Riddles from mindflayers

[Fire Lord Pi]

Hi, I'm a long time lurker and decided to begin my posting with a question.

The party:


Ardareln- 1st lvl Aasimar Monk (with the outsider wings feat) LG
Kirtap- 3rd lvl Human Fighter (dire flail wielding) N
James- 1st lvl Warforged Artificer (Mithril body) N
Allucious- 2nd lvl Human Scout (currently imprisoned) NG
Leoendithas- 1st level Elf Ranger (player never comes- npc) CG
Enealis- 1st lvl Elf Rogue/ 1st level Elf Fighter (party leader) CG (debatedly)




This is the current state of the campaign:


The party is part of a rebellion fighting against a powerful empire that exists within a large ring of mountains that no one has ever traveled beyond. Is is ruled by a blue dragon. The government is in a constant state of war with various mountain forces. Many valuable resources exists in the mountains, however the government has convinced its people that it is a benevolent society and so the government will make things seem as though the mountain dwelling creatures struck first so they have an excuse to go to war. The party helped with a terrorist act on the capital (in the center of the ring) and were then forced to flee down a river to Silverport, a city on the edge of the mountainous region. Here they met the newest party member, Allucious, who was the son of the duke accused of killing his own father. He believes his brother did the crime and framed him for it, when in actuality the rebels killed both his (corrupt) father and brother, then replaced his brother with one of their own agents. The rebellion wants Allucious convicted so that their agent can take the throne. Enealis came to know Allucious well and promised to break him out of jail if he plead guilty. News reaches Silverport of the terrorism and everyone in the party is now a wanted criminal (survivors gave descriptions). Inside Silverport, Allucious pleads insanity and is sentenced to death in eight days. Enealis still intent on keeping his word comes up with a plan to break him out. He is going to attack some grimlocks sonthat they while march on the city While Allucious is being transported to the gallows. The sardonicus (allucious's "brother", being a rebel agent) will be late to the coronation (which happens at the same time as the hanging). Eneaalis hopes that the two diversions will be enough to save his friend from death and still put the rebel insurgent on the throne. The gridlocks his is going to attack are involved with mindflayers (they don't have their physic power (except for one who they won't fight for while) and have less HD) who the party will likely be engaging.

Also, in this campaign world there is very low magic. Only healers and harmers (a class I created) can cast spells spaontaneously. Creatures who have natural spell casting keep it (e.g. Dragons), but cannot take levels in wizard or sorcerer. One can still cast cleric rituals by taking feats the let them use minor cleric spells, but only when at an altar. I allowed one player to become an artificer (reflavored as no magic, all technogabble)

Sorry for how confusing and crammed together this information might seem. There is much more but I tried to make this a brief synopsis as possible. Feel free to ask questions.

Simply put, I need some riddles (some tough, some simple) a mindflayer might ask. Spoiler the answers and to my players- STAY OUT!

[Kelb_Panthera]

After reading your story, I'm not sure how mind-flayers figure into this.

Regardless, mindflayers are so much smarter and of such a different mindset that pretty much anything you use is going to fail to do them justice. Your best bet is probably to do this with mechanics instead of trying to come up with an actual riddle.

Something like "The illithid poses to you a question that is undoubtedly a riddle and asks for your response. Make an int check and a will save." if his int check beats the DC you set, he answers it right, but you then compare his will save to a DC you set and he takes wis damage on a failure, since he's succesfully forced his mind into a thought pattern it wasn't built for. If he fails the int check, then disregard the will save. Maybe use UA's complex skill check mechanics with that int check if you want a bit more tension.

[Fire Lord Pi]

Although I do like this idea and may well use it, I was hoping to engage my players in understanding the personality of the mindflayer. I had planned on making the mindflayer who is leading a cult and some grimlocks a BBEG who would test their intelligence by dishing out riddles. Maybe they could be his musings on societies in question form.

I myself can never seem to make good riddles.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Although I do like this idea and may well use it, I was hoping to engage my players in understanding the personality of the mindflayer. I had planned on making the mindflayer who is leading a cult and some grimlocks a BBEG who would test their intelligence by dishing out riddles. Maybe they could be his musings on societies in question form.

I myself can never seem to make good riddles.

You're going the wrong way. Mindflayer personalities are -supposed- to be alien and difficult to understand. This can be hammered home by complex plans, peculiar moral estimations, and generally wierd behavior.

