Chosen class, need op. [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Anium

2012-10-21, 10:29 AM

Kelb_Panthera

2012-10-21, 11:30 AM

Hi, I'm starting a new campaing on wich we are entering a "military school" and we rolled our roles in diferent ways. Starting level one, medium op(means ok to take good feats, but no strange combos). My roll gave me a Fighter/Warmage with 28 point buy. I can pick race, feats and whatever. Flaws might be allowed, but not sure. The only change i could do for the class is swap fighter for Knight.

The rest of the team is a monk/favored soul, a ninja/sorcerer and a ranger/beguiler. I'd apreciate saying the source of the feats/races or alternate features you suggest.

Thanks in advance.

Before I give any advice, are there any other randomly determined portions of your character generation we should know about?

The dice have given you fighter (or knight) and warmage. Will the dice be determining how many levels of each?

If not, I'd suggest going either with something vaguely gishy, or a mailman style setup (ab)using metamagic to the best of your ability and only leaving fighter on the sheet as a curious footnote.

Gray Mage

2012-10-21, 11:31 AM

Is this Gestalt or you must be a multiclass Fighter/Warmage?

Inferno

2012-10-21, 11:33 AM

Is this a Gestalt game? If not those are rather odd class choices and some more info is going to be needed for any useful tips.
Its going to be fairly tough to find any proper synergy between Fighter and Warmage, but depending on what you're focusing on (your spells or weapons) there's a few options like using your Fighter feats to boost "Weapon-like spells (Complete Arcane) getting precise shot, improved critical and the like.

Focusing on weapons on the other hand Arcane Strike (complete Warrior) can give you some solid damage and to-hit boni.

You probably want the battle caster feat (Complete Arcane) to make better use of that armor proficiency.

Anium

2012-10-21, 12:35 PM

hex0

2012-10-21, 03:53 PM

Books? If you can't multiclass, then you can salvage Fighter//Warmage by taking the Kensai fighter variant focusing in Rays...though that is a bit of stretch.

Can you play Duskblade//Warmage instead by any chance? Even by not multiclassing/prestiging, you could make it work.

Edit: Reread the post. Yeah I would just focus on rays. Weapon Focus/Spec in rays... and/or WF: touch spells so you can pick up Touch Spell Specialization.

Gavinfoxx

2012-10-21, 03:56 PM

Yea, can you change to classes with the same sorts of theme?

Warblade? Duskblade? Sorcerer? Any Psionic classes?

eggs

2012-10-21, 04:02 PM

I can see two ways to do this:

1. Specifically dedicate standard actions and normal feat slots to using and improving the Warmage and its blasting and control spells, and using Fighter feats to accumulate defensive abilities, AoO effects, and ideally fighter fear optimization (relies on Zhentarim Soldier sub levels, which may not be available).

2. Really push the handful of buffs the Warmage gets, and use Advanced/Eclectic Learning for shapeshifting and natural weapon abilities, which tend to have the most gish-enabling power/versatility for their investment.

The prior would be easier to pull off, grabbing some rider effects like Born of Three Thunders or Fell Drain, and would probably be more powerful, but make the Warmage's weaker spellcasting especially conspicuous.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2012-10-21, 04:30 PM

I'd go Fighter 2/ Warmage 6/ Abjurant Champion 5/ (full casting classes) 7.

Those last seven levels can include Paragnostic Apostle (any number of levels from one to five), Divine Oracle (four works best), Archmage (not recommended), Incantatrix (at least three levels, not as high-op as normal due to your spell list), Spellsword (just a one level dip), etc. Just as long as you don't lose any spellcasting in those last seven levels you'll be fine, as you'll still get 9th level spells at 20th.

Use the Eclectic Learning ACF in PH2 for Warmage. Use the Dungeoncrasher ACF in Dungeonscape for Fighter. Pick up the feat Versatile Spellcaster in Races of the Dragon and you can get early access to the next higher level of spells, though you may need to take Heighten Spell or Sanctum Spell depending on how your DM rules Versatile Spellcaster's interaction with Warmage spells known. That will let you get a 2nd level (1st level non-evocation counted as 2nd level) spell with your Warmage 3 Eclectic Learning, which should be Shield. At your Warmage 6 eclectic learning get Melf's Unicorn Arrow (PH2), which you can use with Dungeoncrasher and note that the source of the spell is 'in midair' so you can make it bull rush opponents down into the ground to enable Dungeoncrasher.

