Need a hand with a BBEG build

[Noctis Vigil]

I'm not sure if this is the forum section for this. If it isn't, someone poke me and I'll poke a mod.

I'll start with this: people in my group (you know who you are) go no further. This thread discusses eventual enemies you'll meet.

With that out of the way, I need to tap the optimizers on this board, as I'm a horrid optimizer, and need to make a specific type of character for a recurring BBEG I'm working on.

Specifically, he has to really suck.

To be even more specific, his build needs to be such that I can easily take what he has that sucks for, oh, 20 levels and then slap a level of badass on him to let the wimp the PCs have been stomping on and laughing at as the evil wannabe totally kick their butts all the sudden.

General thoughts I've had/guidelines I've set to follow for myself are:
1.) gestalt
2.) necromancer
3.) no levels in divine spellcasting classes

One of the problems I'm hitting is that while I've used undead in my games before, I've never really touched necromancers, and as such have very little idea how to make one, good or bad. I'm thinking of going Wizard for one half of the gestalt, and possibly Sorcerer for the other.

This leads me to specific questions for the board:
1.) What classes do you suggest for this build? They can be either base or prestige, if you think it would help. Please tell me the book the class is in if you suggest one, or provide a link if it's an online/homebrew class.
2.) What spells/feats/skills/abilities would be good for a necromancer? More specifically, what spells/feats/skills/abilities can be bad if used incorrectly, but would mesh together well when I invoke Crouching Moron Hidden Badass (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrouchingMoronHiddenBadass)?
3.) Does anyone have any...unorthodox suggestions for this build? Ideas PCs would never, ever suspect? (At least one of my players is infuriatingly good at guessing my plots ahead of time)
4.) Any general advice for running good necromancers?

Oh, my players will probably be seeing this guy for the first time around level 7 or 8, so the build has to start at least that strong (but not necessarily; he is supposed to be a pushover when they first see him).

Thank you in advance to anyone who helps or posts a suggestion. :smallsmile:

EDIT: Crap, I'm sorry guys, I forgot to mention what's banned at my table. Sorry.

Banned stuff:
1.) ToB
2.) Incarnum
3.) ToM

[Malroth]

Well easiest way to Suck as a Necromancer type is just to be a Straight Focused specalist necromancer and take nothing but corpse crafter feats before you get Animate dead at level 7. If he hasn't managet to get his hands on an Onyx mine or two by lv 8 the ability to create really powerful undead that explode, move faster and have better STR than the original creature is meaningless if he's too poor to create undead in the first place.

That being said, how exactly is he planning on being a reccuring problem to the PC's, if his spell selection is subpar at the first meeting how is it he's going to avoid becoming a splatter on the wall before his build starts coming together correctly?


As for how to run a necromancy wizard correctly... Ignore the whole undead creation aspect untill you're rich high level, and need meatshields . Instead, grab empower spell, and Twin spell Quicken-Spell, Metamagic school focus for necromancy, Arcane thesis for both Shivering Touch and Enervation and focus your energies on ultra metamagiced versions of no-save just Suck debuffs that can win entire encounters for you in a single spell.


EDIT Sample Late Blooming Crouching Idiot Hidden Badass Build
Tactics, Early game he's pretty much a pure buffer/debuffer and lacks the feats to be a credible threat using tricks optimized necromancers use. Starting around lv 9 his build starts coming together and he'll start presenting a challenge with stronger undead buffed by bardsong and White raven maneuvers.

Silverbrow,Human Middle aged (+1 all mental stats -1 all physical stats)
Flaws : Innatentive -4 on spot Listen and Search checks (easy to sneak up on or escape from on their low level encounters)
Flaws : Weak Will -3 to will saves.

Lv 1: Focused Specalist Necromancer 1// Bard 1
Skeletal Minion Necromancer Variant and Bardic Sage Bard Variant
For Banned Schools pick Illusion, Enchantment and Abjuration since you'll get the best in those schools from bard anyway.
Stats: 19 INT, Decent Dex and CHA
Feats: (normal)Able Learner, (flaw)Melodic Casting, (flaw)Heighten spell(bonus), Toumb Tainted Soul(human)
Skills. Max ranks in Spellcraft, Perform(oratory) , Hide, Move Silently,Bluff, Disguise Knowledge (religion) and Concentration, Other skills to taste.

Lv 2 Necromancer 2// Bard 2
Grab the bard spell Inspiration Boost.

LV 3 Necromancer 3// Bard 3
Feat: Corpse Crafter

LV 4 Necromancer 4// Bard 4
Stats +INT

LV 5 Necromancer 5// Bard 5
Feat: Fell Animate

Lv 6: Necromancer6// Bard 6
Feat: Dragonfire Inspiration

Lv 7: Necromancer 7// Bard 7
Notes: Finally can create basic undead and is an awesome buffer from bard but can't augment Undead with music yet.

