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Bakkan
2012-10-21, 09:55 PM
The Paladin

This is an attempt to create a Paladin class that accomplishes a few goals. First, I want this to be a strong Tier 3 class, holding its own with Warblades and Psychic Warriors. Second, I want this to be a class that is interesting to create and play. To be precise, I want there to be relevant decisions to make at every level-up and relevant decisions to make in every round of combat. Thirdly and finally, I wanted to make the Lay on Hands ability more powerful and interesting, since it is my favorite part of the class and, to me, its most iconic feature.

Note that this is part of a fairly broad redesign attempt that will eliminate or change many other classes and feats, so for the moment I am not too concerned what th interactions will be between this class and other extant base classes and prestige classes, or feats outside of core. That said, if you think that there is a feat out there that would work really well with this class, let me know so I can consider either including it in the redesign or incorporating its benefits into the base class.

I am planning on writing ACFs and feats specifically for this version of the paladin, and that will come later.



Alignment: Paladins are emissaries and warriors for their deity, and hence must be of the same alignment as their deity. Since every deity has need of such servants, Paladins of every alignment exist.

Hit Die: d10

Class Skills: Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Martial Lore (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis)

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x4 (minimum 4)

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier (minimum 1)

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied (Granted)|Stances Known

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Aura, detect opposition, smite 1/encounter |4|4(1)|1

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Divine grace, lay on hands|4|4(1)|1

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Lay on hands (disease, poison)|5|4(1)|1

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Smite 2/encounter, lay on hands (swift)|5|5(2)|1

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Lay on hands (ability damage)|6|5(2)|2

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Lay on hands (dazed, fatigued, shaken, sickened)|6|5(2)|2

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Smite 3/encounter, lay on hands (range)|7|5(2)|2

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Lay on hands (ability drain)|7|6(2)|2

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Lay on hands (swift range)|8|6(2)|3

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Smite 4/encounter|8|6(2)|3

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7|Lay on hands (exhausted, frightened, stunned, nauseated)|9|6(2)|3

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Lay on hands (area) |9|7(3)|3

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8|Smite 5/encounter |10|7(3)|4

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9|Lay on hands (paralyzed, panic)|10|7(3)|4

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Lay on hands (curse) |11|7(3)|4

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10|Smite 6/encounter|11|8(3)|4

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Lay on hands (death)|12|8(3)|5

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|Lay on hands (swift area)|12|8(3)|5

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|Smite 7/encounter|13|9(3)|5

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Divine Avatar|13|9(4)|5
[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the paladin.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).

Aura (Ex)
A paladin has an aura corresponding to his alignment with a strength equal to his paladin level.

Detect Opposition (Su)
As a move action, a paladin can detect the presence of opposed creatures. Paladins who are not neutral are opposed to creatures whose alignment is opposed to the paladin's on at least one axis. So for example, a lawful neutral paladin is opposed to chaotic creatures and a chaotic good paladin is opposed to lawful or evil creatures. Neutral paladins are opposed to creatures who are lawful good, chaotic good, lawful evil, or chaotic evil. When the paladin activates this ability, he knows the number and position of opposed creatures in a 60 ft cone. The effect can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.

Smite (Su)
Once per encounter, a paladin can, as a swift action, imbue his attacks with divine energy. Until the end of the turn, the paladin gains a sacred (if the paladin is neutral or good) or profane (if the paladin is evil) bonus to his attack rolls equal to his Charisma modifier on all attacks made against opposed creatures (see the description for the detect opposition ability). He also gains a bonus on damage rolls made against opposed creatures equal to his paladin level. The paladin gains additional uses of smite as his level increases, as indicated on the table. A paladin must rest for 5 minutes to regain his expended uses of smite. This 5 minutes of rest cannot be used for exercise to change or recover maneuvers (see Maneuvers Readied below).

Maneuvers
A paladin can use maneuvers from the Devoted Spirit and White Raven maneuvers. Once he knows a maneuver, he must ready it (see Maneuvers Readied, below). A maneuver is extraordinary unless otherwise noted in its description. The paladin learns additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown on the table. The paladin must meet a maneuver's prerequisite to learn it. See Table 3-1, page 39 of the Tome of Battle, to determine the highest-level maneuvers the paladin can learn.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered paladin level after that, the paladin can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of any one you already know. You must meet the prerequisites for the new maneuver you select before selecting it, but you may choose any maneuver you qualify for. The paladin can swap only a single maneuver at any given level.

Maneuvers Readied
A paladin can ready a number of his known maneuvers with five minutes of exercise. The number of maneuvers he can have ready at once is given in the table. The maneuvers remain readied until the paladin decides to change them.

At any instant, each of a paladin's readied maneuvers are either withheld, granted, or expended. The paladin is constantly looking for the openings revealed to him by his patron to give him an advantage. When the paladin enters combat (that is, when he rolls initiative), he is granted a number of his readied maneuvers, chosen randomly. The number of maneuvers granted is given in parentheses after the number of maneuvers readied on the table. All the maneuvers not granted to him are withheld. At the beginning of each of his later rounds, he is granted one additional maneuver from his set of withheld maneuvers. Whenever the paladin executes a maneuver, that maneuver is expended and becomes unavailable to him until it is granted again. If at the beginning of the paladin's turn he has no withheld maneuvers left, all his readied maneuvers become withheld again and he is granted a number of maneuvers as at the beginning of combat.

When out of combat (that is, when initiative is not being tracked and time is not being measured in rounds), the paladin can use any of his readied maneuvers at will.

A paladin can have only one copy of any given maneuver readied at a time.

Stances Known
The paladin knows a number of stances from the Devoted Spirit and White Raven schools given in the table. Whenever the paladin gains an additional stance know, he may choose any stance that he meets the prerequisites for. This stance counts as a menuver for meeting prerequisites, but the paladin may not trade out one stance for another at higher levels as he can with maneuvers.

Divine Grace (Su)
At 2nd level, the paladin gains a sacred (if the paladin is good or neutral) or profane (if the paladin is evil) bonus to his saving throws equal to his Charisma modifier. The maximum bonus granted is equal to the paladin's class level.

Lay on Hands (Su)
At 2nd level, the paladin gains the ability to heal or harm creatures by channeling divine energy through themselves.

The Path of Weal and the Path of Woe
The paladin must follow the Path of Weal or the Path of Woe. Good paladins follow the Path of Weal, and evil paladins follow the Path of Woe. Neutral paladins decide when they gain this ability to follow the path of Weal or Woe. This choice is permanent. Some neutral deities only allow their paladins to choose one path.

