Polymorph any object [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Pandyman

2012-10-21, 01:08 AM

I've been looking heavily into polymorph any object, and in my campaign i recently got to 4th level as a Venerable Dragonwrought Loredrake Kobold Sorcerer. Now I have enough money to get a wand with a few charges of PAO left or a scroll, as from my understanding the price is 750gxCLxSLX(% of charges left) and scroll price is easily found in SRD.

Now, are there any creatures that would be a good thing to transform into at this low of a level? I mainly want to boost my Charisma to increase the save DCs for my spells. I know that there are tons of other ways to increase save DCs, but this would be a very easy boost, if i could just find a good monster; and, lets face it, most PAO guides only look at the option of PAO for casters around 8HD and up.

We rolled stats, and currently I have better stats than all the dragons of my HD, but it would be in my best interest to keep the dragon type for Loredrake. But, the auto permancy of getting transformed into a dragon might not really help me, unless we assumed that i kept my base rolls for stats and use savage species to determine the stats as if I were applying a template to make myself that type of dragon. Basically rather than demoting my physical stats to that of a Copper Dragons, I would take +2 to Con, Int, Wis, and Cha to the rolls that I had originally put into Con, Int, Wis, and Cha. Of Course, I'd have to get my DM to approve it, so that might be a no.

I don't want to do super cheese, such as the double PAO trick later on. I'm just trying to think outside the box to increase my spell saves. Could i just use PAO to transform my character into a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold(basically the same race I already am) with a template, or is there a rule against using PAO in this fashion?

EDIT: I realized that the creature must be non-unique. >.> So disregard that last part.

TuggyNE

2012-10-21, 02:26 AM

Friends don't let friends PaO themselves.

(This message paid for the Gamers Against Polymorph Subschool Abuse.)

HunterOfJello

2012-10-21, 03:00 AM

It's worth noting that the rules aren't clear (as far as i am aware) about what happens to a person's abilities and ability score changes from one type of creature to another is.

In all likelihood, changing from a Loredrake Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold to another type of creature would throw your Loredrake benefit and aging benefits away, unless you turned into another dragon.

If you turn into another dragon, then you would gain a bunch of racial hit die. That's both a bad idea and a bad thing to do in the game period. I'm pretty sure there are rules that Dragons with hit die progressions have to increase their hit die by age and not by class. So, that wouldn't be a great idea.

If you turn into something younger than yourself or even change your natural aging process to the degree that you would live much longer than normal for the type of dragonwrought kobold that you are, then you should have some Marut Inevitables knocking on your door pretty soon.

There's also the question of whether you would maintain the degree of aging that you have as a dragonwrought kobold if you took another form. For instance, if you turned into a human, would you become a venerable human with +3 to all mental stats and -6 to all physical stats? Turning into a young human would alleviate that, but should you then lose the +3 to all mental stats that you had obtained? Also, you wouldn't be a dragon anymore so you wouldn't be a Loredrake and should lose 2 sorcerer casting levels (which you shouldn't really have anyway).

~

Overall, PAO is a bad idea for optimized races to use. If you're a Half-Elf, go for it. If you're a Loredrake Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold, then only use PAO for temporary hijinks.

Kadarai

2012-10-21, 03:05 AM

You use alter self to polymorph yourself, you use Polymorph to polymorph yourself, you don;t use Polymorph Any Object to polymorph yourself. You use it to polymorph anything else.
The spell is literally limitless turninganything to anything else. Last time we used it in my group it was to turn a building into a sheep, then ofer the sheep to a beholder as a peace offering, then dispel the polymorph in the beholder's stomach to revert it back to a building.
You can turn the enemy's gear to nails, you can use their potions into lava, you can turn a small hill into a new mansion, but plz don't jsut use it to polymorph yourself.

Cranthis

2012-10-21, 03:09 AM

I didn't find anything that says you can't polymorph something into a wand of PAO.

Pandyman

2012-10-21, 03:14 AM

Actually by raw, none of that matters since it is explicitly defined in the spell effect. "Unlike polymorph, polymorph any object does grant the creature the Intelligence score of its new form. If the original form didn’t have a Wisdom or Charisma score, it gains those scores as appropriate for the new form."

Also, by raw all polymorphs have the following, "The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form". They don't make you take the racial hit die, as that isn't in the spell. The only thing that happens is your stats change to match the monster's stats and you gain the monster's abilities that fit within the description of the spell.

For this to be effective I would simply need to find a creature of the types allowed by PAO that has better stats than my character but the same HD. I would, however, have to pick a draconic form to retain my loredrake bonus.

Edit: also by Raw, "A nonmagical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell. Magic items aren’t affected by this spell."

