Batman: Death of the Family

[SgtCarnage92]

I haven't been paying much attention to comics recently, but after DC announced their recent Batman arc "Death of the Family" I've been interested to see what they have planned for the Clown Prince of Crime's return. So here's the place to share your thoughts on the arc as it progresses.

I've read the first issue (Batman: 13) and I'm officially excited to see where it goes, I also checked out the first tie-in comic with Catwoman, and it was surprisingly decent. Looking forward to this event as it progresses, hopefully they don't disappoint.

[Metahuman1]

If anyone has to die, I want it to be Damian first. That is in my mind a required kill off before anyone else is allowed to actually die.


After that, Tim Drake, but ONLY if he get's one of the most badass heroic deaths with an amazing noble sacrifice thrown in EVER! And then be replaced by an alternate universe version that has the pre-flashpoint History.



And then We can replace Damian with a character that isn't inherently unlikeable. I like this set of ideas very much.

[Jayngfet]

If anyone has to die, I want it to be Damian first. That is in my mind a required kill off before anyone else is allowed to actually die.


After that, Tim Drake, but ONLY if he get's one of the most badass heroic deaths with an amazing noble sacrifice thrown in EVER! And then be replaced by an alternate universe version that has the pre-flashpoint History.



And then We can replace Damian with a character that isn't inherently unlikeable. I like this set of ideas very much.

I second every single one of these ideas. Damian could have been good, and I gave him a whole lot of chances but he's just a twerp and a jerk, as well as probably being the most obnoxious robin ever, even including the behavior that god Jason Todd killed off. It's been years and he still hasn't had many stories where he, in and of himself, comes off as engaging. Not to mention he's what, the fourth or fifth black haired blue eyed Batman character who fights crime?

Tim Drake is an embarrassment. He has a different back-story, different suit, different equipment set, inferior detective skills, and leads what's probably the weakest family of comics in the entire New 52. He's not just a weak version from a shoddy book, he's actually not even Tim Drake in the most literal sense of the word.


Ok, venting aside, I really think that in all honesty that Batman 13 was an incredibly weak issue. I mean the whole issue with Joker's face came off as a cheap attempt at shock value, and the idea that he could single handedly take on a dozen armed thugs is kind of dumb. As well, the bit with Harley Quinn makes no real sense to me. I mean if you're going to stick her behind an all consuming hood there's no reason to affect her face, and if you want to make it authentic then why not go all out instead of glorified goth makeup?


Lastly, the title strikes me as being yet another cheap grab at the prestige at past comics. I mean we had this with Green Lantern 12 imitating the Death of Superman cover and the Man of Steel himself pretty much replicating a scene from All Star Superman, so this isn't new but it's still a blatant display of how creatively bankrupt DC is at the moment.

[ThiagoMartell]

When the character you like the most in the new BatFamily is freaking Jason Todd, you know there is something wrong. They screwed all Robins, even resetting Damian's personality to pre-Batman & Robin levels.
Seriously, Bruce should have stayed dead and **** should be Batman. Search it in your mind. You know it to be true. /rant

But yeah, I might read this as well.

[Devonix]

Oh PLEASE don't kill Damien. I've been dreading this happening ever since Batman and Robin. I actually love the little twerp and feel he's good for the Batman Universe.

Send him away or something but don't kill him off. Can you just imagine the Angst hat would be heaped on the Batman titles. It would kill them for me.

Granted my love of Damien comes from pre Flashpoint books and stories... but most of my love for DC comes from before that cluster!@#

[Metahuman1]

*Ready's the Bat-anti-horrible-writer-tourches-and-pitchforks.*


Gentlemen, Lady's, motion carried, now, ONWARD!!! STORM DC HEADQUARTERS!!!!! DOWN WITH THE CURRENT FOOLS!!!!


Seriously, New 52 has made DC almost as bad as Marvel's been since Civil War, and with Marvel about to do a Reboot, I am actually having to look at dropping most of the New 52 all together and then going back to being almost exclusively a Marvel Fan.



And personally, I like the idea of taking a bit of time where Batman doesn't have a Robin for awhile after Damian has been removed (Via death or anything else that means he won't be plaguing us again. What ever it takes.), and in the mean time have Bab's get out of the Batgirl Costume on the grounds that she's out-grown that call sign (I like the idea that Jim Gordon relents and let's her join GCPD myself and she distinguishes herself in that career path, and on her own time establishes herself as Super hacker/info broker Code Name: Oracle, meaning she's getting the best of all three worlds.), release a special limited series about Cassandra Cain and how for three years she was Batgirl while Barbara was recovering form events in Killing Joke as per new Canon, and then when Barbara got back to the field she became Black Bat, and Let Stephanie Brown come around again as Batgirl.

Then in a few years, have her relocate somewhere where she's not gonna be in Gothem regularly enough to still be Batgirl and have any credibility, so she get's a new costume and call sign and we hand that set of reins off to a new comer at about the same time Bruce is getting a new Robin.

If we do that, I nominate going into DCAU for inspiration for a new Robin: Terry Mac-Guinness (Probably spelled the last name wrong. Teen Batman form the Batman: Beyond animated series.), and pick up a bit of classic 80's literature for inspiration for new Batgirl (I'm looking at Dark Knight Returns Carrie Kellington (Again, probably spelled the last name wrong. It was the girl who became robin for the Graphic Novels story line.). Again, Dark Knight Returns, NOT Dark Knight Strikes Again.)

[Man on Fire]

Seriously, New 52 has made DC almost as bad as Marvel's been since Civil War, and with Marvel about to do a Reboot, I am actually having to look at dropping most of the New 52 all together and then going back to being almost exclusively a Marvel Fan.

Not wanting to derail the thread, but what are you reading from DC and what Marvel has that apparently caught your interest. As long-time Marvel fan I'm mostly disgusted by their new offer - I mean, I could give Indetructible Hulk a chance and I'm excited for Yougn Avengers, but, well,, hot to put it...Avengers Arena and all bs going on with Avengers (almost all the same people in EVERY. SINGLE. TEAM.) and X-Men titles (all-New X-Men) and giving my favorite superhero team, Guardians of the Galaxy to Bendis, out of all people - yeah I'm pretty mad at Marvel these days.

From DC I'm reading only Demon Knights and I hate a lot of their new titles - Suicide Squad with what they did to Harley Quinn, Batgirl with all the jabs at Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain fans (I mean, one isue apparently had Batman outright stating Barbara is the only good batgirl, then looking right at the reader and repeating it) among them, but I heard they have some promising titles - Animal Man, Swamp Thing, Ressurection Man, Frankenstein and more horror-esque Wonder Woman (through I'm mad they took away her pants last minute).

[Scowling Dragon]

I have an idea:

Let comics DIE. The DC animates stuff is so good, and you know why? Because it ENDS. Its not forced to resort to reboots to make itself work and to have good continuity.

Have comic heroes retire, don't bring back dead villains/ heroes (Therefore don't kill them unless you absolutely need to) and NO MORE REBOOTS!

We are in the age of wikapedia people! Its not hard to read up on comic continuity.

The DC animated stuff is just gold!

[Man on Fire]

I would like you to stop confusing "comics" with "mainsterm superhero comics published by Marvel and DC". There are many comics, superhero and not, outside big two who don't suffer problems you are talking about.

[Scowling Dragon]

Sorry. I just didn't think that was necessary in this thread.

[Metahuman1]

Further, all of DC AND Marvels problems could go away, all it would take is a couple of people who give enough of a care about them to be willing to tell the the other Executives and the writers to cut the crap, show them what is being defined as the crap, or get out, and show them that there replacements, equally dedicated, are already lined up at the drop of a hat.

Either the bad apples get replaced with good ones, or become acceptable ones.


The problem is getting a person like that in control.

[Jayngfet]

Further, all of DC AND Marvels problems could go away, all it would take is a couple of people who give enough of a care about them to be willing to tell the the other Executives and the writers to cut the crap, show them what is being defined as the crap, or get out, and show them that there replacements, equally dedicated, are already lined up at the drop of a hat.

Either the bad apples get replaced with good ones, or become acceptable ones.


The problem is getting a person like that in control.

It can be done, it's just that very few people know both how to get that done and have the drive to do it. It IS possible to knock around top executives without going outside the law, it's just that with a budget like ours(read: zero), we'd need to be VERY careful, and it'd take weeks or months just to get through any kind of opening move.