Attacks and Save DCs
The saving throw (if applicable) for a Lay on Hands ability is equal to 10 + half the paladin's hit dice + the paladin's Charisma modifier. To touch an opponent, the paladin must make a melee touch attack as part of the action to Lay on Hands. If the attack misses, the paladin loses all points of damage or healing that he chose to use in that attempt.

The Lay on Hands pool
The paladin activates his Lay on Hands abilities by drawing points form his Lay on Hands pool. The number of points in the paladin's Lay on Hands pool is equal to (6 + 2 x his Charisma modifier) x (his paladin class level). So for instance, a 2nd-level paladin with a Charisma score of 16 (+3 modifier) has 24 points in his Lay on Hands pool, while a 20th-level paladin with a Charisma score of 27 (+8 modifier) has 440 points in his Lay on Hands pool. The paladin cannot use a Lay on Hands ability if that ability would cost more points than the paladin has left in his Lay on Hands pool.

Lay on Hands Abilities
At 2nd level, the paladin following the Path of Weal can as a standard action channel positive energy to heal a touched living creature for a number of points of damage. The paladin chooses how much to heal with every touch, up to one third his maximum Lay on Hands pool. The paladin can also use this
ability to harm undead creatures for a like amount of damage. To do this, the paladin must succeed on a melee touch attack as described above and the undead may attempt a Will save for half damage. This ability costs a number of points from his Lay on Hands pool equal to the number of points of healing or damage done.

At 2nd level, the paladin following the Path of Woe can as a standard action channel negative energy to harm a touched living creature for a number of points of damage. The paladin must succeed on a melee touch attack and the target may make a Will save to take half damage. The paladin chooses how much damage to deal with every touch, up to one third of the total daily amount he can deal. The paladin can also use this ability to heal undead creatures for a like amount of damage. This ability costs a number of points from his Lay on Hands pool equal to the number of points of damage or healing done.

At 3rd level, the paladin gains the ability to counteract or cause disease and poisoning. The paladin following the Path of Weal can as a standard action give a touched creature an immediate saving throw against one disease or poison currently affecting him, with a DC equal to the original save DC or the
disease or poison. The creature gains a sacred bonus to his save equal to 3 + the paladin's Charisma modifier. If the save succeeds, the creature is instantly cured of his disease or poison, with no additional saving throws necessary. The paladin following the Path of Woe can infect a touched creature with a diesease or cause it to become poisoned. The disease and poison depend on the idiosycnracies of the paladin's patron. For instance, a god of decay might grant his paladins filth fever. In any case the save DCs are equal to the normal DC for the paladin's Lay on Hands ability, and any disease has no incubation time, that is, a creature diseased by a paladin's touch must save immediately or take damage. Using this ability costs 10 points from the paladin's Lay on Hands pool.

At 4th level, the paladin can use his Lay on Hands ability more quickly. Whenever the paladin activates a Lay on Hands ability on a willing touched creature, he may activate it as a swift action instead of as a standard action.

At 5th level, the paladin may heal or deal ability damage. A paladin following the Path of Weal can heal a touched creature of a number of points of damage up to his class level to any one ability score. A paladin following the Path of Woe can deal a touched creature a number of points of damage up to his class level to any one ability score. The target of this ability is allowed a Fortitude save (Str, Dex, Con) or Will save (Int, Wis, Cha) to negate the damage. Using this ability coses 5 points from the paladin's Lay on Hands pool per point of ability damage done or healed.

At 6th level, the paladin may remove or apply various conditions to his targets. A paladin following the Path of Weal can remove any one of the following conditions from a touched creature: dazed, fatigued, shaken, sickened. A paladin following the Path of Woe can impose any one of the same conditions on a touched target, with a duration of 1 round per class level. A creature affected in the same way multiple times by this same ability does not have their condition worsened, but this condition does stack with other abilities that cause similar effects. A creature is allowed a Fortitude save (fatigued, sickened) or Will save (dazed, shaken) to negate this ability. Using this ability costs 20 points from the paladin's Lay on Hands pool.

At 7th level, the paladin may use his Lay on Hands ability at range. He must take a standard action do so, but he may affect any creature he can see in line of sight and line of effect within 25 feet + 5 feet/2 paladin levels. No attack roll is needed to affect an opponent with this version of the ability. Using an ability at range costs twice as many points from the paladin's Lay on Hands pool as it would as a touch ability.

At 8th level, the paladin can cause or heal ability drain. A paldin following the Path of Weal can heal a touched creature of a number of points of ability drain up to his class level from any one ability score. A paladin following the Path of Woe can deal a touched creature a number of points of ability drain up to his class level to any one ability score. The target of this ability is allowed a Fortitude save (Str, Dex, Con) or Will save (Int, Wis, Cha) to negate the damage. Using this ability coses 10 points from the paladin's Lay on Hands pool per point of ability drain done or healed.

At 9th level, the paladin may use his Lay on Hands ability at range as a swift action. Since Lay on Hands abilities at range do not require attack rolls, the paladin may use this even against nonwilling creatures. Using an ability at range costs twice as many points from the paladin's Lay on Hands pool as it would as a touch ability.

At 11th level, the paladin may remove or apply more serious conditions to his targets. A paladin following the Path of Weal can remove any one of the following conditions from a touched creature: exhausted, frightened, stunned, nauseated. A touched creature is healed of that condition completely and does not only move to a lesser version of that condition; for instance, an exhausted creature who is cured by this ability becomes neither exhausted not fatigued, but is back to normal. A paladin following the Path of Woe can impose any one of the same conditions on a touched target, with a duration of 1 round per paladin level. A creature affected in the same way multiple times by this same ability does not have their condition worsened, but this condition does stack with other abilities that cause similar effects. A creature is allowed a Fortitude save (exhausted, nauseated) or Will save (frightened, stunned) to negate this ability. Using this ability costs 40 points from the paladin's Lay on Hands pool.

At 12th level, the paladin gains the ability to affect multiple creatures in an area around him. He must take a standard action to do so, but he may affect a number of hit dice of creatures up to four times the paladin's class level. The paladin must be able to see the creatures he wishes to affect, and he must have line of sight and line of effect to them. The paladin can affect creatures up to 25 ft + 5 ft/2 levels away from him. The paladin selects which creatures he wishes to affect, and they are targeted, starting with the creatures closest to the paladin and working outwards. As each creature is targeted, its Hit Dice are subtracted from the total number the paladin can affect. If a chosen creaure has more Hit Dice than are left, it is skipped and its Hit Dice are not subtracted from the total Hit Dice affected. All targeted creatures are then affected by the paladin's ability, making saves individually. Using an ability in an area costs three times as many points from the paladin's Lay on Hands pool as it would as a touch ability targeting a single creature.