EDIT 2: I made the answer to my question moot. "If the original form didn’t have a Wisdom or Charisma score, it gains those scores as appropriate for the new form." Since I have a charisma, I gain no benefits from from using polymorph anything to become a creature with a higher charisma.

Cranthis

2012-10-21, 03:24 AM

also by Raw, "A nonmagical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell. Magic items aren’t affected by this spell."

I'll admit that my search wasn't very extensive haha. I was abit busy when I did it.

Pandyman

2012-10-21, 04:00 AM

i guess what i really need then is an indispensable item for an sorcatatrix worth 4k gold then. lol

Xervous

2012-10-21, 09:06 AM

Last time I checked, wands could only hold up to 4th level spells

and PaO is level 8... (unless it appears on a list somewhere as a level 4 spell)

Kelb_Panthera

2012-10-21, 09:18 AM

Last time I checked, wands could only hold up to 4th level spells

and PaO is level 8... (unless it appears on a list somewhere as a level 4 spell)

A staff with PAO, and nothing else, would be functionally equivalent to an oversized wand.

@the op; you're playing a DW loredrake and you're worried about PAO being cheesy? Really?

Invader

2012-10-21, 11:39 AM

@the op; you're playing a DW loredrake and you're worried about PAO being cheesy? Really?

This ^

Just PaO into punpun and be done with it. :smallamused:

Pandyman

2012-10-21, 03:40 PM

A staff with PAO, and nothing else, would be functionally equivalent to an oversized wand.

@the op; you're playing a DW loredrake and you're worried about PAO being cheesy? Really?

I'm playing with an optimized wizard, and he's only a PAO away from blowing me out of the water. So I'm planning on getting there before he does.

EDIT: Not to mention his versatility is well beyond mine as a sorcerer.

Kelb_Panthera

2012-10-21, 04:22 PM

I'm playing with an optimized wizard, and he's only a PAO away from blowing me out of the water. So I'm planning on getting there before he does.

EDIT: Not to mention his versatility is well beyond mine as a sorcerer.

This doesn't really make any sense to me. How is PAO going to blow you out of the water, and how is the wizard going to get at it by only 4th or 5th-ish level?

Pandyman

2012-10-21, 04:34 PM

This doesn't really make any sense to me. How is PAO going to blow you out of the water, and how is the wizard going to get at it by only 4th or 5th-ish level?

A wizard is already the king of versatility. PAO just adds a ton of physical versatility such as fly speed, climb speeds, dig speeds, increased strength, dexterity, constitution, etc. A fly speed and the hover feat is like a permanent fly spell, which is one of the favorite spells for most spellcasters. A scroll with an 8th level spell from the wizard casting class costs 3,000 gold according to the SRD, and we both have enough gold to splurge on a 3k scroll. Although high HD creatures are out of the question, the wizard could easily transform into a Pixie.

A permanent fly is pretty amazing at this level, and it wouldn't be possible to dispel until we level quite a few more times.

Kelb_Panthera

2012-10-21, 04:43 PM

Pandyman

2012-10-21, 04:52 PM

Body swapping shennigans, gotcha.

If you're on this level of cheese, there's not much you can do. You could spread your own versatility out a bit by multiclassing wizard and going into ultimate magus.

Ultimately though, your group's brushing right up against TO stuff. If that wizard wants to, he will be able to completely out-shine you all, after a while. In two or three levels that permanent fly speed will be a triviality.

Though aren't you a few levels ahead in casting ability? or was that a different DW exploit?

I am ahead in caster level and spells. If i could somehow get a hold of a wish spell i could change my race to Dragon. Then i'd get access to cleric spells as arcane spells, fly speed, NA boost, breath weapon, etc. This would allow me to retrain my DW and keep Loredrake and rolled stats, but I would have to wait a little longer than for a poly any object.

Kelb_Panthera

2012-10-21, 05:03 PM

I am ahead in caster level and spells. If i could somehow get a hold of a wish spell i could change my race to Dragon. Then i'd get access to cleric spells as arcane spells, fly speed, NA boost, breath weapon, etc. This would allow me to retrain my DW and keep Loredrake and rolled stats, but I would have to wait a little longer than for a poly any object.

????

You mean you want to wish yourself into a true-dragon body, since you're already a true dragon? PAO can do that.

Pandyman

2012-10-21, 05:06 PM

????

You mean you want to wish yourself into a true-dragon body, since you're already a true dragon? PAO can do that.

hence why i said wish spell... It would be much more useful than a PAO, though PAO will make the polymorph effect permanent as long as I choose to transform into a dragon, I won't get nearly the coolness that a wish spell would get me.

