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Morithias
2012-10-22, 12:13 AM
Looking over all my D&D books, one of the key things that has been listed in many of the books, so often that it has it's own trope "Our Elves are Better" is arrogance.

But why? The longer life?

If that's the case, why isn't the Doctor an arrogant prick? And there's a reason "Who want to live forever (and 800 years might as well be forever)" is a trope too.

Now this thread is mostly for my character in the Aldhaven game, who so far is basically an elf merchant. A middle class working girl.

Now I don't want to play her as rejecting her species thoughts and natures, but at the same time, I would be sad if I feel in love with a man/woman and knew that he would die by the time I reached middle age.

I mean seriously 170 isn't even Christmas cake for an elf.

So what personality can I give her that embraces elf ideals, but doesn't make other people want to cave her head in with a mace. (the 17 hp doesn't help).

So far the main thing I've found is from a Japanese adventure game I found where elves in the game were portrayed as "Never forgetting" as in if you make a promise to an elf they'll never forget it generations later. 100 years of peace is nothing to an elf, but it's everything to a human. And if there's a promise for something to happen 300 years later, 300 years later an elf is going to be knocking on your door making sure the deal is kept, long after the human is gone.

But....that doesn't seem to be how D&D elves think. I want your guys opinions...how does one make a likeable elf, without subverting everything that basically defines who they are.

I mean just read the relations part of the player's handbook. Human = Unrefined, halflings = staid, gnomes = trivial, dwarves = not fun, half-elves = pity, half-orcs = suspicion. "While haughty, ...elves are generally pleasant and gracious even to those who FALL SHORT OF ELVEN STANDARDS."

I mean everything about them just screams. "We are haughty arrogant, people, who see the other races below us."

So how does one make a likeable elf without rejecting everything that makes them..well..mentally an elf?

Togath
2012-10-22, 12:22 AM
Honestly?, Going by the book it would be pretty hard, so it might be worth just coming up with your own style(maybe having her entire clan or home village be different from most elves).
Im sure Rizban wouldn't mind you rping as an elf with an uncommon personality.

Lord Raziere
2012-10-22, 12:41 AM
I think a character of mine would best be able to answer this:

Nesalar: Good question Morithias! My name is Nesalar Valvani, I am but a humble elven diplomat, but I am sure I will be able to answer it to the best of my ability.
Nesalar: well first, one must consider: those haughty arrogant elves of which you speak are not regarded as representative of our race. They are most often corrupt or foolish nobles, of which arrogance and haughtiness is common to no matter what your race. It just seems that nobility are the face of the elves, also common to all society, and therefore interact with other races the most often.
Nesalar: I became a diplomat to rectify this unfortunate state of affairs, and I can tell you that many elves are cynical of their rulers because of their untoward, disrespectful behavior towards other races. Also, the traits of which you speak are completely negative in connotations- there is no positive mindset to arrogance or haughtiness.
Nesalar: I personally believe that an elf should hold himself to high standards and only serve as an example to others. Think of what other races think of the elves! Long lived! Our youngest members have experienced more of life than any human's most venerable elder. We spend more time learning than any other race!
Nesalar: As a result, the other races expect us to know a lot, to be wise, to be thoughtful and patient, to have experience and to be able to advise them from a position of experience. Our long lives mean that we have the potential to help other races in ways that no other race can with greater knowledge and wisdom, but it is squandered this "arrogance" and "haughtiness" of which you speak, which only breeds hate, jealousy, and divisions.
Nesalar: I say that the elves of which you speak, haven't been living up to what Elves should be.
Nesalar: I say, that an elf should be thoughtful and wise, to be able to give council and advise with serenity and without arrogance, to be patient without any fake "superiority" and to take life in stride while remaining grounded in reality like a tree swaying in wind yet unable to be uprooted- this is the elven ideal, at least in my humble opinion.
Nesalar: Personally, I do not see anyone below me. That is a poisonous, wrong-headed assumption that does not belong in any reasoning. I merely have more experience to share with them, more advice to give when needed. Nesalar: Furthermore, I cannot hold anyone to elven standards, because elven standards assumes you can live for hundreds of years. This is currently impossible except for elves, and so it is quite silly to hold anyone to such standards aside from other elves. If anything, we the elves who have had more time to think about lives, should know to judge other people by different standards than judging their own kind by.
Nesalar: The fact that there are elves out there that foster such wrong-headed stereotypes and degrade other races perceptions of the elven people, saddens me greatly, when there is so much more to us than that.
Nesalar: So please, think not of those haughty arrogant elves, look past them and try to find the wise, patient people we are supposed to be, the ones that help the world with serenity and grace and speak their minds with reason and wisdom. I am but a humble diplomat and cannot possibly articulate how great we can possibly be.

