Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

[WarKitty]

What are the minimum requirements you'd need for the Tippyverse phenomenon to come into effect? It seems to be some combination of number and level of spellcasters - a bunch of level 1 spellcasters aren't going to trigger it, obviously, but a handful of level 20's will.

Personally, I run a world where casters are fairly common, but even big cities tend to max out at level 5 or 6 characters. Higher-level stuff typically wants to keep to itself. This seems to work for the most part.

[Coidzor]

Most major cities having ties to an 11th level wizard and anyone with create food and water as a spell or SLA, or an artificer to supply scrolls of the spell/an item to provide a source for it, I think can start up most of it. The mind rape and teleportation circles require a 17th level wizard or the ability to bind something to provide those services.

At least, from what I recall, it's a surprisingly low level that can start off most of it.

[HunterOfJello]

Polymorph is a 4th level spell and Teleport is a 5th level spell. Those two spells alone would massively change entire societies towards becoming closer to Tippyverses.

Is there a definitive definition of what a Tippyverse is anywhere?

[Arcanist]

I have a campaign that my players are just starting that uses some Tippyverse mechanics :smallbiggrin:

You need Teleportation circles for faster trade and travel, Create food and Water + Prestidigitation traps, Spell trap training facilities that use modify memory to make the CR for the trap effectively the same each time while giving you XP

All in all it is fairly easy to create a Tippyverse. Sustaining it and keeping the players that inhabit it in check is another thing... Personally, I just use the same idea that the Forgotten Realms use ("There is always a bigger fish").

[WarKitty]

Polymorph is a 4th level spell and Teleport is a 5th level spell. Those two spells alone would massively change entire societies towards becoming closer to Tippyverses.

Is there a definitive definition of what a Tippyverse is anywhere?

Probably not anything definitive. It's more an exercise in how magic affects society and how much.

It seems like there's two major breaking points. One is the widespread availability of 4th and 5th level spells (a handful of casters with teleport won't change much, but a few in each city will). Another seems to be when you have a small number of level 15+ casters that want to be involved.

[dascarletm]

What are the minimum requirements you'd need for the Tippyverse phenomenon to come into effect? It seems to be some combination of number and level of spellcasters - a bunch of level 1 spellcasters aren't going to trigger it, obviously, but a handful of level 20's will.

Personally, I run a world where casters are fairly common, but even big cities tend to max out at level 5 or 6 characters. Higher-level stuff typically wants to keep to itself. This seems to work for the most part.

You also need modern philosophy and ways of thinking of things.

An incompetent upper-class unable to get powerful spell-casters to work for them as well.

[Ubercaledor]

Polymorph is a 4th level spell and Teleport is a 5th level spell. Those two spells alone would massively change entire societies towards becoming closer to Tippyverses.

Is there a definitive definition of what a Tippyverse is anywhere?

GIYF

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007

[toapat]

Is there a definitive definition of what a Tippyverse is anywhere?

of course, and who else would have defined it? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007)

[The Random NPC]

The Definitive Guide to the TIppyverse! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007)
Also, all that is needed is routine use of teleporting, with teleport circles being the most permanent.

EDIT:Ninja'd

[ThiagoMartell]

You also need modern philosophy and ways of thinking of things.

An incompetent upper-class unable to get powerful spell-casters to work for them as well.

Yes, the bolded part is the most important.

[WarKitty]

You also need modern philosophy and ways of thinking of things.

An incompetent upper-class unable to get powerful spell-casters to work for them as well.

Could you clarify? It seems the problem with tippyverse arises just as much if the upper class can get powerful spell-casters to work for them. After all, get your spellcaster to buff your army and teleport it.

[dascarletm]

Could you clarify? It seems the problem with tippyverse arises just as much if the upper class can get powerful spell-casters to work for them. After all, get your spellcaster to buff your army and teleport it.

well those are all modern tactics. (modern para-trooper esque). I can go on with other Tippyverse things.

The counter-argument is that if these things exist and are similar to modern technologies, then modern tactics would also develop. That, however, is debatable. Magic (in many campaign settings) is only usable by some, understood by few, and usually not widespread.

Another thing is that to keep the status quo the upper-class needs to keep the lower class, well, low.

[Aegis013]

You also need modern philosophy and ways of thinking of things.

An incompetent upper-class unable to get powerful spell-casters to work for them as well.

Or you need the upper-class to be the powerful spell-casters.

[Malroth]

Yes but any upper class member who can't roll a DC 15+ will save at least 75% of the time isn't going to stay upper class for long.

[WarKitty]

well those are all modern tactics. (modern para-trooper esque). I can go on with other Tippyverse things.

The counter-argument is that if these things exist and are similar to modern technologies, then modern tactics would also develop. That, however, is debatable. Magic (in many campaign settings) is only usable by some, understood by few, and usually not widespread.

Another thing is that to keep the status quo the upper-class needs to keep the lower class, well, low.

Personally, I think with the intellect that high-level casters have in many settings, it would likely develop. It's fairly easy to get a score over 30.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Here's Emperor Tippy's thread explaining tippyverse.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007

Short answer without teleportation circle it isn't tippyverse. Free Create food and water and other magical services can improve the lives of the common folk but it's teleportation circle that really gets the ball rolling. It basically makes all other forms of transport obsolete and makes wizards fabulously wealthy. Military applications of teleportation circle require cities to become dense enough that protecting them from teleporting armies is feasable. This requires the create food and water traps because farmlands are too vast to be protected. That's a common misconception about tippyverse create food and water traps are a necessary product of tippyverse not the cause.

Shorter answer: Magitech conveniences don't cause tippyverse, their just nice and possibly profitable.

[Arcanist]

well those are all modern tactics. (modern para-trooper esque). I can go on with other Tippyverse things.

The counter-argument is that if these things exist and are similar to modern technologies, then modern tactics would also develop. That, however, is debatable. Magic (in many campaign settings) is only usable by some, understood by few, and usually not widespread.

During the "Excursion Into Extinction" to prevent the enemies from retreating the Netherese effectively surrounded the entire battlefield with gates that teleported the fleeing enemies into a death camp. The Orcs, honestly never stood a chance. Large scale Napoleonic battles would have effectively be acts of genecide in and of itself, the likes of which the battle of Stalingrad would look like a walk through teddy bear junction so please don't try and weaponize magic... :smalleek:

When you make a gun, someone will make a bulletproof vest, and then someone will make armor piecing bullets and so on and so forth. In a magical sense it would be Magic Missile < Shield < Fireball < Fire Immunity and so on and so forth until we all kill ourselves... :smallfrown:


Another thing is that to keep the status quo the upper-class needs to keep the lower class, well, low.

I agree, leave the lower class (everyone middle class and under) at Cantrips and even then leave them to strictly core. If a middle class citizen shows potential for higher levels of magic, allow him/her to study greater aptitudes of magic.

Seriously, the Netherese really got the whole Tippyverse thing going real easy :smallamused:

[Ashtagon]

One thing I don't get about the TV.

Okay, you can stop your enemy from teleporting into your city. But what's to stop him teleporting a few dozen (or hundred) feet outside, stripping down your magical defences from there, then following up with a larger force teleported in once the magic anti-tp defences are down?

[Malroth]

The fact that your golems, troops and casters are already there in position, the point isn't to prevent them from transporting into your city, its to make it pointless to do so by having enough force already in place, hence the small densely populated areas.

[WarKitty]

One thing I don't get about the TV.

Okay, you can stop your enemy from teleporting into your city. But what's to stop him teleporting a few dozen (or hundred) feet outside, stripping down your magical defences from there, then following up with a larger force teleported in once the magic anti-tp defences are down?

My impression is it's pretty hard to strip defenses, especially since a city with basic needs met could devote a large amount of resources to defense.

[Ashtagon]

The fact that your golems, troops and casters are already there in position, the point isn't to prevent them from transporting into your city, its to make it pointless to do so by having enough force already in place, hence the small densely populated areas.

Massed troops are excellent targets for area-effect spells. And any area small enough to be economically-covered by anti-tp defences is small enough to be economically covered by standard area-effect offensive spells.

[TuggyNE]

One thing I don't get about the TV.

Okay, you can stop your enemy from teleporting into your city. But what's to stop him teleporting a few dozen (or hundred) feet outside, stripping down your magical defences from there, then following up with a larger force teleported in once the magic anti-tp defences are down?

It's assumed that that and wish-teleportation are the only two ways to attack such a city, so secondary layers of defense (both passive to delay and active to defeat the invaders) are introduced to deal with those specifically.

Edit:

Massed troops are excellent targets fr area-effect spells.

Densely-populated, not densely-manned. The rapid-response troops need a small perimeter to defend efficiently; however, it can be assumed that once on the scene they use standard high-op tactics to avoid easy defeats by casters.

[Ashtagon]

It's assumed that that and wish-teleportation are the only two ways to attack such a city, so secondary layers of defense (both passive to delay and active to defeat the invaders) are introduced to deal with those specifically.

I had though the TV only assumed teleport circle and food traps were present, not that wish level magic was also freely available.

[Ashtagon]

Densely-populated, not densely-manned. The rapid-response troops need a small perimeter to defend efficiently; however, it can be assumed that once on the scene they use standard high-op tactics to avoid easy defeats by casters.

Doesn't such a defence assume the attacker is not using such tactics?

[Arcanist]

I had though the TV only assumed teleport circle and food traps were present, not that wish level magic was also freely available.

The TV assumes that the world is using practical applications for magic. It would be very practical (imo) to have floating statues that orbit the cities that create a network of Greater Anticipated Teleports while creating magnificent and beautiful scenery for it's inhabitants. In these areas of protection are constant patrolling Alchemic Golems (Golems with a Death Throe and all the benefits of being a Golem, including Magic Immunity). The cities buildings are required by law to have a Hardening spell casted upon them upon completion and have a solution applied to it that renders it immune to Acid effects making them hard to destroy by would be invaders and making them immune to the effects of the Alchemic Golem's rupture ability.

Personally, I don't like the use of Wish level magic in the TV :smallsigh:

[Reluctance]

One thing I don't get about the TV.

Okay, you can stop your enemy from teleporting into your city. But what's to stop him teleporting a few dozen (or hundred) feet outside, stripping down your magical defences from there, then following up with a larger force teleported in once the magic anti-tp defences are down?

Like other people said, the assumption that each city has roughly comparable armies. All your troops (who are easily on hand because it's their home) can rush their incoming force. The only way they can generate any real threat involves sending most of their troops over, which leaves them open to attacks from other cities. Even assuming a successful campaign, they'll take heavy losses which will make them easy pickings for someone else.

That, and the simple fact that two significant geopolical players will likely look at the stick of mutually assured destruction, the carrot of trade with their neighbors, and decide that war simply makes no economic sense. Not that terrorist attacks and proxy wars wouldn't happen. Just that by the time you can afford an army capable of making a successful assault, you're unlikely to want to risk it all on launching a campaign.