Be sure to get Practiced Spellcaster (CD) and Arcane Strike (CW) along with Power Attack. Pick up a +1 Spell Storing weapon asap, and a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Maximize since you can put a metamagic version of a 3rd level spell into the spell storing weapon as long as it's not heightened. This is mostly a blasty gish with almost no buffs or protections to speak of, due to the limited spell list of Warmage. In the earliest levels use a reach weapon with Combat Reflexes, supplement your attacks with ranged damage spells once you get them. When you get 3rd level spells you can stick to crowd controls like (Lesser Rod of Extended) Ice/Sleet Storm and Stinking Cloud, and Black Tentacles, and spend most of your spell slots to power Arcane Strike or throw a big AoE when the situation calls for it. Pick up some of the Raiment of the Four item set (MIC) to get a few more spell options (Freedom of Movement, Teleport).

If the Versatile Spellcaster trick won't work for you or if your group/DM doesn't like it, skip it and switch the build to Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon) 1/ Fighter 1/ Warmage 1/ Human Paragon 2/ Warmage 2/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Full Casting Classes 7, which doesn't get Dungeoncrasher or Melf's Unicorn Arrow, but keeps Shield. Note that with Human Paragon you can make Use Magic Device a class skill forever, and use Wands, Scrolls, and Staffs (and Runestaffs, MIC p224) of spells not on the Warmage class list, including divine spells.

hex0

2012-10-21, 04:39 PM

No multiclass is to be assumed, so I guess it will be straight Fighter//Warmage 20...

Anium

2012-10-21, 04:44 PM

Kelb_Panthera

2012-10-21, 04:55 PM

No, the classes are fixed(thats the point of having random classes), My only choice in that matter is fighter or knight, the knight gives a bit of sinergy but i don't think I want people hitting me and the code is anoying. So my though was to start like this
Fighter/Warmage Human
Stats are (28 point buy):
Str: 10; Dex: 16; Con: 14; Int: 12; Wis: 8; Cha: 14

Feats: Versatile spellcaster, Battle caster, Combat expertise.
Just take a bow and shoot people? I'm not sure, the mix is so MAD I don't know what to do.

Pick one or the other as your focus and don't worry too much about optimizing the other side.

This says to me, mailman who also happens to be a fighter. Start stacking those metamagics.

Also, ask the DM about that one warmage acf where you get to add a few sorc/wiz spells to your list, I think it's in complete mage, and pick up arcane preparation at some point so that you can get more than one metamagic on a spell without having to burn uses of metamagic rods and sudden <metamagic>.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2012-10-21, 05:14 PM

Srry, forgot to mention, The game is gestalt, starting level 1. I think the game will be slow son for now i'm interested in short term power, maybe untill level 5 max, and as the dm made us roll the class I doubt he will let us multi-class or even go to Prc.

Missed that bit.

Still get the Dungeoncrasher ACF for Fighter from Dungeonscape. Also pick up the Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) sub levels (rename it Big Bad Bully if you want), and get free class features (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a). Also consider switching Ride for Tumble (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) as a class skill, and the Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) variant may also be useful.

Still use Eclectic Learning from PH2 for Warmage. Definitely pick up Versatile Spellcaster in Races of the Dragon, and either Heighten Spell or Sanctum Spell if it will be necessary to get early knowledge of the next higher level of spells on your class spell list. Definitely grab Melf's Unicorn Arrow in PH2 since you can use it with Dungeoncrasher. Since the spell's source is 'in midair' you can have it appear directly above the target and bull rush them against the ground to enable Dungeoncrasher damage.

Starting at level 1 I'd get Combat Reflexes and use a reach weapon, maybe Power Attack + Cleave if you want to switch some stats. Later get a few Lesser Metamagic Rods of Extend to use with Ice/Sleet Storm and Stinking Cloud, and use Black Tentacles when it becomes available. You can make great use of Arcane Strike + Power Attack, and throw out AoEs, ranged nukes, and crowd controls when necessary. Try to get a +1 Spell Storing weapon and a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Maximize, as metamagic versions of spells don't have their actual level changed unless they're Heightened.

Gavinfoxx

2012-10-21, 05:20 PM

To what extent can you choose ACF's from the classes?

Anium

2012-10-21, 05:34 PM

Well, change of plans. Even if I accepted the challenge looks like my Game mates nagged the DM to death and he changed the rules. The new options are.

First class choice: Barbarian, scout, knight, ranger, fighter, monk, ninja, rogue.
Second class choice: Favored soul, cleric, beguiler, sorcerer and warmage.

Sight... He said it will be straight 20/20(though i think we will finish way before we reach level 5) so no Prcs or dips. ACF limited to 2 choices(one per class), still 28 point buy, and he doesnt want any strange combos or races.(he banned DMM and CC).