A speech in which the mindflayer muses about how peculiar, yet simple we seem, particularly highlighting things that we consider normal, might be a better way to go about it. It'll highlight the fact that he thinks differently than us because we're wierd in his eyes, without actually over-humanizing him by giving the party his views. This may require that the party be captured, or at least tactically pinned down, so he can get his villainous monologue on, though.

[Shir]

The only riddle a Mindflayer should ever have is "why shouldn't I just eat your brains?"

[Sinfonian]

The only riddle a Mindflayer should ever have is "why shouldn't I just eat your brains?"

I was gonna suggest, "Who has a face full of tentacles, two thumbs, and is going to eat your brain?" *points at self* "This aberration!"

[DonEsteban]

You should consider the advice given above. But if you really want some strange, mindflayerish riddles, you could have a look at some old ones like these: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/onp/onp17.htm, http://www.lightspill.com/poetry/oe/oeriddles.html

You must know if your players will like this or not.

[Fire Lord Pi]

I was intending to put riddles in there, but after reading all this I think I might be trying to make mindflayers something they are not.

If anyone has any in-depth advice on playing mindflayers, it would be much appreciated.

[Driderman]

Honestly, mindflayer riddles seem a bit like asking about Xenomorph (you know, the alien from Alien) riddles: Doesn't really make sense since it's such an alien mindset. I imagine it a bit like if you asked an animal or insect for a riddle, only much crazier.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I was intending to put riddles in there, but after reading all this I think I might be trying to make mindflayers something they are not.

If anyone has any in-depth advice on playing mindflayers, it would be much appreciated.

While no human could ever really play a mindflayer perfectly, I've got a couple tips that can get you close.

First and foremost, always remember that these are creatures who are not like us. Their reproductive cycle, their utterly alien psychology, the basis of their society, even their basic physiological needs are different. If there's something about them that your players can identify with, you've made a mistake.

Lords of madness gives a whole chapter to these abominations that'd do a better job of this than I can, but here goes.

Illithids are way smarter than you or I. Any plan they have will have covered every angle imaginable with failsafes and contingencies. You either need to legitamately have a plan for anything that can go wrong, or be really good at winging it and pretending it was planned all along.

There is no analogue in any human culture to mindflayer society. They have no sense of honor, no compassion, nothing human to appeal to. Their society is all about cold logic. They're capable of rage and malice, but for the most part they're as close to organic machines as you can get.

Thralls have no intrinsic value. Make use of them however you see fit. Mindflayers know the capabilities of their thralls inside and out. Tactical groups will be built to complement each other fairly well and, if they have an illithid handler present, will use the most advanced tactics available to them based on those abilities, because their own intelligence isn't the guiding factor, their handler can direct them in real-time via telepathy.

Don't forget the telepathy. If squid-face is talking, he should only be heard by whom he chooses. You will not hear him give orders to his minions, you will not hear him discuss your fate with his peers, and if you're lucky you won't hear him gloating about how tastey your free-range brain will taste. (do feel free to throw down a villainous monologue though. These guys get a little egomaniacal at times.)

Going back to the smart thing, illithids will have already infiltrated the nearby government, either directly or with thralls, and are probably manipulating politics throughout the region. They've also got scouts in and around the territory surrounding their enclave. They already know who you are, and they know you're coming. They may even have figured it out before you did.

Mindflayers are the epitome of the evil mastermind, and the complete monster rolled together.

Btw, if you haven't considered it already, seriously think about making the mindflayer portion of your campaign a horror arc. Heroes of Horror is a great resource for this, and I'd be happy to elaborate if you're interested.

[Fire Lord Pi]

I'm not sure I want to make the mindflayer arc any more than 4-6 levels long, maximum. The mindflayers they will be involved with are a cult of about 10 questing for an ancient artifact in the mountains. The grimlocks are the grunts used for mining deeper and deeper. Only one of the flayers can use his physic powers by channeling the elder brain (far, far away) with a gem he has. I'm sure they would have lots of contingencies for every battle, but I don't want to make them the prime villians of the campaign.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm not sure I want to make the mindflayer arc any more than 4-6 levels long, maximum. The mindflayers they will be involved with are a cult of about 10 questing for an ancient artifact in the mountains. The grimlocks are the grunts used for mining deeper and deeper. Only one of the flayers can use his physic powers by channeling the elder brain (far, far away) with a gem he has. I'm sure they would have lots of contingencies for every battle, but I don't want to make them the prime villians of the campaign.