Blightedmarsh
2012-10-22, 12:49 AM
They are arrogant because they think they are better but also because they are afraid that they might not be. Its an insecurity thing.

Elves sparkle, humans shine.

One Step Two
2012-10-22, 12:50 AM
Something to consider is this, that their aloofness can be seen as arrogance, the fact they are so-long lived, when they name obvious wisdom, it can seem as though they are being demeaning, but that's how they act to all lesser races. Not because they believe themselves better, not entirely anyway, but it keeps the other races at arms length. When you live for ten times, or even two times the normal life of others, anyone you would call friend is a grief waiting to happen. They say that for every new person you meet, there is always a good bye, and for the Elves who befriend non-elves, they have many goodbyes to make. So for many elves, it is easier to harden your heart, and keep others fro being to close to you, so that when you eventually depart once and for all, it will hurt that little bit less, perhaps.

Blightedmarsh
2012-10-22, 01:24 AM
And then their is the whole wisdom thing. Correct me if I am wrong but elves are not hyper wise nor super intelligent despite their longevity; could it be that they hold other races at arms length because they are embarrassed by their own slowness, that when they finally wrap their heads around a concept they like to flaunt their accomplishment?



"Never forgetting" as in if you make a promise to an elf they'll never forget it generations later. 100 years of peace is nothing to an elf, but it's everything to a human. And if there's a promise for something to happen 300 years later, 300 years later an elf is going to be knocking on your door making sure the deal is kept, long after the human is gone.

An then there is the memory issue. What if instead of remembering everything they are very forgetful but are avid note takers and diarists. This gives them the basic information but often fails to provide an adequate level of context.

Malak'ai
2012-10-22, 02:32 AM
Something to consider is this, that their aloofness can be seen as arrogance, the fact they are so-long lived, when they name obvious wisdom, it can seem as though they are being demeaning, but that's how they act to all lesser races. Not because they believe themselves better, not entirely anyway, but it keeps the other races at arms length. When you live for ten times, or even two times the normal life of others, anyone you would call friend is a grief waiting to happen. They say that for every new person you meet, there is always a good bye, and for the Elves who befriend non-elves, they have many goodbyes to make. So for many elves, it is easier to harden your heart, and keep others fro being to close to you, so that when you eventually depart once and for all, it will hurt that little bit less, perhaps.

Wow... This is... Just wow.

That's similar to how I've played some of my Elves, but never put so stunningly.
For others, it was contempt of the other races, or even thinking they were "lesser" beings. I played the Confusion card. My Elves would become baffled at, lets say, the Halfling joking with humans about his own height, or the Dwarf getting so huffy when someone insulted him in a very minor way. Just because you live for hundreds of years (thousands in some systems) doesn't mean you actually understand the world at large.

TheOOB
2012-10-22, 02:51 AM
To understand D&D elves, you need to understand their source. D&D elves(and much of D&D in general) are based off of Tolkien elves. In Tolkien's work, elves are immortal beings of great grace and power, each one worth more than a dozen men. The fact that Aragorn and Boromir, two of the greatest warriors among men were able to be better than even a fairly young wood elf in battle was no small feat(and it's arguable whether or not Aragorn is actually fully of the race of man).