-------

Back to the beginning of the thread, while the TV mostly grew out of teleportation circles, the basic idea of "how would easy access to spell X change the world?" can be applied to much of the PHB. I remember when I got my hands on my first PHB (I won't give away my age by saying just what edition it was), one of the first things my thirteen year old self was flip through the spells and think how cool it would be to have most of them in real life.

Unleash your inner thirteen year old. That should give you an idea how a world that developed with magic would be different from a mundane faux-medieval with magic added afterwards.

[TuggyNE]

I had though the TV only assumed teleport circle and food traps were present, not that wish level magic was also freely available.

Baseline TV doesn't require e.g. resetting wish traps, no. However, it does get to the point where wish is one of the few ways to get past the defenses; whether it's readily available is of course another matter.


Doesn't such a defence assume the attacker is not using such tactics?

Suppose we're using forbiddance as our spell of choice (ignoring for the moment the various flaws it has). It's practical (if tedious) to stack different instances next to each other to cover an entire city plus a margin of say 1000', to ensure even long-range spells need some time after teleporting in before they can be used. Suppose further that this is a low-op city, without e.g. magic-resistant building codes, permanent wards against various blasting spells, or anything like that: just golems and casters manning the defenses.

An invasion force, teleporting in just outside the forbiddance zone, then has to either move somewhat to get to useful targets, or else waste metamagic on enlarging spell range, or some such thing. Meanwhile, the defenders, stationed a short ways inside the boundary, detect them and move out to engage, at which point it's basically just a straight-up fight. Naturally, you have to account for flight, which means it's more of a dome than a circle, but still not out of the question.

An obvious improvement is to get some kind of anticipate teleport barrier up surrounding the forbiddance field, in order to provide a better buffer and make detection a bit more reliable, as well as giving more time to deploy. All kinds of further refinements are possible to reduce the reliance on huge buffer zones, improve golem performance and deployment speed, and reduce maintenance costs. But you don't need all that to figure out the general defense strategy.

[WarKitty]

Ok, so...other than the whole teleport circle mess, what are the requirements for "magic completely rewrites the rules of society"? Keeping tippyverse just as based on the one spell seems sort of...boring.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ok, so...other than the whole teleport circle mess, what are the requirements for "magic completely rewrites the rules of society"? Keeping tippyverse just as based on the one spell seems sort of...boring.

That "teleport circle mess" really is the core of the idea.

It effectively eliminates travel time between major points and the economic and political ramifications of that are what pulls the whole thing together.

Everything else after that is just applying magitech.

[WarKitty]

That "teleport circle mess" really is the core of the idea.

It effectively eliminates travel time between major points and the economic and political ramifications of that are what pulls the whole thing together.

Everything else after that is just applying magitech.


Well yeah, but I'm not terribly interested in the specific idea (I had no clue it referred to something so specific or I'd have worded the first post differently). I'm interested in where magic starts really messing with the structure of society.

Basically, I'm interested in what level you get the "mages take over and totally revamp everything" hitting.

[rockdeworld]

Probably the shortest answer is that the Rules As Written logically imply the Tippyverse, as Tippy himself stated in his definitive guide.

Basic optimization leads to the Tippyverse.
"Whoa, hey, I can cast a teleportation circle. A lot of people can use it. And I can make it permanent too! I should charge people money! Where could I get away with that?"
"Whoa, hey, this trap is powered by magic. I wonder what other spells could be made to activate the same way." *looks through spell list* "Haha! Create Food and Water. As if that... would... work..."

After that, it's kinda like China: people move to the cities because you can lead a much better life there. People outside the cities tend not to have a good education. The result is basically the Tippyverse.

[toapat]

Probably the shortest answer is that the Rules As Written logically imply the Tippyverse, as Tippy himself stated in his definitive guide.

Basic optimization leads to the Tippyverse.
"Whoa, hey, I can cast a teleportation circle. A lot of people can use it. And I can make it permanent too! I should charge people money! Where could I get away with that?"
"Whoa, hey, this trap is powered by magic. I wonder what other spells could be made to activate the same way." *looks through spell list* "Haha! Create Food and Water. As if that... would... work..."

After that, it's kinda like China: people move to the cities because you can lead a much better life there. People outside the cities tend not to have a good education. The result is basically the Tippyverse.

this of course ignores the fact that where as Heroes' Feast is nice food, Create Food and Water is damp cardboard, in flavor and texture.

Feeding a city with the spell is going to get you riots in a few weeks, even if it is free.

[Bakkan]

this of course ignores the fact that where as Heroes' Feast is nice food, Create Food and Water is damp cardboard, in flavor and texture.

Feeding a city with the spell is going to get you riots in a few weeks, even if it is free.

Not when you have Prestidigitation traps to flavor it however you want. Steak and potatos and chocolate mousse for dessert every meal!

[hamishspence]

You're still stuck with the texture.

[WarKitty]

Probably the shortest answer is that the Rules As Written logically imply the Tippyverse, as Tippy himself stated in his definitive guide.

Basic optimization leads to the Tippyverse.
"Whoa, hey, I can cast a teleportation circle. A lot of people can use it. And I can make it permanent too! I should charge people money! Where could I get away with that?"
"Whoa, hey, this trap is powered by magic. I wonder what other spells could be made to activate the same way." *looks through spell list* "Haha! Create Food and Water. As if that... would... work..."

After that, it's kinda like China: people move to the cities because you can lead a much better life there. People outside the cities tend not to have a good education. The result is basically the Tippyverse.

Hence why I asked what level/density of mages it would take to do that. If you have a scenario like I mentioned in the first post, there's maybe only one mage in the entire world who can cast a permanent teleportation circle. Most places don't even have someone who can cast create food and water.

[Kazyan]

Use Create Water for over-the-top hydroponics, and give the plants a once-over from the good ol' Prestidigitation cleanup squad in leu of pesticides. Purify Food and Water to improve the yield further. Use Light spell-clocks for street lamps and Amanuensis spell-clocks for a printing press, and you've got a semi-functional anacronism-tastic city.

It probably gets much more interesting if you don't limit yourself to cantrips.

[Bakkan]

In that case I would say it depends on a few things.

First, how willing is that caster to make an effort to set up a teleportation network? Even if it's only one caster, setting up a network of 10 cities will turn those cities into the most popular destinations for merchants, which will increase the presitge and income of the city, which will draw more people there, and you get at least a mini-Tippyverse. Incidentally, that caster will also have wealth on par with some great wyrms after it's set up and he's gathered royalties for a few years.

Second, even if that caster is unable or unwilling to do this, do magical traps work in your setting? Magical traps are notoriously cheap and easy to create, and all it would take is some traps of basic spells like create food and water and cure minor wounds to create, at least locally, a post-scarcity economy. Once this happens, people will flock to the city where they give out free food and medical care, and you get the same result as before, but with each city being more self-sufficient as there is no easy transportation between them.

In short, if magical traps work as per RAW or if there's even one economically ambition wizard capable of casting teleportation circle, something like the Tippyverse is a logical result.

[Reluctance]

Well yeah, but I'm not terribly interested in the specific idea (I had no clue it referred to something so specific or I'd have worded the first post differently). I'm interested in where magic starts really messing with the structure of society.

Basically, I'm interested in what level you get the "mages take over and totally revamp everything" hitting.

It's not so much "mages take over" as it is "magic overturns comfortable assumptions about how the world works". Just one example is how flying creatures/items make your traditional open-air castle much less defensible than it'd be against ground-bound humans. The existence of Charm Person and similar magics would likewise require contingencies for all the ways a spellcaster could mess with a person and their perceptions.

Still, while there are some low-level gems (Continual Flame, Create Water, and Cantrip all come to mind as spells that could significantly change basic assumptions), spells usually start getting into society-altering effects at around 4th or 5th level.

Also bear in mind that while Tippy's actual tippyverse (as opposed to generic high-op caster campaigns) is a really cool setting, magitech futures are not the only outcome a D&D world can face. Maybe mages have developed a guild to keep magic rare, either to line their own pockets or to avoid the magical arms races that could happen if everyone could get cool swag. Maybe all your players agree that high fantasy is worth not looking too closely at the worldbuilding assumptions. So the answer is anywhere from any levels of casters (if low-level casters are common enough to make up a majority of the population) to never (if high-level casters do get to have their fun, but prefer to do it on planes other than the prime).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Regardless of its poor flavor and texture, even one create food and water trap in a city will dramatically change that city's economy. Even if the owner of the device charges for meals, he can charge a tiny fraction of what it normally costs to eat for a day, and consequently the trap's presence frees up significant sums of money for other purposes. If he allows the device to be freely used by anyone who wants to use it, he'll be freeing up a rather large chunk of change, since while it's unlikely that people would completely give up on regular food, many people of low-to-no income will use it for the majority of their meals. Adding the prestidigitation trap would likely have a significant number of people give up on normal food altogether. There would remain a market for "normal" food, but the prices would soar. This is avaliable from either level one or level 3 (I can't remember if magical traps require craft wondrous item or not.)

The next stage would be probably another trap, this one producing wall of stone. This provides the city with unlimited building material allowing it to expand indefinitely for practically no cost. It can be supported by either making the trap itself intelligent and giving it ranks in know (architecture and engineering) or by an expert with that skill and UMD carrying an eternal wand of fabricate. The trap comes online at level 9, making it intelligent comes online at 15. In any case, portability is paramount.

Next up is permanency applied to wall of fire. When paired with a large source of incoming water, either being brought in by aquaduct or produced by yet more magic, you get unlimited energy in the form of steam driven devices. This becomes available at level 12.

These are just the first few off the top of my head, I'm sure there's more.

[Coidzor]

Ok, so...other than the whole teleport circle mess, what are the requirements for "magic completely rewrites the rules of society"? Keeping tippyverse just as based on the one spell seems sort of...boring.

The time to imagine how society would evolve with casters finding these spells and then do a setting writeup, really.

It's all in the setting at that point. Sure, you can keep the assumptions of the default and established settings or you can take a page from the example of the Tippyverse and Eberron and examine what effects the magic you do have bouncing around would have, especially if you have some idea of the timeline of magical development in that world.


Use Create Water for over-the-top hydroponics, and give the plants a once-over from the good ol' Prestidigitation cleanup squad in leu of pesticides. Purify Food and Water to improve the yield further. Use Light spell-clocks for street lamps and Amanuensis spell-clocks for a printing press, and you've got a semi-functional anacronism-tastic city.

It probably gets much more interesting if you don't limit yourself to cantrips.

Like Plant Growth, which further increases the efficiency of any hydroponics/3D farms by a cool third. Or Lesser Planar Binding which lets you get a lantern archon and have it likely give you a reduced rate for increasing the safety and orderliness of a city by using its free continual flame SLA to provide public lighting with a bit more efficiency/economy than oodles of light spell clocks.

[WarKitty]

I want a world where magic has a serious effect, but without having the "lol u suck peon" if you're not a full caster. So where there are still ordinary fighters in the town guard, diplomacy is still an important factor in politics, and so forth.

