play a Pirohydra, the have LA:- and therefore unplayable normally. If you added the Half-dragon template you would have to use the CR modifier instead. Having said that I believe a Half dragon pirohydra could indeed undergo the ritual of rebirth.

[Jeraa]

Anyways, don't deities roll 20 on everything, or something like that? I'd think that using a Reflex-based attack on a guy who can just say "nope, 20" (especially when Evasion is easily available via Ruin Delver's Fortune) would not be a productive enterprise.


Yes and no. They must still roll the die, but usually ignore what is rolled and just add 20 instead. They don't auto-succeed, or automatically get a natural 20. The die must still actually land on the 20 for that.

[Starbuck_II]

You still can't play a Pirohydra, the have LA:- and therefore unplayable normally. If you added the Half-dragon template you would have to use the CR modifier instead. Having said that I believe a Half dragon pirohydra could indeed undergo the ritual of rebirth.

You can in Pathfinder, you use CR as LA in that game. :smalltongue:

[lunar2]

I know it is supposed to be a joke/sacarm; but that is completely illegal.

First: Only creatures with Intelligence of 3 or higher can undergo the Ritual of Rebirth and become Dragonborn, a Hidra only has Int 2.
Second: Dragonwrought is a Kobold only feat, so a Hydra (pyro or otherwise) can't take it. ever. No, not even then.
Third: There are still some debate on weather Dragonwroughts Kobold are True Dragons or not (Please don't derail this thread into another debate)

luckily, hydras are magical beasts. while an average hydra only has an intelligence of 2, an elite hydra could have an intelligence as high as 7, because magical beasts have no intelligence limit, unlike animals.