When making D&D, they wanted elves, and they wanted to players to be able to be elves, but they didn't want elves to be overpowered, where in lies the problem. Even for a fantasy setting, it strains credibility that a 110 year old would be a level 1 anything when there are level 20 humans who haven't hit their 50's yet. So we got the kind of elves don't really do anything thing we got going on now.

For my part, I usually portray elves slightly differently. I have them mature slower than humans, but they'll be full grown adults by 40-50 at the latest(though many of them stay around an extra decade or two as elven society is overprotective). Elves may be immortal or long lived, but few elves live over 100, and fewer still die of old age. You see, most elves will die from accident, disease, or some other unnatural cause long before age ever becomes an issue(they do have a con penalty), which means while elves CAN get obscenely old, they rarely do.

Totally Guy
2012-10-22, 03:59 AM
So for many elves, it is easier to harden your heart, and keep others fro being to close to you, so that when you eventually depart once and for all, it will hurt that little bit less, perhaps.

As for aging, that stuff doesn't matter to an elf. It's all about that advancement of grief. To them, it's not about how old you are but instead about how much it hurts. The wisest elves preserve their outlook by staying among their own people and not getting close to other races.

Anderlith
2012-10-22, 04:27 AM
So what I do is throw out the rules about ages & elves, it's not good for mechanics or story. This is my set up

Elves live just as long as humans (maybe a shade more)

They are secluded by culture but there are several that do not suffer that stigma. & elves are very community oriented, they have a word of ownership for a borrowed item (awge), & do not think twice about using an item (a tool or plow horse, etc) in their own community, they will never think to borrow something that someone needs though (It's all about what is best for the group)

To gain the solemn trust of an elf is no easy matter, to be called elf-friend is be an honorary elf in all ways. You are a member of the community & must follow the rules & duties to the community

One Step Two
2012-10-22, 04:34 AM
Wow... This is... Just wow.

That's similar to how I've played some of my Elves, but never put so stunningly.
For others, it was contempt of the other races, or even thinking they were "lesser" beings. I played the Confusion card. My Elves would become baffled at, lets say, the Halfling joking with humans about his own height, or the Dwarf getting so huffy when someone insulted him in a very minor way. Just because you live for hundreds of years (thousands in some systems) doesn't mean you actually understand the world at large.

Thanks for the praise, despite the typos :smallbiggrin:


As for aging, that stuff doesn't matter to an elf. It's all about that advancement of grief. To them, it's not about how old you are but instead about how much it hurts. The wisest elves preserve their outlook by staying among their own people and not getting close to other races.


It's also how I interperet Tolkein Elves as well, and why my gaming groups often tend to have elves at any age in a party, even the twenty year old ones. Age in numbers of years means little, it's their experiences that makes up their existence, the given ages in the PHB are more akin to how long elves can stand their adventuring life, and the friends they lose along the way, before giving it up, and retreating from the world.

The Elves who spend their lives among other elves are usually welcoming to travellers, though wary, like any small village is of strangers. It's why you hear of people speaking highly of Elves, despite all the stigma surrounding them.

Socratov
2012-10-22, 04:35 AM
the following homebrew is in my opinion very correct and informative (as well as hilarious)

So you want to play an Elf? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258370)

The Succubus
2012-10-22, 04:38 AM
A thought occurs.

Many folks have mentioned how hard it is for elves to say goodbye to those they care about and that leads to isolation and blah blah blah.

Where are all the elves that went the other way, that embraced life and love and joy and pleasure, knowing that the longest they'd have to put up with a potential problem would be a handful of years at most?

In short, where are the Shameless Hedonistic Elves and if there aren't any, why the hell not?

Totally Guy
2012-10-22, 04:48 AM
In short, where are the Shameless Hedonistic Elves and if there aren't any, why the hell not?