I think create food and water is a level 4 spell? So it wouldn't be available at level 1.

[Coidzor]

I want a world where magic has a serious effect, but without having the "lol u suck peon" if you're not a full caster. So where there are still ordinary fighters in the town guard, diplomacy is still an important factor in politics, and so forth.

I think create food and water is a level 4 spell? So it wouldn't be available at level 1.

That simply doesn't exist for player characters after a certain point and depends upon you and your players more than the assumptions of the setting. And there's no point in it for NPCs, given that they're already shafted with such wonderful classes as commoner and warrior. :smalltongue:

Though if you've already run into it with yourself and your players, then there's no real risk in including that as part of the assumptions of the setting, since they've received the memo. :smalltongue: If you haven't, well, depends on what you're having them do and what level they're at. A fighter without PrCing into something more useful is always going to be terribly outmoded increasingly after level 10 though, simply due to the flaws of the class.

As for diplomacy, that's always going to be important, because anything else gets too close to mutually assured destruction or that state is simply absorbed by the other state until you reach an equilibrium where MAD can exist. Defenses get developed and life goes on with the great game merely having more tools at its disposal.

[Reluctance]

Tippyverse - and by extension, all highly revamped magitech societies - are a very different thing from the caster/noncaster power split. The latter is baked into 3.5 D&D, but it's not hard to think of a society where magic accounts for many modern conveniences, while the ability of magic to affect living creatures is severely reduced.

Unfortunately for the latter, the only ways to stop magic in D&D involve other magic. (Or houserules that give certain mundane objects effective magic-stopping properties, which comes out to much the same thing.)

You have an even better reason to avoid having casters be at the top of the social pyramid. It makes them very visible targets, and ruling the masses takes time away from studying ultimate arcane power. So while there's nothing you can really do about class balance, you're not forced to have despotic casters either.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I want a world where magic has a serious effect, but without having the "lol u suck peon" if you're not a full caster. So where there are still ordinary fighters in the town guard, diplomacy is still an important factor in politics, and so forth.

I think create food and water is a level 4 spell? So it wouldn't be available at level 1.

Upon review you're almost right. Create food and water is a 3rd level cleric spell. I got it mixed up with create water. So the food&water trap is available from level 5.

None of what I brought up before has any bearing on combat at all except perhaps in the form of fortification and/or vehicles.

Also, add to the list Wall of iron trap. It functions just like wall of stone as I described above, but for the creation of metallic objects via fabricate. This makes tools and machine components essentially free. Comes online at level 11.

[Lord_Gareth]

I want a world where magic has a serious effect, but without having the "lol u suck peon" if you're not a full caster. So where there are still ordinary fighters in the town guard, diplomacy is still an important factor in politics, and so forth.

I think create food and water is a level 4 spell? So it wouldn't be available at level 1.

Side note: you should really choose a class with access to Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive to be a town guard. Fighters are TERRIBLE guards.

[toapat]

Also, add to the list Wall of iron trap. It functions just like wall of stone as I described above, but for the creation of metallic objects via fabricate. This makes tools and machine components essentially free. Comes online at level 11.

actually, just combine the Wall of Fire, Wall of Stone, Wall of Iron, and Wall of Sand traps together in a Wise and Intelligent golem. it can then build skyscrapers

[Spuddles]

The rules are definitely there for a magitech society- Kelb illustrates some great uses.

However, that won't necessarily make it a Tippyverse. You just get bigger numbers- more people, bigger population density, neater weapons. You still have cities being built in places with resources that traps cannot make- like the material components you need to make such traps- and cities on trade routes. Without easy teleport, you have a world that needs to civilize its surroundings because extracted resources need to travel to population and production centers.

[toapat]

The rules are definitely there for a magitech society- Kelb illustrates some great uses.

However, that won't necessarily make it a Tippyverse. You just get bigger numbers- more people, bigger population density, neater weapons. You still have cities being built in places with resources that traps cannot make- like the material components you need to make such traps- and cities on trade routes. Without easy teleport, you have a world that needs to civilize its surroundings because extracted resources need to travel to population and production centers.

quite wrong.

Tippyverse is done using nothing with exotic material components, just a plane adapting to having Instant Travel. a simple Spell Component Pouch is all that is needed.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The rules are definitely there for a magitech society- Kelb illustrates some great uses.

However, that won't necessarily make it a Tippyverse. You just get bigger numbers- more people, bigger population density, neater weapons. You still have cities being built in places with resources that traps cannot make- like the material components you need to make such traps- and cities on trade routes. Without easy teleport, you have a world that needs to civilize its surroundings because extracted resources need to travel to population and production centers.

Exotic components are the hardest to come by, but only just.

Two options:

The ultimate in magical creation: Wish. It's not easy to come by and it's somethin' nasty expensive, but it's an option.

Inter-planar trade: screw the berks on the material. Get in good with some genies, or start sending caravans to union. You're producing more than enough gold since you've ripped the economy wide open already.

Besides, once somebody's actually powerful enough to cast teleportation circle the rest that's already in place means you're now officially in tippyverse.

[Spuddles]

quite wrong.

Tippyverse is done using nothing with exotic material components, just a plane adapting to having Instant Travel. a simple Spell Component Pouch is all that is needed.

Teleport Circle requires a material component.
Making a magic trap require materials.

A handful of wizards with a once per day use of teleport won't have the effect of scale that teleportation circle will. I suppose a sorcerer polymorphed into something very big carrying a great deal of bags of holding and magically shrunk items could move goods around at a similar efficiency.


You're producing more than enough gold since you've ripped the economy wide open already.

From what? A Wish trap? Otherwise you're making iron or bland food that goes away in a little bit or turning cows into salt. You still have to find someone who wants that sort of stuff. Which means trade, transport of goods and materials, etc., if you really want to try and make an economy out of producing mundane equipment that you can't actually use to make more traps with.

[toapat]

Teleport Circle requires a material component.
Making a magic trap require materials.

A handful of wizards with a once per day use of teleport won't have the effect of scale that teleportation circle will. I suppose a sorcerer polymorphed into something very big carrying a great deal of bags of holding and magically shrunk items could move goods around at a similar efficiency.

except none of that involves exotic Material components that cant be pulled out of a spell component pouch, anything upto 1000g of material

[WarKitty]

Side note: you should really choose a class with access to Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive to be a town guard. Fighters are TERRIBLE guards.

I sort of figured they wouldn't be the entirety of the town guard. What police force worth it's salt would have everyone with the exact same skills? You stick fighters on places like the main gates where their job is to ensure people stop and put up with searches.

In general: I think I've been assuming to date that most people have never even heard of spells above 4th or 5th level. Spells like wish exist only in dusty tomes that no one can understand, or in half-forgotten legends of bardic lore.

Speaking of which...the bard class doesn't get nearly enough love for mid-magic settings. I think I'll start using it more for aristocrats.

[Spuddles]

except none of that involves exotic Material components that cant be pulled out of a spell component pouch, anything upto 1000g of material

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Regardless, the price in materials that it takes to make a trap come from somewhere. As a PC, it is abstracted as "materials worth gold pieces". Those materials have to be found from somewhere. There aren't any spells that can make them, therefore there are no traps that will make them. Which means you actually have to physically grow, harvest, mine, or hunt them.

Just the 1000 gp amber that you need for a teleportation circle doesn't magically come out of a spell components pouch. You actually have to go out and find it. Maybe you should look up the rules on material components? One thing the Tippyverse is a product of is near-absolute devotion to RAW, so it is important that we're all familiar with it in such a discussion.

[toapat]

*snip*

im going to politely assume you have never looked at the Item Creation rules or the spell component pouch

[Spuddles]

im going to politely assume you have never looked at the Item Creation rules or the spell component pouch

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

[toapat]

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Take the Spell Component pouch, turn it upside down, stick your hand underneith it, and expect diamond dust: It cascades out because grains of diamond Dust have no material value and the Pouch magically creates the materials. You then use fabricate on the resultant pile of dust, to get a regular diamond. only if you are Anal like the off joke in the strip where V is buying Diamond Dust does this matter as far as the game is concerned.

Every single material can be gained in this way.

[The Random NPC]

From what? A Wish trap? Otherwise you're making iron or bland food that goes away in a little bit or turning cows into salt.

Wall of Iron doesn't go away, neither does the water. The food doesn't so much as go away, as it rots really fast.


except none of that involves exotic Material components that cant be pulled out of a spell component pouch, anything upto 1000g of material

Spell component pouches contain all material components and focuses that don't have a cost.

[toapat]

Spell component pouches contain all material components and focuses that don't have a cost.

the problem here is when it comes to non-solid matrials, you can grab single grains out of the bag, an infinite number of times in a round.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why don't you read my document and look at what can be done by a bunch of T1&2 casters of 6th level and under? The answer is quite a bit...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aG4P3dU6WP3pq8mW9l1qztFeNfqQHyI22oJe09i8KWw/edit?pli=1

[Spuddles]

Take the Spell Component pouch, turn it upside down, stick your hand underneith it, and expect diamond dust: It cascades out because grains of diamond Dust have no material value and the Pouch magically creates the materials. You then use fabricate on the resultant pile of dust, to get a regular diamond. only if you are Anal like the off joke in the strip where V is buying Diamond Dust does this matter as far as the game is concerned.

Every single material can be gained in this way.

Read the fabricate description. Getting a bunch of - value diamond dust just gives you a - value diamond.

Gratz on the rock.


Wall of Iron doesn't go away, neither does the water. The food doesn't so much as go away, as it rots really fast.

That was poor parsing on my part; regardless, those are things are of irrelevant value. You're just making stuff for mundanes that no one of any real import (ie, rival casters) cares about. Their value quickly approaches zero, as no one wants to trade for them because they can make their own. Those that do want it don't produce very much of anything. If they do produce a lot of something valuable (spell components, materials for crafting), they're probably going to be within a rival's hegemony. Which means trading amber for onyx or whatever.

Traps of make mundane item is good for solving the day to day stuff, but the expansion and growth of your society runs on things you cannot make traps out of.

Which means there are pieces of territory you are interested in. Which means you need trade routes. And if teleport is on the table, it means Tippyverse.

[The Random NPC]

the problem here is when it comes to non-solid matrials, you can grab single grains out of the bag, an infinite number of times in a round.

I would say that is stretching it. I would argue that it doesn't have those materials until you have a spell that calls for them. Admittedly that just moves the problem, but it's unlikely that there will be a spell that calls for a handful of worthless diamond dust.

Edit:
That was poor parsing on my part; regardless, those are things are of irrelevant value. You're just making stuff for mundanes that no one of any real import (ie, rival casters) cares about. Their value quickly approaches zero, as no one wants to trade for them because they can make their own. Those that do want it don't produce very much of anything. If they do produce a lot of something valuable (spell components, materials for crafting), they're probably going to be within a rival's hegemony. Which means trading amber for onyx or whatever.

