Effective War Blade

[Maryring]

So I am making myself a Warblade at level 5, but I am having difficulty deciding on maneuvers and stances for him. The only idea I currently have is to give him the Diamond Mind maneuvers that turn Ref and Will into Concentration checks, but then what? It makes him sound against casters who target saves, but it won't help him deal damage, or help him resist damage from other fighters.

So any ideas for good Warblade Maneuvers and Stances around level 5 and in the future would be most appreciated.

As it might be relevant, his backup is a Cleric and a Monk, so he will most likely fill the role of front and center, aggression drawing, enemy crunching vanguard.

[Fouredged Sword]

Steel wind is nice for attacking groups. Mountain Hammer is the ToB lock pick and a nice damage boost vs DR or anything else.

[eggs]

Do you have any ideas on the fighting style you want to pursue?

Suggestions are going to change a bit, depending on whether you're going for TWF, power attack DPS, lockdown, etc. But generally speaking, as long as you have a specific style in mind and trade your maneuvers up whenever you get the chance, Warblades are really hard to screw up (as in most options are at least respectable).

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9820253&postcount=4)'s a link to the Warblade handbook's maneuver breakdown, which should get you started if you haven't seen it.

At level 5 specifically, the big choice is usually "White Raven Tactics or Iron Heart Surge?" as those are two of the most powerful maneuvers available to the Warblade, ever.

[BowStreetRunner]

I have always liked a Warblade with the Blood in the Water stance and then lots of maneuvers that help get additional attacks, such as Steel Wind, Wolf Fang Strike, Mithral Tornado, Dancing Mongoose, etc. Pick up TWF and keep Bloodclaw Master in mind for a future Prestige class.

[INoKnowNames]

Hm.... Since it's just the three of you, too much White Raven investment doesn't seem appealing, though grab White Raven Tactics and never look back.

If you like to dual wield or enjoy your Jump skill, you could focus in Tiger Claw. Lots of goodies in there for such a thing.

Diamond Mind is the -STRONGEST- style, no questions asked. Having the concentration save against will is epic, though the reflex version isn't as needed. Still, you usually can never go wrong with Diamond Mind. Ruby and Diamond Nightmare Blade, and Time Stands Still and Stance of Alacrity.... pump that Concentration score!

Iron Heart is a very good one, and it's Warblade specific, so it's worth checking out on that merit alone. And, as mentioned, Iron Heart Surge is awesome, though you'll want to see how your Dm rules on it. Strike of Perfect Clarity is a pretty flavorfully awesome tech. The Wind Slash line (Steel Wind, Mithral Tornado, Adamantine Hurricane) is a good replacement for the Whirlwind Attack line, and are very awesome if you find yourself getting attacked a lot by multiple foes.

With the limit of having to be on the ground, and only moving 5 feet for most of the stances, Stone Dragon doesn't get too much love, but the Mountain Hammer line is good to cherry pick from, and it's Ultimate has no requirements once you get to that level. Take it and run.

Hm.... if you've got the ability to move and perform a full attack some how, usually through Pounce (though Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind have Quick Silver Motion and Sudden Leap / Pouncing Charge respectively to help with that), then focusing on boosts with only a few choice attacks here and there is a decentish option. If you're restricted to Move + Attack, then picking only the most vital boosts and taking lots of special attacks might be more up your alley.

It's -very- hard to screw a Warblade, though. They're builty effectively from the ground up, with very good fundamentals and free class features that make up for the feats that their older brother so championed. You can experiment and find what you like. Try to pick one style that interests you, based on the moves and such, and maybe 1 secondary style, and just fill up on them.

[Xefas]

You've gotten some good suggestions for the Warblade, and you should absolutely take that advice.

As tangential rambling that you are more than free to ignore, if you're planning on being the "tank" - taking most of the damage, and drawing most of the attention, you might also consider taking a level of Crusader (if not just playing a Crusader outright). One level will get you stuff like Heavy Armor Proficiency, and access to stances like Iron Guard's Glare (enemies take a penalty to hit all of your allies, so they're encouraged to attack you instead), as well as self-healing like Crusader's Strike. I dunno if they can crank out quite as much damage as a Warblade, but they do still get stuff like Mountain Hammer and, at higher levels, Divine Surge.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Don't take Stone Dragon stances, except maybe the one that doesn't hve the movement restriction, and then only if you're going to be underground where flight is less effective.

That's pretty much all the advice you need to build an effective warblade.