Depending on how you do xp 4-6 levels can be 52-78 battles. Even at 6 battles per session that's at least 9 sessions, and consequently about a school semester. Does that sound about right to you?

Since they're just after this artifact, the mindflayers are probably more concerned with secrecy than anything else. I don't really understand why they'd interact with the party except to try and get rid of them. I'm curious why so many of the squid-heads too though? 10 is quite an expedition if they've got a goodly supply of thralls. Flayers typically eat 2 brains a month. For 10 of them that's 10 brains a week.

Actually, now that I've typed that, your players would be in serious danger of becoming game animals to this group.

Sorry to keep poking holes in your plot, btw. :smallredface:

[Fire Lord Pi]

I'm actually quite thankful for your help. If my players catch one wif of plot holeyness they go crazy.

We game once a week for about 4 hours. Sometimes we plow through encounters and sometimes nothing get done. Often, though, we have sessions without dice and a whole bunch of RPXP is given out.

I think I'll make it four flayers to be more reasonable. And it's not so much the mindflayers after the party as the other way round.

I'm also curious about the warforged. His brain couldn't be eaten but no doubt the flayers would be interested in it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm actually quite thankful for your help. If my players catch one wif of plot holeyness they go crazy.

We game once a week for about 4 hours. Sometimes we plow through encounters and sometimes nothing get done. Often, though, we have sessions without dice and a whole bunch of RPXP is given out.

I think I'll make it four flayers to be more reasonable. And it's not so much the mindflayers after the party as the other way round.

I'm also curious about the warforged. His brain couldn't be eaten but no doubt the flayers would be interested in it.

His brain couldn't be eaten, but it can be dominated. I'd imagine that mindflayers would hold warforged as prized thralls. They never get tired, they require no maintainence beyond a bit of repair now and again, and they're even weak willed! (Warforged have a racial wis penalty, right?)

4 squid-heads sounds much more reasonable for an expeditionary force. You might want to drop some hints about how dangerous they are; rumors of people gone missing from the area, an escaped thrall or two to relate the horrors of being a mind-slave, that sort of thing.

[Blightedmarsh]

I have a question. How well do ilithids handle insane off the wall, out of the blue out of context problems. IE A dwarven barbarian walks into a bar, has a drink and then uses portal rings to unleash a horde of dragon marked goblin warlocks; riding warforged veloceraptors.

The question becomes how would you handle something like that? Because if you tell your players that these guys are hyper intelligent and have plans for all contingencies then you can bet that sure as eggs is eggs your players will try to find something you did not think of.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I have a question. How well do ilithids handle insane off the wall, out of the blue out of context problems. IE A dwarven barbarian walks into a bar, has a drink and then uses portal rings to unleash a horde of dragon marked goblin warlocks; riding warforged veloceraptors.

The question becomes how would you handle something like that? Because if you tell your players that these guys are hyper intelligent and have plans for all contingencies then you can bet that sure as eggs is eggs your players will try to find something you did not think of.

In your particular example they wouldn't have thought of that. Of course that's because your example scenario is impossible. Ring gates have a fairly low limit for how much can go through them in a day and they're too small for either of those creatures to go through individually, much less together.

On the greater question you've posed, that's why I said you might also want to be good at winging it and pretending you had a plan all along. Sure you didn't really have a plan, but the mindflayer did.

These guys start with int in the mid 20's. Whatever you've got, they've already thought of it. Whether they've made any serious preparation is dependent mostly on the likelihood of that scenario and available resources.

[Blightedmarsh]

So the answer is to assess their resources then go for a plan that is a A) workable B) exploits an ilithid resource deficiency C) most improbable D) Won't cause; apocalypse/destruction of whatever it is you are trying to proseve/your death/your eternal damnation (optional).

The other alternative is to leave them a no easy win scenario and a way out.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So the answer is to assess their resources then go for a plan that is a A) workable B) exploits an ilithid resource deficiency C) most improbable D) Won't cause; apocalypse/destruction of whatever it is you are trying to proseve/your death/your eternal damnation (optional).

