Versus #2

[Cranthis]

I'm going to give you guys two 3.5 classes, sometimes drastically different, sometimes very similar. I want to hear your opinions on who would win between the two, and why. The only rule is "Don't use tiers as your only means of explanation". This isn't any sort of contest, it is just a side by side comparison of classes.

Today's versus: Druid vs Cleric

Assume both are level 20 (this will not always be the case)

Use your own logic, and your own builds if you want, and explain which side you think wins.

This thread is for gathering general opinions, and is not intended to copy anything similar that may have been done already, excluding my own posts.

Edit: Should anyone care, In the last versus, Duskblade appears to have won.
Edit 2: As suggested below, I am limiting the books. Since these are both "Tier 1" or whatever, the books allowed are: Obviously core. Any of the "Complete" books.

[Boci]

This one is a lot harder to discuss, because the cleric has many spells and the druid has many forms, a decent amount of spells. As such, quantifying what each side has becomes very difficult. I remeber reading somewhere that it was something like this:

Core - Cleric wins by a thin margin
Core + monster manuals and competes (I.E. core + regulated splat) - Druid wins by a thin margin
Core + everything under the sun - Cleric wins by a comfortable margin
TO (I.E.) - Planar shepard vs. dweomsomething-or-other - Cleric wins by a confortable margin

But it was a long time ago.

Also, if you are going to reguarly make such threads, you might want to keep it all in one. Maybe ask to make sure.

[LanSlyde]

Clerics are kinda my thing. But as boci said it really comes down to what books are available. There are a rare number of things in D&D more powerful than a Planar Shepard even disregarding time ratio cheese. Just pick a plane that has outsiders with wish or polymorph any object. The Elemental Plane of Fire, the Glades of Arboria?

That said, When it comes to clashing titans. I don't like betting. Each class has multiple "I win" buttons. So I suppose its really all about who goes first. :elan:

[Arcanist]

You should give us book limitations, otherwise the Cleric will show up as a Twice Betrayer of Mystra and crush the Druid under a mountain of cheese :smallannoyed:

[Cranthis]

You should give us book limitations, otherwise the Cleric will show up as a Twice Betrayer of Mystra and crush the Druid under a mountain of cheese
I suppose on classes like these, yes, I should limit the books.

[eggs]

The Cleric spell list has easier access to other spell lists and open-ended magical effects than the the Druid spell list through Substitute Domain, Miracle, Gate, Planar Ally, etc. than the Druid, and easy access to free metamagic.

As PCs, which one contributes better to the party depends on how many broken spell effects the Cleric is willing to dredge up. The Druid is notorious for spewing out other characters, but the Cleric is just as capable of minion-generation, and is equally able to walk around with a horde of skeletons and demons.

In PVP, as most vaguely-balanced PVPs, the biggest determinant is which character's initial spell effects resolve first. Since the Cleric's meanderings give it easier access to Contingency, Foresight and Moment of Prescience than the Druid, that probably means the Cleric.

EDIT: Until level 5, the Cleric mook thing isn't true, and alternate spell access is less of a thing.

[Arcanist]

I suppose on classes like these, yes, I should limit the books.

I'd also recommend that you make us make the builds with each comment adding something to it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It doesn't matter who wins... the Prime Material Plane loses. There will be almost nothing left by the time these two get done.

[Cranthis]

I'd also recommend that you make us make the builds with each comment adding something to it.
That would bring a whole new level of complication for this. I probably won't do this when I say that both are 20, but when I do level 5's (which will probably be the norm for base classes) I might.

[Arcanist]

That would bring a whole new level of complication for this. I probably won't do this when I say that both are 20, but when I do level 5's (which will probably be the norm for base classes) I might.

I recommend just making it as an E6 character. 6 levels is PLENTLY to work with and (in some peoples opinions) is when the game is truly the most balanced.

[Cranthis]

I recommend just making it as an E6 character. 6 levels is PLENTLY to work with and (in some peoples opinions) is when the game is truly the most balanced.
Then that is what I will do. But for this one, I felt it more appropriate for a full 20.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Cleric uses Moment of Prescience to win initiative. Cleric casts Gate to get a Paragon Titan or a Paragon Hellfire Wyrm. The called creature serves for 40 rounds and then returns from whence it came. Its first action is to activate its caster level 40 Word of Chaos or Dictum, respectively. The Druid is automatically killed, no saving throw permitted. You can use Moment of Prescience to make a Kn: Local check before the match to learn whether your opponent's alignment is Chaotic, Lawful, or neither.

[Arcanist]

Then that is what I will do. But for this one, I felt it more appropriate for a full 20.

When you go full 20 you have varying factors. HP means nothing, AC means nothing, Initiative means nothing.

Also add half WBL for 6th level characters (3,000gp), disallow custom items, disallow custom spells, allow MiC and Core magical items.