The orcs are the twisted cousins of the elves... :smalltongue:

Edit: But really!

One Step Two
2012-10-22, 04:55 AM
A thought occurs.

Many folks have mentioned how hard it is for elves to say goodbye to those they care about and that leads to isolation and blah blah blah.

Where are all the elves that went the other way, that embraced life and love and joy and pleasure, knowing that the longest they'd have to put up with a potential problem would be a handful of years at most?

In short, where are the Shameless Hedonistic Elves and if there aren't any, why the hell not?

Because those are the same elves, the younger ones, untill they realise they can't forget stuff. :smalltongue:
Of course, I was being quite carte blanche with my depiction, just cause it applies to many doesn't mean it applies to all. There's some elves, that love the idea that they'll outlive anything, and will be prettier than their nearest human rivals for much much longer.
Heck, it's amazing that Elves don't hold grudges longer than dwarves do. But there's a reason why they're labelled as being a mostly Chaotic Good race, emphasis on the Chaotic part, they don't make much sense to humans, so they can do whatever they please, just like everyone else :smallbiggrin:

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-22, 08:26 AM
If that's the case, why isn't the Doctor an arrogant prick? And there's a reason "Who want to live forever (and 800 years might as well be forever)" is a trope too.

Ah, ahaha, hahahaha.....

<ahem>

Have you seen the Tenth Doctor, by any chance? (Or Nine, but Nine grew out of it.)

Lord Raziere
2012-10-22, 09:04 AM
ok, a non-Nesalar answer:

I'm reading Races of the Wild and it says that elves are strongly individualistic which is why the elves are the way they are. namely that, they spend a lot of time learning to be self-sufficient and not judging anyone else's way of doing things. An elf will willingly spend 50 years building their own home all by themselves just so that said home expresses their own individuality perfectly.
Similarly, the elves while intrigued by the concept of love, actually keep away from it because it means relinquishing some of their freedom for life, and its actually easier for an elf to have a human spouse because the human is shorter lived, because it'll eventually meaning the elf will be free again once they die.
Meaning, that elves are so individualistic and freedom-of-choice obsessed that other races look at them as kinda self-indulgent, but the elves are all like "whatever, live whatever way you want to live, your choice, only people who make mistakes can succeed and all that."

Lapak
2012-10-22, 09:52 AM
As for aging, that stuff doesn't matter to an elf. It's all about that advancement of grief. To them, it's not about how old you are but instead about how much it hurts. The wisest elves preserve their outlook by staying among their own people and not getting close to other races.This, plus an additional layer that I picked up on from the Barrani (elves from Sagara's Elantra books, who slant rather meaner and more self-interested than the default, but still.) When asked why they don't seem to form friendships with each other and don't trust people, one of them gave an answer that boiled down to "it's easy to be trustworthy for a couple of decades. It's hard to be trustworthy forever." All of us have stepped on a friend's feeling occasionally, accidentally or on purpose. Some people have actively betrayed their friends for gain or power or spite. To develop a deep friendship or love is to make yourself vulnerable to that kind of pain and betrayal. And it cuts both ways: you have to believe that YOU are able to sustain the relationship forever, *and* trust that your friend is capable of the same. After a few hundred years and one or two 'eternal' friendships that end badly, it's not hard to imagine that you're leery of forming any new ones even if you're lucky enough to have one or two that still stand.

Sith_Happens
2012-10-22, 10:16 AM
Ah, ahaha, hahahaha.....

<ahem>

Have you seen the Tenth Doctor, by any chance? (Or Nine, but Nine grew out of it.)

Darn, I nearly beat you to this.:smalltongue:

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-10-22, 10:42 AM
Darn, I nearly beat you to this.:smalltongue:
XD Yeah, that was my gut reaction when seeing the mouseover preview.