[Merellis]

I don't know about you, but the only Marvel I'm looking forward too is Young Avengers. :smallsmile: If only for a few certain parts of the lineup!

As for Batman, hoping we get Damian back with ****, the little twerp did so much better with him.

[Eakin]

I have an idea:

Let comics DIE. The DC animates stuff is so good, and you know why? Because it ENDS. Its not forced to resort to reboots to make itself work and to have good continuity.

Have comic heroes retire, don't bring back dead villains/ heroes (Therefore don't kill them unless you absolutely need to) and NO MORE REBOOTS!

We are in the age of wikapedia people! Its not hard to read up on comic continuity.

The DC animated stuff is just gold!

If you buy comics and feel this way, you should probably stop giving them your money.

If you don't buy comics, why do you care? Stick to the stories you liked, of whatever era, and don't be fooled into investing in new issues just because they have a particular character in them. That's what drives them to keep characters around beyond their narrative sell-by date.

Many comic book stories are good, but I don't think anyone will argue that the comic industry experiment of telling and retelling the same characters' stories with hundreds of different artists, editors, and writers in varying combinations hasn't produced a disproportionate ratio of crap to gold, or that their work taken as a single whole has any kind of consistency or coherence.


Further, all of DC AND Marvels problems could go away, all it would take is a couple of people who give enough of a care about them to be willing to tell the the other Executives and the writers to cut the crap, show them what is being defined as the crap, or get out, and show them that there replacements, equally dedicated, are already lined up at the drop of a hat.

Either the bad apples get replaced with good ones, or become acceptable ones.


The problem is getting a person like that in control.

The problem is also coming up with a definitive list of 'good' and 'bad' that matches opinions across the entire comic book readership. Just because someone 'really cares' about a property doesn't mean they're capable of telling good stories either. The executives of the company (and by executives I mean board of directors level here) are focused on the financial well being of the company, probably not meddling with the issue-to-issue content or the direction individual storylines and character arcs take.

They care a whole lot more about actual bankruptcy than creative bankruptcy, and to expect anything else is naive.

[Metahuman1]

If you buy comics and feel this way, you should probably stop giving them your money.

If you don't buy comics, why do you care? Stick to the stories you liked, of whatever era, and don't be fooled into investing in new issues just because they have a particular character in them. That's what drives them to keep characters around beyond their narrative sell-by date.

Many comic book stories are good, but I don't think anyone will argue that the comic industry experiment of telling and retelling the same characters' stories with hundreds of different artists, editors, and writers in varying combinations hasn't produced a disproportionate ratio of crap to gold, or that their work taken as a single whole has any kind of consistency or coherence.



The problem is also coming up with a definitive list of 'good' and 'bad' that matches opinions across the entire comic book readership. Just because someone 'really cares' about a property doesn't mean they're capable of telling good stories either. The executives of the company (and by executives I mean board of directors level here) are focused on the financial well being of the company, probably not meddling with the issue-to-issue content or the direction individual storylines and character arcs take.

They care a whole lot more about actual bankruptcy than creative bankruptcy, and to expect anything else is naive.

For the most part, the last statement holds, however, there have been too many incidents were the Executives at that level said "Do it this way or else." to the writers.

Anyone familiar with the One More Day story line from Spider-man? Text book example of what I don't want to happen again. That was the writer writing a story under protest and with the threat of being let go if he didn't do exactly what the exec's wanted.




And I'm not looking forward to anything of marvels except for there upcoming continuity reboot. Yes, I can already see hulk getting the short end of the stick coming around the corner here, but maybe others, like Spider-man, like Daredevil, Like the X-men, Like Captain America, Like Dr. Strange, and Like Iron Man, will once more be readable and even likeable!

[Eakin]

For the most part, the last statement holds, however, there have been too many incidents were the Executives at that level said "Do it this way or else." to the writers.

Anyone familiar with the One More Day story line from Spider-man? Text book example of what I don't want to happen again. That was the writer writing a story under protest and with the threat of being let go if he didn't do exactly what the exec's wanted.




And I'm not looking forward to anything of marvels except for there upcoming continuity reboot. Yes, I can already see hulk getting the short end of the stick coming around the corner here, but maybe others, like Spider-man, like Daredevil, Like the X-men, Like Captain America, Like Dr. Strange, and Like Iron Man, will once more be readable and even likeable!

I wouldn't necessarily call an editor-in-chief an executive, but I see your broader point. Still, would One More Day have been all that much better if the writer had been on board with the broader idea? I thought the biggest problem people had with it was what it accomplished and did to the character, not that it was badly written.

And no offense, but the fact that you're willing to come back and start reading comics that you don't like now if Marvel reboots their continuity kind of makes you part of the problem, in my view. Continuity reboots are not a good thing, they're a sign that the people involved can't tell a long form story especially when they're used as often as they are presently.

[Scowling Dragon]

I don't grant them money. I read old classics, Elseworlds (Also a great source for cool alternate tales). And watch animated movies.

[Metahuman1]

I wouldn't necessarily call an editor-in-chief an executive, but I see your broader point. Still, would One More Day have been all that much better if the writer had been on board with the broader idea? I thought the biggest problem people had with it was what it accomplished and did to the character, not that it was badly written.

And no offense, but the fact that you're willing to come back and start reading comics that you don't like now if Marvel reboots their continuity kind of makes you part of the problem, in my view. Continuity reboots are not a good thing, they're a sign that the people involved can't tell a long form story especially when they're used as often as they are presently.

Well, the writer said that he never would have written the story until the editor/executive/whatever-were-calling-his-higher-up came in and told him what they wanted and to do it or else.


And I'm willing to give them a chance if they can fix the major damage they've done to themselves in the last seven or so years. The characters themselves aren't bad, they've still had many, many great stories and the potential for many more. But it becomes impossible to write around some things in your history, like taking off your mask and giving the world your secret Identity, like deciding to force everyone else to register and work for the government when a major point of your character has always been that you consider the government utterly inept, end of story, or Like betraying and Exhaling and old friend whom you've fought for all that was good side by side with against overwhelming odds many times, and then later being party accidentally killing his wife.

That's the sort of thing a Reboot has a chance to fix, if it's handled right. Now, I grant you, If they blow it here, I'm gonna go right back to what I've been doing with them since civil war. Only reading occasional choice selections that I hear were really, really, really good. (World War Hulk for example.), or Continuity's that didn't get destroyed again. (I still read X-men lines for example after Civil War until we found out what an Irredeemable hippocrit Xavier was and that most of the team are actually really self centered jerks. )

[Man on Fire]

And I'm not looking forward to anything of marvels except for there upcoming continuity reboot. Yes, I can already see hulk getting the short end of the stick coming around the corner here, but maybe others, like Spider-man, like Daredevil, Like the X-men, Like Captain America, Like Dr. Strange, and Like Iron Man, will once more be readable and even likeable!

Then I have bad news for you.

There is no reboot.

No. Reboot.

they just restart bunch of their propherites from issue 1, but there is no reboot whatsoever, nothing in continuity changes. At all.

And quite frankly, Hulk has the best chances of getting on the top with thi thing, Mark Waid is currently having a blast with his more optimistic and adventure-focused Daredevil run (which, is what you shold give a try from what I see coming from you). On the other hand we're getting:
- Nova nad Guardians of the Galaxy, two of my favorite who had very soild runs two years ago ago being respectively replaced by annoying brat from Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon, written by poibly the worst writer at current Marvel staff, Jeph Loeb and being written by Brain Bendis, who already proven that he writes bad team comics, doesn't feel good writing big-scale cosmic adventures, doe't understand the characters and couldn't even bother to explain why two members of the team that died after the end of their last series are suddenly alive. Also, he took Star-Lord's helmet away.
- Avengers Arena series that takes several fan-favorite teenage superheroes from teams such liek Runaways and Avengers Academy and throws them into Battle Royale situation, so we can see them getting brutally killed one after another.
- 3 Avengers series with mostly the same people in every single one of them - we have Captain America in 3 teams and Wolverine, Spider-Woman, Thor, Hulk, Captain Marvel, hawkeye and Black Widow in two.
- Bendis, guy who writes as bad team series as good his olo series are, writing new main X-Men flagship title. With original X-men from the past.
- Spider-man being replaced by...somebody, so his series may take darker and grittier turn.
- Thunderbolts beign given to Daniel Way, guy who is second best candidate for Marvel's worst writer at the moment.

Yeah before you get your hopes up, check out what they're actually selling.