At 14th level, the paladin may remove or apply severe conditions to his targets. A paladin following the Path of Weal can remove any one of the following conditions from a touched creature: panicked, paralyzed. A touched creature is healed of that condition completely and does not only move to a lesser version of that condition. A paladin following the Path of Woe can impose any one of the same conditions on a touched target, with a duration of 1 round/paladin level. A creature is allowed a Fortitude save (paralyzed) or Will save (panicked) to negate this ability. Using this ability costs 60 points from the paladin's Lay on Hands pool.

At 15th level, the paladin may remove or invoke a curse on a creature or object. A paladin following the Path of Weal can remove enchantments, transmutations, and curses from a single touched creature. This ability can reverse even an instantaneous effect. For each such effect, you make a class level check (1d20 + class level, maximum +20) against a DC of 11 + caster level of the effect. Success means that the creature is free of the spell, curse, or effect. For a cursed magic item, the DC is 25. A paladin following the Path of Woe can curse a touched creature. If that creature fails a Will save, it takes one of the following penalties of the paladin's choice:

One ability score is reduced by an amount equal to the paladin's class level, to a minimum of 1
A penalty to all attacks, checks, and throws equal to half the paladin's class level
The creature has a 50%+1% per paladin's class level chance of taking no actions each round

The curse is permanent and cannot be dispelled, but it can be removed with a break enchantment, limited wish, miracle, remove curse, or wish spell.

At 17th level, the paladin learns how to instantly slay a creature or turn back even death itself. A paladin following the Path of Weal can touch the body of a creature that has been dead for no more than 1 round per class level and return that creature to life. The creature being raised knows the name, alignment, and patron of the paladin raising it, can perceive the area within 60 feet of his body, and can refuse to be raised. If the creature consents to being raised, it is restored to life with one tenth its normal maximum hit points. If the raised creature was a spellcaster, it returns with half the spell points it had at the time of its death and for each memorized spell it has a 50% chance of retaining that spell. A paladin following the Path of Woe can instantly kill or destroy a touched creature if that creature fails a Will save. If the creature succeeds on the save, it takes 10 points of damage per paladin level, but this damage cannot reduce it below 1 hit point. This is a necromantic death effect. Using this ability costs 100 points from the paladin's Lay on Hands pool.

At 18th level, the paladin may use his Lay on Hands ability on creatures in an area as a swift action. Since Lay on Hands abilities in an area do not require attack rolls, the paladin may use this even against nonwilling creatures. Using an ability in an area costs three times as many points from the paladin's Lay on Hands pool as it would as a touch ability.

Divine Avatar (Su)
At 20th level, the paladin becomes one of the most powerful champions his deity has. His aura becomes much stronger, with a strength equal to a creature with Hit Dice equal to twice the paladin's level. He gains spell resistance equal to 15 + his class level and the ability to cast commune as a spell-like ability once per day at caster level 20. In addition, his smites become more powerful, gaining twice the paladin's Charisma bonus to attacks and twice the paladin's level to damage. He gains the effects of a magic circle against evil spell, but it works against those creatures that have alignments opposed to the paladin's.

toapat
2012-10-21, 11:10 PM
Problems in order:

Too much focus on healing. DnD is not WoW. Just because you can end negative effects, does not make that better then prevention.

Maneuvers: Incredibly limited, vastly overvalued. the Tier system itself is very inconsistent in presentation. Maneuvers are not T3 material. you have some flexible things like white Raven, but most of the disciplines are overvalued for their flexibility. The definition of T3 is Decent at more then just combat. Initators? Are not good outside of combat and are in fact Overvalued on the tier system. the standard Spellcasting paladins get is as good as Maneuvers, but actually able to be used outside of combat.

Flexibility: Where? there are at least 20 ACFs in officially published material by WotC and Pazio for paladin, and most of them are exceptional. hell, Paladin is a keystone to the Mountbuilds, and only the most absurd of attempts to replicate the power of Ubermount dont have a level of paladin.

to list ones i can remember:
Charging Smite
Paladin Sword of Celestia (This would become part of PF's divine bond)
Divine Spirit
Underdark Knight.

T.G. Oskar
2012-10-22, 06:55 PM
I believe the problems are bigger than just aiming for Tier 3.

IMO, the biggest problem with adding maneuvers to a Paladin instead of spells is "how to make it mechanically distinct to a Crusader"? Right now, the class features make it different, but there's nothing that makes Lay on Hands an alternate class feature for the Crusader and end up having almost EXACTLY what you're showing.

Let's go bit by bit: this Paladin lacks access to Stone Dragon, which automatically makes the Crusader superior in terms of the breadth of maneuvers it gets. Two maneuver schools usually don't help, even though Devoted Spirit and Stone Dragon tend to overlap in terms of strikes (such as Mountain Hammer and Foehammer). Stone Dragon nets you more than just Mountain Hammer, including maneuvers to hold the enemy in place and essentially negate your entire movement for a few turns, lower your physical stats (Strength and Constitution), get extra DR, and others. Tank-wise, it's a pretty useful school.

In the amount of smites, the Paladin wins...but by what margin? You just turned Smite into a maneuver...when you have a huge amount of maneuvers at your disposal. Adding 1 point of damage at 1st level when you can have a maneuver that lowers your attack bonus by 4 for 1 round seems weak; adding 10 points of damage when you can add somewhere along the lines of 6d6 or heal at a distance...you get what I say?

Lay on Hands is quite probably the one unique ability you keep, and actually improve. On the other hand, that kind of improvement on Lay on Hands seems a wee bit out of focus with what a Paladin has to offer. This kind of improvement to Lay on Hands would benefit a Cleric much more, if healing was a bit more important. I know the Paladin is the one that canonically gets Lay on Hands, but if you're aiming to do a complete rehaul, perhaps it's time to rethink whether this iconic ability should be kept, and even if it should remain in this improved form or not.

Then, there's Divine Avatar. Basically, you have a 5-level PrC's amount of abilities crammed into one level. That's way too overloaded, even as a capstone, and thus makes it somewhat disheartening. The doubling on Smites could have appeared at an earlier level to keep Smites relevant; the Magic Circle against Evil effect could have happened earlier (at least 10th level) as well.