Kelb_Panthera

2012-10-21, 05:13 PM

hence why i said wish spell... It would be much more useful than a PAO, though PAO will make the polymorph effect permanent as long as I choose to transform into a dragon, I won't get nearly the coolness that a wish spell would get me.

Meh, wish is overrated and more than a little dangerous.

It's also prohibitively expensive. In another discussion recently it was pointed out that a single use device for wish would cost over 32,000gp. Even just a scroll is almost 29,000gp.

I'd strongly advise you just forget about wish and focus your efforts toward something more immediate. PAO can probably get you where you want to go, though I'm finding where that is less and less clear.

Have you considered putting that cash toward getting yourself a minion via planar binding?

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-10-21, 05:35 PM

Yea, the problem is that the HD is limited by either CL of the Wand (15) or your own HD. So unless you've got some way of increasing your HD, you're stuck at low-HD critters.

At higher levels, you can Alter Shape into a Dragon, being Dragonwrought Kobold, since you already have the Dragon type, but there's not much to be done with a wand of PaO at this level unless you want to use Polymorph offensively to simulate something like Baleful Polymorph.

Pandyman

2012-10-21, 06:12 PM

Meh, wish is overrated and more than a little dangerous.

It's also prohibitively expensive. In another discussion recently it was pointed out that a single use device for wish would cost over 32,000gp. Even just a scroll is almost 29,000gp.

I'd strongly advise you just forget about wish and focus your efforts toward something more immediate. PAO can probably get you where you want to go, though I'm finding where that is less and less clear.

Have you considered putting that cash toward getting yourself a minion via planar binding?

No i haven't, though now that you've mentioned it I'm looking into it.

Well, there are a few low HD creatures that are good to use PAO for, like Pixies could be a good pick for some people although not a good choice for me. I'm really just trying to find a way to keep loredrake and retrain my Dragonwrought feat into something that could be more useful for my Incantatrix use.

Arcanist

2012-10-21, 07:11 PM

I'm playing with an optimized wizard, and he's only a PAO away from blowing me out of the water. So I'm planning on getting there before he does.

EDIT: Not to mention his versatility is well beyond mine as a sorcerer.

Theres your problem. You're not Spellhoarding :smallconfused: If you add Spellhoarding into the mix then the Wizard stops being the "king of versaility" and immediately because the queen... YOUR queen :smallamused:

????

You mean you want to wish yourself into a true-dragon body, since you're already a true dragon? PAO can do that.

*Foam at mouth* ... *whips foam away* ... Alrighty... ANYWAY~ I'd just like to throw this out there that a Dragonwrought Kobold could just Polymorph themselves into a Dragon of their choice... since they already have the well coveted Dragon type :smallsigh:

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-10-21, 07:24 PM

*Foam at mouth* ... *whips foam away* ... Alrighty... ANYWAY~ I'd just like to throw this out there that a Dragonwrought Kobold could just Polymorph themselves into a Dragon of their choice... since they already have the well coveted Dragon type :smallsigh:

HD Disparity prevents this until higher levels.

Arcanist

2012-10-21, 07:29 PM

HD Disparity prevents this until higher levels.

I meant Polymorph any Object.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-10-21, 07:46 PM

I meant Polymorph any Object.

Still does not bypass HD disparity. Limited by target's HD or the CL of caster, which with a wand, is 15. Since he's only 4th level, that's the more restrictive limitation.

Boci

2012-10-21, 07:51 PM

Arcanist

2012-10-21, 08:18 PM

Still does not bypass HD disparity. Limited by target's HD or the CL of caster, which with a wand, is 15. Since he's only 4th level, that's the more restrictive limitation.

There is a counter argument. It goes something along the lines of "PaO can turn you into a rock. rocks don't have HD, therefor the only logical conclusion is that PaO ignores the HD restrictions"

Yeah, not convinced personally. If a someone demanded an argument I'd probably go with specific trumps general, with the rock form being specifically allowed by the rules.

A sheep does not have a listed Hit die, a building does not have a listed hit die, a lot of the things that people like making with Polymorph any object do not have hit die (my personal favorite being Anti-matter for 20 minutes). Because these things are neither specified by Polymorph any object as being acceptable options for the spell, they cannot be used.

Boci

2012-10-21, 08:23 PM

Endarire

2012-10-21, 08:37 PM

Want to PAO into something with a high CHA?

PAO first into an object, then PAO into your desired creature. Ta da!