[Maryring]

Taking a look at that warblade handbook suggests that I've at least been thinking properly to begin with, in choosing Diamond as my primary, Iron as a secondary and White Raven as a tertiary.

Well, at the level near the start, there will be six maneuvers and two stances in total available to me.

What I am currently considering then would be.

1st level:
Moment of Perfect Mind (Diam)
Steel Wind (Iron)
Sudden Leap (Tiger)

2nd level:
Emerald Razor (Diam)
Wall of Blades (Iron)

3rd level:
Iron Heart Surge/White Raven Tactics. (One or the other. With the next one being gained at level 6.)

Stances:
Leading the Charge
Hunter's Sense

Though is there any way to get stances from outside your school? I wouldn't mind swapping Leading the Charge with Martial Spirit.

I doubt I'll be a primary tank as, considering the other two are melee fighters as well (The Cleric knows that he can end encounters with Hold Person. He also knows it is anticlimactic so he'll do self-buff and melee mostly I think), we're all going to be able to tank decently as a group.

I also doubt that I'll be going for TWF. Sword and Broad is where it's at, with the ability to ditch the shield for power-attacking bisecting against low AC, low attack foes. I might be able to convince the Monk to go Swordsage though.

[HunterOfJello]

First thing I noticed is that you have both Sudden Leap and Hunter's Sense which each require 1 Tiger Claw maneuver known, but have no Tiger Claw maneuvers currently known that do not have prerequisites. The Tiger Claw maneuver that's usually taken to meet those prereqs is Wolf Fang Strike.

When using ToB (according to customer service), you can use a maneuver that you're choosing to lose to work as a prereq for a maneuver that you're gaining. That's the usual method for ending up with maneuvers that require others, without still having to keep those low level other maneuvers on your known list. However, that doesn't seem to be completely applicable here.

~

Also, you've passed up Mountain Hammer. MH is a classic low level maneuver that will deal a great deal of potential damage and help you a lot in the future. Let's say that you are level 5, you do 1d8+3 damage per swing of your longsword, and are attacking an enemy with DR 10/silver. You would have to roll an 8 on your d8 to do any damage at all to the creature with a normal slash. If you use Emerald Razor and a full +5 damage Power Attack, then you would be doing 1d8+8 damage minus the enemy's DR 10. That would be an average of 2.5 damage to the enemy (4.5+8-10). However, if you used Mountain Hammer without any power attack, then you would do 1d8+3 +2d6 damage to him while ignoring his damage reduction. That would be an average of 14.5 damage (4.5+3+3.5*2). Here's a recap.

If Level 5 Warblade Longsword does 1d8+3 normal damage and enemy has DR 10, then:

Normal attack = 0 damage
Full Power Attack Emerald Razor against DR 10 = 2.5 damage
Mountain Hammer against DR 10 = 14.5 damage

Both the +2d6 damage and especially ignoring damage reduction and hardness, make Mountain Hammer a maneuver that would be horrible to pass up.

~~~~~~

As for gaining extra maneuvers and stances, there are feats to do that and items you can obtain to do that. The items are featured in the back of the book, but I don't know if they can give you stances. Dipping into Swordsage is popular for Warblades in order to gain extra flexibility and options. It's also helpful for gaining maneuver prereqs.

[Sith_Happens]

What I am currently considering then would be.

1st level:
Moment of Perfect Mind (Diam)
Steel Wind (Iron)
Sudden Leap (Tiger)

2nd level:
Emerald Razor (Diam)
Wall of Blades (White)

3rd level:
Iron Heart Surge/White Raven Tactics. (One or the other. With the next one being gained at level 6.)

Stances:
Leading the Charge
Hunter's Sense

That is definitely a solid selection that you can't really go wrong with.


Though is there any way to get stances from outside your school? I wouldn't mind swapping Leading the Charge with Martial Spirit.

You can either take Martial Study and then Martial Stance, or multiclass into Crusader.


I also doubt that I'll be going for TWF. Sword and Broad is where it's at, with the ability to ditch the shield for power-attacking bisecting against low AC, low attack foes.

Once you can afford one, an animated shield lets you have you cake and eat it too.


I might be able to convince the Monk to go Swordsage though.

This (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070911) article about incorporating martial adepts into the Forgotten Realms lets members of two specific monasteries multiclass freely between monk and swordsage. You should ask you DM about turning that into a general rule.

[Maryring]

First thing I noticed is that you have both Sudden Leap and Hunter's Sense which each require 1 Tiger Claw maneuver known, but have no Tiger Claw maneuvers currently known that do not have prerequisites. The Tiger Claw maneuver that's usually taken to meet those prereqs is Wolf Fang Strike.

When using ToB (according to customer service), you can use a maneuver that you're choosing to lose to work as a prereq for a maneuver that you're gaining. That's the usual method for ending up with maneuvers that require others, without still having to keep those low level other maneuvers on your known list. However, that doesn't seem to be completely applicable here.

~

Also, you've passed up Mountain Hammer. MH is a classic low level maneuver that will deal a great deal of potential damage and help you a lot in the future. Let's say that you are level 5, you do 1d8+3 damage per swing of your longsword, and are attacking an enemy with DR 10/silver. You would have to roll an 8 on your d8 to do any damage at all to the creature with a normal slash. If you use Emerald Razor and a full +5 damage Power Attack, then you would be doing 1d8+8 damage minus the enemy's DR 10. That would be an average of 2.5 damage to the enemy (4.5+8-10). However, if you used Mountain Hammer without any power attack, then you would do 1d8+3 +2d6 damage to him while ignoring his damage reduction. That would be an average of 14.5 damage (4.5+3+3.5*2). Here's a recap.

If Level 5 Warblade Longsword does 1d8+3 normal damage and enemy has DR 10, then:

Normal attack = 0 damage
Full Power Attack Emerald Razor against DR 10 = 2.5 damage
Mountain Hammer against DR 10 = 14.5 damage

Both the +2d6 damage and especially ignoring damage reduction and hardness, make Mountain Hammer a maneuver that would be horrible to pass up.