[Cranthis]

Now you're moving back into the too complicated. But I do know exactly what I'm going to do. But for now, everyone can continue on in this Versus.

[Boci]

When you go full 20 you have varying factors. HP means nothing, AC means nothing, Initiative means nothing.

Don't you mean everything?

[Arcanist]

Don't you mean everything?

Celerity and a Belt of Battle make it rather moot.

Silly me, just use Greater Celerity to gain a full rounds worth of actions.

[Kane0]

Hmm. It's a hard one with all the weird tricks each can pull off, but I'd say if that were kept to a respectable level Cleric would edge out over the druid if he picks the right domains and spells, otherwise the druid has a secondary character ready to act and thus a slightly better chance of getting his spellcasting into play even if his initiative fails him.

It would be a one or possibly two round combat though.

[eggs]

Silly me, just use Greater Celerity to gain a full rounds worth of actions.

A couple hoops have to be jumped through for that to work, on account of Immediate Actions being forbidden for flat-footed characters (per rules compendium, p7). There are a couple ways around that like Contingency+foreknowledge of the trigger circumstances or the Sense Danger psionic power, but even with immediate spells and abilities, initiative is typically very relevant.

[Cranthis]

Ah yes, this is good debate. Anyone can add in their opinions. The more thoughts the better!

[LTwerewolf]

I'm one of the few that would put their lot in with the druid. Having the animal companion I think gives enough of an advantage where the druid can come out on top assuming the animal companion is built to be able to harass the cleric.

[Draz74]

Cleric uses Moment of Prescience to win initiative. Cleric casts Gate to get a Paragon Titan or a Paragon Hellfire Wyrm. The called creature serves for 40 rounds and then returns from whence it came. Its first action is to activate its caster level 40 Word of Chaos or Dictum, respectively. The Druid is automatically killed, no saving throw permitted. You can use Moment of Prescience to make a Kn: Local check before the match to learn whether your opponent's alignment is Chaotic, Lawful, or neither.

This is a drastic oversimplification of the duel, with several holes in it. The Cleric may well have a greater than 50% chance of beating the Druid, but the outcome will certainly not be so pre-determinable if both players are optimizing.

If Gate cheese is on the table, then Shapechange cheese is too. With two L9 spell slots or one slot and a Greater Rod of Extend Spell, the Druid can easily be affected by Shapechange for 7 hours/day (with an Orange Ioun Stone, duh), which makes it quite reasonable to assume it as a pre-buff.

Shapechanging into a Dire Tortoise beats Moment of Prescience for the purposes of winning initiative. Dire Tortoise isn't in Core + Completes, but technically, neither is the Paragon template that you use in your example -- and where the heck is the Hellfire Wyrm from?

Besides, I was under the impression that Gate couldn't automatically call templated creatures anyway. Generally, templated creatures are considered by the rules to be "unique" rather than typical representatives of their race, and Gate specifically says that unique creatures may refuse to be called by a Gate and cannot be controlled by its caster. So there is no guarantee that a Paragon Titan or Paragon Hellfire Wyrm will listen to the Cleric.

Alignment makes things particularly sticky. Unlike most Wizards, Clerics have to be careful about the alignments of spells they cast vs. the alignment of their deity, and Gating a [Chaos] or [Law] creature is a chaotic or lawful act. Plus, the Hellfire Wyrm sounds like it's probably [Evil] as well. So the Gate flexibility you describe is questionable -- unless, I guess, the Cleric is willing to Fall in order to beat the Druid.

I also question the legitimacy of your pre-battle use of Moment of Prescience to learn the alignment of the Druid. The OP gave no indication of the combatants knowing they were going to duel before they roll initiative, so I would think such an action would require one of the Cleric's turns in-combat. Besides, Knowledge (local) says nothing about being able to detect alignments no matter how high you roll on it ... and certainly, high-op duels like Test of Spite have generally assumed that making a Knowledge check to learn about a foe reveals only general strengths/weaknesses of a species, not personal secrets about an individual foe.

Of course Shapechange has many applications besides winning initiative as a Dire Tortoise. A particularly paranoid Druid may use it to keep a constant array of buffs (available as SLAs in various forms) protecting himself, which may even include Spell Immunity against broken spells such as Dictum or Word of Chaos. Or more likely, Contingencies against such spells; even if no creature has Contingency as an SLA, this would not be an unworthy use of the Zodar's Wish SLA every 20 days or so. And if the Druid actually gets a turn in combat, there are thousands more possibilities available with Shapechange. Don't count him out. And this is all assuming that Shapechange is not interpreted to grant full Sorcerer spellcasting via various forms, as some of the RAW-devotees claim.

EDIT: I actually wonder if the Divine Spell Power feat might be the Cleric's single greatest advantage in this duel, since the Druid, without PrCs, has no access to Turn Undead ...