Alleran

2012-10-21, 09:19 PM

Meh, wish is overrated and more than a little dangerous.
In this case, it could be effective. There is a Savage Species transformation ritual involving wish that can permanently transform you into another creature (with some Spellcraft checks, IIRC, for getting each new Su/Sp ability the form grants). So it's within the power of a wish spell to accomplish it.

Pandyman

2012-10-21, 09:30 PM

A sheep does not have a listed Hit die, a building does not have a listed hit die, a lot of the things that people like making with Polymorph any object do not have hit die (my personal favorite being Anti-matter for 20 minutes). Because these things are neither specified by Polymorph any object as being acceptable options for the spell, they cannot be used.

In the Player's handbook, it actually specifically notes that all creatures and nonmagical items can be targeted by PAO. "Target: One creature, or one nonmagical object of up to 100 cu. ft./level"

If I could somehow change into a dragon using the savage species ritual, then I could become a true dragon and retrain the Dragonwrought feat.

The main reason I'm not spell hoarding is because the only limitation put on the group is no pun-pun/infinite loops and no templates.

Edit: Also, the spell is very expansive, they can't give you an example of all its uses.

Arcanist

2012-10-21, 09:45 PM

In the Player's handbook, it actually specifically notes that all creatures and nonmagical items can be targeted by PAO. "Target: One creature, or one nonmagical object of up to 100 cu. ft./level"

Not the point at all. His argument is that Polymorph any object cannot polymorph any object, because every object does not have a Hit Dice which Polymorph is bound to.

Boci

2012-10-21, 09:51 PM

Not the point at all. His argument is that Polymorph any object cannot polymorph any object, because every object does not have a Hit Dice which Polymorph is bound to.

My point is more "Don't abuse PaO by using it as a polymorph with no upper HD cap". If someone demands that I use RAW to justify this, I will use a ruling that means PaO does not polymorph most objects, but in most groups I am sure the first point can be followed without a need for some draconian RAW.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-10-21, 10:08 PM

My point is more "Don't abuse PaO by using it as a polymorph with no upper HD cap". If someone demands that I use RAW to justify this, I will use a ruling that means PaO does not polymorph most objects, but in most groups I am sure the first point can be followed without a need for some draconian RAW.

Even easier...

"This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another."

Polymorph has the HD cap. It is not negated in any exampe in PaO. Thus, PaO is still held by the HD cap.

Arcanist

2012-10-21, 10:16 PM

Even easier...

"This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another."

Polymorph has the HD cap. It is not negated in any exampe in PaO. Thus, PaO is still held by the HD cap.

Exactly. Meaning Polymorph any object ironically enough does not Polymorph any object.

This can actually be expanded upon further to mean that you can only use Polymorph any object on Objects (to turn them into creatures) or Creatures (to turn this into other creatures).

Pandyman

2012-10-21, 10:16 PM

Even easier...

"This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another."

Polymorph has the HD cap. It is not negated in any example in PaO. Thus, PaO is still held by the HD cap.

I agree that PAO is still held by the HD cap of Polymorph, but if an object doesn't have a specific HD then you would look at the specifics of the PAO spell to transform a building into a sheep. It must fit within the following for PAO to work, "one nonmagical object of up to 100 cu. ft./level" and "This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine."

Since a sheep's body is less expensive than the original building, all the DM needs to decide on is whether the building is less than 100 cu. ft./level.

EDIT: Also, PAO gives specific examples to support PAO can turn living things into objects. "For example, it is possible to polymorph a creature into rock"

Boci

2012-10-21, 10:23 PM

Exactly. Meaning Polymorph any object ironically enough does not Polymorph any object.

This can actually be expanded upon further to mean that you can only use Polymorph any object on Objects (to turn them into creatures) or Creatures (to turn this into other creatures).

Pretty much. Basically, the awkward wording of the spell limits its power, since it will often require the DM to stray away from RAW. Given the broad scope of the spell, some may not consider this to be that bad of a thing. And even this way it is still pretty abusable.

Arcanist

2012-10-21, 10:26 PM

PAO gives specific examples to support PAO can turn living things into objects. "For example, it is possible to polymorph a creature into rock"

The example is incorrect then. I'm not sure where you're quoting, but I'm not seeing that text anywhere in the spells description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm).

Welcome to the wonderful world of RAW! :smallbiggrin:

Pandyman

2012-10-21, 10:27 PM

Either way, I'm still looking for things to help my sorcatatrix game. Most likely the best benefit would be to spend 2k on a magical item and pick up item familiar to help make spellcraft checks and looking into increasing the save DCs for my spells.

Edit:
The example is incorrect then. I'm not sure where you're quoting, but I'm not seeing that text anywhere in the spells description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm).

In the wonderful world of RAW! :smallbiggrin:

I'm copy pasting from the player's handbook.