Lv 8: Necromancer 8// Bard 8
Stats +Con if odd otherwise + INT

LV 9: Necromancer 8/Ultimate Magus1// Bard 8/Crusader 1
Feat: Requiem Bard boosts now affect Undead!!!!
Crusader: You're a 5th level Initiator so grab Leading the attack, Lions Roar and Tactics of the Wolf, Also you can use Devoted Spirit attacks vs your own undead allies for self healing in mass combat.
Skills: Keep Perform and concentrate maxed others to taste

Lv10: Necromancer 8/Ultimate Magus 2//Bard8/crusader 1/Dirgesinger 1
DC 10+Perform modifier Save or suck for all enemies in auditory range

Lv 11: Necromancer 8Ultimate Magus 3//Bard8/Crusader 1/Dirgesinger 2
+10 turn resistance for all your undead "friends"
You also get "Animate Dread warrior" so you can use Magic Jar to swap bodies with some Undead Monstrisity you create yourself.

Lv 12: Necromancer 8Ultimate Magus 4//Bard8/Crusader 2/Dirgesinger 2
Feat: Song of the White raven

Not 100% sure how to continue from here.

[Fable Wright]

Hm... if you're willing to play it with a certain amount of Idiot Ball, a straight Duskblade//Dread Necromancer could work. Before level 13, his combat is more or less running straight at someone and trying to hit them with a debuff and a melee attack (with probably some extra damage from Power Attack and Arcane Strike, but whatever). He's competent, but he can be dealt with relatively easily. And then level 8 comes, he has some undead to support him, but he's still not the best at doing damage individually. And then level 14 comes, and he's Death Incarnate. By which I mean, Full Attack Channelling Avasculate for a No-Save-Just-Die full attack. If you want to stall it out a bit, throwing two Totemist levels on the Duskblade side, and some levels of Abjurant Champion, and you can go up to level 19 without really shining (you're Channeling Avasculate and Harm, and casting Plague of Undead, but your damage is still behind everyone else's), and then you become Death Incarnate at level 20, when you can Full Attack with 4 natural attacks that, with Multiattack and Arcane Strike, are almost guaranteed to hit and kill people. Oh, and you also become a Lich, meaning that each of the attacks can paralyze your opponents on a failed save, if the HP destruction wasn't enough. Be sure to grab a Flaw or something to grab Undead Meldshaping at 20th level. This also opens up dumping the character's Constitution at creation, making him go down easier, and having him rise as a tank after he becomes a Lich (bonus HP from Undead Mastery, being created in a Desecrated area, and Corpsecrafter gives the equivalent of 22 Con after giving him d12 HD).

So, in summary: From levels 1-19, he's a Paper-Mache Shotgun (less punch than a proper Glass Cannon, and even more fragile), and at level 20, he turns into an Adamantine Chain Gun. This also works thematically, too- he aspires to be a lich for all of his career, telling the party how awesome he's going to be when he does. However, he's an evil wannabe, and being a lich is a really evil act. There's no way he could pull it off, or ever would. And then he does, and suddenly the party has to take him seriously. Anyone who's familiar with the Duskblade and Dread Necromancer classes will see what's eventually going to happen, but when it happens 7 levels later than they thought it would, it's still going to take them by surprise.

[Noctis Vigil]

I like some of these suggestions.

@ Malroth: I hadn't considered Bard at all, but making him something akin to an emo songwriter would make my players totally not expect anything bad our of him. The only problems I see with the build is that a.) it leaves him semi-competent at fighting and 2.) Crusader is a ToB class. Sorry I forgot to list banned stuff in my OP, this has been adjusted. As for how he'll survive encounters: my players are all Good alignment, and somehow this has become "don't kill unless you've absolutely no other option", which gives me lots and lots of baddies they've beat down and let live. If I make this guy look harmless enough the first couple of times they see him, I can probably milk at least 4 subplots out of him.

@ DMofDarkness: Where is some of these spells and classes you list? I know Duskblade and Abjurant Champion, and I've at least heard of Dread Necro (but don't know what book it's in). As for the rest, I've never seen the spells Channeling Avascualte or Plague of Undead, and what is Undead Meldshaping? Lastly, I love your avatar. :smallwink:

One last thing: my group gets lots of feats, one at first then another at every even level, so I have 11 feats to work with instead of the usual 7.

[God Imperror]

I would go with:

Dread necromancer (from heroes of horror) // Whatever 5 / Horned Harbinger (from faiths and pantheons) / Whatever 5

This gives you one of the biggest (it can be bigger with the feat: planar touchstone (catalogues of enlightenment (deathbound)) (it actually doesn't stack after checking the wording) pool of undead at your disposal, and animate dead as an spelllike ability (so you save on onyx). It also doesn't have feat prerequisites and the whatever 5 can be quite personalized. I would personally take binder (tome of magic) 5 (at least) and bind tenebrous, to use its rebuke attempts to feed divine feats.