~~~~~~

As for gaining extra maneuvers and stances, there are feats to do that and items you can obtain to do that. The items are featured in the back of the book, but I don't know if they can give you stances. Dipping into Swordsage is popular for Warblades in order to gain extra flexibility and options. It's also helpful for gaining maneuver prereqs.
You are right. I did not notice that Hunter's Sense had a prerequisite. So I'll have to replace it with Blood in the Water, or ditch both. I don't have enough maneuvers to focus heavily into Tiger Claw. Especially since I will not be TWF.

When it comes to passing by Mountain Hammer, the reason I did so is because a +1 Holy Cold Iron sword is going to bypass almost all DR that will be thrown against me. Hardness is rarely an issue, as having a single backup adamantine hammer should not be an impossible feat, and even then probably not something I'd want to prioritize. DR/- is rare and usually very low. And oil of silvered weapon (level 1 spell for Paladins from BoED if I recall correctly, thus available to be brewed as a potion by Archivists) is only 50 gp a piece. So I can carry an oil for that in case I stumble upon any enemies where silvered will fare better than cold iron. I will also be able to maintain the pressure, rather than Mountain Hammer Strike, renew, Mountain Hammer Strike.

Considering that, I just couldn't pass up on Wall of Blades, being that it is an excellent counter against spellcasters using rays, and Emerald Razor, which will essentially cut the AC of most armoured foes down to 10. And at level 5, having a +10 to attack is easy to achieve. The additional damage is nice, but overkill against spellcaster, and unreliable against armoured foes.

[Firechanter]

Warblades are very versatile and can be played in a number of ways, but I find that a handful of styles stand out:

- THF Supercharger. Work towards stuff that helps your Charges, adds extra attacks and damage. It's pretty easy to do even without multiclassing:
Get Pouncing Charge and Dancing/Raging Mongoose, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack and a Valorous Weapon. Keep Wall of Blades to secure yourself against Shock Trooper AC lashback.
Benefit: You'll be able to one-shot pretty much anything even remotely appropriate for your level.
Drawback: It's a kind of Rocket Tag. Your DM may not like that. Best save up your murder combo for a select few enemies.

- THF Thrower. Work 4 levels of Bloodstorm Blade into your Warblade Build. Done.
Benefit: you can cause Two-Handed Power Attack Damage at range.
Drawback: doing so eats up your Swift Actions so you can't use Boosts at the same time. Most Strikes also are incompatible with this.

- TWF: combine Blood In The Water with Dual Kukris and take Improved Crit. Make the Kukris Adaptive and take Lighting Mace if your DM allows it. Take maneuvers that give you extra movement and attacks. Work in 3 levels of Bloodclaw Master.
Benefit: you gain absurd amounts of attacks and bonuses against crittable foes.
Drawback: need expensive Crystals to be effective against uncrittable foes.
More importantly, your fellow players may be less enthusiastic about the idea of waiting for you to make up to 40 rolls for attack and damage per round, every round.

P.S.: note that Blood In The Water also has 1 maneuver Prereq. :p

[Maryring]

That is definitely a solid selection that you can't really go wrong with.