Traps of make mundane item is good for solving the day to day stuff, but the expansion and growth of your society runs on things you cannot make traps out of.

Which means there are pieces of territory you are interested in. Which means you need trade routes. And if teleport is on the table, it means Tippyverse.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say, would you kindly rephrase that?

[Man on Fire]

Well, from what I gathered everybody in Tippyverse needs to be level 20 tier 1 class munchkined out to the possible maximum, so here is that.

[toapat]

Read the fabricate description. Getting a bunch of - value diamond dust just gives you a - value diamond.

Gratz on the rock.

except that what should be a pile of 20kg diamond dust has no RAW value until divided in half, or quartered, for the respective Resurrection spells, you then do that and fabricate each pile into a diamond to sell

most materials do not have a Volume/Weight to Value ratio. the few that i know of are the metals, woods, and crystals used in armor making

[WarKitty]

There's no way to make spell component pouches make sense in a way that meets all their listed characteristics. Most of us just take it for granted that you can't use them to make infinite money. Easiest way is probably just to assume that the materials they create only last for a few rounds.

[Spuddles]

Well, from what I gathered everybody in Tippyverse needs to be level 20 tier 1 munchkined out to the possible maximum, so here is that.

they also need to be selfish and concerned only about their city without giving a damn about people living in the wilds. Every single one of them.

No, not really.

All it requires is one caster to look up from the ways of his ancestors, and once where he had prepared lightning bolts and meteor storms, prepare teleports and shapechanges.

There's an event horizon, and that's where wizards stop being dumbasses and actually use their spells for awesomeness instead of inefficiently making smoking craters.

[Spuddles]

except that what should be a pile of 20kg diamond dust has no RAW value until divided in half, or quartered, for the respective Resurrection spells, you then do that and fabricate each pile into a diamond to sell

most materials do not have a Volume/Weight to Value ratio. the few that i know of are the metals, woods, and crystals used in armor making

A spell components pouch is assumed to be full of stuff with out a value. An infinite number of - is still -. Making a smaller pile out of your infinite - still leaves you with a pile of -. You cannot pull anything out of the bag with a listed value.

[toapat]

There's no way to make spell component pouches make sense in a way that meets all their listed characteristics. Most of us just take it for granted that you can't use them to make infinite money. Easiest way is probably just to assume that the materials they create only last for a few rounds.

probably the best explanation for how they work ever.

also, the Reason Tippyverse does not happen:

Wizards have low Wisdom

Wisdom is the "Common sense Attribute"

as a result, wizards dont have a clue as to what they should do with their abilities

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well, from what I gathered everybody in Tippyverse needs to be level 20 tier 1 class munchkined out to the possible maximum, so here is that.
Not at all. The tippyverse starts when some 17th level caster realizes that a permanent teleportation circle placed in each of two cities each targeting other city effectively makes those two cities one place. How he comes to this realization is up in the air. A background as a caravaneer's kid, an economically minded buddy, whatever.

probably the best explanation for how they work ever.

also, the Reason Tippyverse does not happen:

Wizards have low Wisdom

Wisdom is the "Common sense Attribute"

as a result, wizards dont have a clue as to what they should do with their abilities

Bunk. The tippyverse doesn't happen for one reason and one reason only. Not everyone wants to play there.

Sooner or later a caster capable of producing a teleportation circle will be A) uninterested in conquering the multiverse, B) tired of the inconvenience of having shipped goods he wants taking days/weeks/months to get there.

Logically it should've happened ages ago in most published settings with their thousands of years of history in the rough equivalent of the middle ages.

The same thing that prevents the tippyverse is what prevents your ridiculous use of spell-component pouches from working; DM fiat.

Edit: weeeelllllll there are technically a few other hurdles, but they're all in-world, not mechanical.

[WarKitty]

probably the best explanation for how they work ever.

also, the Reason Tippyverse does not happen:

Wizards have low Wisdom

Wisdom is the "Common sense Attribute"

as a result, wizards dont have a clue as to what they should do with their abilities

Unfortunately, I'd bet you can do most of it with clerics.

Someone in the original thread even mentioned fun with tree stride.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That was poor parsing on my part; regardless, those are things are of irrelevant value. You're just making stuff for mundanes that no one of any real import (ie, rival casters) cares about. Their value quickly approaches zero, as no one wants to trade for them because they can make their own. Those that do want it don't produce very much of anything. If they do produce a lot of something valuable (spell components, materials for crafting), they're probably going to be within a rival's hegemony. Which means trading amber for onyx or whatever.

Traps of make mundane item is good for solving the day to day stuff, but the expansion and growth of your society runs on things you cannot make traps out of.

Which means there are pieces of territory you are interested in. Which means you need trade routes. And if teleport is on the table, it means Tippyverse.

Meant to address this too.

Your economy is blown wide open by those other applications of magitech before the teleportation circle comes online. All of those other things get going before 7th level spells are available to the mastermind caster(s).

This makes the city where it all started ridiculously wealthy before it actually crosses the line and becomes tippyverse. Since its citizenry is pretty much completely taken care of, all of the city's economic factors go entirely into building up more wealth.

Fortunately, genies and mercanes are both very much interested in gold. That's what gets you started in the planar market. Eventually you work your way up from working in base metals and start trading more exotic stuff. Souls, exceedingly rare gems minded in the elemental plane of earth, seafood and pearls from the elemental plane of water, optional spell-components from the outerplanes, etc. This makes your city even wealthier.

Then you lay down the TP circle and start uniting the world into one megalopolis.

[TuggyNE]

also, the Reason Tippyverse does not happen:

Wizards have low Wisdom

Wisdom is the "Common sense Attribute"

as a result, wizards dont have a clue as to what they should do with their abilities

That's an inadequate explanation, because the bolded statement cannot be assumed to be true. Some wizards, certainly, have low Wisdom, especially those made by point buy (:smalltongue:), but that isn't necessarily true of NPCs with rolled or array stats. Furthermore, just how much Wisdom do you really need to figure some of this out? 20? 24? 33? I'll give you a hint: people on the Internet have figured this out; that sets a pretty good upper bound on how much they'd need. (Personally, I'd assume a +6 enhancement item would be enough to give them the minor insights they'd need, even without aging bonuses, inherent bonuses, or starting any higher than an 8.)

[Coidzor]

I sort of figured they wouldn't be the entirety of the town guard. What police force worth it's salt would have everyone with the exact same skills? You stick fighters on places like the main gates where their job is to ensure people stop and put up with searches.

Zhentarim (Thug) Fighters, certainly.

Bog-standard Fighters, eh...


Side note: you should really choose a class with access to Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive to be a town guard. Fighters are TERRIBLE guards.

Ranger is a much better representation of the training that a competent force of gendarmes would receive at the basic level, and any gendarmerie is going to have a common basis of their training due to their nature and need to be able to come together to work as a military unit in defense of the city when it comes to that.


In general: I think I've been assuming to date that most people have never even heard of spells above 4th or 5th level. Spells like wish exist only in dusty tomes that no one can understand, or in half-forgotten legends of bardic lore.

From what I understand of the rules, lower level wizards could certainly understand and decipher the spell wish from those dusty tomes, they just would be metaphysically unable to prepare and cast it.

As for bards and nobility, whenever I want to play a dandy or gentleman of the world, I pick Bard unless he's part of a line given to soldiery or magecraft.


probably the best explanation for how they work ever.

also, the Reason Tippyverse does not happen:

Wizards have low Wisdom

Wisdom is the "Common sense Attribute"

as a result, wizards dont have a clue as to what they should do with their abilities

Even if your argument wasn't predicated on a false assumption, all it takes is one caster, who isn't even necessarily a wizard, and then even wizards with poor wisdom will see the lucrative nature of it, as there's enough wizards who end up adventuring for us to have a game that there's a basis for wizardly greed if one even wanted to attempt to argue otherwise.

[toapat]

Even if your argument wasn't predicated on a false assumption, all it takes is one caster, who isn't even necessarily a wizard, and then even wizards with poor wisdom will see the lucrative nature of it, as there's enough wizards who end up adventuring for us to have a game that there's a basis for wizardly greed if one even wanted to attempt to argue otherwise.

granted, not all wizards are going to be Reed Richards.

the most accurate reason a Tippyverse doesnt become standard is this: Wizards who take the role of generals will more often rely on their own spellcasting and a dense packed meatshield in setting then said dense packed meatshield to get the work done, or they become necromantic lords who prefer to sit on their bony asses and rob tombs. They believe themselves to be the most useful member of the army (and rightly so) to the point where they dont really believe that anyone else is relyable. Standard Class Flaws of "Hubris" and "Minor Insanity" dont help

I could actually see a Conjuration Sorcerer doing better at achieving the Tippy-horizon because they are forced to figure out how, with spells that only shunt people around, they can make most effective use of thier powers and millitary training

Edit:


That's an inadequate explanation, because the bolded statement cannot be assumed to be true. Some wizards, certainly, have low Wisdom, especially those made by point buy (:smalltongue:), but that isn't necessarily true of NPCs with rolled or array stats. Furthermore, just how much Wisdom do you really need to figure some of this out? 20? 24? 33? I'll give you a hint: people on the Internet have figured this out; that sets a pretty good upper bound on how much they'd need. (Personally, I'd assume a +6 enhancement item would be enough to give them the minor insights they'd need, even without aging bonuses, inherent bonuses, or starting any higher than an 8.)


yes, the assumption was on pointbuy.

Here is the thing about the Tippy-Event Horizon: This is one of those Technological event horizons, which people cant see, and cant see past. IRL the comparison would be Sea Knights and Orbital Drop Pods for troop and supply transport. They dont have those in DnD-tech, so we dont see this Event horizon as an impassible barrier like the people caught in the war of the portals do. This is a problem for us to understand, because we are used to thinking of logistics in a 3-4 dimensional perspective. the people we are talking about are not

[Kelb_Panthera]

granted, not all wizards are going to be Reed Richards.

the most accurate reason a Tippyverse doesnt become standard is this: Wizards who take the role of generals will more often rely on their own spellcasting and a dense packed meatshield in setting then said dense packed meatshield to get the work done, or they become necromantic lords who prefer to sit on their bony asses and rob tombs. They believe themselves to be the most useful member of the army (and rightly so) to the point where they dont really believe that anyone else is relyable. Standard Class Flaws of "Hubris" and "Minor Insanity" dont help

I could actually see a Conjuration Sorcerer doing better at achieving the Tippy-horizon because they are forced to figure out how, with spells that only shunt people around, they can make most effective use of thier powers and millitary training

Edit:




yes, the assumption was on pointbuy.

Here is the thing about the Tippy-Event Horizon: This is one of those Technological event horizons, which people cant see, and cant see past. IRL the comparison would be Sea Knights and Orbital Drop Pods for troop and supply transport. They dont have those in DnD-tech, so we dont see this Event horizon as an impassible barrier like the people caught in the war of the portals do. This is a problem for us to understand, because we are used to thinking of logistics in a 3-4 dimensional perspective. the people we are talking about are not

More bad assumptions.