Of course they also have the good tuff - new Young Avengers and new Hulk series looks very promising.


Further, all of DC AND Marvels problems could go away, all it would take is a couple of people who give enough of a care about them to be willing to tell the the other Executives and the writers to cut the crap, show them what is being defined as the crap, or get out, and show them that there replacements, equally dedicated, are already lined up at the drop of a hat.

Either the bad apples get replaced with good ones, or become acceptable ones.


The problem is getting a person like that in control.

No, the real problem is to make it happen with both companies at the same time. In 2010 Marvel tried to stop huge crossover event craze, instead introducing handful of much smaller crossovers. DC however did huge crossover event and beaten them at sales, which is why Marvel returned to doing it old-fashioned way, giving us godawful crap like Feat Itself and Avenges Vs. X-Men.


And I'm willing to give them a chance if they can fix the major damage they've done to themselves in the last seven or so years. The characters themselves aren't bad, they've still had many, many great stories and the potential for many more. But it becomes impossible to write around some things in your history, like taking off your mask and giving the world your secret Identity, like deciding to force everyone else to register and work for the government when a major point of your character has always been that you consider the government utterly inept, end of story, or Like betraying and Exhaling and old friend whom you've fought for all that was good side by side with against overwhelming odds many times, and then later being party accidentally killing his wife.

That's the sort of thing a Reboot has a chance to fix, if it's handled right. Now, I grant you, If they blow it here, I'm gonna go right back to what I've been doing with them since civil war. Only reading occasional choice selections that I hear were really, really, really good. (World War Hulk for example.), or Continuity's that didn't get destroyed again. (I still read X-men lines for example after Civil War until we found out what an Irredeemable hippocrit Xavier was and that most of the team are actually really self centered jerks. )

Again, there is no reboot, everything stays in continuity.

And honestly, you can write around these things, they give you potential t otry something new with characters, to take them in new direction, to make things evolve. Reboots only make people don't care about the storie, makes them think they don't matter because there won't be any permament change or real consequences and they are used to enforce status quo that was good several decades ago and now is ot of place in current world. Linakra did excellent rants about this in his 200th episode (http://atopfourthwall.blogspot.com/2012/07/200th-episode.html).

[Metahuman1]

...
...
...

...well, that ruined my hopes for them rather nicely.

Ok, so, Daredevil, have they fixed the tiny problem of Stark having destroyed his entire life when he arrested him and made his real Identity a confirmed public fact during/after Civil War? If so I could read things about Matt Mardock again, I always liked him.

Yeah, Hulks had the best stuff since Civil War for the most part. And since no Reboot, that's apparently gonna remain the same.

And someone else is Spiderman COULD work, if handled right. But for the love of all humanity don't repeat what you did to him in Ultimate verse.

[Man on Fire]

Ok, so, Daredevil, have they fixed the tiny problem of Stark having destroyed his entire life when he arrested him and made his real Identity a confirmed public fact during/after Civil War?

...That didn't happen. In Civil War Tony did arrested Daredevil but
a) he did not unmasked him
b) it was Danny Rand, iron Fist, who was dressed as Daredevil.

Daredevil was already arrested in his own series before Civil War even started, and his idientity was exposed long before that (50 issues earlier to be specific).

While unmasking is still in continuity, Mark Waid found a way to deal with it, or rather around it, mostly realted to the fact that nobody has any soild evidence to prove Matt is DD. Generally, Waid took the approach to make more optimistic series than last 3 DD writers (Bendis, Brubaker and Diggle, who, with exception of last one, very really goo by the way) - he wanted Daredevil stories that don't make him say "I need a friggin drink".


Yeah, Hulks had the best stuff since Civil War for the most part. And since no Reboot, that's apparently gonna remain the same.

Actually, Hulk had some bad parts since Civil War, namely Red Hulk saga and confuing Jason Aaron's run. Waid is a chance for him to shine again.

[Eakin]

Well, the writer said that he never would have written the story until the editor/executive/whatever-were-calling-his-higher-up came in and told him what they wanted and to do it or else.


And I'm willing to give them a chance if they can fix the major damage they've done to themselves in the last seven or so years. The characters themselves aren't bad, they've still had many, many great stories and the potential for many more. But it becomes impossible to write around some things in your history, like taking off your mask and giving the world your secret Identity, like deciding to force everyone else to register and work for the government when a major point of your character has always been that you consider the government utterly inept, end of story, or Like betraying and Exhaling and old friend whom you've fought for all that was good side by side with against overwhelming odds many times, and then later being party accidentally killing his wife.

That's the sort of thing a Reboot has a chance to fix.

OK, if the overall idea was bad and it was ordered from above yes that's your editor's fault. But it's your editor's fault regardless of whether you think it was a good idea or not. Maybe you can do something to salvage mediocrity from that and maybe you can't. However, you can't just say that the editor make a mistake because he wasn't a "true fan." By any objective measure he's probably a major fan of comic books. He just had a crappy idea. That may make him a bad editor but it doesn't mean he's not a 'true fan.' The idea that 'if we just get the REAL fans in charge, comic's will be great again' is just your standard No True Scotsman fallacy.

As to reboots in general, if you want big dynamic changes to drive the development of your characters over time, you can't just rewind them all the time. If you give your character to a crappy writer and they do a crappy job, guess what, you can't have it both ways. Comic book writing is, for the most part, terrible and we can argue back and forth for why that is until the heat death of the universe.

If you want to tell a new story, make a new character. But the ones you've got have to live with the decisions they make.


Then I have bad news for you.

There is no reboot.

No. Reboot.

they just restart bunch of their propherites from issue 1, but there is no reboot whatsoever, nothing in continuity changes. At all.

And quite frankly, Hulk has the best chances of getting on the top with thi thing, Mark Waid is currently having a blast with his more optimistic and adventure-focused Daredevil run (which, is what you shold give a try from what I see coming from you). On the other hand we're getting:
- Nova nad Guardians of the Galaxy, two of my favorite who had very soild runs two years ago ago being respectively replaced by annoying brat from Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon, written by poibly the worst writer at current Marvel staff, Jeph Loeb and being written by Brain Bendis, who already proven that he writes bad team comics, doesn't feel good writing big-scale cosmic adventures, doe't understand the characters and couldn't even bother to explain why two members of the team that died after the end of their last series are suddenly alive. Also, he took Star-Lord's helmet away.
- Avengers Arena series that takes several fan-favorite teenage superheroes from teams such liek Runaways and Avengers Academy and throws them into Battle Royale situation, so we can see them getting brutally killed one after another.
- 3 Avengers series with mostly the same people in every single one of them - we have Captain America in 3 teams and Wolverine, Spider-Woman, Thor, Hulk, Captain Marvel, hawkeye and Black Widow in two.
- Bendis, guy who writes as bad team series as good his olo series are, writing new main X-Men flagship title. With original X-men from the past.
- Spider-man being replaced by...somebody, so his series may take darker and grittier turn.
- Thunderbolts beign given to Daniel Way, guy who is second best candidate for Marvel's worst writer at the moment.

Yeah before you get your hopes up, check out what they're actually selling.

Of course they also have the good tuff - new Young Avengers and new Hulk series looks very promising.



No, the real problem is to make it happen with both companies at the same time. In 2010 Marvel tried to stop huge crossover event craze, instead introducing handful of much smaller crossovers. DC however did huge crossover event and beaten them at sales, which is why Marvel returned to doing it old-fashioned way, giving us godawful crap like Feat Itself and Avenges Vs. X-Men.



Again, there is no reboot, everything stays in continuity.

And honestly, you can write around these things, they give you potential t otry something new with characters, to take them in new direction, to make things evolve. Reboots only make people don't care about the storie, makes them think they don't matter because there won't be any permament change or real consequences and they are used to enforce status quo that was good several decades ago and now is ot of place in current world. Linakra did excellent rants about this in his 200th episode (http://atopfourthwall.blogspot.com/2012/07/200th-episode.html).

I can't speak to what is/isn't getting rebooted but the last paragraph is exactly what I'm trying to say. Reboots are just the band-aid over the bullet wound, they don't fix the underlying problem and they undermine your ability to convince a reader they should be invested in your world, since everything could snap back to before without warning.

[Metahuman1]

I didn't say it was because he wasn't a true fan. I said the Executives allowed him to do stuff really bad stuff because they though the shock value would sell more issues. I don't know or really care if that's what he was looking at when he ordered it or if he actually though this was gonna be great. He needs to keep his hands out, because yes, making a deal with the devil to bring your aunt back when the devil isn't even in your continuity till right now is a pretty bad idea, and it was ordered that way from above.