However, my biggest qualm is "how does the Paladin compares mechanically to the Crusader?", and the answer is "nope". Thing is: take a Crusader, add the Core Paladin's Lay on Hands, replace Indomitable Zeal for Divine Grace at that specific level, and you get a better Paladin that what you offer. This is what worries me: mechanically, the only difference between one and the other is Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike vs. Lay on Hands, but otherwise both classes are essentially identical. A focus on Healing, the lower amount of accessible maneuvers (unless you wanted to count Smite as a maneuver, given how it's written) and a huge boost to defense as a capstone doesn't really make the Paladin mechanically better than the Crusader. So, it's not better than the Crusader and it's not distinct enough: to put it bluntly, it's a poor copy of the Crusader, and that's a terrible aim.

Now, I know you mention you'll do a rehaul of the system, and that leads me to think you'll replace the Crusader with the Paladin, or at least blend both and get a decent class. Yet, it seems that you've skipped on the reasons why people consider Crusaders better than Paladins, enough to consider them their replacement. Maneuvers are one thing: the Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike class abilities are another. It may seem like little, but those two abilities are excellent at the first few levels when combined with Stone Power, and at latter levels they grant a pretty nice boost to attack and damage, comparable to Knowledge Devotion, and a pretty decent buffer for damage, especially if coupled with any of the [material] Bones strikes (Stone Bones, Adamantine Bones) and the Martial Strike/Aura of Triumph stance alongside Revitalizing/Rallying Strike to recover damage from the pool. This combination of delayed damage pool, extra damage, maneuvers that can hold enemies at bay (Thicket of Blades, Stone/Crushing Vise, White Raven Hammer), lower damage received (Stone/Adamantine Bones, Immortal Fortitude) or weaken them (Iron Guard's Glare, Vanguard Strike, Bonecrusher) and ways to heal at the same turn all combine for expert tanking. This is what Crusaders excel at. Combine with abilities to heal allies (Martial Spirit/Aura of Triumph and Crusader's/Revitalizing/Rallying Strike plus Strike of Righteous Vitality) and buff (most White Raven maneuvers) serves as their secondary focus. A tertiary focus is dealing damage (most of the strikes that grant extra damage, and Smite if you wish to consider it despite how little uses it gets). The Crusader has a strong primary focus (tanking) and does other things quite well (healing in combat, buffing, tanking), so it fits the idea of Tier 3.

The Paladin, as you've worked it? It does one thing VERY well (healing, with Lay on Hands), but it falters on the others (sure, it can buff as well as the Crusader, but it really can't tank that well). In comparison, the Paladin far overcomes the Crusader at healing, but isn't as good as the latter in tanking or debuffing because of lacking a third school such as Stone Dragon, and its damage dealing options are somewhat smaller. Finally, it buffs just as well as the Crusader up until 20th level.

Let's compare to the Core Paladin now. The Core Paladin can't heal as well as yours, can't deal as much damage as yours (unless it focuses on mounted charging, in which case it can out-damage just about anything, including a raging Barbarian with full PA/Shock Trooper/Leaping Strike), and can't debuff as well, but oddly enough, its breadth of spells can do much more than the few maneuvers your Paladin gets. Shield Other and Glory of the Martyr (the latter from BoED) does a pretty phenomenal act of tanking, for example. Rhino's Rush adds to the damage from a mounted charge. Holy Sword gives you a magic weapon that deals extra holy damage AND gives you a Magic Circle effect 6 levels earlier; its Magic Circle against Evil spell is acquired 9 levels earlier than yours. While you get up to Cure Serious, the fact that you can easily use Wands of CLW with no need for UMD makes out-of-combat healing pretty decent. It gets Break Enchantment, which while somewhat weaker than that of a full spellcaster it can null a wide variety of enchantments and curses. It gets Dispel Magic, which while weak (as well) it can be used tactically. Most of these spells are Core spells (barring Glory of the Martyr and Rhino's Rush), and those in Spell Compendium further improve them, far and beyond what Devoted Spirit and White Raven can offer. At the very best, both are comparable, but when you dig a bit more, you'll start to notice the versatility offered by Paladin spells, which offsets a bit the utility of maneuvers. To put it in another way: depending on the occasion, a Paladin's spells can be superior to the Crusader's maneuvers, and this includes combat situations.

My recommendation would be to evaluate a bit closer what's your aim with the Paladin. If the idea is to blend it with the Crusader, then figure out what makes the Crusader so good, and then what you can draw from the Paladin that could improve the Crusader.

Ideas I can deliver:
Lay on Hands is pretty strong, but perhaps a bit TOO strong. Is your Paladin focused on being a superior healer and buffer? If not, consider whether Lay on Hands requires that buff. At the very best, keep the range and swift action options.
Make Smite more interesting. Remove the "you can recover the maneuver after 5 minutes" because you can only use Smites in combat. Furthermore, consider adding some rider effects. For example, what about blinding, or stunning? Finally, make Smite act as a Boost rather than a Strike, unless you intend to make them a worthwhile Strike.
Consider adding Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike, and perhaps improve it a bit. Perhaps at latter levels, you can create an "aura" that allows you to take damage from allies within a distance (10 ft., perhaps?), in order to safeguard your allies a bit and increase your Furious Counterstrike a bit faster.
What's your stance on feats? If you intend to change your feats, give an example on how you'd rework them. Otherwise, you should consider adding bonus feats.
Is it really necessary to remove Stone Dragon? In fact, have you considered not just re-adding Stone Dragon, but perhaps ALSO add Iron Heart?

You'll have to forgive me if I sound too rough, but given that Paladin IS my favorite class, I can get a bit passionate regarding the topic. The thing I want to see is a proper, worthwhile representation, not a poor copy of the Crusader intending to replace both classes.

toapat
2012-10-22, 11:04 PM
You'll have to forgive me if I sound too rough, but given that Paladin IS my favorite class, I can get a bit passionate regarding the topic. The thing I want to see is a proper, worthwhile representation, not a poor copy of the Crusader intending to replace both classes.

I thank you for your typical overly long way to explain things. it is beautiful artwork.

and its a little less Snarky then my same comments

Bakkan
2012-10-23, 06:52 PM
First of all, many thanks to you two for giving me some feedback. I can see that my initial attempt at this was a little ham-fisted. I'll try to address all the concerns you've raised.