The typical mild neuroses and paranoia are tropes but that doesn't mean they're psychological prerequisites to becoming a wizard. There's no reason to believe that a high-level wizard who never leaves town might not get fed up with the aggravatingly long shipping times of his favorite dried fruit, and just that once hop over to the town where they come from to set up a TP circle to aid them in getting there faster, since he doesn't like to travel. Then they ask him to setup another one on this end to facilitate the trip home, and boom! accidental tippyverse kick-starter.

As for thinking in three and four dimensions; Know (the planes) says hi.

[TuggyNE]

Here is the thing about the Tippy-Event Horizon: This is one of those Technological event horizons, which people cant see, and cant see past. IRL the comparison would be Sea Knights and Orbital Drop Pods for troop and supply transport. They dont have those in DnD-tech, so we dont see this Event horizon as an impassible barrier like the people caught in the war of the portals do. This is a problem for us to understand, because we are used to thinking of logistics in a 3-4 dimensional perspective. the people we are talking about are not

That's dubious, because the ability that governs tactical ingenuity is not Wisdom, or Charisma, or Dex or Con or Str: it's Int.

Certainly I wouldn't expect the very first wizard who thought of teleportation circle trade routes to immediately think "I need to set up a 3D forbiddance perimeter around my base, man it with dozens of high-end golems and mid-level casters, and make massive use of divinations and spell traps to improve life and security for all the people who will be living there once trade gets moving." However, I do think that, over a comparatively short time, those various refinements and adjustments would be made; each step is fairly small and logical, and driven by fairly compelling factors.

Also, I really have to question why high-level wizards would be so thoroughly incapable of thinking in three dimensions. After all, they've been able to fly with good maneuverability since level 5, and they have hundreds if not thousands of years of scholarly research into spells and their uses. Just how complicated is it to imagine a bubble rather than a circle, a shell rather than a wheel?

TL/DR: The Tippyverse does not develop instantaneously, it develops progressively over decades or even centuries as a result of competition and war.

[Arcanist]

As for thinking in three and four dimensions; Know (the planes) says hi.

Honestly, I've been thinking that lately and been wondering "Perhaps the other planes of existence are simply different dimensional levels where other creatures exist on a higher spectrum of living... Maybe this 'New age' stuff is actually on to something...?"

It is actually entertaining to think of Demiplanes as just planes that have undergone the Lucifer Experiment and cut themselves off from the Unity that is the Multiverse to create its own reality so adding a 'New Age' style of thinking to a campaign certainly does make a lot of sense if you really think about it... But I'm attributing that to how "flexable" the 3.5 system of gameplay is. Take a Paladin of Tyranny and call him a Lawyer and your good :smalltongue:

[toapat]

TL/DR: The Tippyverse does not develop instantaneously, it develops progressively over decades or even centuries as a result of competition and war.

Instantly? No, the actual progression of the tippyverse is more likely backwards. The Military applications would be discovered before the economic in terms of TC.

Asto Kelb: here are a number of flaws to your argument:

Wizards fly around because it is fun to them, provides a bit of combat advantage, and lets them bypass terrain (also, screw you walking). They dont typically stick the rest of the party in a bag of holding to dump them inside the castle, they cast mass teleport. This does not lend itself to the idea of Dumping an army through an established rift.

In fact, the planes where 3 Dimensional travel is mandatory, such as the plane of air and Limbo, dont lend themselves to logical thought.

As i Said, there is a Technological Singularity/Event Horizon which We, as people Living in an era when military tactics make helicopters used as supply and support vehicles, can see through. this same point is completely Opaque to anyone on the other side. This is not an Assumption, this is an actual, well known Phenomonon of history

[Tvtyrant]

The biggest issue I have with the Tippyverse is the inadequate explanation of what the wizards get out of it. Once you have Genesis you don't need to create a new society to make bank; just live on your personal dimension and be a god.

[Coidzor]

Instantly? No, the actual progression of the tippyverse is more likely backwards. The Military applications would be discovered before the economic in terms of TC.

Asto Kelb: here are a number of flaws to your argument:

Wizards fly around because it is fun to them, provides a bit of combat advantage, and lets them bypass terrain (also, screw you walking). They dont typically stick the rest of the party in a bag of holding to dump them inside the castle, they cast mass teleport. This does not lend itself to the idea of Dumping an army through an established rift.

You seem to be contradicting yourself by saying they'd think of dumping an army through a teleportation circle first and then saying that they're too stupid to think of dumping an army through a teleportation circle.

You also seem to be seriously disparaging the intelligence of someone who has either been a successful wizard adventurer or been a wizardly non-adventurer for even longer.

The preponderance of forms of transportation began as vehicles of commerce rather than tools of war from everything I've ever read. The only exceptions that I'm aware of are the horse and flight, and even then with the horse what I've read casts some level of doubt on the exact ordering of events.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Instantly? No, the actual progression of the tippyverse is more likely backwards. The Military applications would be discovered before the economic in terms of TC.

Asto Kelb: here are a number of flaws to your argument:

Wizards fly around because it is fun to them, provides a bit of combat advantage, and lets them bypass terrain (also, screw you walking). They dont typically stick the rest of the party in a bag of holding to dump them inside the castle, they cast mass teleport. This does not lend itself to the idea of Dumping an army through an established rift.

In fact, the planes where 3 Dimensional travel is mandatory, such as the plane of air and Limbo, dont lend themselves to logical thought.

As i Said, there is a Technological Singularity/Event Horizon which We, as people Living in an era when military tactics make helicopters used as supply and support vehicles, can see through. this same point is completely Opaque to anyone on the other side. This is not an Assumption, this is an actual, well known Phenomonon of history

I'm not ignoring that particular phenomenon becaus I'm unaware of it, I'm ignoring it because it doesn't apply in this context. You however are ignoring another historical phenomenon, albeit a much more recent one; science fact is often guided by science fiction. The idea of certain technologies has often preceeded the ability of science to produce those technologies. Example: Jules Verne designed a rocket to fly to the moon almost a century before it was actually done. His design was only different from the actual saturn V rocket in a few fairly trivial ways.

As for my comment about know (the planes) you completely missed my point, though I suppose I really should've spelled it out a bit better. Wizards are often accustomed to thinking about space in not just the typical three dimensions of the prime, but in the 4+ dimensions that divide up the planes. Thinking about things like aerial supply and reconnaisance would be trivial next to such dimensional scope. Nevermind that you yourself have shown that wizards often do think of the tactical applications of flight and teleportation. The idea that they couldn't fathom applying these magicks to more economic pursuits is absurd in the extreme.

As for "flight is fun" or "screw walking," those are individual opinions that don't apply equally to all wizards anymore than "lemon meringue is delicious" would apply to all patissiers. They'll know how to make it, but that doesn't necessarily mean they like it, just as many wizards will have learned how to cast fly or teleport even though they may find the experiences of flying or teleportation unpleasant.

[The Random NPC]

The biggest issue I have with the Tippyverse is the inadequate explanation of what the wizards get out of it. Once you have Genesis you don't need to create a new society to make bank; just live on your personal dimension and be a god.

There doesn't need to be much of an explanation, just one wizard thinking I want X to get here faster *casts Teleport Circle*, is needed to kick start the whole thing.

[toapat]

You seem to be contradicting yourself by saying they'd think of dumping an army through a teleportation circle first and then saying that they're too stupid to think of dumping an army through a teleportation circle.

you are misinterpretting what a Technological Singularity is, or im not explaining it well enough:

First, and Foremost: It cant be done by a Wizard.

Yes, Int is the skill for intelligence, and governs the knowledge skills.

Knowledge, has this nasty habit of making people rigid and unadaptable.

Adversity? That is a monkeywrench a wizard only has do deal with if they barred all good schools. This guy clearly hasnt barred Conjuration, hes just going to teleport to the battlefield and call in something big and disastrous, he is going to go with the most obvious, efficient, and brutal method he chooses, because it works, and the enemies dont have too much they will be able to do in retaliation.

A sorcerer, in the same position, barred to only to utility spells that do not summon enemies, is going to have to think, he wont be too great at it, but he is going to have to improvise, he will have to figure out what his abysmal spell list can do because he himself is useless.

More specifically, the only way to bust through that technological Singularity is by Tripping face first through it. Tippy put this as a guy notices in his spellbook that Teleportation Circle is under the list of things he can permanance. i Believe its more along the lines of a full caster has to figure out what the hell he can do, and he realizes that he has:
A: an army
B: The ability to scout where he needs that army
C: the ability to drop that Army where it needs to be

[Kelb_Panthera]

The biggest issue I have with the Tippyverse is the inadequate explanation of what the wizards get out of it. Once you have Genesis you don't need to create a new society to make bank; just live on your personal dimension and be a god.

It mostly starts off as money. The wizard that puts a start to the whole shebang stands to make more bank than you can shake a stick at, if he makes a few good deals and a few solid contracts. Other wizards see this success and emulate. Then the tippyverse just kind of happens around them before they realize that the even longer-term ramifications actually result in the value of the massive amount of money they're making off of these deals is substantially less than the value it had when he started because of inflation.

Unfortunately, the wizards that built the tippyverse are probably the most likely people to try and bring it down. Depending on how well they do at either end of that time-period, you may get an age of enlightenment, dark-age, rennaisance cycle, just like the real world did.

[Tvtyrant]

There doesn't need to be much of an explanation, just one wizard thinking I want X to get here faster *casts Teleport Circle*, is needed to kick start the whole thing.

No, that's enough to make a teleportation circle. Tippyverse requires having widespread use of magic in order to make super-dense cities, and the super-dense cities are created to deal with the threat of teleporting armies. No where in there is a real explanation of why casters would be aiding armies in that way appear, or why the wizards are not committing genocide on the none casters, or each create their own feudal society and simply split the worlds.

It is one way of spinning a world, but it is no more logical than other ways of doing it. The mundane world simply doesn't have enough to offer casters to make a caster based society truly logical. Even humanoid slaves fall apart in front of the ability to planar bind outsiders who are both more obedient and more attractive.

[Kelb_Panthera]

No, that's enough to make a teleportation circle. Tippyverse requires having widespread use of magic in order to make super-dense cities, and the super-dense cities are created to deal with the threat of teleporting armies. No where in there is a real explanation of why casters would be aiding armies in that way appear, or why the wizards are not committing genocide on the none casters, or each create their own feudal society and simply split the worlds.

It is one way of spinning a world, but it is no more logical than other ways of doing it. The mundane world simply doesn't have enough to offer casters to make a caster based society truly logical. Even humanoid slaves fall apart in front of the ability to planar bind outsiders who are both more obedient and more attractive.

How about patriotism?

Some wizards will grow up in very nationalist states depending on the worlds political climate. They'll come up being taught that one of the greatest things you can do in life is to support your city-state/nation/empire in whatever way you can. For a wizard, that way lies with magic.