You can either take Martial Study and then Martial Stance, or multiclass into Crusader.



Once you can afford one, an animated shield lets you have you cake and eat it too.



This (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070911) article about incorporating martial adepts into the Forgotten Realms lets members of two specific monasteries multiclass freely between monk and swordsage. You should ask you DM about turning that into a general rule.
Ah, thanks. I'll ignore Martial Spirit then. If I get around to taking Martial Stance, I'll be able to pick up a level 3 stance, so that's probably going to be Thicket of Blades.


Warblades are very versatile and can be played in a number of ways, but I find that a handful of styles stand out:

- THF Supercharger. Work towards stuff that helps your Charges, adds extra attacks and damage. It's pretty easy to do even without multiclassing:
Get Pouncing Charge and Dancing/Raging Mongoose, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack and a Valorous Weapon. Keep Wall of Blades to secure yourself against Shock Trooper AC lashback.
Benefit: You'll be able to one-shot pretty much anything even remotely appropriate for your level.
Drawback: It's a kind of Rocket Tag. Your DM may not like that. Best save up your murder combo for a select few enemies.

- THF Thrower. Work 4 levels of Bloodstorm Blade into your Warblade Build. Done.
Benefit: you can cause Two-Handed Power Attack Damage at range.
Drawback: doing so eats up your Swift Actions so you can't use Boosts at the same time. Most Strikes also are incompatible with this.

- TWF: combine Blood In The Water with Dual Kukris and take Improved Crit. Make the Kukris Adaptive and take Lighting Mace if your DM allows it. Take maneuvers that give you extra movement and attacks. Work in 3 levels of Bloodclaw Master.
Benefit: you gain absurd amounts of attacks and bonuses against crittable foes.
Drawback: need expensive Crystals to be effective against uncrittable foes.
More importantly, your fellow players may be less enthusiastic about the idea of waiting for you to make up to 40 rolls for attack and damage per round, every round.

P.S.: note that Blood In The Water also has 1 maneuver Prereq. :p
Right on! Ditching Tiger Claw completely it is then. :smalltongue:

[Firechanter]

Ah, thanks. I'll ignore Martial Spirit then. If I get around to taking Martial Stance, I'll be able to pick up a level 3 stance, so that's probably going to be Thicket of Blades.

Ah, so you're going for a Lockdown build? Keep in mind that Martial Stance has another maneuver of the same discipline as prereq, which you can get only by taking a level of Crusader or investing another feat (2 total).


Right on! Ditching Tiger Claw completely it is then. :smalltongue:

Your choice; BitW is really only interesting for the TWF-critfisher I outlined above, but apart from that TC does have a few very nice maneuvers.

However, it's just as viable to ditch TC and focus on Diamond Mind and Iron Heart. In fact that was probably the first Warblade build I ever made.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unfortunately, martial stance requires that you have one maneuver from the discipline of the stance you wish to take with it. If you want any devoted spirit stances you'll have to take martial study or a crusader dip first.

Seriously consider buying one of the Crown of the White Raven items if you feel you really need a maneuver you don't have room for on your maneuvers known. The novice CotWR items are almost always worth the gp. Martial scripts can be good for a quick pick-me-up maneuver, or getting into a stance that you'll want to be in the entire day. They're not perfect though.

[Gray Mage]

You are right. I did not notice that Hunter's Sense had a prerequisite. So I'll have to replace it with Blood in the Water, or ditch both. I don't have enough maneuvers to focus heavily into Tiger Claw. Especially since I will not be TWF.

I'm pretty sure you could pick Wolf Fang Strike at the first level then trade it for something else at level 4 without any problems (the prerequisite is only needed to learn the maneuver/stance, not ready it, if I remember correctly).

By the way, Wall of Blades is a Iron Heart maneuver, not White Raven.

[Maryring]

Tiger claw does have some nice things yes. However as I get only 13 maneuvers naturally, and I've already chosen the three I'll focus on, But you are also correct in that I can "swap up" various maneuvers. So it is possible for me to have started out with Wolf Fang Strike, and thus have Hunter's Sense stance and Sudden Leap available, and then swap out WFS with Emerald Razor on level 4.

I'm aware that I'll need two feats for a Dev stance, hence why I am not completely sold on it. While I do get a few bonus feats, I still only have three feats available at level 5. Two when we factor in that Power Attack is a "duh" feat. But I'll figure something out.

Now to work on convincing the Monk to go Swordsage for Setting Sun throws.