EDIT 2: if you want proof from the online SRD. Look at the table, "Human to marionette".

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-10-21, 10:29 PM

I agree that PAO is still held by the HD cap of Polymorph, but if an object doesn't have a specific HD then you would look at the specifics of the PAO spell to transform a building into a sheep. It must fit within the following for PAO to work, "one nonmagical object of up to 100 cu. ft./level" and "This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine."

Since a sheep's body is less expensive than the original building, all the DM needs to decide on is whether the building is less than 100 cu. ft./level.

EDIT: Also, PAO gives specific examples to support PAO can turn living things into objects. "For example, it is possible to polymorph a creature into rock"
A sheep is a creature, not an object.

Personally, I'd just quickly stat up 'sheep' as a 1 HD animal and call it a day.

Of course, you can use PaO to simulate Baleful Polymorph to turn him into a sheep. That would be a legitimate use.

Pandyman

2012-10-21, 10:31 PM

A sheep is a creature, not an object.

Personally, I'd just quickly stat up 'sheep' as a 1 HD animal and call it a day.

Of course, you can use PaO to simulate Baleful Polymorph to turn him into a sheep. That would be a legitimate use.

^ the main reason i still observe the material rule is because it would be obsurd to let a player turn a rock into a unicorn, and sell the horn/animal.

Arcanist

2012-10-21, 10:35 PM

Either way, I'm still looking for things to help my sorcatatrix game. Most likely the best benefit would be to spend 2k on a magical item and pick up item familiar to help make spellcraft checks and looking into increasing the save DCs for my spells.

You can still do the whole PaO into a True Dragon thing (I personally stand by the fact that a DWK isn't this (a True Dragon), but that is for another thread), however PaO's raw supports that a creature with the Dragon Type, of the Dragon family, of Small Size, of lower intelligence, can permanently maintain the form of a Dragon. Go for a Wyrmling Blue Dragon; Free Immunity to Elec, Create/Destroy Water at will. Sounds pretty magical to me :smalltongue:

Honestly, the only thing that this discussion has proven is that Polymorph any Object needs DM regulation to truly function in a game... Wonderful :smallsigh:

Pandyman

2012-10-21, 10:41 PM

Honestly, the only thing that this discussion has proven is that Polymorph any Object needs DM regulation to truly function in a game... Wonderful :smallsigh:

I hear that. lol

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-10-21, 10:42 PM

^ the main reason i still observe the material rule is because it would be obsurd to let a player turn a rock into a unicorn, and sell the horn/animal.

Oh, sure, you could try. After all, people have been using the Mount spell to sell bogus horses forever.

The problem is that when said critter vanishes or reverts back to type due to the spell expiring... you suddenly have very irate people hunting you down.

Arcanist

2012-10-21, 10:43 PM

Oh, sure, you could try. After all, people have been using the Mount spell to sell bogus horses forever.

The problem is that when said critter vanishes or reverts back to type due to the spell expiring... you suddenly have very irate people hunting you down.

Which is why Gygax created Alter Self :smallbiggrin:

dextercorvia

2012-10-22, 12:20 AM

Arcanist

2012-10-22, 12:22 AM

I'm confused at all this talk about the HD cap. The spell explicitly discusses Pebble --> Human and Lizard-->Manticore. It seems clear that the HD of the final shape is not limited to the HD of the beginning form.

This isn't a discussion of what makes sense, it's a discussion of what RAW dictates, because we're all HD-less sheep :smalltongue:

dextercorvia

2012-10-22, 12:32 AM

This isn't a discussion of what makes sense, it's a discussion of what RAW dictates, because we're all HD-less sheep :smalltongue:

And, the basis is that it refers back to polymorph, which has the cap. But the description of PAO contains elements which are different from polymorph, but aren't spelled out in the first sentence, in much the same way as Polymorph refers to Alter Self except that you can change creature type. But then later in the Polymorph description it raises the HD cap from that imposed by Alter Self. Similarly, later in PAO, examples are provided illustrating that any change is possible.

Arcanist

2012-10-22, 12:36 AM

And, the basis is that it refers back to polymorph, which has the cap. But the description of PAO contains elements which are different from polymorph, but aren't spelled out in the first sentence, in much the same way as Polymorph refers to Alter Self except that you can change creature type. But then later in the Polymorph description it raises the HD cap from that imposed by Alter Self. Similarly, later in PAO, examples are provided illustrating that any change is possible.

Yes, however it provides an example like Polymorph, but never actually rectifies it leading the reader to assume that the end creature must have a listed HD (as Polymorph). The starting point, however is not bound by that rule.