Problems in order:

Too much focus on healing. DnD is not WoW. Just because you can end negative effects, does not make that better then prevention.



Lay on Hands is quite probably the one unique ability you keep, and actually improve. On the other hand, that kind of improvement on Lay on Hands seems a wee bit out of focus with what a Paladin has to offer. This kind of improvement to Lay on Hands would benefit a Cleric much more, if healing was a bit more important. I know the Paladin is the one that canonically gets Lay on Hands, but if you're aiming to do a complete rehaul, perhaps it's time to rethink whether this iconic ability should be kept, and even if it should remain in this improved form or not....

Lay on Hands is pretty strong, but perhaps a bit TOO strong. Is your Paladin focused on being a superior healer and buffer? If not, consider whether Lay on


I should have expounded more upon my idea behind the Paladin when I originally posted it. In fact, I do want to make the Paladin the best in-combat healer and status effect remover. I wish to make Clerics more focused on prevention (buffs, temporary hp, etc.) and the Paladin more focused on cure (heals, removal of effects, etc.). I expect there to be some crossover, but that's the main idea. That applies to the Path of Weal Paladin anyway. I must admit that I don't tend to play darker character much so I was somewhat less inspired when it came to the harmful effects. I really like the flavor of keeping the two paths, similar to how clerics channel either positive or negative energy, but will this make the good-aligned paladins significantly weaker since they are defensive rather than offensive?



At the very best, keep the range and swift action options.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean eliminate the swift range, area, and swift area options?



Maneuvers: Incredibly limited, vastly overvalued. the Tier system itself is very inconsistent in presentation. Maneuvers are not T3 material. you have some flexible things like white Raven, but most of the disciplines are overvalued for their flexibility. The definition of T3 is Decent at more then just combat. Initators? Are not good outside of combat and are in fact Overvalued on the tier system. the standard Spellcasting paladins get is as good as Maneuvers, but actually able to be used outside of combat.




IMO, the biggest problem with adding maneuvers to a Paladin instead of spells is "how to make it mechanically distinct to a Crusader"? Right now, the class features make it different, but there's nothing that makes Lay on Hands an alternate class feature for the Crusader and end up having almost EXACTLY what you're showing.

Let's go bit by bit: this Paladin lacks access to Stone Dragon, which automatically makes the Crusader superior in terms of the breadth of maneuvers it gets. Two maneuver schools usually don't help, even though Devoted Spirit and Stone Dragon tend to overlap in terms of strikes (such as Mountain Hammer and Foehammer). Stone Dragon nets you more than just Mountain Hammer, including maneuvers to hold the enemy in place and essentially negate your entire movement for a few turns, lower your physical stats (Strength and Constitution), get extra DR, and others. Tank-wise, it's a pretty useful school....

Is it really necessary to remove Stone Dragon? In fact, have you considered not just re-adding Stone Dragon, but perhaps ALSO add Iron Heart?


In fact, this is indended to be essentially a replacement for both Crusader and Paladin. You both bring up excellent points however: First, than maneuvers alone are insufficient to make this class effective in melee, and second, that the maneuvers he gets are quite weak, both in number and selection. My initial thought had been for the smites and Lay on Hands to make up for that weakness, but upon reflection neither of those, or even both together, come close to making up for that lack.

I like the idea of adding in Stone Dragon (for tankiness). I am not opposed to the idea of adding in Iron Heart, but I am concerned about the Paladin gaining access to all the strongest schools (White Raven, Devoted Spirit, and Iron Heart).

As far as the maneuvers known/readied go, should I in your opinion bump it right up to the Crusader's level? More? Less?



In the amount of smites, the Paladin wins...but by what margin? You just turned Smite into a maneuver...when you have a huge amount of maneuvers at your disposal. Adding 1 point of damage at 1st level when you can have a maneuver that lowers your attack bonus by 4 for 1 round seems weak; adding 10 points of damage when you can add somewhere along the lines of 6d6 or heal at a distance...you get what I say?
....

Make Smite more interesting. Remove the "you can recover the maneuver after 5 minutes" because you can only use Smites in combat. Furthermore, consider adding some rider effects. For example, what about blinding, or stunning? Finally, make Smite act as a Boost rather than a Strike, unless you intend to make them a worthwhile Strike.



Smite is intended to synergize with either full attacks or maneuvers since it essentially acts like a boost. I love the idea of adding riders to it, though that kind of duplicates what Lay on Hands does (at least the Path of Woe). So I have a few options if I want to include something like that.

One thing I had considered before but didn't implement was adding the ability to channel a use of Lay on Hands through a weapon attack. I could introduce an ability where with a single swift action your attacks for the round both gain the smite bonuses and deliver whatever nastiness your Lay on Hands would do. This would, however, restrict this ability to paladins following the Path of Woe.
I could add another set of debuffs to the Smite that I don't give to Lay on Hands, such as blinding, deafening, reducing land speed, an (Ex) slow effect, etc.
I could eliminate some of the Lay on Hands abilities relating to debuffs and add them to Smites




Then, there's Divine Avatar. Basically, you have a 5-level PrC's amount of abilities crammed into one level. That's way too overloaded, even as a capstone, and thus makes it somewhat disheartening. The doubling on Smites could have appeared at an earlier level to keep Smites relevant; the Magic Circle against Evil effect could have happened earlier (at least 10th level) as well.


The initial thought was to make a capstone thaty's actually worth waiting for, as most of the base classes I know in 3.5 (including the Crusader and Swordsage) have kind of *meh* abilities at level 20. However, I take your point about it being a lot to give in one level. I had no amazing ideas for a unique ability, which is what I really wanted.



Now, I know you mention you'll do a rehaul of the system, and that leads me to think you'll replace the Crusader with the Paladin, or at least blend both and get a decent class. Yet, it seems that you've skipped on the reasons why people consider Crusaders better than Paladins, enough to consider them their replacement. Maneuvers are one thing: the Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike class abilities are another....
Consider adding Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike, and perhaps improve it a bit. Perhaps at latter levels, you can create an "aura" that allows you to take damage from allies within a distance (10 ft., perhaps?), in order to safeguard your allies a bit and increase your Furious Counterstrike a bit faster.


I will seriously consider putting in Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike, because you make a good point here. One concern I had had about this was stereotyping the Paladin as a tanking class, when Paladins from different deities might fight very differently from one another.