Thx for the help guys. But I liked the mailman so i guess sorcerer mixed with something, though i liked the idea of casting with armor....

hex0

2012-10-21, 05:38 PM

I'd probably go Monk//Cleric, given those options.

Kelb_Panthera

2012-10-21, 05:41 PM

Monk//cleric is the obvious power choice, but rogue//beguiler could be fun.

Anium

2012-10-21, 05:51 PM

Monk/cleric? ¿Even with 28point buy? I don't see any benefit from gestalt until high level, and i think i'll need something powerfull through the 5 first levels as I said.

Gavinfoxx

2012-10-21, 05:53 PM

I'd go Barbarian//Cleric

There are a LOT of ACF's for both sides that are very very tasty! Remember, you can make a Monk out of Barbarian with enough ACF's anyway...

I would go with, on the Barbarian Side:

Whirling Frenzy
Skilled City Dweller
Spirit Lion Totem
Wolf Totem
maybe City Brawler
maybe Street Fighter

on the Cleric Side, I would go:

Cloistered Cleric
Destroy Undead
maybe Spontaneous Domain
maybe Divine Magician

Oh one per class. Uhm. Spirit Lion Totem / Cloistered. No, wait, end before level 5? Whirling Frenzy Cloistered, I guess.

Boci

2012-10-21, 05:57 PM

Anium

2012-10-21, 06:03 PM

Divine metamagic and Complete Champion(he hates devotion feats)

hex0

2012-10-21, 06:04 PM

Then I would go for Monk//Cloistered Cleric :smallbiggrin:

Mishkov

2012-10-21, 06:11 PM

You could go basically back to your original plan of mailman but beef it up a ton with sorc // rogue.

Get metamagic, ray spells, then add SA dice and misc rogue defensive options. It might be too strong given the group if someone else isn't going monk//cleric.

Alternatively, a barbarian//beguiler who tries to charm people and then gets pissed off and flies into a rage when it doesn't work might be fun to play.

hex0

2012-10-21, 06:16 PM

Alternatively, a barbarian//beguiler who tries to charm people and then gets pissed off and flies into a rage when it doesn't work might be fun to play.

You can always sleep or charm people to lay down then roflstomp them as well.

Gavinfoxx

2012-10-21, 06:17 PM

He banned Complete Champion? Damn...

Well, banning DMM and Devotion feats sounds like he doesn't like powerful Clerics in general...

hex0

2012-10-21, 06:20 PM

Even core clerics though, are powerful...

Anium

2012-10-21, 06:23 PM

Too many options, I almost almost prefer when i couldnt get the choice :P

I see the wis synergy in monk-cleric but with the low point buy wouldnt the AC be too low? I dont want to be a glass cannon and die stupidly killed by a kobold.

I like the barbarian idea, but i can't cast spells while in rage:smallconfused: .. and unless I take warmage or divine caster my AC will suck...

Gavinfoxx

2012-10-21, 06:28 PM

I like the barbarian idea, but i can't cast spells while in rage:smallconfused: .. and unless I take warmage or divine caster my AC will suck...

Well, the main idea for Cleric would be for long-duration buffs to melee, as well as some utility stuff. Whirling Frenzy happens to be just another buff to melee. Make sense? And you get armor class from (Breastplate!) Armor and long-duration spells as a Barbarian/Cloistered Cleric. Also, use a reach weapon (guisarme + armor spikes!)

hex0

2012-10-21, 06:33 PM

I see the wis synergy in monk-cleric but with the low point buy wouldnt the AC be too low? I dont want to be a glass cannon and die stupidly killed by a kobold.

Monk has all good saves and Evasion and 4 skills, so WIS>STR>CON>DEX>INT>CHA would work. Depends on race though, of course.

Anium

2012-10-22, 02:13 PM

What do you think of this then:

Spellscale sorcerer/Fighter(armored mage)
Racial substitution level sorcerer dragonblood(golden dragon)
Str: 10; Dex: 16; Con: 12; Int: 8; Wis: 8; Cha: 18
Feats: Dragon power, Point blank shot.

Or Maybe...

Gray elf, Scout/warmage

Str: 8; Dex: 18; Con: 10; Int: 16; Wis: 8; Cha: 14
Feats Point blank shot.

I'd say the second will rip people appart, moving with a cantrip(1d3+4+1d6) at low levels(I expect the game to move arround 1-5 at most).

hex0

2012-10-22, 06:33 PM

I like the first build better. Can you take Dragon Disciple at all?

Mishkov

2012-10-22, 07:58 PM

Warmage is a good choice if you're not advancing past 5.