Hallavast
2012-10-22, 12:05 PM
When a race is commonly described as possessing beauty and grace beyond human standards, being nigh immortal, and having unsurpassed swordsmen, craftsmen and artists, members of the race in question rarely have to do anything wrong for humans to think they're arrogant. Part of it might be jealousy or resentment.

And part of it is that humans have an idealized image of elves, because they so often don't have any experience with elven Walmart; where upon the true glory (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghrDIQ-K8mg) of the race is truly revealed.

Drakevarg
2012-10-22, 12:17 PM
I have a tendency to treat elves as a contemplative, abstract sort of race. My setting doesn't make them absurdly long-lived ("only" 300 years), but they don't age significantly slower than humans (30 is considered a young adult, none of this 60-years-to-kindergarden nonsense). What makes them seem so aloof is that while humans tend to think in a more mechanical sense (what is the solution y that will solve problem x?), elves tend to sit around and contemplate the philosophy surrounding the idea.

A good example I used when explaining this to a friend was assassins. Elves in my setting are from an oriental-type culture, and have ninjas as their assassins. An elven assassin isn't significantly better at his job than a human one (a rogue, probably), but he probably has a much deeper understanding and respect for his trade than the human does.

This, I think, goes a long way to explain why elves would be perceived as aloof and snobbish (considering most other races as fairly sloppy in their rush for mechanical excellence without understanding the philosophy behind it) while also explaining why they aren't significantly more advanced than everyone else (because they sit around contemplating their navels half the time when they could be working on a more powerful punch or whatever).

Plus, as my friend pointed out, elves get old just like everyone else - just a lot slower. Old people get stuck in their habits and greatly slow if not stop their personal growth. And since elven old people tend to stick around for another 100 years after that, that leaves a whole bunch of old farts stuck in their ways and holding their people back with tradition.

(A more traditional look at immortal behavior would be to examine the dragons of my setting. Living essentially forever and being decidedly at the top of the food chain, dragons are in no rush to get anything done. A dragon might be reading two dozen books at any given time, leaving them open in his lair and just skimming a sentence or two at random before wandering off to do something else, or just stare at a wall for twenty minutes, or spend several years between moves in a game of chess before finally deciding his next move.)

Lord Tyger
2012-10-22, 12:46 PM
Talking about elves, you have to talk about Tolkien. And here's the thing about Tolkien's elves- in a lot of ways, they were better than Men. What humans considered magic, elves just thought of as "the way we make things, yeah, it's kind of cool, I guess." They lived longer, they were smarter, closer to the gods of the setting, just generally better.

There were actually balancing factors to this, but they play deeply into Middle Earth's metaphysics, and aren't necessarily reflected in the various Tolkien inspired books.

Blightedmarsh
2012-10-22, 01:19 PM
There and then a lot of the worst muck ups in middle earth can be directly attributed to the elves and elf wannabes.

In my setting I am working on insane elves(Eldrin), murder elves(wood), slaver elves(Drow-ish) and conquest elves(High). They do not see themselves as always evil, its just that they equate everyone else to a kind of goblin.

If elves live next to forever but few live much longer than humans then it is quite possible that they would value (even elvish) lifes cheaply.

Ashtagon
2012-10-22, 03:14 PM
First up, from an elf's point of view, humans are ephemeral. An elf would no more think of making a contract with a human as a human would with a mayfly. Sure, the comparison isn't quite so extreme, but still the fact remains that an agreement that lasts just a few decades will be most of a lifetime to a human. An elf would be lucky if the human even still lives when it comes time to collect, let alone remembers the original agreement.

If you make any kind of promise with a human, it will be bound up in legalese, and will be negotiable with the other person's heirs. Better yet, you'll negotiate with a "corporation", "guild", or government, as those can be expected to survive as long as you.