Personally, at this point, if I could get free range, I could fix most of this given some time. Let's use One More Day as an example.

Ok, first problem was Mephisto showing up Deus Ex Machina style. With out him, we don't have the mess. My though would be that we find out Spidermans on the only he's playing games with, and that he get's himself into hot water when he tries a similar game on a being powerful enough to take him head on. Thanos, Eternity, Lady Death, take your pick the universe also has others, doesn't matter, just as long as they can beat the tar out of him. Once they've done so, as a side effect of having come withing a fraction of an inch of getting wasted, he loses his ability to maintain most of the other deals he's pulled. That includes the one with Peter Parker.

That fixes his end of it, but were still back to them being couple on the run. This is VERY easy to get out of by itself. All he has to do is be given a pardon. Why? Could be any number of reasons. Maybe he saves the presidents life when everyone else very clearly would have failed to do so. Maybe the President is being tricked by Norman Osborn who's got his own wheels within wheels thing going. Just for a couple of possibility's off the top of my head. The point is to get it to were there at least not Illegal anymore.

Now the fun begins. (Note: Not sure this still works, because I'm not really sure what Tony Starks up to these days, haven't touched him since Civil War unless it was specifically to watch him eat a beat down he'd more then earned.)

Let him get into a fight, with someone a couple of tier's above his own power level, someone who Canon pretty firmly says he can't take solo. Doesn't matter who as long as that criteria is met. Let him have a near death experience, were he get's to have a chat with Aunt May and Uncle Ben, and be told "Look, you've saved the world more times then a person can count on there fingers, saved the city more times then that, and saved so many lives it's staggering to think about, and that's not even all the good you've done. You can stop beating yourself up because you couldn't stop every bad thing ever form happening, it's ok, you can let it go, forgive yourself, start moving on in life. Since at the end of the day, that's his underlying emotional and psychological problem. He can't let go of things like what happened to his Aunt and Uncle.

Parker actually takes a few months off the streets after that, and does some good old fashion tinkering. And then goes and has a little chat with one Tony Stark. The chat is him basically reminding Stark about how many times he has saved Stark either Directly or In Directly over the years, and that Stark destroyed his life for quite awhile. So now, he want's a very small favor. A Patent Lawyer willing to wait for the first Royalties check to take his payment, and who will be honest and not try to steal his ideas. One trip to the Patent office later, Parkers got a few nifty things patented in his name, no stuff that would change the face of the universe or even north American society on there own, but that with them selling and the royalties he get's, allow him to tell Mr. J. Johna Jamison to get lost and live and support his family very comfortably off that income.

Now, next part, we introduce a plucky young character with a similar if not Identical power set. Fashion them how ever you like. Parker takes him/her under his wing for a few years, helps them avoid a lot of pitfalls he walked head first into when he was figuring this stuff out for himself, and then, after about two or three years of this (Maybe more depending.), he hands over the costume, and unless it's end of the world or bigger, get's out of the trenches.

Congratulations, I just fixed it, now I need Marvel to let me get with the art department and then to actually publish it.

It's just too bad so many other chunks of there continuity need that kind of overhaul.

[Eakin]

See that sort of idea I like because it isn't a reboot, and it actually closes out Peter Parker's story instead of wallowing in it and snapping back when it strays too far from the status quo. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be tricky, he's still out in the open as the former spider man and the villains aren't going to care about a presidential pardon. The problem will come a few years down the line when a new writer takes on the line, sales slump (not necessarily for any reason, maybe just a rocky few months for no explainable reason. It happens) and comic book fans start screaming about how this proves that Peter Parker was the only REAL Spider-Man... And soon we're back to square one.

It's awfully hard to leave a mark on a property like that when it will someday be taken over by someone else with different ideas of how to run it.

[The Glyphstone]

See, you clearly don't understand Spiderman fans. They can't relate to or care about a Spiderman who's not a worthless loser who can't get a girlfriend and still lives with his substitute parent(s).:smallcool:

[Soras Teva Gee]

The idea that 'if we just get the REAL fans in charge, comic's will be great again' is just your standard No True Scotsman fallacy.


Should be noted there have been plenty real fans running the asylums for a long time now.

[Metahuman1]

I'm a long time spiderman fan. And you know what, it would be the first time I've ever scene a main universe story line were in he's actually consistently winning with out massive sacrifices to get there, and even more so since he's not just winning against villain of the story arch, he's actually getting life together and moving forward with it, becoming successful and getting over his demons.


And as for being targeted, well, Ante May is dead, Canon if I remember correctly is that everyone else in his life of importance is either themselves super or dead. Except Mary Jane and the Daughter he didn't get the chance to have. The latter can very easily be dealt with similarly to how he handled Stark. He goes to Fury, and mentions that guess what, I could have this organization destroyed with a quarter the things I've learned about it over the time I've been in the hero game and never blabbed about, and I've saved your bacon so many times I've lost count. Your gonna do one thing for me. Cover my kid. Make sure that when Sandman and Hobgoblin and Doc Oc and Craven and Hydroman show up, there aiming for me or Mary Jane simply because they can't get a clean shot at the kids until the kids can defend themselves.

Then of course as the kids get older, they get powers and can freaking look after themselves when they get to a certain point.

And as for MJ, well, everyone else who isn't presently dead in his life has had something super happen to them at some point. Everyone except MJ. Why not let her get in on the act just for craps and giggles. I personally think a Symbiote and finding out she's got a Mutant X Gene that causes her body to automatically override the problems with having one of the symbiotes but keeps them locked too you for the benefits would be a way to go that would be unexpected. (Unless it's canon that the Symbiotes work on her just like everyone else. In which case need something else to work with.) And hey, guess what, she's no longer stuck as the constant damsel in distress. I think the only other Time I've seen that angle with her was Mangaverse.



Now, the problem with is is having to do it to ALL of these characters that are making people beat there heads against the nearest wall/desk/tree/ext.

Stark needs it. Cap Needs it (Less so but still there.), The entirety of the X-men Line needs it with the arguable exception of Deadpool (Who Is arguable cause I don't think he's technically considered a member of there roster.), The Avengers Team needs it, Dr. Strange Needs it, Hulk could get away with out it, Daredevil maybe if we've at least fixed the whole "It's a confirmed fact that he's Matt Mardock" problem, Thor is more or less perfectly in character up to this point and has been one of Marvels remaining Highlights so he's fine, Hank Pym Desperately needs it, and in his case, I maintain that a ground up reboot or a very final death are really the only ways his problems end in a way that is satisfactory,

Yeah, that's 6 to 3 out of nine that really need it, just off the top of my head.

[Eakin]

Should be noted there have been plenty real fans running the asylums for a long time now.

Indeed. The relationship between comic book fans and comic book publishers is a rather toxic, incestuous, and codependent one. That was kind of my point in responding to Meta's idea of how you could satisfyingly conclude Peter Parker's story. Comic book 'culture' (and I use the term loosly, as I'm lukewarm on the idea of [medium] culture in general) wouldn't let you make a permanent or even lasting change.

I firmly believe that the best way to tell a good story is to ignore the fans who think they know what they want. They don't, and you'll end up catering to a whiny minority opinion.

But you can probably tell from this thread so far that I'm rather cynical towards comic books in general. I'm reading the last couple pages of the Celestia vs. Superman thread and I just can't help noticing how DUMB they sound.

[Metahuman1]

Indeed. The relationship between comic book fans and comic book publishers is a rather toxic, incestuous, and codependent one. That was kind of my point in responding to Meta's idea of how you could satisfyingly conclude Peter Parker's story. Comic book 'culture' (and I use the term loosly, as I'm lukewarm on the idea of [medium] culture in general) wouldn't let you make a permanent or even lasting change.

I firmly believe that the best way to tell a good story is to ignore the fans who think they know what they want. They don't, and you'll end up catering to a whiny minority opinion.

But you can probably tell from this thread so far that I'm rather cynical towards comic books in general. I'm reading the last couple pages of the Celestia vs. Superman thread and I just can't help noticing how DUMB they sound.

To be fair, most of the something vs. pony's threads are like that, no matter what the ponies are facing. More so since they often assume a lot of fanon for the pony's, or just make up the rules for them on the spot.