It doesn't even necessarily have to be a nationalist state. Just a particularly patriotic parent or aunt/uncle can get the proper mind-set ingrained in a given wizard to be. Heroes; whether personal, political, or religous; can have a profound influence on people.

[Tvtyrant]

How about patriotism?

Some wizards will grow up in very nationalist states depending on the worlds political climate. They'll come up being taught that one of the greatest things you can do in life is to support your city-state/nation/empire in whatever way you can. For a wizard, that way lies with magic.

It doesn't even necessarily have to be a nationalist state. Just a particularly patriotic parent or aunt/uncle can get the proper mind-set ingrained in a given wizard to be.

Yes, some wizards. And they might come out on top, and they just as easily might not. Other wizards may rip their society apart as easily as they built it, and honestly I find this more likely.

[The Random NPC]

No, that's enough to make a teleportation circle. Tippyverse requires having widespread use of magic in order to make super-dense cities, and the super-dense cities are created to deal with the threat of teleporting armies. No where in there is a real explanation of why casters would be aiding armies in that way appear, or why the wizards are not committing genocide on the none casters, or each create their own feudal society and simply split the worlds.

It is one way of spinning a world, but it is no more logical than other ways of doing it. The mundane world simply doesn't have enough to offer casters to make a caster based society truly logical. Even humanoid slaves fall apart in front of the ability to planar bind outsiders who are both more obedient and more attractive.

A desire to help one's fellow man? I'm not quite sure what you are saying though. If it's that casters wouldn't always create Magocratic cities, then yeah of course. You could have any wizard smart enough to figure out the Tippyverse retreat to their personal plane/paradise to eventually become gods. The Tippyverse isn't the only logical state of existence, but it is one.
EDIT:

Yes, some wizards. And they might come out on top, and they just as easily might not. Other wizards may rip their society apart as easily as they built it, and honestly I find this more likely.

Why would they care? You can't have it both ways, either they care enough to help their fellow man or they don't.

[Coidzor]

you are misinterpretting what a Technological Singularity is, or im not explaining it well enough:

You're not explaining it at all in this post and haven't in any of your other posts, for starters.

Then there's the bit where I reject the idea that it's something beyond the intellectual capabilities of a creature more intelligent than any person currently alive when you've provided nothing in the way of a compelling argument.


First, and Foremost: It cant be done by a Wizard.

Yes, Int is the skill for intelligence, and governs the knowledge skills.

Knowledge, has this nasty habit of making people rigid and unadaptable.
Knowing what a teleportation circle does, knowing that they can permanently put it into place, and knowing that transportation of goods is something that's tricky because of all of the monsters he's made good money off of to finance his rise to power definitely makes him rigid and unable to see a patently obvious application of his capabilities.

Right. If the pursuit of knowledge meeting any kind of success led to stagnation then our scientific advance would have dead-ended by now.

Further, you've not actually bothered to show how it *can't* be done by a wizard, you've just continually asserted it when you haven't outright contradicted yourself by going on about how wizards always have armies and want to take things over with said armies and that's the first step on the road to the tippyverse. :smallconfused:


Heroes; whether personal, political, or religous; can have a profound influence on people.

And being a hero can sometimes lead to a bit of an attachment to those one protects.

[Tvtyrant]

A desire to help one's fellow man? I'm not quite sure what you are saying though.

If it's that casters wouldn't always create Magocratic cities, then yeah of course. You could have any wizard smart enough to figure out the Tippyverse retreat to their personal plane/paradise to eventually become gods. The Tippyverse isn't the only logical state of existence, but it is one.

Why would they care? You can't have it both ways, either they care enough to help their fellow man or they don't.

Yeah, good luck with that :smallwink:

Exactly. It is one way that you could apply logic to a D&D society, but it is not an inherently superior one.

Actually, I can. Casters are not some homogeneous mass, and if some some of them want to make the world better, some of them are going to want to watch it burn. In neither case do they benefit from the action in a monetary way (because they can make anything they can be paid in), but for the personal pleasure of hurting or helping people they can do whatever they want.

[Coidzor]

Yeah, good luck with that :smallwink:

Exactly. It is one way that you could apply logic to a D&D society, but it is not an inherently superior one.

Be that as may be, as far as the consequences of magic for society, it sure beats the pants off of settings that don't consider the role of magic and tack it on as an after thought.

Which is a point that always seems to get lost in the hustle and bustle of the threads.

[Tvtyrant]

Be that as may be, as far as the consequences of magic for society, it sure beats the pants off of settings that don't consider the role of magic and tack it on as an after thought.

Which is a point that always seems to get lost in the hustle and bustle of the threads.

As a thought exercise I tend to agree, but I don't think I would want to play a game in it. Too little to do as individuals, too much power in the hands of the government. As Doctor Wily says "they follow the man who turns the wheels."

[Kelb_Panthera]

To be perfectly honest, TvTyrant, you've hit the nail on the head for the other thing that prevents the tippyverse, aside from DM fiat.

In-universe there will be parties both for and against the ideas that lead down that road. As long as they remain in a more or less stable equilibrium the tippyverse can't come to pass.

If history has taught me anything, however, it's this; you can't stop progress. In any given world, the tippyverse will happen eventually. It may or may not stand forever (see the roman empire and some if its more advanced tech) but it will form eventually.

This, of course, brings up the problem of medieval stasis that inexplicably grips most campaign worlds, but that's a whole different can of worms.

[Kelb_Panthera]

As a thought exercise I tend to agree, but I don't think I would want to play a game in it. Too little to do as individuals, too much power in the hands of the government. As Doctor Wily says "they follow the man who turns the wheels."

I don't know. How much or how little fun you could have in the tippyverse depends on where in the tippyverse timeline you are, and whether or not political intrigue appeals to you.

At no point does the tippyverse actually lead to everyone being equal and happy. Society will always stratify and someone will always be jockying for the top position. Playing one of those jockeys could be alot of fun if you're into that sort of thing.

[toapat]

Knowing what a teleportation circle does, knowing that they can permanently put it into place, and knowing that transportation of goods is something that's tricky because of all of the monsters he's made good money off of to finance his rise to power definitely makes him rigid and unable to see a patently obvious application of his capabilities.

Right. If the pursuit of knowledge meeting any kind of success led to stagnation then our scientific advance would have dead-ended by now.

Further, you've not actually bothered to show how it *can't* be done by a wizard, you've just continually asserted it when you haven't outright contradicted yourself by going on about how wizards always have armies and want to take things over with said armies and that's the first step on the road to the tippyverse. :smallconfused:

1: Knowing what something is (a Circle of Teleportation), and Knowing the practical applications of that thing (uniting Society via trade and dropping troops where you need them), are entirely different. take Electricity. a gag for decades. now we talk using it, generate significant ammounts of light, and refridgerate raw meat with it.

Wizards would use teleportation circle as though we use cars. So mundane to them that they dont realize how it could be applied.

2: Technological Event Horizons are not common. The Transistor would have been the closest we have had to one in recent times, but we discovered it before we hit the wall (a very distant wall at that) because we had been screwing around for a while with semi-conductors. Perhaps the best example would be Gunpowder, the first thing used to create complex machines. naming a singularity itself is rather difficult, because we are, as a result to living before their occurance, blind to them.

3: A Wizard has options. You cant cut so much out of a wizard's flexibility that their only option is Invent ODSTs. A Sorcerer can very well though have that problem, and be forced to adapt.

[TuggyNE]

1: Knowing what something is (a Circle of Teleportation), and Knowing the practical applications of that thing (uniting Society via trade and dropping troops where you need them), are entirely different. take Electricity. a gag for decades. now we talk using it, generate significant ammounts of light, and refridgerate raw meat with it.

Wizards would use teleportation circle as though we use cars. So mundane to them that they dont realize how it could be applied.

2: Technological Event Horizons are not common. The Transistor would have been the closest we have had to one in recent times, but we discovered it before we hit the wall (a very distant wall at that) because we had been screwing around for a while with semi-conductors. Perhaps the best example would be Gunpowder, the first thing used to create complex machines. naming a singularity itself is rather difficult, because we are, as a result to living before their occurance, blind to them.

You're honestly arguing against yourself here. Each of your examples is actually a case where, initially, the full implications were not understood, until smart people, motivated by curiosity, financial need, or the press of war, figured out new applications for them.

Wizards are smart, generally curious, can certainly desire money, and are often requested to serve a nation's military. Furthermore, they are specifically indicated to be researching spells a great deal of the time. How then are you so certain that they could never ever develop this particular application of certain spells?

To your specific example of cars, I'd note that certain applications of cars (e.g., mechanized infantry) were discovered several decades after the technology was hammered out to the point of usability.

Also I would argue that the first complex machines were powered by either muscles or water, depending on exact definition of "complex", with steam and then wind coming later; the first steam engine was developed by ancient Greeks around 100 BC, if memory serves.

[The Random NPC]

Also I would argue that the first complex machines were powered by either muscles or water, depending on exact definition of "complex", with steam and then wind coming later; the first steam engine was developed by ancient Greeks around 100 BC, if memory serves.

I think it was the Chinese, and I think it was supposed to be a war machine. I'm not sure, but either way, the "car" was invented centuries before it was feasible.

[toapat]

I think it was the Chinese, and I think it was supposed to be a war machine. I'm not sure, but either way, the "car" was invented centuries before it was feasible.

technically the car a mechanical system.

The gun was used because it was the first common chemical machine

the (de)compression chamber

a simple steam turbine was blueprinted in egypt, but the steam engine wouldnt see development for millennia because of "lack of forseeable applications"

[ThiagoMartell]

In any given world, the tippyverse will happen eventually.
I strongly disagree with this.
The TV is one way magic can be used reliably to improve everyone's lives. It is not the only way to do so.
Will magitech happen, given time? Most probably, yes. Will the TV happen? Only if you want it to.

[Arcanist]

I strongly disagree with this.
The TV is one way magic can be used reliably to improve everyone's lives. It is not the only way to do so.
Will magitech happen, given time? Most probably, yes. Will the TV happen? Only if you want it to.

AND THUS THE CYCLE CONTINUES!

(See Mass Effect 3 "Reject" ending)

[Dusk Eclipse]

To be honest I think Eberron's take on Magic and it's consequences on everyday life seems more plausible if a bit more limited; but I think that is because most high level casters aren't humanoid (baring Loli-pope inside flamekeep) or aren't even in Khorvaire (I know there is a level 17th Telepath in the Tashalastora monastery, not to mention the few giants that still live on Xen'drik) or are Dragons...

Given time and more high level casters I think Eberron could be on it's way to become some sort of Tippyverse.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I strongly disagree with this.
The TV is one way magic can be used reliably to improve everyone's lives. It is not the only way to do so.
Will magitech happen, given time? Most probably, yes. Will the TV happen? Only if you want it to.

I suspect your disagreement lies in a stricter interpretation of the word "tippyverse" than I intended.