Of course, such legalese is also insane for a typical elf mindset. That level of specificity and attention to detail in a time-limited context requires a level of concentration and focus that is alien to the elven mindset. Any elf willing to do such negotiations is simply put, insane by elf standards. However, elves also realise that such negotiations are needed in the context of international treaty. The obvious implications are that a) most elves will have nothing to do with ephemeral races, and b) elven political leaders are nuts.

afroakuma
2012-10-22, 03:24 PM
the following homebrew is in my opinion very correct and informative (as well as hilarious)

So you want to play an Elf? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258370)

I feel obliged to endorse this, given that it's my own work and preposterously extensive. I feel it's a sufficiently new take on elves, and it's gotten generally positive reviews so far.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-10-22, 04:16 PM
Call me cynical, but I just use elves (when I use them at all) as a type of human that just happens to have pointy ears. They hate and look down upon all other types of people for no reason other than that they have round ears. Bigoted idiots, basically.

Morithias
2012-10-22, 04:23 PM
Well you all make good points, and I thank you for your insight. I think the "Elf" thing is going to be largely ignored since she was born and raised in a holy church in a largely human city as far as I can tell.

I think her "character arc" will revolve around her getting her independence and security. Kinda like in Princess and the Frog, where the girl's dream of opening the restaurant.

The elf thing will probably only come up if she you know, gets a non-elf boyfriend, but we'll see how that turns out once I get leadership and cohorts and such.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-10-22, 04:24 PM
First up, from an elf's point of view, humans are ephemeral. An elf would no more think of making a contract with a human as a human would with a mayfly. Sure, the comparison isn't quite so extreme, but still the fact remains that an agreement that lasts just a few decades will be most of a lifetime to a human. An elf would be lucky if the human even still lives when it comes time to collect, let alone remembers the original agreement.

If you make any kind of promise with a human, it will be bound up in legalese, and will be negotiable with the other person's heirs. Better yet, you'll negotiate with a "corporation", "guild", or government, as those can be expected to survive as long as you.

Of course, such legalese is also insane for a typical elf mindset. That level of specificity and attention to detail in a time-limited context requires a level of concentration and focus that is alien to the elven mindset. Any elf willing to do such negotiations is simply put, insane by elf standards. However, elves also realise that such negotiations are needed in the context of international treaty. The obvious implications are that a) most elves will have nothing to do with ephemeral races, and b) elven political leaders are nuts.

This is good stuff, I just needed to make one minor correction. Bolded to highlight.


Where's that guy that did the math on why elves take so long to mature? That piece is one of the beautiful pieces of math meets raw meets fluff I've ever seen.

Morithias
2012-10-22, 04:56 PM
This is good stuff, I just needed to make one minor correction. Bolded to highlight.


Where's that guy that did the math on why elves take so long to mature? That piece is one of the beautiful pieces of math meets raw meets fluff I've ever seen.

It is very good, and it shows how insane this merchant princess is. Running a business and doing bookkeeping is nothing but contracts and legal work.

Coidzor
2012-10-22, 05:07 PM
Arrogance is the last refuge of racial pride for the elves who refuse to adapt to modern sensibilities and political realities and instead cling to "traditional" ways of living in their forested ghettos.

Urbane Elves of the World know that the deeds of the past are worth remembering to know whose tea to poison, but are not something to wallow in when real prestige and power are at stake.

tbok1992
2012-10-22, 07:19 PM
As a note, I actually came up with Dungeonworld's uber-chef elves (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255799) mainly as a reaction against the uber-snobby-Mary-Sue-elves-who-are-always-right, ALA Eragon's elves, but also against the intentionally jerkish and stasis-inclined elves other authors have made in reaction to said archetypes.

I wanted to make elves that were awesome at what they do, but not completely smug jerks or uber-mary-sues. And I'd be lying if I said I wasn't inlfuenced at least a little bit by the Keebler elves.

I'd think that Dungeonworld's elves would gain a characteristic patience and willingness to learn from their long lives, hence their great ability at cookery.