And you can make a lasting change. Oracle stayed in the wheelchair for 23+ years before the current Reboot. Do you know how many ground shaking changes other none comic book franchises under went in the mean time while she was still in that chair?

[Jayngfet]

Should be noted there have been plenty real fans running the asylums for a long time now.

This is, in essence, the problem. Editorial loves enforcing their idea of what comics should be based on their childhood.

A new generation of editorial will just have more clumsy retcons and more originals and shoehorning in their dead or retconned favorites.

We don't need any more of that.

[The Glyphstone]

To be fair, most of the something vs. pony's threads are like that, no matter what the ponies are facing. More so since they often assume a lot of fanon for the pony's, or just make up the rules for them on the spot.

And you can make a lasting change. Oracle stayed in the wheelchair for 23+ years before the current Reboot. Do you know how many ground shaking changes other none comic book franchises under went in the mean time while she was still in that chair?

I'm pretty sure he was talking about the Superman side, not the Ponyside, since the context of this discussion is comics over the years, and the last few pages of that thread are mainly about Superman's ridiculously broad spread of power from the merely Super to the beyond-god-tier, thanks to so many different writers.

[Metahuman1]

I'm pretty sure he was talking about the Superman side, not the Ponyside, since the context of this discussion is comics over the years, and the last few pages of that thread are mainly about Superman's ridiculously broad spread of power from the merely Super to the beyond-god-tier, thanks to so many different writers.

I'd offer a retort, but I'm not eager to let this derail into Superman vs. Celestia: Thread the Second.

[Eakin]

I'm pretty sure he was talking about the Superman side, not the Ponyside, since the context of this discussion is comics over the years, and the last few pages of that thread are mainly about Superman's ridiculously broad spread of power from the merely Super to the beyond-god-tier, thanks to so many different writers.

I did mean that. I don't think Supes is a bad character, and he's been around for a long time. I'm saying that a long running story with many different people spinning it according to their interpretations decayed pretty badly at several points. Stories have to end, and stay ended. That doesn't even mean you can't go back later and flesh out the middle but DC/Marvel's big names have institutionalized a refusal to do this.


I'd offer a retort, but I'm not eager to let this derail into Superman vs. Celestia: Thread the Second.

Indeed, I have no desire to get into that discussion so if you want me to drop it I'm happy to

[Soras Teva Gee]

Indeed. The relationship between comic book fans and comic book publishers is a rather toxic, incestuous, and codependent one. That was kind of my point in responding to Meta's idea of how you could satisfyingly conclude Peter Parker's story. Comic book 'culture' (and I use the term loosly, as I'm lukewarm on the idea of [medium] culture in general) wouldn't let you make a permanent or even lasting change.

I firmly believe that the best way to tell a good story is to ignore the fans who think they know what they want. They don't, and you'll end up catering to a whiny minority opinion.

I'm increasingly coming to that opinion fandom is a terrible, terrible place to listen to for ideas.

However comics seem to be particularly insular and worse... have a reputation for it. I can't speak for the accuracy of the reporting but I've been poking around sales figures (http://www.comichron.com/yearlycomicssales.html) for awhile now.

Here's the last decade in dollars:



Year |Total Market Est.|Diamond's Sales (comic shops)
2002 $300-330 million n/a
2003 $350-400 million $310.6 million
2004 $420-480 million $328.25 million
2005 $475-550 million $352.33 million
2006 $575-640 million $395.55 million
2007 $660-700 million $430.00 million
2008 $680-710 million $436.6 million
2009 $650-700 million $428 million
2010 $660-690 million $419 million
2011 $660-690 million $414 million

Note that comics distribution to your local comic shop is a monopoly so that last is basically what your dedicated stores have made. The rest is your bookstores and grocers and the like

So there's been some gains over the last decade, but seems to peak on the overall, with relatively flat overall estimations and a slide in the past five years on the comics shop end. Crappy economy maybe? Of course its probably also something of a statement that an entire year worth of publishing can equal to just a single movie.

Here's the stat that really got me though on that page. This one I will quote a little farther back since it is listed as an estimate while the first dropped off. Here's the actual books sold by numbers apparently:



1997 100.32 million copies
1998 84.45 million copies
1999 78.08 million copies
2000 69.26 million copies
2001 66.92 million copies
2002 70.27 million copies
2003 73.02 million copies
2004 74.14 million copies
2005 76.13 million copies
2006 81.85 million copies
2007 85.27 million copies
2008 81.34 million copies
2009 74.88 million copies
2010 69.20 million copies
2011 72.13 million copies

Okay now let's write off the first few as part of the '90s comic bubble.

Now consider though the sale figures and that comics have increased their cover price per book in the last decade.

Oh ****.

I don't know about you but I see (though I'm seriously no statistician) a flat market. A decade filled with superhero movies has done their source material almost no good. I'm not claiming scientific fact but... I see stagnancy, I start thinking the market is dead and just waiting for the bottom to fallout.

Another interesting fact I found poking around... anyone care to guess what the highest selling comic of the last five year was?

How about all five?

[Metahuman1]

I did mean that. I don't think Supes is a bad character, and he's been around for a long time. I'm saying that a long running story with many different people spinning it according to their interpretations decayed pretty badly at several points. Stories have to end, and stay ended. That doesn't even mean you can't go back later and flesh out the middle but DC/Marvel's big names have institutionalized a refusal to do this.



Indeed, I have no desire to get into that discussion so if you want me to drop it I'm happy to

In some of there cases, this is not inherently a problem. Some theme's, some characters, some story's are timeless. People will be reading The Lord of the Rings, Stranger in a Strange Land, Conan the Barbarian Stories, Harry Potter, King Aurthur, Robin Hood, basically forever. And Comic book Mythos has a pretty hefty share of such figures. Superman. Batman. Captain America. Spider man. Theme's of Sacrifice, Duty, Honor, Courage, Patriotism*, Justice, Responsibility, morality, these are things people will always want to hear tales of, to have that comfort of aspiring to those lofty ideals, even if they fall short.

That is why many of these characters are still here, cause if it wasn't these things and we take the notion that the big thing the company's publishing them care about is money, then they would have lost this incentive and stopped telling the tales of these characters a long time ago.



*I'll give you that this one is 1: Most heavily tied to Captain America, above even the likes of superman, and 2: Not necessarily a major selling point for everyone. But given the out cry when he died at the end of civil war I can't imagine that it's a none factor yet.

[Jayngfet]

I'm increasingly coming to that opinion fandom is a terrible, terrible place to listen to for ideas.

However comics seem to be particularly insular and worse... have a reputation for it. I can't speak for the accuracy of the reporting but I've been poking around sales figures (http://www.comichron.com/yearlycomicssales.html) for awhile now.

Here's the last decade in dollars:



Note that comics distribution to your local comic shop is a monopoly so that last is basically what your dedicated stores have made. The rest is your bookstores and grocers and the like

So there's been some gains over the last decade, but seems to peak on the overall, with relatively flat overall estimations and a slide in the past five years on the comics shop end. Crappy economy maybe? Of course its probably also something of a statement that an entire year worth of publishing can equal to just a single movie.

Here's the stat that really got me though on that page. This one I will quote a little farther back since it is listed as an estimate while the first dropped off. Here's the actual books sold by numbers apparently:



Okay now let's write off the first few as part of the '90s comic bubble.

Now consider though the sale figures and that comics have increased their cover price per book in the last decade.

Oh ****.

I don't know about you but I see (though I'm seriously no statistician) a flat market. A decade filled with superhero movies has done their source material almost no good. I'm not claiming scientific fact but... I see stagnancy, I start thinking the market is dead and just waiting for the bottom to fallout.

Another interesting fact I found poking around... anyone care to guess what the highest selling comic of the last five year was?

How about all five?

These numbers show a whole lot, especially the sales numbers vs revenue with it's apparent contradiction.

In the last decade, comic prices have almost doubled for single issues, going from about 2.25 to about 3.99 each.

French comics (http://www.bleedingcool.com/forums/comic-book-forum/53260-french-comics-market-2011-a.html) are doing reasonably well for a market that offers more bang for buck, and doesn't rely on trumped up events. Shonen Jump (http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2011/12/19/one-piece-tops-2011-manga-sales) is blowing everything else out of the water. In the context of the american comics market, Archie (http://comicsworthreading.com/2012/03/09/archie-sales-figures-for-2011/)actually sells kinda respectably, without relying on specialty stores or inter-comic ads so heavily or a lot of big events.