[Arcanist]

*snip*

NEAT! so you've proved me right, in the fact that level 20 spell duels effectively end in tragedy for the entire multiverse (and potentially this thread).

EVERYONE BRACE FOR IMPACT! THE RAW WARS ARE COMING IN! AND HARD! :smalleek:

[dextercorvia]

Cleric uses Moment of Prescience to win initiative. Cleric casts Gate to get a Paragon Titan or a Paragon Hellfire Wyrm. The called creature serves for 40 rounds and then returns from whence it came. Its first action is to activate its caster level 40 Word of Chaos or Dictum, respectively. The Druid is automatically killed, no saving throw permitted. You can use Moment of Prescience to make a Kn: Local check before the match to learn whether your opponent's alignment is Chaotic, Lawful, or neither.

Moment of Prescience does not apply to Initiative checks. MoP only applies to opposed ability checks, and opposed ability checks have to have a success or failure.

@Draz: Paragon is on the SRD, which is Core enough for many.

[Draz74]

@Draz: Paragon is on the SRD, which is Core enough for many.

I know. That's why I lampshaded my own nitpicking with the word "technically." :smallamused:

[HunterOfJello]

Shapechange (and all of its further shenanigans) is also available to a Cleric who has the Animal Domain.

The Cleric's domain choices may have quite a strong impact on the duel.

[Golden Ladybug]

I abstain on account of being too close to call. Comes down to initiative, I suppose.


It doesn't matter who wins... the Prime Material Plane loses. There will be almost nothing left by the time these two get done.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f7/Avpmovie.jpg

:smallamused:

[Draz74]

Shapechange (and all of its further shenanigans) is also available to a Cleric who has the Animal Domain.

The Cleric's domain choices may have quite a strong impact on the duel.

Good points. I vaguely remembered Shapechange being available through a Domain, but I didn't think it was Core. Whoops. But yeah, if this debate is going to have anything concrete about it at all, the Cleric's Domain choice should probably be solidified first.

[eggs]

Substitute Domain means that if the cleric worships a pantheon, actually picking domains misses the point by a ways. (Even without the CChampion spontaneous domains spell feat, the Cleric could Persist + Extend Foresight, Shapechange, Miracled Bite of the Werebear or whatever else)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Clerics can also get access to Anyspell and Greater Anyspell, and through domains, can get access to a LOT of spells a Druid simply can't reach.

Druid vs Cleric in melee is going to get messy, because Druid can Shapechange or Wildshape into darn near anything it wants to, but Clerics get DMM: Persist Divine Power/Righteous Might and overall better buffing, more so with the right domains.

However, Cleric doesn't need any Gate shennanigans to Holy Word/Dictum. It works like this:

Cleric casts Quickened Detect Good. If true, then follow up with Dictum (since one side MUST be neutral, and it is good, then it must be NG). Otherwise, follow up with Holy Word. Either way, Cleric can cast this on their own. Use Divine Spellpower to boost CL to at least 30 (10 turn attempts isn't too hard to come by). Insta-gib.

This, of course, assumes the Cleric goes first. There's a couple of ways to go about doing this:

I'm going to assume Druid is always in Dire Tortoise form, simply because it is a Wildshape option, and a sufficiently paranoid option for it. Druid can be in this form 24/7. So, how do you beat this? Easy.

Miracle to use Contingency, then Anyspell for Celerity. Use Celerity to cast Time Stop (from Trickery or Celerity domain, take your pick).

You now have 1-4 turns (after stun) before your opponent can move. But you can't target him directly yet, but Detect Good is an area effect with duration that lets you know which version you want. You could do the Gate thang, if you want to, but I wouldn't.

Redo your Contingency Celerity thing set to go off when your Time Stop wears off.

Boom. Holy Word/Dictum goes off. Druid never had a chance.

[Arcanist]

Substitute Domain means that if the cleric worships a pantheon, actually picking domains misses the point by a ways. (Even without the CChampion spontaneous domains spell feat, the Cleric could Persist + Extend Foresight, Shapechange, Miracled Bite of the Werebear or whatever else)

I recommend worshiping the Faerunian Pantheon (Suicidal and dangerous, but perfectly acceptable) since it allows access to all the Domains and lets you worship Ao for no domains and no spells :smallbiggrin:

[Cranthis]

Today's Versus was excellent! I expect another good set of opinions and debates for tomorrow's. Which I have allready set up.

[Arcanist]

Today's Versus was excellent! I expect another good set of opinions and debates for tomorrow's. Which I have allready set up.

:roach: : Remember to use limits next time

[Cranthis]

: Remember to use limits next time

Haha yes, next time I do one as drastic as this, I will.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Moment of Prescience does not apply to Initiative checks. MoP only applies to opposed ability checks, and opposed ability checks have to have a success or failure.