Let's compare to the Core Paladin now. The Core Paladin can't heal as well as yours, can't deal as much damage as yours (unless it focuses on mounted charging, in which case it can out-damage just about anything, including a raging Barbarian with full PA/Shock Trooper/Leaping Strike), and can't debuff as well, but oddly enough, its breadth of spells can do much more than the few maneuvers your Paladin gets....To put it in another way: depending on the occasion, a Paladin's spells can be superior to the Crusader's maneuvers, and this includes combat situations.


I had shied away from spells initially as I would like the vanilla paladin to have a more martial or divine knight feel to it. However, the plan is to have a multitude of ACF's, one of which would be to trade out maneuvers for spellcasting.



What's your stance on feats? If you intend to change your feats, give an example on how you'd rework them. Otherwise, you should consider adding bonus feats.
[/LIST]

The revamped feats are intented to scale much more than in standard 3.5, and the fighter is supposed to be made obsolete because you no longer need a bunch of feats just to make one combat style work. I have the beginnings of an attempt at reworked feats here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234894). For an example, I here reproduce my version of weapon focus and light armor proficiency:

Weapon Focus
You know how to wield one type of weapon with devastating accuracy and impact.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon
Benefit: Choose one type of weapon, such as longsword or club. You gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls and +2 bonus on damage rolls on attacks made with that weapon. The attack bonus increases by 1 and the damage bonus increases by 2 for every 4 points of base attack bonus you possess, to a maximum of +6 attack and +12 damage at a base attack bonus of 20.
Special: You may change the weapon that this feat applies to by spending 2 hours a day for 7 consecutive days practicing with the new weapon.
Replaces: This feat replaces the weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, and greater weapon specialization feats.

Armor Proficiency (Light)
You are trained in the use of light armor, such as leather armor and chain shirts
Benefit: When you wear light armor, the armor check penalty for that armor applies only to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, Swim, and Tumble checks. In addition, when you gain this feat, choose one type of light armor, such as padded or studded leather, and gain one of the following benefits:

You treat the arcane spell failure chance of the selected armor as 10% lower than it normally is
You treat the selected armor as having a maximum Dexterity bonus 2 higher than it normally is
You treat the selected armor's armor bonus as 1 higher than it normally is





[QUOTE=T.G. Oskar;14094688]You'll have to forgive me if I sound too rough, but given that Paladin IS my favorite class, I can get a bit passionate regarding the topic. The thing I want to see is a proper, worthwhile representation, not a poor copy of the Crusader intending to replace both classes.

Not at all. The Paladin is one of my favorite concepts. However, the 3.5 paladin is too weak mechanically and the 3.5 crusader is not diviney enough. If it helps, my favorite literary version of a paladin as I imagine it is Aragorn.

Thank you both for your help. So, summarizing, I have some suggested modifications to the class, including

Increase the number of maneuvers readied/known the paladin has
Give the paladin access to Stone Dragon and/or Iron Heart
Improve Smite by making it more powerful numerically (perhaps at some point in the class progression) and/or by adding additional rider effects
Break up the benefits that Divine Avatar gives and give some of them earlier in the class progression.

Let me know if I missed anything.

toapat
2012-10-23, 07:10 PM
In fact, this is indended to be essentially a replacement for both Crusader and Paladin. You both bring up excellent points however: First, than maneuvers alone are insufficient to make this class effective in melee, and second, that the maneuvers he gets are quite weak, both in number and selection. My initial thought had been for the smites and Lay on Hands to make up for that weakness, but upon reflection neither of those, or even both together, come close to making up for that lack.

I like the idea of adding in Stone Dragon (for tankiness). I am not opposed to the idea of adding in Iron Heart, but I am concerned about the Paladin gaining access to all the strongest schools (White Raven, Devoted Spirit, and Iron Heart).

As far as the maneuvers known/readied go, should I in your opinion bump it right up to the Crusader's level? More? Less?


In order:
No, Maneuvers, even if you got Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, White Raven, and Shadow Hand, would not make you a T3 class, at that:

Iron Heart: Really only relied on for Iron Heart Surge as far as i know, which can do things like Revoke Death because of how it is worded.

Stone Dragon: Actually is better then Devouted Spirit. The most sinificant difference is that Stone Dragon has a stance that grants Heavy Fortification, which in my book is better then anything Devouted Spirit gets (which isnt alot different. Heals vs DR, a few stances). 1d2 Infinite crusader is actually done by ignoring the specific wording of Imbued healing.

White Raven: Its bard on a Stick, as far as i can tell (havent read the school, i dont personally like ToB at all)

Shadow Hand: MMO Rogue on a stick.


go back to spellcasting with inherent Battle Blessing, its more useful to the paladin in game, more flexible, and the stuff you want from Stone Dragon, Devouted Spirit, and White Raven is all in spells, barring Heavy Fortification.

go grab PF's LoH. 1d6/2 levels and 1/2 Paladin+Cha is 630hp without the (Terribly flavored) capstone, even without a healing focus that is pretty much expected of a paladinbrew, considering the WoW method really doesnt work in PnP.

it kinda seems also like you really just want a class for the Oradin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13981827) build


Asto Flavor: Devouted spirit bleeds monk, not paladin.
ACFs should trade out features that do not make up the core of a class. Spellless Paladin/Ranger in Complete Warrior are considered the worst ACFs for the classes. changing the losses to maneuvers doesnt change that (maybe ranger would benefit, but the Ranger spell list is rather less useful then paladin)

T.G. Oskar
2012-10-23, 10:58 PM
I should have expounded more upon my idea behind the Paladin when I originally posted it. In fact, I do want to make the Paladin the best in-combat healer and status effect remover. I wish to make Clerics more focused on prevention (buffs, temporary hp, etc.) and the Paladin more focused on cure (heals, removal of effects, etc.). I expect there to be some crossover, but that's the main idea. That applies to the Path of Weal Paladin anyway. I must admit that I don't tend to play darker character much so I was somewhat less inspired when it came to the harmful effects. I really like the flavor of keeping the two paths, similar to how clerics channel either positive or negative energy, but will this make the good-aligned paladins significantly weaker since they are defensive rather than offensive?

Thing is, in-combat healing is already pretty weak. Paladins are traditionally tanks, and thus they should be focused towards tanking, rather than healing. Devoted Spirit maneuvers are essentially enough.

That said, if you want to make a decent Lay on Hands, the PF version is already pretty good. You have more than one use of them, you heal up to 10d6 points per use, and you can work Mercies for all the abilities you wish to add.