While all of these have had some general price increases over the years, they're nothing compared to what the specialty store market DC, Marvel, IDW, and Image all try to compete for. The companies that make up the bulk of Diamonds information know they're losing customers, and instead of bringing in new people, they just price gouge who they have left and try to make big events to bring in lapsed readers.

[Eakin]

I'm increasingly coming to that opinion fandom is a terrible, terrible place to listen to for ideas.

However comics seem to be particularly insular and worse... have a reputation for it. I can't speak for the accuracy of the reporting but I've been poking around sales figures (http://www.comichron.com/yearlycomicssales.html) for awhile now.

Here's the last decade:

---NUMBERS!---

I don't know about you but I see (though I'm seriously no statistician) a flat market. A decade filled with superhero movies has done their source material almost no good. I'm not claiming scientific fact but... I see stagnancy, I start thinking the market is dead and just waiting for the bottom to fallout.

Another interesting fact I found poking around... anyone care to guess what the highest selling comic of the last five year was?

How about all five?

Have you read Steve Job's biography? He was a huge jackass, but the man had a vision and knew how to use it.


"It's really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them."
-- BusinessWeek, May 25 1998

I've always had the sense that comic book fandoms were an insular and aging culture with a large barrier to entry and fairly minimal appear to a younger generation. Video games/TV do raw escapism better, and actual books and literature do interesting ideas better. I don't think it's any surprise that most of the people still regularly buying comics are people who picked up the habit when they were younger, but I'm glad the numbers bear that out.

And top comic of the last 5 years? I'm assuming it's something you wouldn't expect, like Archie or something.


In some of there cases, this is not inherently a problem. Some theme's, some characters, some story's are timeless. People will be reading The Lord of the Rings, Stranger in a Strange Land, Conan the Barbarian Stories, Harry Potter, King Aurthur, Robin Hood, basically forever. And Comic book Mythos has a pretty hefty share of such figures. Superman. Batman. Captain America. Spider man. Theme's of Sacrifice, Duty, Honor, Courage, Patriotism*, Justice, Responsibility, morality, these are things people will always want to hear tales of, to have that comfort of aspiring to those lofty ideals, even if they fall short.

That is why many of these characters are still here, cause if it wasn't these things and we take the notion that the big thing the company's publishing them care about is money, then they would have lost this incentive and stopped telling the tales of these characters a long time ago.



*I'll give you that this one is 1: Most heavily tied to Captain America, above even the likes of superman, and 2: Not necessarily a major selling point for everyone. But given the out cry when he died at the end of civil war I can't imagine that it's a none factor yet.

Those classic stories do indeed have legs. They also ended a long time ago. Most of them are only a few books long. Any of them could be told in their entirety in a lot less time than you would need to catch up on the continuity of any one superhero, much less the tangled nexus that is the entire DC or Marvel universes.

The important superhero archetype stories that are really going to resonate into the future? Those have been told. They were told decades ago. You could lose everything from, say, the end of the silver age to the present without any impact to the longevity of the characters.

[Soras Teva Gee]

French comics (http://www.bleedingcool.com/forums/comic-book-forum/53260-french-comics-market-2011-a.html) are doing reasonably well for a market that offers more bang for buck, and doesn't rely on trumped up events. Shonen Jump (http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2011/12/19/one-piece-tops-2011-manga-sales) is blowing everything else out of the water. In the context of the american comics market, Archie (http://comicsworthreading.com/2012/03/09/archie-sales-figures-for-2011/)actually sells kinda respectably, without relying on specialty stores or inter-comic ads so heavily or a lot of big events.

Going by rough head estimations it seems One Piece probablys outsells the entire American industry by raw numbers. Given that's a strong aberration, but poking around I you would have the top selling American comics coming in the low 30s or 40s on that list. Its the rare book that can break 100k to even get on that list.

Knew it was bad but yeesh.


While all of these have had some general price increases over the years, they're nothing compared to what the specialty store market DC, Marvel, IDW, and Image all try to compete for. The companies that make up the bulk of Diamonds information know they're losing customers, and instead of bringing in new people, they just price gouge who they have left and try to make big events to bring in lapsed readers.

Seems to be about the pace of it.

Of course it keeps working too. To use that term lightly.


Have you read Steve Job's biography? He was a huge jackass, but the man had a vision and knew how to use it.

Agreed.


I've always had the sense that comic book fandoms were an insular and aging culture with a large barrier to entry and fairly minimal appear to a younger generation. Video games/TV do raw escapism better, and actual books and literature do interesting ideas better. I don't think it's any surprise that most of the people still regularly buying comics are people who picked up the habit when they were younger, but I'm glad the numbers bear that out.

Well there is some turn over in there, but merely replacing your losses isn't a winning strategy.

It suggests to me there's something systemically wrong with comics. There's obviously pop-cultural interest in the concept of superheroes... but nothing translating that to actual material.

That says there is something putting people off. And I'm not sure its reflected by what the fans think is the problem.


And top comic of the last 5 years? I'm assuming it's something you wouldn't expect, like Archie or something.

Nope. You could have reason to guess but its also rather telling who the winner is:


http://static.flickr.com/3468/3235338059_e40838e45d.jpg

For full context this issue sold an estimated 352,847 copies sold. This alone puts it 60k above the Death of Captain America at 290,497 copies. And this goes near as I can tell unrivaled until this year's Walking Dead #100 which sold an impressive 335,082 copies. Of course Obama/Spidey went on in the month after for the reprints to lead sales by a hefty margin adding 148,778 copies to its sales

Those two titles are near as I can tell the only comics to break 300k this millennium.

Neither is what you'd call a regular comic book story.

[HairyGuy4]

When the character you like the most in the new BatFamily is freaking Jason Todd, you know there is something wrong. They screwed all Robins, even resetting Damian's personality to pre-Batman & Robin levels.
Seriously, Bruce should have stayed dead and **** should be Batman. Search it in your mind. You know it to be true. /rant

But yeah, I might read this as well.

AHAHA! the forum bleeps out DI CK. Even when used in a fair context. Poor **** Grayson. His parents should have named him Richard.

[Jayngfet]

Of course it keeps working too. To use that term lightly.



"Working" is much less emphasized than "lightly" here.

I mean, lets be honest, the way they're attracting new or lapsed readers right now is entirely unsustainable. You can't just reboot like the New 52 did every five years or so, and the drama from events is quickly wearing off considering how both sides are playing it so regularly(Green Lantern in particular has devolved into a long string of mostly identical events and a constantly updating roster of flat characters).

I mean, it's getting to the point where A list characters can't reliably have any stakes for them. I mean Batgirl and Professor X are both walking again. The Human Torch was dead less than a year and Hal Jordan less than two issues. Jason Todd and Bucky used to be the ONLY dead heroes you could count on to stay dead and in the last few years they both got their own ongoing and are still around. Even background members of the Green Lantern Corps are pretty much guaranteed to survive if they've existed more than ten years, and don't get an on screen death. Even Uncle Ben got brought back for a short time this year!

The only character that springs to mind as not having her unsavory bits swept away is Mia Dearden, and I think if she weren't the sidekick of a B-Listers legacy variant the writers would probably put the effort in to do that.

I mean it's going to get to the point where even the most excited fans are going to question why they want to read about a character who can't die, can't be crippled, can barely get sick, can't grow old or have children(or more accurately, can't raise their own children. A characters offspring tend to get whisked away and come back with their own powers or skills), and any relationship they have will be broken up the moment a writer or editor leaves.

Lets be honest, can you imagine Batman dying in this next event(and not coming back within at least six months)? Hell, that's so much of a joke thanks to Batman having his own built in come-back-to-life mechanic let's ask if you can imagine Batman taking on a horrible disfiguring facial scar that isn't just a couple of neat lines? Can you even imagine him breaking his arm in about five different places and it needing years to recover despite fighting monsters and stuff all the time?

[Scowling Dragon]

Im still sickened at the resurrection of Batgirl.

You know why? Ever since I read the blog post of a wheelchair-bound blogger my heart sank.

The Oracle was one of the only truly disabled heroes. She didn't have some superpower to make her disability completely pointless. Oracle was an inspiration for her, and what they did truly made her heart sink.

But no: Salesfigures need a boost.

The Main Duo are so stuck in a rut of static unchanged.

People harp on One more day for destroying Peters marriage, but in reality it destroyed all the last developments in SpiderMan period. He may as well have been a highschooler.