Initiative checks are Dex checks per the Rules Compendium, and Moment of Prescience can be applied to Dex checks like all other ability checks.


This is a drastic oversimplification of the duel, with several holes in it. The Cleric may well have a greater than 50% chance of beating the Druid, but the outcome will certainly not be so pre-determinable if both players are optimizing.

If Gate cheese is on the table, then Shapechange cheese is too. With two L9 spell slots or one slot and a Greater Rod of Extend Spell, the Druid can easily be affected by Shapechange for 7 hours/day (with an Orange Ioun Stone, duh), which makes it quite reasonable to assume it as a pre-buff.

Shapechanging into a Dire Tortoise beats Moment of Prescience for the purposes of winning initiative. Dire Tortoise isn't in Core + Completes, but technically, neither is the Paragon template that you use in your example -- and where the heck is the Hellfire Wyrm from?

Besides, I was under the impression that Gate couldn't automatically call templated creatures anyway. Generally, templated creatures are considered by the rules to be "unique" rather than typical representatives of their race, and Gate specifically says that unique creatures may refuse to be called by a Gate and cannot be controlled by its caster. So there is no guarantee that a Paragon Titan or Paragon Hellfire Wyrm will listen to the Cleric.

Alignment makes things particularly sticky. Unlike most Wizards, Clerics have to be careful about the alignments of spells they cast vs. the alignment of their deity, and Gating a [Chaos] or [Law] creature is a chaotic or lawful act. Plus, the Hellfire Wyrm sounds like it's probably [Evil] as well. So the Gate flexibility you describe is questionable -- unless, I guess, the Cleric is willing to Fall in order to beat the Druid.

I also question the legitimacy of your pre-battle use of Moment of Prescience to learn the alignment of the Druid. The OP gave no indication of the combatants knowing they were going to duel before they roll initiative, so I would think such an action would require one of the Cleric's turns in-combat. Besides, Knowledge (local) says nothing about being able to detect alignments no matter how high you roll on it ... and certainly, high-op duels like Test of Spite have generally assumed that making a Knowledge check to learn about a foe reveals only general strengths/weaknesses of a species, not personal secrets about an individual foe.

Of course Shapechange has many applications besides winning initiative as a Dire Tortoise. A particularly paranoid Druid may use it to keep a constant array of buffs (available as SLAs in various forms) protecting himself, which may even include Spell Immunity against broken spells such as Dictum or Word of Chaos. Or more likely, Contingencies against such spells; even if no creature has Contingency as an SLA, this would not be an unworthy use of the Zodar's Wish SLA every 20 days or so. And if the Druid actually gets a turn in combat, there are thousands more possibilities available with Shapechange. Don't count him out. And this is all assuming that Shapechange is not interpreted to grant full Sorcerer spellcasting via various forms, as some of the RAW-devotees claim.

EDIT: I actually wonder if the Divine Spell Power feat might be the Cleric's single greatest advantage in this duel, since the Druid, without PrCs, has no access to Turn Undead ...

(DMM) Persistent Foresight + Celerity automatically beats Dire Tortoise.

Unique creatures for purposes of Gate are those for which only one could possibly exist (the demon princes, lords of hell, celestial paragons, etc. for example). It could also include creatures with the Archtypical Form trait, such as certain creatures found in FR. There could be multiple paragon versions of a given race, which means they're not unique and can be called via Gate. A specific individual is not the same as a unique being, as there could exist an exact statistical copy of that specific individual.

A Hellfire Wyrm is in MM2. I'm aware that when calling a creature with an alignment subtype via Gate, the spell itself has that same subtype. Titans have the [chaotic] subtype, but Hellfire Wyrms have no alignment subtypes at all, so a cleric of any alignment could call one with Gate. As long as the cleric is chaotic aligned, it will work just fine.

Even if the Cleric isn't aware of the Druid's alignment ahead of time, he can cast Time Stop and use Gate twice to get one of each creature. One is called near the Druid, the other is called out of range of that one's Word spell. The one near the druid is first ordered to use his word spell and move away, the other is ordered to move near the druid and use his.

Clerics also get access to Shapechange via domains, anything the Druid can do, the Cleric can also do. The opposite though isn't true, a Druid is not able to emulate everything that a Cleric can do. It's just a question of who has the best tools, and the answer to that is the Cleric.

[dextercorvia]

Initiative checks are Dex checks per the Rules Compendium, and Moment of Prescience can be applied to Dex checks like all other ability checks.


Never said it wasn't a Dex check. I said it wasn't an opposed Dex check.


This spell grants you an insight bonus equal to your caster level (maximum +25) on any single attack roll, opposed ability or skill check, or saving throw.

[Kelb_Panthera]

This one's an utter coin-toss. I might give the druid just the slimmest of edges if he can arrange to take the form of an outsider with cleric casting on the same or at least a similar level to the cleric.