I'd really consider rogue/sorc though if you're thinking long term. I'm not sure what fighter is bringing you unless you really want to be gishy that SA with rays, a boatload of skills and abilities on top of your spells isn't.

I like your warmage/scout build for 5 and less though--I might switch the INT to 18 and the DEX to 16 though. If you do start going above 5, you'll be hurting a bit though.

Eldariel

2012-10-22, 08:26 PM

Warmage/Scout is...nothing to write home about early on; a Whirling Frenzy level 1 Barbarian does 2x2d6+9 on level 1 and that's without a second class which can add some more (to hit or damage as desired). Warmage and Scout both have rather well-scaling damage by class level but their base damage is crap. 1d3+4 is nothing to write home about and neither is 1d6. Together, they're still behind a Greatsword + 14 Strength, albeit with a short range and touch (not that big on level 1, frankly).

However, level 2 improves blasting vastly and level 3 you actually start to get competitive damage with level 1 warriors. Level 5 is a high point with 5d6 base from Random Level 1 Spell; you might actually outdamage a Barbarian for that level, accounting for To Hit (assuming he can't afford to PA for lots anyways).

ericgrau

2012-10-22, 09:27 PM

It seems like archery fighter bonus feats would be good. Even if you never use a bow they help rays. Your attack bonus will help especially at low level. Don't be afraid to prepare area damage for swarms of enemies too. Point blank shot, precise shot, weapon focus (ray spells), improved precise shot and maybe weapon specialization (ray spells) if you get it early enough. It's lousy later but early on it's 15% more damage and you mentioned this would have slow leveling. Use your fighter bonus feats on those and reserve your normal feats for magic stuff like empower.

For a race, in the Player's Handbook halfling is best for ray casters because it has a dex bonus and size bonus to hit. The AC and greater effective carrying capacity (smaller gear > small size & -2 str) don't hurt either. Out of the PH another small dex race like whisper gnome (races of stone IIRC) is nice. They're overpowered compared to core but not crazy broken. They get con, good vision, good sneakiness and 30 foot movement speed on top of most of what a halfling gets.

Gnorman

2012-10-23, 02:32 AM

Monk doesn't offer much that the cleric chassis doesn't already have (2 more skill points and a slightly better Reflex save), and its abilities kind of interfere with the cleric's shtick (being a heavily-armored beatstick). Monk never makes anything better.

Barbarian, on the other hand, works out pretty well, especially if you can pair it with the cloistered variety (you won't want to wear heavy armor anyway, so as to preserve fast movement). Not... really sure how you'd imagine the combination, though. Perhaps a quiet, studious cleric who gets very, very angry?

Knight works well with cleric, too, adding some extra beefiness. Fighter is acceptable but not overwhelming.

Sorcerer/rogue would also be fun.

Anium

2012-10-23, 03:21 AM

Thx for the help. What I decided is, I want ofensive magic and I want armor. I know sorcerer is better at spellcasting and the only way i know to give him that armor is by fighter(armored mage), I will hurt in skills but will basically be a sorcerer with better AB, light armor(burning two feats for taking med? don't think so) and a few feats, limited to fighter feats I guess ray feats is the best I can do, hope you can help me there. The rogue doesnt let me wear armor with the sorcerer, and being low level I fear being one hited. If instead of armored sorcerer I want to make it gish, think the dwarven sorcerer is a good substitution level? Alertness and DR 1/adamantite for the familiar.

The scout/warmage is just for blasting but i think it does pretty well, gives me a lot of skills(including trapfinding), initiative bonus and fort saves, and evasion way later, but still gives it.

I like the clerics, and I know it can be powerfull, but i'm more for the hurting magic this time.

Mishkov

2012-10-23, 08:56 AM

I don't know what armor you're planning on that's not better than mage armor or luminous armor, wings of cover, grease, etc plus evasion, escape artist skill ranks to get out of grapple, slippery mind, etc. If you do insist on going full fighter with sorc for some reason, you could consider picking up the entire weapon specialization line for ray weapons or touch attacks because you will have feats to burn. Make sure you grab improved initiative and go full mailman mode on the other side though.

If you're thinking about a gish, a cleric//fighter would be a complete monster. Buff yourself, wear heavy armor anyway, go bash some heads. Spontaneously convert your buffs to heal if things get too messy. Look at things like the strength and war domains and imagine having full BAB on top of that.

Gnorman

2012-10-23, 05:54 PM

Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) may be relevant to your concerns, allowing you to basically get what you want out of warmage while still affording you greater license to pick your spells.

You do get less of them, though.