[Jayngfet]

Im still sickened at the resurrection of Batgirl.

You know why? Ever since I read the blog post of a wheelchair-bound blogger my heart sank.

The Oracle was one of the only truly disabled heroes. She didn't have some superpower to make her disability completely pointless. Oracle was an inspiration for her, and what they did truly made her heart sink.

Disabled heroes have been shafted recently.

Barbra Gordon and Prof. X can both walk again.

Mia Dearden is retconned out, meaning there are zero HIV positive capes out there.

Donald Blake is depowered.

Dr. Mid-Nite isn't in continuity anymore.

Captain Marvel Jr. is also out of continuity.

Hell, even things that aren't disabilities like just being overweight get less representation since Blob and Amanda Waller are both trim and fit.

[ThiagoMartell]

I'd just like to mention Turma da Mônica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monica_Teen) Jovem (http://www.paninicomics.com.br/web/guest/titulos_detail?category_id=154752). It's a brazilian comic that outsells all of DC/Marvel books. Every single month.
Remember when DC said Justice League #1 was "the best-selling comic in America"? They lied. :smallamused:

[Scowling Dragon]

Hell, even things that aren't disabilities like just being overweight get less representation since Blob and Amanda Waller are both trim and fit.

Oh and WALLER. Oh dear god waller.

Maybe BatGirl can be argued. But WALLER? That was just inexcusable.

Blob is just his villain shtick. But waller was a really interesting character and her weight has nothing to do with a villain shtick.

The person that did what they did to waller: **** you. Or screw the corporate executives that did this to her.

Its Ironic that in order to be a Corporate executive you must have absolutely NO love for the thing your executive-ing.

What horrible life it must be For a corporate exec. You must have no love for anything at all, otherwise you have only people like yourself to blame for the destruction of the things you love.

Or maybe Corp Execs simply have no emotions.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I honestly am not bothered at all by Barbara Gordon walking again.

And hoping I can make this not sound absolutely horrible, but being disabled like she was is a medical condition less something "you are" and more something "your have" which I feel is missed to make it like being another minority to be represented. In the media world I feel some very important nuance is lost in the drive to go all after-school special touchy-feely and affirming that "its alright" or something. I feel this kinda misses something.

While yes it is limited increasingly IRL there are ways and means to treat and reduce disabilities. And its something medicine seems to be getting better at all the time. Just this year there was the double amputee that competed in London. Different case entirely yes, but paralysis is not always irreversible. Without being some kind of fantastic magical plot device reality will never hope to have. If you believe Gail Simone (http://www.newsarama.com/comics/gail-simone-batgirl-cure-revelations-120111.html) the specifics she ended up using were based on real things she discovered researching the matter.

So it irks me when I hear comic fans harping on just that angle in particular. This is something that can change. I would never want it to be gone and forgotten, and I can't speak to the final product as a story, but its conceptually something that can change and enrich the character for that. Having to deal with not having a quick and easy recovery but that being disabled is not some absolute thing you must accept either. That's an idea that interests me.

The problem that people don't seem to harp on nearly as much is that Oracle is possibly one of the few supers that has actually become more relevant since inception. Not as "oh see how even in a wheel chair Babs is still a hero" but by being well an information agent in the information age. I've no objection to some occasional fieldwork, but beating up thugs in Gotham versus being perhaps one of the best axis the heroes of DCU can revolve around? There's the real loss, and one I've not heard a thing about how or if it was ever addressed in the story.

There's another side too though. At lot of the rants about I dare say seem symptomatic of the same meta-decay that caused the issue in the first place. The older-gen fans that run Arkham and the public at large see's Barbara Gordon as Batgirl because its what they grew up with. While the current-gen of fans grew up (as readers even if not with age) with the whole evolution of Batgirl to Cassandra and the rest... and both have in many ways put a different idealized statue on the same pedestal. Something IS the way it should be and terror and woe to those that would change it.

Me heck I'd probably have done both at the same time, have a single character maintaining two discrete personas for different purposes.

[Jayngfet]

Oh and WALLER. Oh dear god waller.

Maybe BatGirl can be argued. But WALLER? That was just inexcusable.

Blob is just his villain shtick. But waller was a really interesting character and her weight has nothing to do with a villain shtick.

The person that did what they did to waller: **** you. Or screw the corporate executives that did this to her.

Its Ironic that in order to be a Corporate executive you must have absolutely NO love for the thing your executive-ing.

What horrible life it must be For a corporate exec. You must have no love for anything at all, otherwise you have only people like yourself to blame for the destruction of the things you love.

Or maybe Corp Execs simply have no emotions.

The exact opposite is DC's problem. They outright refuse to think with their heads. Barbra is Batgirl because they grew up with it. Same for so many other changes, outside of say, Jamie as the Blue Beetle, which is pretty much also just because the guy is liked by the current editorial.

Amanda Waller is more a stupid, stupid one off thing than a calculated move.



I honestly am not bothered at all by Barbara Gordon walking again.

And hoping I can make this not sound absolutely horrible, but being disabled like she was is a medical condition less something "you are" and more something "your have" which I feel is missed to make it like being another minority to be represented. In the media world I feel some very important nuance is lost in the drive to go all after-school special touchy-feely and affirming that "its alright" or something. I feel this kinda misses something.

While yes it is limited increasingly IRL there are ways and means to treat and reduce disabilities. And its something medicine seems to be getting better at all the time. Just this year there was the double amputee that competed in London. Different case entirely yes, but paralysis is not always irreversible. Without being some kind of fantastic magical plot device reality will never hope to have. If you believe Gail Simone the specifics she ended up using were based on real things she discovered researching the matter.

So it irks me when I hear comic fans harping on just that angle in particular. This is something that can change. I would never want it to be gone and forgotten, and I can't speak to the final product as a story, but its conceptually something that can change and enrich the character for that. Having to deal with not having a quick and easy recovery but that being disabled is not some absolute thing you must accept either. That's an idea that interests me.

The problem that people don't seem to harp on nearly as much is that Oracle is possibly one of the few supers that has actually become more relevant since inception. Not as "oh see how even in a wheel chair Babs is still a hero" but by being well an information agent in the information age. I've no objection to some occasional fieldwork, but beating up thugs in Gotham versus being perhaps one of the best axis the heroes of DCU can revolve around? There's the real loss, and one I've not heard a thing about how or if it was ever addressed in the story.

There's another side too though. At lot of the rants about I dare say seem symptomatic of the same meta-decay that caused the issue in the first place. The older-gen fans that run Arkham and the public at large see's Barbara Gordon as Batgirl because its what they grew up with. While the current-gen of fans grew up (as readers even if not with age) with the whole evolution of Batgirl to Cassandra and the rest... and both have in many ways put a different idealized statue on the same pedestal. Something IS the way it should be and terror and woe to those that would change it.

Me heck I'd probably have done both at the same time, have a single character maintaining two discrete personas for different purposes.


The problem isn't just that she's Batgirl again, but that she was evidently never Oracle either. They didn't just give her back her legs, they took away every single thing she actually achieved without them.

[Soras Teva Gee]

The problem isn't just that she's Batgirl again, but that she was evidently never Oracle either. They didn't just give her back her legs, they took away every single thing she actually achieved without them.

I can't answer if that got lost in the final product but the answer at one point one was that she did act as Oracle.

Ctrl+F Oracle (http://www.newsarama.com/comics/dcnu-the-new-52-retailer-info-110701.html)

(And from the other link I had Gail Simone alludes to it, sincerly doubt she's forgotten the matter)

[Jayngfet]

I can't answer if that got lost in the final product but the answer at one point one was that she did act as Oracle.

Ctrl+F Oracle (http://www.newsarama.com/comics/dcnu-the-new-52-retailer-info-110701.html)

(And from the other link I had Gail Simone alludes to it, sincerly doubt she's forgotten the matter)

The problem is that, especially with Batman related stuff, canon is loose even after the New 52 began. If you want any examples just look at the whole Tim Drake ordeal from the early issues all the way til now. Or hell, for a non batman example, try to figure out how Earth got six or seven lanterns within five years while it's somehow still considered this big honor to be a corpsman.

It's entirely possible that someone told her to stop, or it just hasn't been formally written in yet.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Your examples if I'm not mistaken are all coming from the two parts of the DCU that somehow got to retain much of their current events yes. Nothing like waffling to undermine the whole idea...