What I was saying there is that, given enough time, those magicks will be put to those applications.

Sooner or later somebody will make the connection between TP circles and trade economy.

Sooner or later someone will realize that a permanent wall of fire is a limitless source of energy that can be harnessed, probably through steam.

Sooner or later someone will realize that a food & water trap can effectively end hunger for that city.

And so on and so forth.

You're correct in that EmperorTippy's vision of a post-scarcity utopia where everyone lives in their own private demiplane in perfect happiness forever is only one possible outcome of these advancements; a rather unlikely one at that, IMO.

[Suddo]

There are levels of Tippyverse here are some basic popular concepts:

Permanent Teleportation Circles
Teleportation Circle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportationCircle.htm) is pretty much one of the base line ideas of the Tippyverse. When you permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) one a teleportation circle you can quickly charge low rates to allow for merchants to travel between cities without fear of being attacked. The profit is easy enough to come by if you consider how many theoretical merchants are traveling and they usually have to higher a couple of body guards and then they have to waste time. Its quite a good idea.

Resetting Trap of Create Food and Water
Resetting Traps of (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#tableCostModifiersforMagicDeviceTraps) Create Food And Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createFoodAndWater.htm) are a low level way to break everything. This is most easily done with a Artificier and as low as level five (maybe six). Basically you make it cast create food and water once every round (six seconds) creating enough food for 14400 people. This will be worth about 4320gp a day which can quickly refund any lost money, 14400 daily food, 43200 poor meals, poor meals are 1sp. Apply a trap of prestidigitation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prestidigitation.htm) to make it taste amazing and charge 6gp instead of 3sp (3 good meals versus 3 poor meals) and you'll make 86400gp a day. This assumes you can sell all the product. You of course will have to hire a wait staff and buy a building but since you are making more money than 6th level wealth by level a day (a week if not using prestidigitation) you should be able to afford it.


Those are my two favorite. So all you need is 1 creative 6th-ish level Artificier and 1 3rd level divine scroll and you pretty much break the entire world in half.

Edit:
I'd like to throw in that magic resetting trap is enough to break the world and this happens at level 5 or 6 (I forget if Artificiers get Create Wondrous Item at level 5 or if they have to pick it up at 6). Yes Tele-Circles are really broken and will probably break the world faster but you know what by that time you have Wish so no one cares about Tele-Circles. The fun part about this is seeing at what point the world might break.

Edit: Edit: Wondrous Item can be taken at level 3 that means a 3rd level Artificier with a 3rd level scroll (5th level character to make) can break the world.

[Doug Lampert]

I'd like to throw in that magic resetting trap is enough to break the world and this happens at level 5 or 6 (I forget if Artificiers get Create Wondrous Item at level 5 or if they have to pick it up at 6). Yes Tele-Circles are really broken and will probably break the world faster but you know what by that time you have Wish so no one cares about Tele-Circles. The fun part about this is seeing at what point the world might break.

Actual casters can take Craft Wondrous at level 3. So a bog standard core only BtB cleric can do this at level 5.

[Suddo]

Actual casters can take Craft Wondrous at level 3. So a bog standard core only BtB cleric can do this at level 5.

Oh wow its only level 3 I thought it was 5. That makes it a level 3 artificier with access to a 3rd level scroll (so 5th level character)

[Kelb_Panthera]

There are levels of Tippyverse here are some basic popular concepts:

Permanent Teleportation Circles
Teleportation Circle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportationCircle.htm) is pretty much one of the base line ideas of the Tippyverse. When you permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) one a teleportation circle you can quickly charge low rates to allow for merchants to travel between cities without fear of being attacked. The profit is easy enough to come by if you consider how many theoretical merchants are traveling and they usually have to higher a couple of body guards and then they have to waste time. Its quite a good idea.

Resetting Trap of Create Food and Water
Resetting Traps of (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#tableCostModifiersforMagicDeviceTraps) Create Food And Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createFoodAndWater.htm) are a low level way to break everything. This is most easily done with a Artificier and as low as level five (maybe six). Basically you make it cast create food and water once every round (six seconds) creating enough food for 14400 people. This will be worth about 4320gp a day which can quickly refund any lost money, 14400 daily food, 43200 poor meals, poor meals are 1sp. Apply a trap of prestidigitation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prestidigitation.htm) to make it taste amazing and charge 6gp instead of 3sp (3 good meals versus 3 poor meals) and you'll make 86400gp a day. This assumes you can sell all the product. You of course will have to hire a wait staff and buy a building but since you are making more money than 6th level wealth by level a day (a week if not using prestidigitation) you should be able to afford it.


Those are my two favorite. So all you need is 1 creative 6th-ish level Artificier and 1 3rd level divine scroll and you pretty much break the entire world in half.

Edit:
I'd like to throw in that magic resetting trap is enough to break the world and this happens at level 5 or 6 (I forget if Artificiers get Create Wondrous Item at level 5 or if they have to pick it up at 6). Yes Tele-Circles are really broken and will probably break the world faster but you know what by that time you have Wish so no one cares about Tele-Circles. The fun part about this is seeing at what point the world might break.

Edit: Edit: Wondrous Item can be taken at level 3 that means a 3rd level Artificier with a 3rd level scroll (5th level character to make) can break the world.

Those numbers, on your food and water trap calculations, will only hold for a relatively short period. Once another party figures out how you're making such massive profits they'll emulate. Then you get into a price war, and before you know it the food those traps are making is being sold for close to production cost; next to nothing that is.

The same principle applies to the TP circles.

It still breaks the crap out of the game for a bit though. Things will balance out again unless you completely ignore economics.

Ignoring economics in D&D is usually a good idea, but this is one case where circumstances actually make it unfeasible.

[Emperor Tippy]

The basic, foundational, requirement of the "Tippyverse" is cheap, repeatable, instant, transportation between two locations without passing through the intervening area (i.e. teleportation).

Permanent Teleportation Circles are one of the best ways to do this but Automatic Resetting Teleportation (and Greater Teleportation) Traps also work.

If teleportation is possible then it will eventually be used to eliminate trade routes between major industrial centers (nothing else can compete with the cost, time, or security that teleportation offers). This will eliminate the ancillary infrastructure required to maintain those trade routes (ship construction, small towns spread along trade routes, etc); real life history bares this out.

Such teleportation also makes it very easy to move a military force a vast distance with no warning. It makes it impossible to defend a traditional nations borders. Military force will end up concentrated around critical infrastructure because the only way to defend a point is to have enough military force on that point, constantly, to stand off any conceivable attack. This concentration of force increases security in those areas and decreases it outside those areas. This means that civilians will move to those areas (creating cities).

Everything else in the "tippyverse" follows on from this basic foundation and is largely the result of solving the problems such a verse creates (such as the Create Food and Water traps solving the inability to secure farm land).

[WarKitty]

The basic, foundational, requirement of the "Tippyverse" is cheap, repeatable, instant, transportation between two locations without passing through the intervening area (i.e. teleportation).

Permanent Teleportation Circles are one of the best ways to do this but Automatic Resetting Teleportation (and Greater Teleportation) Traps also work.

If teleportation is possible then it will eventually be used to eliminate trade routes between major industrial centers (nothing else can compete with the cost, time, or security that teleportation offers). This will eliminate the ancillary infrastructure required to maintain those trade routes (ship construction, small towns spread along trade routes, etc); real life history bares this out.

Such teleportation also makes it very easy to move a military force a vast distance with no warning. It makes it impossible to defend a traditional nations borders. Military force will end up concentrated around critical infrastructure because the only way to defend a point is to have enough military force on that point, constantly, to stand off any conceivable attack. This concentration of force increases security in those areas and decreases it outside those areas. This means that civilians will move to those areas (creating cities).

Everything else in the "tippyverse" follows on from this basic foundation and is largely the result of solving the problems such a verse creates (such as the Create Food and Water traps solving the inability to secure farm land).

We sort of went over that a few posts back. The problem was I didn't realize that Tippyverse had such a specific definition, so the question I asked in the first post isn't one that's terribly relevant to what I'm trying to find out. I'm more interested in what the minimum level/availability of magic is where it starts having major effects such as to make society look nothing like anything we've seen.

If it's all built around one spell, or a small select set of spells, it's fairly easy to get around as a DM if you don't want it. I'm more trying to build a world that is plausibly affected by magic without being overwhelmed into unplayability by it.

[Gavinfoxx]

We sort of went over that a few posts back. The problem was I didn't realize that Tippyverse had such a specific definition, so the question I asked in the first post isn't one that's terribly relevant to what I'm trying to find out. I'm more interested in what the minimum level/availability of magic is where it starts having major effects such as to make society look nothing like anything we've seen.

If it's all built around one spell, or a small select set of spells, it's fairly easy to get around as a DM if you don't want it. I'm more trying to build a world that is plausibly affected by magic without being overwhelmed into unplayability by it.

Well... look at all of the stuff in my guide about post-scarcity. You'll probably have to remove a LOT of those options...

[Emperor Tippy]

We sort of went over that a few posts back. The problem was I didn't realize that Tippyverse had such a specific definition, so the question I asked in the first post isn't one that's terribly relevant to what I'm trying to find out. I'm more interested in what the minimum level/availability of magic is where it starts having major effects such as to make society look nothing like anything we've seen.

If it's all built around one spell, or a small select set of spells, it's fairly easy to get around as a DM if you don't want it. I'm more trying to build a world that is plausibly affected by magic without being overwhelmed into unplayability by it.

The tippyverse is not remotely unplayable. In point of fact it is one of the most playable D&D settings.

That being said, even the lowest levels and most basic magic can have a drastic effect on the world. Especially if you allow magic items (and especially traps).

[WarKitty]

Well... look at all of the stuff in my guide about post-scarcity. You'll probably have to remove a LOT of those options...

I did actually. I'm not convinced that all the availability things work as you say. Especially if you don't assume that 9th level spells are easily findable and castable.


The tippyverse is not remotely unplayable. In point of fact it is one of the most playable D&D settings.

That being said, even the lowest levels and most basic magic can have a drastic effect on the world. Especially if you allow magic items (and especially traps).

It's...not particularly playable either at low levels or if you're not a caster. What I'm trying to do is a world where magic has an effect, without going "lol u suck peon" to every non-magical character in the world.

[tyckspoon]

We sort of went over that a few posts back. The problem was I didn't realize that Tippyverse had such a specific definition, so the question I asked in the first post isn't one that's terribly relevant to what I'm trying to find out. I'm more interested in what the minimum level/availability of magic is where it starts having major effects such as to make society look nothing like anything we've seen.


The most basic one I can think of is a Create Water trap; set it up so you have a tank of water that automatically refills itself to a certain point and you have a reliable permanent supply of water. It doesn't have the "nobody ever has to do subsistence farming again" effect of widespread Create Food and Water, but it does make your farming much more reliable- you can continue to water and grow your crops even in absolute drought conditions. Your society is now functionally immune to famine and, absent some other catastrophic event, your population will grow. Spare people means greater economic potential, especially in trained/specialist fields that you can't normally spare hands to learn when a majority of your workforce are dirt-farmers. IIRC it also tends to lead to urbanization and the development of a non-land-ownership-based upper and middle-class..