Turning into a Lich at level 20 qualifies for increase in power.

[A_S]

-Dread Necromancer is in Heroes of Horror.
-The spell DMoD is suggesting is Avasculate, which is in Libris Mortis and reduces its target to 1/2 of its current HP, no save (also has a fort-save-or-lose attached). He's suggesting channeling it through the Duskblade class feature. However, as it's not a touch spell, I don't believe this works without shenanigans. Fortunately, Night's Caress (also from Libris Mortis) is a touch spell, and is similarly deadly when channeled through a full attack (15d6 HP damage, no save, and save or 1d8+2 con damage as well).
-Undead Meldshaper is a feat from Magic of Incarnum that lets undead use their Wis score instead of their Con score (which they obviously don't have) for meldshaping.
-Plague of Undeath (in both Heroes of Horror and Libris Mortis) is a level 9 spell that just animates a truckload of undead minions.

[Noctis Vigil]

One final thing about this build: I need suggestions for epic level as well. My overarching plot is intended to take my players to level 40ish, and this guy is supposed to be recurring for most of it.

[Fable Wright]

-Dread Necromancer is in Heroes of Horror.
-The spell DMoD is suggesting is Avasculate, which is in Libris Mortis and reduces its target to 1/2 of its current HP, no save (also has a fort-save-or-lose attached). He's suggesting channeling it through the Duskblade class feature. However, as it's not a touch spell, I don't believe this works without shenanigans. Fortunately, Night's Caress (also from Libris Mortis) is a touch spell, and is similarly deadly when channeled through a full attack (15d6 HP damage, no save, and save or 1d8+2 con damage as well).

Waitwaitwait, Avasculate is a ray? :smallconfused: *looks it up.* Well. That... that shoots one of my favorite builds, gives me a reason to laugh maniacally, and a reason to be flat-out terrified. Really? A ray? Damn...

(Greater) Harm is another option to consider, for the sheer damage output.

As for an epic progression of the build... I would just give him Swiftblade on one side (advancing Duskblade, which is probably behind a bit) gestalted with more Dread Necromancer (for more uses of Ennervating Touch), followed by a bit of Warblade (for boosts/counters to support his action economy). If you can keep your natural attacks (or use Girallion arms to replace your regular ones), you might consider becoming a Demilich and gestalting the LA with Swiftblade when you start out the class. Because Magic Immunity. For later levels, Cyran Avenger might be an option, for more Charisma synergy, as might Paladin of Tyranny 3/Hexblade 4 levels.

[Noctis Vigil]

OK, so I have a bunch of options for down-and-dirty fighting with him. What do you guys suggest for back-row support on him? What I mean is, if he sends his undead minions forward and slings spells from the back, what would be good to give him to fill that roll?

[Fable Wright]

OK, so I have a bunch of options for down-and-dirty fighting with him. What do you guys suggest for back-row support on him? What I mean is, if he sends his undead minions forward and slings spells from the back, what would be good to give him to fill that role?

Ray spells like Avasculate and Enervation, and Battlefield Control like Black Tentacles, Waves of Exhaustion (which do not affect his Undead minions), Horrid Wilting, Song of Discord (if there's no Mindblank up), Summon Undead V (summon Allips, start Wisdom Draining!) and maybe Magic Jar. Though, Magic Jar would probably raise his danger quotient quite a bit, as it makes him hard to kill and makes him be able to Save or Die a party member each round.

[Malroth]

The build i first posted is definately a back row support guy his whole career, and i'm pretty sure many melee enthusiasts, could tell you that a 2 level crusader Dip after spending 8 levels as a STR dumped medium BAB class will not make you a great combatant. (at least untill you magic Jar some 30 str spellstiched zombie you made) However since TOB is off the table...

Middle aged Silverbrow Human
Flaws
Innatentive -4 spot/listen
Non Combatant -2 to all attack rolls (since you thought he was too good at direct combat before)

Class. Focused specalist Necromancer1// Bardic Sage Bard 1

Note: you could get a build with a lot more low level power and early synergy by being a standard bard + Dread necromancer but since you want a late bloomer focused specalist wizard is better

Feats: Toumb Tainted soul (Healing from negative energy), Melodic Casting (can cast spells while maintaing bardic music), Extend Spell (free from wizard good for buff spells), Skill focus Perform (Oratory)

Skills: You'll need Perform, Concentration, Knowledge Religion and Knowledge Arcana. Spellcraft and Sleight of Hand will be useful for some really nice skill tricks, But as a 19 INT human in a class with 6+INT mod you can probably grab all the skills you want.

LV2 Necromancer 2 // Bard 1/Dragon Blood Sorcorer 1
Feat: Draconic Heritage (Battle Dragon)
Feat: Dragonfire Inspiration (sonic)
Extra feats are fun
Skill Trick: Conceal Spellcasting

Lv 3 Necromancer 3 // Bard 2/Sorcerer 1
Spells: Make sure to grab Command Undead on your Necro side and Inspiration Boost on your bard side

LV 4 Necromancer 4// Bard 3/ Sorcerer 1
Feat: Corpse Crafter
Stats +Int

LV 5 Necromancer 5// Bard/4 Sorcerer 1
Feat: Fell Animate.
Can technicaly create zombies from dying enemies via fell animate ray of frost but probably only has the one that replaced his familliar or ones he steals via Command undead.

LV 6 Necromancer 6 // Bard 5/Sorcerer 1
Feat: Spell Focus Necromancy
Start questing for a "badge Of Valor" and a "vest of Legends" you'll want them in a couple levels if not sooner

Lv 7 Necromancer 6/ Master Specialist 1 //Bard 6 /Sorceorer 1
Yay actual animate dead spell
Feat: Skill Focus (Spellcraft) Meh you get it for free from Master Specialist
When you meet the party at this level you're pretty gimp, you can make small numbers of undead via fell animate or animate dead and have good buffing capabilities With Haste/bardic music but your undead are pretty gimp and you yourself aren't going to outshine any ally in combat. 3d6 bonus sonic damage per strike to every living ally is nice though

Lv 8 Necromancer 6/Master Specialist 2 // Bard 7/ Sorceorer 1
Feat: Destructive Retribution
Expanded Spellbook: Ask if you can add non-wizard necromancy spells to your book using this ability, if you can, grab your favorite cause wounds spell
Stat + INT or CON
Gains self/undead healing at this level but still no synergy besides number of spell slots avalible for buff spells or animation.


Lv 9 Necromancer 6/Master specialist 3// Bard 8/sorcerer 1
Feat: Greater spell focus (necromancy) another freebie
Inspire courage/Dragon fire inspiration increases to +2 base +3 after inspiration boost and +4 after badge of valor/Vest of legends, too bad the substantial skeleton swarm aren't getting any benefit.

Lv 10 Necromancer 6/Master Specialist 4 // Bard 8/Sorcorer1/Seeker of the song 1
Feat: Requiem aka the reason you went 1/2 bard suddenly all those undead are adding 4d6 sonic damage per strike
Skill Trick: Swift concentration. Maintaining concentration AND your song AND casting a spell AND using seeker of the song abilities in the same turn can be useful.
Minor School Esoterica: Nearby Undead gain Turn Resistance equal to your master specalist lv for the same number of rounds every time you cast a necromancy spell, you've got a LOT of necromancy spell slots.

LV 11 Necromancer 6/Master Specialist 5// Bard 8 Sorcorer 1/ Seeker of the song 2/
Create Undead and Animate Dread warrior are avalible so your undead start meaning somethng.
2 songs at once, grating on the ears, wonderful for allied undead
Expanded spellbook: If you can grab Harm here your Undead supermonster will thank you.

Lv 12 Necromancer 6/Masterspecialist 6// Bard 9/sorcerer 1/ Seeker of the song 2
Feat: Song of the Heart boost Both Inspire courage and Dragonfire inspiration

More to come later

[dantiesilva]

I suggest this class to everyone but The arbiter is a good idea in my mind. It is a major buffer defbuffer and with dreadnecromancer on the other side it makes a very big badassness at high levels.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12154375#post12154375
This is the arbiter.
At level 20 you are getting all allies within 100ft. Gaining a +6 to attack damage, AC and enemies get the oppoiste of what you gain. You also gain a +5ft to movement and enemies get -5.to movement
The ability to steal your enemies enchantments and use them on yourself or your allies. Take a - in skills to give others a bonus. Enemies can not role above a 13 on a d20 and the lowest you and your allies within 40ft. can roll is a 8.

Add that with your dreadnecromancer corpse crafter feats and you are now a thing to be feared. Here is an idea, hopefully mythweaver is working by now. http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=431809 This is only an idea of the power you could control. Though if you want more badass, turn into a lich at level 20.

[Blue1005]

Still new to forums, what is a BBEG?

[TuggyNE]

Still new to forums, what is a BBEG?

Stands for Big Bad Evil Guy, the mastermind villain behind a large chunk of plotline (often an entire campaign).

[Sith_Happens]

One final thing about this build: I need suggestions for epic level as well. My overarching plot is intended to take my players to level 40ish, and this guy is supposed to be recurring for most of it.

Then that makes this a lot easier. For the first X levels he's nothing special, then he finally gets around to taking Epic Spellcasting with all of the fresh gouda that entails.