I mean I only sampled but what I sampled was Superman-centric and I found that "if he's wearing the undies, put it aside" to be a serviceable and straightforward answer for essentially all questions of canon.

I feel that while the alternative has not been developed, at least not for both sets of residents, but that "canon" as a concept has had a good run, but isn't as useful as it used to be. And is maybe starting to foam at the mouth.

Though in Barbara's case yeah, if you are going to have events beforehand still take place they need to be clearly there, even if its only a brief answer to set the broad picture and specify things as you go along.

[Metahuman1]

I honestly am not bothered at all by Barbara Gordon walking again.

And hoping I can make this not sound absolutely horrible, but being disabled like she was is a medical condition less something "you are" and more something "your have" which I feel is missed to make it like being another minority to be represented. In the media world I feel some very important nuance is lost in the drive to go all after-school special touchy-feely and affirming that "its alright" or something. I feel this kinda misses something.

While yes it is limited increasingly IRL there are ways and means to treat and reduce disabilities. And its something medicine seems to be getting better at all the time. Just this year there was the double amputee that competed in London. Different case entirely yes, but paralysis is not always irreversible. Without being some kind of fantastic magical plot device reality will never hope to have. If you believe Gail Simone (http://www.newsarama.com/comics/gail-simone-batgirl-cure-revelations-120111.html) the specifics she ended up using were based on real things she discovered researching the matter.

So it irks me when I hear comic fans harping on just that angle in particular. This is something that can change. I would never want it to be gone and forgotten, and I can't speak to the final product as a story, but its conceptually something that can change and enrich the character for that. Having to deal with not having a quick and easy recovery but that being disabled is not some absolute thing you must accept either. That's an idea that interests me.

The problem that people don't seem to harp on nearly as much is that Oracle is possibly one of the few supers that has actually become more relevant since inception. Not as "oh see how even in a wheel chair Babs is still a hero" but by being well an information agent in the information age. I've no objection to some occasional fieldwork, but beating up thugs in Gotham versus being perhaps one of the best axis the heroes of DCU can revolve around? There's the real loss, and one I've not heard a thing about how or if it was ever addressed in the story.

There's another side too though. At lot of the rants about I dare say seem symptomatic of the same meta-decay that caused the issue in the first place. The older-gen fans that run Arkham and the public at large see's Barbara Gordon as Batgirl because its what they grew up with. While the current-gen of fans grew up (as readers even if not with age) with the whole evolution of Batgirl to Cassandra and the rest... and both have in many ways put a different idealized statue on the same pedestal. Something IS the way it should be and terror and woe to those that would change it.

Me heck I'd probably have done both at the same time, have a single character maintaining two discrete personas for different purposes.

Personally, as I think I've stated at some point during this discussion, my idea would be to do a four or Five Volume Mini series, similar to Frank Miller's Batman Trilogy in the 80's, about Barbara recovering form the injury and Cassie Cain filling the Gap as Batgirl in the mean time, that ends with a Launch of a Black Bat Series for Cassie Cain.


In the mean time, in Barbara's regular comic, just show her getting increasingly unsatisfied with the Batgirl identity. While your doing that, start having Stephanie Brown hang out in the back ground. Eventually, the climax of this segment of her re-development is she throws the costume away, and Stephanie picks it up, while she reestablishes her info networking.

And then, after some time has elapsed, she get's restless again. Yeah, the info broker thing is great, and she's not giving it up again, but she wishes she had the chance to smack Penguin in the face from time to time again.

And instead of trying to balance a triple life as a costumed vigilante/info broker/Barbara Gordon, we actually introduce a nifty little development in her dad. She actually get's him to let her sign up with GCPD. Thus, she get's to be out on the streets, taking down thugs, albeit with a bit less freedom to operate as she might have enjoyed as batgirl, but enough that she can still usually be there to help when she really feels she needs it, and that she can put some thugs behind bars semi-regularly. And she's still getting to be a major player in the information age, as an info broker.


And during the time that all this plays out, you have Stephanie brown as Batgirl for while. And Cassie Cain has had that one last outing in the costume and is back in a different costume. That's fine for awhile, though eventually, at about the same time that we fix the Tim Drake/Damien Wayne problem, I'd like to see her step down and either dawn a new costume herself or barring that have her just decide to get out of the trenches.

Thus making room for a genuinely new Batgirl and Robin.

[Jayngfet]

Your examples if I'm not mistaken are all coming from the two parts of the DCU that somehow got to retain much of their current events yes. Nothing like waffling to undermine the whole idea...

I mean I only sampled but what I sampled was Superman-centric and I found that "if he's wearing the undies, put it aside" to be a serviceable and straightforward answer for essentially all questions of canon.

I feel that while the alternative has not been developed, at least not for both sets of residents, but that "canon" as a concept has had a good run, but isn't as useful as it used to be. And is maybe starting to foam at the mouth.

Though in Barbara's case yeah, if you are going to have events beforehand still take place they need to be clearly there, even if its only a brief answer to set the broad picture and specify things as you go along.

Counting one 'verse out of the DC multiverse, then counting only what happens only in "present time"(As, now and not centuries in the future or past), you'll find that Lantern and Bat stuff makes about a third of DC's current lineup.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Counting one 'verse out of the DC multiverse, then counting only what happens only in "present time"(As, now and not centuries in the future or past), you'll find that Lantern and Bat stuff makes about a third of DC's current lineup.

Why discard the alternate times and places? They are being published yes?

However I believe that is probably all a better demonstration of the problem.

There is something to be said for the idea of a reboot as a way out of the funk comics are in but it has to BE one. Clean break.

To date that hasn't happened in comics far as I know. Even COIE was a mixed case with Barry on the one hand and Kara on the other.

[Man on Fire]

The only good way to do reboot is to not do it at all.

And Jayngfet - no reason counting out comic from past and future, there are all 4 of them, they don't change much.

[Metahuman1]

Random Ontopic thought: Story's that have a start, Middle, End are being touted as better, but some of these best sellers still don't have that. There's so many Legends and stories of King Arther or Robin Hood that counting them all is impossible, Story's of other characters Like Conan or Red Sonja are still being written here and there as far as I know, and no, I'm not just talking comics either, The Walking dead is still an ongoing thing with no end in sight, as are a number of best selling novel series, and even One Piece, now sighted in the discussion as the best selling comic in the world, is up to what, over 1000 eps in the animated series, and thousands and thousands and thousands of Chapters of the adventure so this group and still there not really any closer to there stated objective then when they started, with no end in sight.

So, yeah, the ongoing thing is not inherently impossible to pull off.



Also, a Reboot could well have worked. All they had to do was either have a clear cut plan for the clutter, or have just written it so that the clutter was already dealt with. Think for example how much smoother it would have been if Black Bat had just been a starting member of the line up, Tim Drakes Past had not been re-written (Badly.), Stephanie Brown had been left as Batgirl, or written to have either been starting her knew Identity or having just gotten out of the field, Damian had been reconnected out of existence, ***** past had just had some minor adjustments since a circus is a bit dated but maybe something TV related could have had the same effect, and we were starting off with a brand new Robin and Batgirl, With Good old Barbara Gordon having regain use of her legs and then having joined GCPD and splitting her time between that and operating off the clock as Oracle, something she started after she first got into the wheelchair and wasn't giving up just cause she could throw a drop kick again.

[Jayngfet]

Why discard the alternate times and places? They are being published yes?

However I believe that is probably all a better demonstration of the problem.

There is something to be said for the idea of a reboot as a way out of the funk comics are in but it has to BE one. Clean break.

To date that hasn't happened in comics far as I know. Even COIE was a mixed case with Barry on the one hand and Kara on the other.

The idea behind discarding AU/Future/Past stuff is to show what's happening right this second in the main universe in the contemporary times of DC comics.

These are the comics that matter most, continuity wise because their effects are viewed elsewhere almost immediately. They "count more" in the sense that they're the most related. If you're judging a continuity snarl then I'm of the opinion it's the most efficient way to do it.

If you count future, past, AU, and Non Canon books Batman and Green Lantern, related characters(Excluding knockoffs like Green Arrow), the number of Batbooks and Lanternbooks is actually over 20(somewhere between 20 and 25, depending on what you think "counts"). Going by sheer density books featuring these characters make up over 20% of DC's total monthly stuff. This again, doesn't include knockoffs like Green Arrow, and it doesn't include one off appearances where Batman shows up for a couple of issues but doesn't do much like Earth-2 or JLI.