So basically it's the reason why D&D cities actually exist in their Renaissance-esque state, despite the popular conception of much of the setting being stuck on dung-covered-peasants Dark Ages.

[Spuddles]

I've always wanted to run a tippyverse setting with a really strong metanarrative on tropes. If resetting traps of food can feed everyone? Why are there dirt farmers? Because the gods of the harvest demand dirt farming. Imagine everyone toiling in the fields all day, only to return to their hab block, eat their half ration of Party gruel, engage in a Party approved leisure activity, go to sleep, then return to the fields the next day.

The whole setting would be full of extremely pious people performing labors to venerate gods who don't have uses any more.

In a post scarcity world, everyone is laboring to ensure that their afterlife will be as good as possible.


The tippyverse is not remotely unplayable. In point of fact it is one of the most playable D&D settings.

That being said, even the lowest levels and most basic magic can have a drastic effect on the world. Especially if you allow magic items (and especially traps).

The point of lights setting is like a more coherent version of Gygax's Greyhawk. Citystates with powerful mages surrounded by monster-infested wilderness and autocratic fiefdoms ruled by petty tyrants.

[Coidzor]

I did actually. I'm not convinced that all the availability things work as you say. Especially if you don't assume that 9th level spells are easily findable and castable.

You can still do a fair bit with lower level casting, as I think 3-4th level spells do most of Eberron's stuff with 5th level ones being the upper end for most purposes.


It's...not particularly playable either at low levels or if you're not a caster. What I'm trying to do is a world where magic has an effect, without going "lol u suck peon" to every non-magical character in the world.

There's plenty of more traditional adventuring out in the wilds. Political intrigues don't operate solely on innate magical ability either. And there's all kinds of gladiatorial things in the more decadent ones.

I'm honestly not sure where you're going with this "lol u suck peon" thing, either or what you're really meaning. As has been said, caster superiority is based solely upon the classes, not the setting.

[Aegis013]

It's...not particularly playable either at low levels or if you're not a caster. What I'm trying to do is a world where magic has an effect, without going "lol u suck peon" to every non-magical character in the world.

It's still definitely playable if you're not a caster. I use a city in a Tippyverse-esque setting for my campaign and even non-casters have a place to fit, and even shine. The group have said it's the best game and the most immersing setting they've played in.

Thank you Emperor Tippy for sharing your vision with us.

[WarKitty]

The easiest change to make might be to assume that magic traps *do* decay over time, at least with repeated use. The other interesting question I had was - would much of this be altered in a society where labor was cheap and plentiful? Especially a slave society. That might even provide a disincentive to developing more widespread technology, if you have a highly stratified society.

My worry in general is, if you have a highly magical society, what reason is there for anyone to ever learn a sword in the first place? You know that whatever you can do there's a construct that can do it better. I know there's issues at high levels, but it seems like once you get easily available magic creations there's little reason for anyone to train in the first place.

[toapat]

I know there's issues at high levels, but it seems like once you get easily available magic creations there's little reason for anyone to train in the first place.

simple, the reason people still train in martial weapon combat. For fun.

the simple fact is, once you hit TV, its going to come to some point where someone figures out how to make some form of gunpowder. at that point its only some wild mass guessing and you have assault rifles.

[Gavinfoxx]

I did actually. I'm not convinced that all the availability things work as you say. Especially if you don't assume that 9th level spells are easily findable and castable.

Which particular issues do you have? And most of the magic isn't close to 9th level... much of it can be done with a level 11 artificer or so...

[ThiagoMartell]

If you don't allow auto-resetting beneficial traps and use the DMG demographics, then there is no TV. If spellcasters charge per spell cast (as they should per RAW), there is no TV.
Eberron is a setting where magic is used daily in practical ways and remains viable for all characters. It uses even lower level demographics (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040712a) and restricts use of magic via the Dragonmarked Houses. Also, only spells from levels 1-3 are easily available.
I think Eberron does pretty much what you want, WarKitty.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you don't allow auto-resetting beneficial traps

I listed like five other ways to get eternal casting of spells from items in my post-scarcity guide... SOME of those are likely to exist!

[Telok]

If you don't allow auto-resetting beneficial traps and use the DMG demographics, then there is no TV. If spellcasters charge per spell cast (as they should per RAW), there is no TV.

You can build Star Wars style speeders with just Levitate, Gust of Wind, a chair, and a barrel or two. It will run you about 25,000 gp per speeder, carry around 200 lbs, and top out at around 55 mph. You can have someone make it for you at level 3.

It's not a big jump from a Decanter of Endless Water to a Bucket of Endless Barley/Carrots/Beef Chunks. The auto-traps are the cheapest way to do those things, but not the only way.

The DMG demographics also suggest that for a "metropolis" of 26,000 people there will be 4 wizards of 1d4+12 levels each. Plus twice that number of wizards of half those levels, and again twice the number of them at half of their levels, and so on until you get to level 1 wizards. Giving an "average" of one each 13th through 16th level wizards gives that a population of:
16th = 1
15th = 1
14th = 1
13th = 1
8th = 2
7th = 4
6th = 2
4th = 4
3rd = 12
2nd = 8
1st = 40

That's just wizards, there's going to be the same number of sorcerers too. If you look at clerics you'll find they get four of them with 1d6+12 levels, giving you a 50/50 chance of a level 17+ cleric. Remember that these are the numbers for a 26,000 population city, Moscow in the 15th century had a population in excess of 200,000 and ancient Rome had more than 450,000 (lowball estimate of only the Imperial City).

While a magic item room of Greater Teleport is going to run you 182,000 gp to buy before any cost reductions it's also available at level 13. A Tippyverse is absolutely doable with the rules as written in only the core books.

Edit: Ok, that room is 91,000 gp and 7280 xp to make. It will take 182 days, about six months, to build. Again this assumes no price reductions. You could make this sucker a wagon that teleported anywhere, perfectly, for that price. The real price of the room is probably going to be 1/4 or 1/5th of this because of reductions. Just going with size (no space limitation, reversed and you can't take it with you), a skill rank requirement (Kn:Arcana 5) and a class limiter (must be wizard) you can get it down to 54,600 gp to buy. Making it this way will cost 27,300 gp and 2184 xp. This is still just using a wizard with Craft Wonderous Item, we haven't even considered artificers with crafting feats yet.

[Coidzor]

If you don't allow auto-resetting beneficial traps and use the DMG demographics, then there is no TV. If spellcasters charge per spell cast (as they should per RAW), there is no TV.

:smallconfused: DMG Demographics encourage there being enough casters of sufficient level for this.

Spellcasters charging per spell is irrelevant except in cases where the crafter can outright afford it.

[ThiagoMartell]

:smallconfused: DMG Demographics encourage there being enough casters of sufficient level for this.

Spellcasters charging per spell is irrelevant except in cases where the crafter can outright afford it.

No, you need 17th level Wizards for Teleportation Circle and the best you can get from the DMG demographics is 16th level.

[Gavinfoxx]

No, you need 17th level Wizards for Teleportation Circle and the best you can get from the DMG demographics is 16th level.

There are... a lot of other ways to get Teleportation Circle before that...

[ThiagoMartell]

There are... a lot of other ways to get Teleportation Circle before that...
Irrelevant, optimization is not the norm. You might have one person pulling whatever shenanigans you want, but without multiple level 17 wizards, you can't have the TV as stablished. You will have one guy using Teleportation Circle and one person is not the TV. Not only do you need someone able to do that, you need someone that wants to do that. For that single caster, the benefits are minimal.
TV is not a guaranteed outcome, stop preaching like it is. It depends on several assumptions to be true and all the OP wanted were ways to avoid it happening. Several were listed already.

[Coidzor]

There are... a lot of other ways to get Teleportation Circle before that...

And it's been acknowledged that you can even get around a lack of teleportation circle itself, since teleportation circle is only the most patently obvious way of doing it.

[Heliomance]

I've actually got a rather fun setting that explores what happens after the Tippyverse. If any of my players are reading this, don't open the spoiler. Basically what happened is that centuries ago, there was a functioning TV. Then someone developed Epic Spellcasting, and made the first strike. The ensuing Global Thaumonuclear War threatened to tear apart the fabric of the very planes themselves, so on Mechanus, Primus gave an order. inevitables descended on the Prime en masse, and wiped out pretty much everyone in the big cities. The only people who survived were those few still living in the countryside, some of whom managed to flee through caves into the Underdark. They didn't really understand what happened, but they knew it was the mages' faults. So magic came to be reviled, and magic users persecuted. Centuries pass, and magic has been all but eliminated, remaining only in legends and cautionary tales.

Then I went and made the PCs casters.

[Emperor Tippy]

No, you need 17th level Wizards for Teleportation Circle and the best you can get from the DMG demographics is 16th level.

And the Epic Level Handbook, Manual of the Planes, or Planar Handbook has a continuation of that table with the "Planar Metropolis" settlement category (200,000 or more individuals iirc) that includes wizards of greater than 16th level.

RAW, level 17+ wizards exist.

Leaving that aside, you can create a teleportation circle with a level 13 warlock. Ignoring that, you can achieve the exact same end effect with an automatic resetting trap of Greater Teleport.

[Kelb_Panthera]

And the Epic Level Handbook, Manual of the Planes, or Planar Handbook has a continuation of that table with the "Planar Metropolis" settlement category (200,000 or more individuals iirc) that includes wizards of greater than 16th level.

RAW, level 17+ wizards exist.

Leaving that aside, you can create a teleportation circle with a level 13 warlock. Ignoring that, you can achieve the exact same end effect with an automatic resetting trap of Greater Teleport.

I know the demographic table is extended in the ELH, I'm also certain it's not in MotP, but I can't remember one way or the other if it's in PLH.

The one in ELH even changes the community modifiers so that you actually can find up to a 20th level wizard even in a metropolis of 25,000.

The resetting trap does of course obviate the need for this expansion, but it's definitely part of RAW just like ET^ here says.


......... I never realized that would be the initials for emporer tippy, before now. :smalltongue:

[Arcanist]

And the Epic Level Handbook, Manual of the Planes, or Planar Handbook has a continuation of that table with the "Planar Metropolis" settlement category (200,000 or more individuals iirc) that includes wizards of greater than 16th level.

RAW, level 17+ wizards exist.

Leaving that aside, you can create a teleportation circle with a level 13 warlock. Ignoring that, you can achieve the exact same end effect with an automatic resetting trap of Greater Teleport.

You could also do all of this with a 15th level Artificer if you really want to. Not even requiring the Epic level handbook... But as you stated a Warlock 13 could set up the TV without much effort... Love how you're like Beetlejuice in that if you say "Tippy" 3 times you're automatically summoned into the thread :smallsmile: