[PF] Help me make four overpowered, cheesy, optimized Characters

[Crustypeanut]

Hay guys, me again for yet another thread.. this time I need your help with optimization.

Two of my players, whom I've been speaking with, are very against Psionics in Pathfinder due to its apparent overpoweredness. Despite my attempts at proving them that Core is just as overpowered, if not more so, they're stubborn (Though I understand why)

Anyways, I've come up with a solution that we may end up doing that'll prove to them that **** hits the fan at higher levels no matter what you are. So, we're possibly going to be doing a 4v4 arena matchup between my four highly-optimized, cheesy Core-Rulebook-Only characters and their four highly-optimized, cheesy, and 'overpowered' Psionic Characters. Plus, it'll be fun just to see how crazy things get at those levels anyways, since none of us have gotten past level 12 or so, and even then, only once (As far as I know), and only because we started at level 10.

So I come to you - help me create four cheesy, optimized, and insane characters at level 15-20 (Haven't decided yet), using only the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.

I'll probably stick with tier 1 classes for the most part, so Wizard/Druid/Cleric, and I'm not sure for the 4th guy. I dont' want to build the exact same characters for all four, though.

Thoughts? Tips? Shennanigans? Past stories on how someone broke something so hard it made you cry? Hit me with it.. I'll be coming up with my own ideas in the mean time (If I don't fall asleep from being up since 10 pm yesterday..)

We'll be doing this not only so I can prove them wrong (or they can prove me wrong, which I doubt), but also as a friendly ****-flinging ****-fest at high levels. So there won't be any hard feelings on either side.

[grarrrg]

...Core is just as overpowered
...
Core-Rulebook-Only characters...
...only the Pathfinder Core Rulebook....

Well, I had some ideas, but this pretty much killed them.
I'm out.

[Crustypeanut]

Well, I had some ideas, but this pretty much killed them.
I'm out.


What were your ideas?

[maximus25]

Wouldn't it be better one on one?

With 4 v 4, you could just have 4 wizards that all work together to boost their effective caster level and cast some crazy high powered spell. Or 4 clerics to do cleric stuff together all at the same time.

Doesn't really showcase the Core only character powers, just that 4 high level characters will beat 4 other high level characters if they are built in x specific way.

[Crustypeanut]

Wouldn't it be better one on one?

With 4 v 4, you could just have 4 wizards that all work together to boost their effective caster level and cast some crazy high powered spell. Or 4 clerics to do cleric stuff together all at the same time.

Doesn't really showcase the Core only character powers, just that 4 high level characters will beat 4 other high level characters if they are built in x specific way.

Hmm.. good point. I guess that is a better idea. Well, I'll throw the idea at them, I don't think they'll object to it.

[PinkysBrain]

I'd avoid level 19-20 because of capstone abilities, also level 15 because not getting the last iterative as a full BAB class is just annoying ... I'd also keep it as low level as possible, so 16. Although personally I'd just do level 12 ... those really high level characters are a chore to make.

You need to determine buffing rules and the arena, personally I'd just say all day buffs and buffs you normally keep on all day are on (lets say after 4 hours to determine how many resources were used, with everything half expired in duration). With no further buffing and everyone getting dumped on opposing sides of an arena of your choice. Put some distance and LoS breakers in between them so it's not just initiative to win.

I'd probably also ask everyone concerned to not make characters which hide inside the walls in between attacks, because that's just tiresome.

As for core only cheese some of the big consumables are still there : candle of invocation, dust of sneezing and choking and dust of disappearance ... ban those. Necklace of fireballs is still there as well, but that's not really on the same level of brokenness. Still might just want to outlaw all consumables (including scrolls) except for potions/wands/staffs and their psionic equivalents. Leadership should of course be banned (but make clear that NPCs controlled by class features like the thrallherd and command undead can still be brought along).

As for non consumables, the cube of force is underappreciated. Standard defence items should of course include absolute immunity items like necklace of adaptation and ring of freedom of movement.

One obnoxious core only trick is to put Symbol spells on your armour ... but that's rather limburger.

Remember, in an arena you should first go first, second never seen, third never targeted, fourth never hit, fifth never affected ... if you have to make a save or lose HP you're close to losing already (high optimization arena fights are rarely fun).

Now, as for a fourth character ... paladin archer can obviously throw out a whole lot of peak DPS, but without knowing the opponent alignment is evil that's a bit iffy so lets ignore that. Still an archer seems the obvious choice ... how about a clerical arcane archer? Dip in sorc or wiz for prerequisite for arcane archer, but use clerical casting for imbue arrow ... so something like wiz 1/cleric 8/AA 2/ and then cleric or MT levels. Of course the only good thing about the arcane archer is the AMF arrow, but that's good enough.

[grarrrg]

What were your ideas?

#1, Gundolon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12152413#post12152413)
If you are unfamiliar with the term, read the post.
It's.....fun....

#2, somewhere between this (http://alt.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13926231#post13926231) and this (http://alt.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13631163#post13631163)
(Beastmorph Vivisectionist Alchemist for Pounce and Sneak attack, Scout Rogue for guaranteed Sneak damage on a Charge, as many Natural Attacks as you can manage + Two-weapon fighting).

[Arbane]

For a fourth character, how about a maxed-out Superstion-using Barbarian? Assuming that psionics counts as (Su) abilities, they should have a very hard time doing anything to the barbarian, and with the right abilities, they MIGHT be able to hit them back.

[Blyte]

sorry, but at this point it's too taxing to separate core from splat.

why would you want to only use core anyhow? pathfinder doesn't have the insane amount of splat books 3.5 has.

seeing how the psionics unleashed is a 3rd party splat book anyhow, why don't you limit the builds to simply paizo products only?


but anyhow if you are making the characters between 15-20, simply pick the classes/archetypes that get huge initiative bonuses or simply always treat initiative rolls as 20? whichever team wins initiative will gain control and dominate if not whole sale slaughter on round 1. foresight wizard, kensai magus, inquisitor, and sohei monk, to name a few.

the wizard alone, WILL win initiative and can dominate the entire other team. just build the other 3 to burst DPS whoever the wizard missed.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why not look at the handbooks?


http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/beckett-s-lab

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h6-_4HvPvV-Tt7I67Gi_oPhgHmeDVA5SBl-WrJSgf5s/edit?hl=en&pli=1

http://pfs.shadowsofcommand.com/Cleric%20Optomization.htm

www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/rogue-eidolon-s-lab/rogue-eidolon-s-guide-to-clerics

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13218094#post13218094

www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/druid-handbook-part-1

www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/druid-handbook-part-2

www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/druid-handbook-part-3

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WdtrZCESRmVfljXY196wMrMLTnS8Uzk4DEk3oQdVZok/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184592

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oRoaIVTmDH7k6tVbTdXzuw-dYTPkdRo57NYB5Wv7vJo/edit?pli=1

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=69v2f3noiirf6ebge83ndqnv22&topic=480.0

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1SZl8EKYeB_NAmb_wdhIs4MN2D8pya_Y-v4Hs-ZB_M3s

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1avH5AFYaZ838OC_W7BY_Bnt1TH9KGCc2ygTOb0CiYu0/edit?hl=en&pli=1#

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_BX5vdncsihnOr1oldnEuxyykpZ86uKj71-WG8sw9aU/edit?hl=en&authkey=CL-ZxscM&pli=1

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/test

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13IZTV59ItNsK63RHQo2XGkjMKiU8LfRu5PCaE3R5lco/edit?pli=1

[grarrrg]

Quick note: NONE of the following is CORE (ok, straight class Ranger in their Favored terrain can get +8 on the Init roll, but that's about it)


simply pick the classes/archetypes that get huge initiative bonuses or simply always treat initiative rolls as 20? whichever team wins initiative will gain control and dominate if not whole sale slaughter on round 1. foresight wizard, kensai magus, inquisitor, and sohei monk, to name a few.

4 classes/archetypes get "auto-20":
Divine Strategist Cleric (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/paizo---cleric-archetypes/divine-strategist), 20+10 (roll as 20, and a +1/2 per level bonus). Added bonus, allies get +5 (1/4 the Cleric's level) to their Initiative.

Sohei Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/sohei) 20+10

Warden Ranger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/warden), treat roll as 20 with +10 if in best Favored Terrain. And all allies get +2 if in your Favored Terrain.

Divination Wizard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/divination) 20+10


Other notable Init-boosts:
Time (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/time) or Battle Mystery Oracles can roll 3 dice and take the best. Sounds great, but really isn't.
1 die is 10.5 avg.
2 dice are 13.825 avg.
3 dice are 15.4875 avg.
So you are only gaining about +5 from rolling 3 dice and taking the best.

Ifrit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-ifrit) Gunslingers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger) can get a whopping +16 to their roll (+10 from Favored Class, +2 from Gunslinger Deed, final 4 from an Alt-Racial trait).

Warden Ranger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/warden) 10/Horizon Walker 10 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/horizon-walker) can get +20 on an Initiative roll (+2 for each Favored Terrain, 3 Terrains from Warden, 7 from Horizon Walker).
So you can either get 20+10 with straight Warden or 1d20+20 with Warden/Walker.


And it was mentioned with the Gunslinger, but as a Race on it's own, an Ifrit has +2 DEX and an Alt-Race trait for +4 Init.

[Crustypeanut]

Well I won't say I don't love the extra books myself - I love the Advanced Players Handbook, Ultimate Magic/Combat/Equipment, etc etc. (I have them all, too, and really wanted to take a few things), and I will definitely be using them in my upcoming campaign, and have used them in the past.

But the goal was to beat the crap out of "Supposedly Stupidly Overpowered Psionics" with the most basic stuff I can get my hands on in pathfinder, to show that even without all these extra books, its not unbalanced compared to core.

Optimized minimalist, I suppose? Show the guys that even in just one book - the Core Rulebook - I can kick their "God-like" Psionic butts, as they've stated that Psionics are gods at level 14. Aren't we all, by then, though? 'Sept maybe a Fighter.
==============

But in the mean time, show me what you got, including Advanced Players Handbook, Ultimate Magic/Combat/Equipment, even the Advanced Race Guide. At the most, keep it limited to those, though, because at the most, I'll be using those + the Psionics Unleashed book in my upcoming campaign.

Although, if you can, show me how strong just a core rulebook character can be. Even if its just a one-trick-pony that does his trick reaaaaally well.

[PinkysBrain]

simply pick the classes/archetypes that get huge initiative bonuses or simply always treat initiative rolls as 20? whichever team wins initiative will gain control and dominate if not whole sale slaughter on round 1.
Completely depends on the arena ...

[Crustypeanut]

Yeah we'd definitely have kept the arena simple, but also not so simple as that a person who won initiative would win the fight.

[Doorhandle]

Can you use astral projection?

What about timestop? Timestop +more delayed fireballs than you can fit in 1 hand = DEAAAAAAATH!

Also, try spamming feeble-mind at them until they cry.
Most of the optimization tricks however do not come about until advanced player's guide, where all the mounted builds show up along with spirited charge and possibly ride by attack.

Then, simply make a mounted barbarian with all the animal-totem rage powers, spirited charge, ride-by-attack, and a lance. End result: 3xdamage, RAGELANCEPOUNCE.

[Crustypeanut]

...Timestop.. + Delayed Blast Fireballs... I like this idea. I likes it alot. Thats what, 1d4+1 potential fireballs? He he he.

Its like Golden Eye all over again with the remote mines!

[Doorhandle]

It will cost a LOT of spellslots though, especially if you use quickens delayed fireball for more fireballs.

Make sure to destroy the guy with fire/spell resistance first.

Also, toppling spell +magic missile = 5 missiles that autohit/trip. Magical linage for the win.
(http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage)
I'm sure we can do better, though. Isn't the real might in crowd control? Maybe force-cage, + stinking cloud, so they are A trapped and B have no line of sight, and are possibly nauseated. Then use divination spells to abuse your nuke/debuffs of choice while they're in there. black tentacles as well just for lulz.

Although this isn't core, but, breaker barbarian + spellbinder + strength surge + = many broken buffs and ongoing effects. Make sure to buff before he ranges though, otherwise you'll need to deal with Superstition.


Also, perhaps the Dungeon masher? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243830) Have a friend stand next to him with combat reflexes, look at all the A.O.Es roll in.

There were a few more awesome optimised pathfinder builds on giantip though. Look them up.