I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean eliminate the swift range, area, and swift area options?

Quite the contrary. The idea is that, if for some reason you agreed to nerf Lay on Hands, then it'd be better to keep the few things that really work for the ability, such as the swift action activation and the range. The rest can be scrapped, but that makes for decent in-combat healing by itself.


In fact, this is indended to be essentially a replacement for both Crusader and Paladin. You both bring up excellent points however: First, than maneuvers alone are insufficient to make this class effective in melee, and second, that the maneuvers he gets are quite weak, both in number and selection. My initial thought had been for the smites and Lay on Hands to make up for that weakness, but upon reflection neither of those, or even both together, come close to making up for that lack.

I like the idea of adding in Stone Dragon (for tankiness). I am not opposed to the idea of adding in Iron Heart, but I am concerned about the Paladin gaining access to all the strongest schools (White Raven, Devoted Spirit, and Iron Heart).

As far as the maneuvers known/readied go, should I in your opinion bump it right up to the Crusader's level? More? Less?

Maneuvers can remain as-is, in terms of use. It's already pretty close to what you get through Crusaders, anyways.

However, a better access to maneuvers should improve the class quite a bit. I must dissent regarding Iron Heart being useful only for one thing: Iron Heart has a maneuver that grants a ranged attack (Lightning Throw), a small AoE attack (Mithral Tornado and Adamantine Hurricane), the ability to make sweeping blows (Steel Wind, and there's another which is a stance IIRC). Iron Heart Endurance works as a nice second wind ability in case you need to save your LoH and still need to deliver an attack. I wouldn't dismiss it, but you wouldn't be granting access to ALL of the best schools: you're missing on Diamond Mind, which has a plethora of awesome options, even more than Iron Heart.


Smite is intended to synergize with either full attacks or maneuvers since it essentially acts like a boost. I love the idea of adding riders to it, though that kind of duplicates what Lay on Hands does (at least the Path of Woe). So I have a few options if I want to include something like that.

One thing I had considered before but didn't implement was adding the ability to channel a use of Lay on Hands through a weapon attack. I could introduce an ability where with a single swift action your attacks for the round both gain the smite bonuses and deliver whatever nastiness your Lay on Hands would do. This would, however, restrict this ability to paladins following the Path of Woe.
I could add another set of debuffs to the Smite that I don't give to Lay on Hands, such as blinding, deafening, reducing land speed, an (Ex) slow effect, etc.
I could eliminate some of the Lay on Hands abilities relating to debuffs and add them to Smites


The first idea on the list makes some Devoted Spirit strikes a bit redundant, particularly since you can activate them as part of melee attacks.

That said, I wholeheartedly agree with the second option. You could even base it on both Paths: those following the Path of Weal could deliver stuff such as blindness and deafness (essentially, sealing options) whereas those following the Path of Woe could deliver stuff such as fear, disease and poison (weakening options).


The initial thought was to make a capstone thaty's actually worth waiting for, as most of the base classes I know in 3.5 (including the Crusader and Swordsage) have kind of *meh* abilities at level 20. However, I take your point about it being a lot to give in one level. I had no amazing ideas for a unique ability, which is what I really wanted.

Thing is, it's not because it's "meh", but more because it's loaded with stuff that should have been provided levels ago. Spell resistance at 20th level is kinda weak, and so does damage reduction, aligned attacks and others. Capstone abilities should provide trascendence (changing your type, for example) or provide a very powerful ability (for example, a 1/week Miracle ability makes for a perfect capstone out of its sheer power potential).


I will seriously consider putting in Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike, because you make a good point here. One concern I had had about this was stereotyping the Paladin as a tanking class, when Paladins from different deities might fight very differently from one another.

The stereotype already exists. It's hard to make that differ.

However, it's not THAT hard, if you define what archetypes fit the Paladin. The divine guardian is just one of the archetypes; the undead/demon hunter is another, the crusader/soldier of the faith is another (one that focus on maximum damage, particularly against evil creatures), a knight hospitaler kind of character (a warrior/healer) yet another... You need to see what abilities are iconic, and which not. Are smites iconic. Is lay on hands iconic? After that, then it's best to provide options that eventually lead to each archetype. The divine guardian would get the tanking maneuvers, and ways to redirect damage; the undead/demon hunter would get the maneuvers and smites that disable undead and fiends, the knight hospitaler would get the healing maneuvers and greater improvements to Lay on Hands, and such. Feats could provide the distinction between deities, if you desire, which makes it a bit easier for you and for users of your 'brews.


The revamped feats are intented to scale much more than in standard 3.5, and the fighter is supposed to be made obsolete because you no longer need a bunch of feats just to make one combat style work.

Hmm...duly noted.

If you're going for scaling feats, you should limit numeric increases. Otherwise, you're feeding the numbers game, one that some monsters WILL beat quite easily. Some feats should provide different abilities. For example: have you considered that Weapon Focus could provide, say, a free touch attack when using the specified weapon, or perhaps collapse the choices for Weapon Focus into weapon groups, rather than a specific weapon? That would make the feats a bit more interesting.


Not at all. The Paladin is one of my favorite concepts. However, the 3.5 paladin is too weak mechanically and the 3.5 crusader is not diviney enough. If it helps, my favorite literary version of a paladin as I imagine it is Aragorn.

I'd love to say which is my archetypal Paladin, but I think of Paladins in a mechanical aspect. I usually combine traits from D&D, Ragnarok Online, a bit from Final Fantasy, amongst others. However, I think of Cecil as a weak Paladin. Dupre from the Ultima series is pretty interesting, tho.

toapat
2012-10-23, 11:24 PM
Maneuvers can remain as-is, in terms of use. It's already pretty close to what you get through Crusaders, anyways.

However, a better access to maneuvers should improve the class quite a bit. I must dissent regarding Iron Heart being useful only for one thing: Iron Heart has a maneuver that grants a ranged attack (Lightning Throw), a small AoE attack (Mithral Tornado and Adamantine Hurricane), the ability to make sweeping blows (Steel Wind, and there's another which is a stance IIRC). Iron Heart Endurance works as a nice second wind ability in case you need to save your LoH and still need to deliver an attack. I wouldn't dismiss it, but you wouldn't be granting access to ALL of the best schools: you're missing on Diamond Mind, which has a plethora of awesome options, even more than Iron Heart.