The other alternative is to leave them a no easy win scenario and a way out.

Exactly. ^This guy gets it.

[Blightedmarsh]

On the question of the riddle, it does not have to be A) hard or B) possible. Their minds work differently, but just because they are hyper bright does not mean to say that they get the concept of riddles, or get the idea that riddles should be hard (or indeed what would constitute hard); it could be that it pulled the first riddle out of the head of the nearest thrall.

Combat is all about the balance between whats at stake and what the likeley costs are. The ilithid will only retreat if retreat is a viable option. If they are locked into a do or die today senario then they will not give in, not in the face of near certain death even if the way out is right there.



In your particular example they wouldn't have thought of that. Of course that's because your example scenario is impossible. Ring gates have a fairly low limit for how much can go through them in a day and they're too small for either of those creatures to go through individually, much less together.


So now the question becomes how do you temporally miniaturize an army of warforged dinosaurs with attendant mercenary elderich gobliniods for transit?

[Kelb_Panthera]

On the question of the riddle, it does not have to be A) hard or B) possible. Their minds work differently, but just because they are hyper bright does not mean to say that they get the concept of riddles, or get the idea that riddles should be hard (or indeed what would constitute hard); it could be that it pulled the first riddle out of the head of the nearest thrall.

Combat is all about the balance between whats at stake and what the likeley costs are. The ilithid will only retreat if retreat is a viable option. If they are locked into a do or die today senario then they will not give in, not in the face of near certain death even if the way out is right there.



So now the question becomes how do you temporally miniaturize an army of warforged dinosaurs with attendant mercenary elderich gobliniods for transit?

meh. If you're capable of that level of magic then why bother with armies?

[Blightedmarsh]

So the answer is to assess their resources then go for a plan that is a A) workable B) exploits an ilithid resource deficiency C) most improbable D) Won't cause; apocalypse/destruction of whatever it is you are trying to proseve/your death/your eternal damnation (optional).

See part C). If you are capable of magic of that level and the ilithids are aware of you interest (big if; Intelligent /= omniscient) then they will prepare against it.

By pulling off something they know to be impossible they will be forced to drastically reassess the situation and what they believe you are capable off.

[Driderman]

On the question of the riddle, it does not have to be A) hard or B) possible. Their minds work differently, but just because they are hyper bright does not mean to say that they get the concept of riddles, or get the idea that riddles should be hard (or indeed what would constitute hard); it could be that it pulled the first riddle out of the head of the nearest thrall.

Combat is all about the balance between whats at stake and what the likeley costs are. The ilithid will only retreat if retreat is a viable option. If they are locked into a do or die today senario then they will not give in, not in the face of near certain death even if the way out is right there.



So now the question becomes how do you temporally miniaturize an army of warforged dinosaurs with attendant mercenary elderich gobliniods for transit?

I imagine that if an Illithid poses a riddle to an adventuring party, it has already planned the outcome. If it wants the PCs to solve the riddle, the riddle is likely to be rather easy as the Illithid considers the PCs to be stupid "cattle".
Possibly, as mentioned, the first riddle it can rip from the mind of a thrall, which could lead to all sorts of hilarity depending on the cultural origins of said thrall :smallsmile:

[Blue1005]

I was gonna suggest, "Who has a face full of tentacles, two thumbs, and is going to eat your brain?" *points at self* "This aberration!"

LOVE IT! Or play rock, paper, brain straw...

[Sith_Happens]

The only riddle a Mindflayer should ever have is "why shouldn't I just eat your brains?"

Darn, I was going to be all clever and post this:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=189641&type=card

But... Oh wait, I just did.:smalltongue:

[turbo164]

Regardless, mindflayers are so much smarter and of such a different mindset that pretty much anything you use is going to fail to do them justice. Your best bet is probably to do this with mechanics instead of trying to come up with an actual riddle.

Something like "The illithid poses to you a question that is undoubtedly a riddle and asks for your response. Make an int check and a will save." if his int check beats the DC you set, he answers it right, but you then compare his will save to a DC you set and he takes wis damage on a failure, since he's succesfully forced his mind into a thought pattern it wasn't built for. If he fails the int check, then disregard the will save. Maybe use UA's complex skill check mechanics with that int check if you want a bit more tension.



First and foremost, always remember that these are creatures who are not like us. Their reproductive cycle, their utterly alien psychology, the basis of their society, even their basic physiological needs are different. If there's something about them that your players can identify with, you've made a mistake.





"Which is less orange: sand, tolerence, or a Blue Slaad?"

Skill check hints:
*You think one of the three choices is intended to be a joke
*"Tolerance" is not the joke
*The remaining choices appear equal...

Answer:
Both

"What has eyes that see everything but themselves, and a brain that tastes of raspberries?"

Skill check hints:
*The eyes part hints at invisibility, but this seems too obvious
*If there is a dwarf or orc in the party, give him a +10 bonus to guess "elf!"
*Wait, what can't see itself in a mirror?

Answer:
An Elf Vampire

"What is the answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything...if triangles no longer existed in the fifth dimension?"

Skill check hints:
*Some crazy wizards in the past have said it was 42, do Mind Flayers believe that?
*Time is important for the second part
*You feel dizzy

Answer:
Last week. (the flayer should give a telepath ripple approximating a laugh and say "close!" to any creative answer)

"I am tall but not damp,
Grey but not wise,
Young but not empty,
Cold but not adjacent,
Sour but not metallic,
Eternal but not yet.
Who am I?"

Skill check hints:
*:smallconfused:
*:smalleek:
*Wait, weren't those nicknames for that obscure librarian in Mind Flayer history...
*Narlish the Hated?
*Nortlis the Hapless?

G'northliss, wearing a hat of course.


...this was too much fun :smallbiggrin:

[Arcanist]

Regardless, mindflayers are so much smarter and of such a different mindset that pretty much anything you use is going to fail to do them justice.

I find that somewhat offensive on my part (Whose actually created a Mindflayer riddle). In my opinion a Mindflayer riddle will be a riddle inside a riddle with an answer that is invariably a riddle. (Riddle > Riddle = Riddle). The riddle being so advanced and complicated that a mere Human, of even near divine intelligence, simply wouldn't understand the simplest of Illithid riddles.

[SaintRidley]

I'll try to put some time into writing Illithiriddles this weekend, but some things to consider as you go forward with your own efforts:

Illithid riddles should blend past, present, and future very fluidly. Due to their origins, their understanding of the nature of time is very much not like what we conceive of.

Remember your bizarre biology. If the riddle in any way touches on biology, weird it up.

Read the chapter in Lords of Madness. Figure out some Illithid symbolism to use, to make things even harder.

[v072]

Darn, I was going to be all clever and post this:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=189641&type=card

But... Oh wait, I just did.:smalltongue:

On a similar note,
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=233183&type=card

[GolemsVoice]

You could start with normal riddles, because the MF is just amusing himself with his prey. Also, since they eat brains, it might be a kind of preliminary "tasting" to see who's got the tasties intellect.
Then the riddles would become stranger and stranger, until they don't even make sense anymore. Also, the MF could talk about things he knows the PCs will have no idea of, like events from the future-past they come from, Minfdlayer ideas and symbolism and so on, just to torment them and be intentionally obtuse.

Just of the top of my head:

"Three people walk under the black sun of T'narech. The second moon rises, and the black sun begins it's first of eight cycles. The nightgaunts wake. The people walk in a straight line, towards Nagar-Grack. Whom will the nightgaunts take first, whom second, who will survive?"

It's maybe a bad example, but here you have a riddle that would maybe make perfect sense to a MF, because he knew all the variables involved, but would utterly confuse any non-Mindflayer.

[DontEatRawHagis]

Mind Flayer-ness Riddle.

What has two thumbs and doesn't like their brain sucked out of the head with a bendy straw?
Answer: You!

What is a terrible thing to waste?
A mind!

A Lateral Thinking Problem:
Its 1971, a swedish man crashes into a tree. Why did he crash? Nothing Medical. Nothing wrong with the car.
Answer: A moose. He saw it in the road, swerved and hit a tree. The moose was not in the backseat.

[nedz]

My first is not in your head, but is in my belly.
My second is in rip, but not in nom nom.
My third is in aargh, and also in running away.
My fourth is in I, but not in you.
My fifth is in painless, but not in struggle.
So what is the answer to my riddle ?
What ? No answer.
Damm, must remember to ask the riddle before lunch.

[Sutremaine]

Brrip.

(Symbolically, living as it does on land, it is complementary to the zyqxuwy.)