I think you kinda started replying to me:

as i said, i havent looked through ToB in great detail, im not a fan of it though, mostly because people are like "Ooh, /crowbar" instead of asking does it actually improve the feel of the class.

for Divine warriors? the short answer is no, because the system is not beneficial to the Knight-Errant (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightErrant), who only needs so much facepounding capacity.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-10-23, 11:42 PM
I think you kinda started replying to me:

as i said, i havent looked through ToB in great detail, im not a fan of it though, mostly because people are like "Ooh, /crowbar" instead of asking does it actually improve the feel of the class.
I mean... gaining maneuvers kind of does make you into a melee badass, the way a high-level character ought to be, and it's quite fun to use, so... yeah. You might want to sit down and read it/try it sometime.


for Divine warriors? the short answer is no, because the system is not beneficial to the Knight-Errant (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightErrant), who only needs so much facepounding capacity.
I dunno. All melee types need a decent amount of facepounding ability. Perhaps especially those whose code tend to drag them/their party into what might be otherwise avoidable fights.

toapat
2012-10-24, 10:15 AM
I mean... gaining maneuvers kind of does make you into a melee badass, the way a high-level character ought to be, and it's quite fun to use, so... yeah. You might want to sit down and read it/try it sometime.


I dunno. All melee types need a decent amount of facepounding ability. Perhaps especially those whose code tend to drag them/their party into what might be otherwise avoidable fights.

yes, a knight errant needs the ability to pound face inside out consistently.

paladins get that (lots and lots of charging support), but they also get the abilities that make them 1 man jesus' apostles* groups. They can go around helping people, curing the sick. sure, they dont get a Resurrection ability,

*the group, not the depicted one in the bible. Jesus Emanuel was a carpenter and rabbi, luke a doctor.

T.G. Oskar
2012-10-25, 07:59 AM
I think you kinda started replying to me:

as i said, i havent looked through ToB in great detail, im not a fan of it though, mostly because people are like "Ooh, /crowbar" instead of asking does it actually improve the feel of the class.

for Divine warriors? the short answer is no, because the system is not beneficial to the Knight-Errant (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightErrant), who only needs so much facepounding capacity.

In part, but it was a concern that applied to both, IMO.

Not sure if "crowbar" is a better allegory than, say, English wrench, but ToB is looked favorably by many people because it's a system that aids melee considerably, and it's also part of first-party material. ToB is actually quite good, particularly if your focus is melee...

...which is great for Paladins, but not enough. I'll probably answer it better after this quote:


yes, a knight errant needs the ability to pound face inside out consistently.

paladins get that (lots and lots of charging support), but they also get the abilities that make them 1 man jesus' apostles* groups. They can go around helping people, curing the sick. sure, they dont get a Resurrection ability,

*the group, not the depicted one in the bible. Jesus Emanuel was a carpenter and rabbi, luke a doctor.

Melee goes beyond "dealing absurd amounts of damage". The typical builds using ToB tend to use strikes and boosts to improve already existing builds: Thicket of Blades is excellent for lockdown builds, Iron Guard's Glare provides a debuff that makes it favorable for people to hit the highly armored, HP-obsessed tank over the squishy Rogue or the Wizard (which can become pretty non-squishy, but takes some time). Blood in the Water, for example, works wonders for crit-fishing builds. Steel Wind, as another example, provides a small degree of width to attacks, something you could only achieve through a specific PrC (War Mind). However, it's not the "end-all-be-all" because it still requires a proper build.

As usual, the beauty of ToB is its lower optimization floor. That is, you can make various choices and still end up with a passable character. You'll rarely end up with a weak, one-trick pony character because you have other options with which you can work.

Thing is, that's true only on two situations: a) it's melee or b) you're using Desert Wind/Shadow Hand maneuvers (because the latter has abilities that can be used out of combat, such as Holocaust Cloak to levitate, Flame's Blessing for constant fire resistance/immunity or Shadow Jump for small-scale teleportation). Otherwise, you're limited to melee. You're excellent on melee, but you're no better than a Rogue on terms of skills (even with the higher skill points per level) or a Wizard in terms of out-of-combat utility (Mountain Hammer and higher level versions of it can't compare to what a single Disintegrate spell can pull off, and White Raven maneuvers work mostly on combat situations, unless you work non-combat situation with initiative rolls). The Crusader can't heal outside of combat (in comparison with the Paladin, who has troubles healing in-combat and making it worthwhile), or provide strong buffs beyond combat buffs (again, compared to the Paladin).

If you limit your melee capabilities to "charging support", you're harming the Paladin more than you're helping it. On the other hand, I can agree with you that the Paladin needs more than just maneuvers, and that a judicious development of Paladin spellcasting can help on that. However, I presume we should agree that not everybody shares the same feeling, nor the same methodology to work around it. Some people look towards using maneuvers because they focus on the melee aspect of the Paladin, which cannot be neglected as it is one of the main focuses of the class. Otherwise, you're thinking of a Cleric, which can heal, buff, do melee quite well (and sometimes exceeding that of melee characters) and still have enough spell slots and power to do blasting. To make the class mechanically distinct to a Cleric, you have to work around what the Paladin needs and how to solve them. Some people see the Crusader as a response to that. This is one way.

Ideally, a Paladin should mechanically be distinct to both the Crusader and the Cleric, perhaps blending parts of both but having its own features that provide distinction and cover the weaker parts. If the OP chose to use maneuvers, then it's best to figure what the Crusader lacks that the Cleric could provide, or abilities that are mechanically unique (or improvements from those of the existing Paladin), but suggesting that maneuvers aren't the way sometimes isn't the solution. Particularly if the OP intends to replace the Crusader as well.

Being healers (and good ones at that) isn't necessarily a solution, since you need a lot to make in-combat healing worthwhile (action economy is one method, rider buffs is another). They could do well as faces, and have some abilities that support that idea. After all, you can't solve the evils of the world on fist and bandages alone. Sometimes you need the right words (and words of morale, to boot).

toapat
2012-10-25, 08:22 AM
Not sure if "crowbar" is a better allegory than, say, English wrench, but ToB is looked favorably by many people because it's a system that aids melee considerably, and it's also part of first-party material. ToB is actually quite good, particularly if your focus is melee...

...which is great for Paladins, but not enough. I'll probably answer it better after this quote:

1: Crowbar: Standard Slang for forcing something in america
Monkeywrench: Standard Slang for Breaking something in america

2: while it is true that 1d of melee optimization doesnt help, the point was that, as we both said, a paladin is supposed to be more then just useful in combat. Charging was just used because they have so much support for it.