Also, an idea I have that I have yet to put into the thread, every time a loved one from amongst the shorter lived races dies, they have a tradition of creating a new "Memory recipe" in that person's honor, so that their name can be forever remembered through cuisine. For while people may die, a good recipe can survive forever.

They take years in the creation of these, and many of them are their finest works. A few of the sample Elvish foods buyable by adventurers as potion substitutes would be these. So yeah.

Also, does anybody better read in fantasy literature know of any literary elves more irritating/Mary Sue than the ones in The Inheritance Trilogy Cycle? Because, I swear to god, those schmucks seem to tick off every box in the list of "Things People Hate about Elves".

faustin
2012-10-23, 01:22 PM
Also, does anybody better read in fantasy literature know of any literary elves more irritating/Mary Sue than the ones in The Inheritance Trilogy Cycle? Because, I swear to god, those schmucks seem to tick off every box in the list of "Things People Hate about Elves".

No, but the Sitha from "Memory, Sorrow and Thorn" of Tad William are pretty close.:smallannoyed:

PairO'Dice Lost
2012-10-24, 06:57 PM
Where's that guy that did the math on why elves take so long to mature? That piece is one of the beautiful pieces of math meets raw meets fluff I've ever seen.

You rang? :smallamused:


It's really quite simple. Elves are perfectionists, and the 3e rules bear out the aging discrepancies.

In 3e, anything you can do is a skill or ability check. "Notice something large in plain sight" is a DC 0 Spot check, for instance--a check that cannot be failed by anyone with at least 10 Wis and no distractions, even if they're untrained, but a skill check nonetheless. Most of the time, you can ignore those checks, because they're impossible to fail, so humans and halflings and dwarves and all the rest simply take 10 on them. However, elves cannot abide doing anything less than perfectly, so they take 20 on every single check, which takes 20 times as long as making the check normally.

Every. Single. Check. Walking? DC 0 Balance check. Talking? DC 0 Diplomacy check. Eating? DC 0 Dex check. Using the bathroom? Er, you get the idea. That's why everyone sees elves as being the most beautiful, most awesome, etc. beings out there. Eating a sandwich will take them an hour where it would take a human 3 minutes, but by Corellon it'll be the most-gracefully-eaten sandwich you ever did see!

Now, this only applies when actually taking actions, so while elves trance they're taking no actions and therefore acting at "normal" speed. As well, it's very impolite to interrupt others while they're being awesome, and elves are very fair and equal-minded people, so they spend half their time being awesome at things and half their time patiently watching other elves be awesome at things. So for 1/6 of any given day they're trancing, and for 3/6 of any given day they're not taking any actions, and for the remaining 2/6 of any given day they're taking normal actions but taking 20 times as long to do them. (15 years to reach adulthood * 2/6 of the time taking actions * 20 "take 20" penalty) + (15 years to reach adulthood * 4/6 of the time not taking actions * 1 normal time) = 110 years on the dot.

When an elf leaves home, of course, he realizes that the terribly uncouth and uncultured non-elves don't tolerate such a thing or appreciate his awesomeness, so he has to get by with taking 10 on everything, and essentially starts living life on a human scale. This explains why non-adventuring elves are the mythically beautiful and graceful and awesome elves of legends, while adventuring elves are much more down-to-earth and seem a lot more like humans with pointy ears. The only chance they have to really indulge themselves is while they're out on an adventure--elves trance for 4 hours while his companions sleep for 8, so an elf has 4 hours per day to be the elfiest elf he can possibly be while no non-elves are there to watch and judge him.

According to the DMG, we can assume that there is a 10% chance of having a wandering monster/random encounter per hour. This means that there is a (1 - .9^4) chance that a random encounter happens while an elf is being elfy during the 4 hours he has to himself, or a 30% chance rounding to one significant figure. So he has roughly a 70% chance to be elfy for 1/6 of the day without interruption (sometimes much less, sometimes much more, depending on when he's interrupted, but we can assume it balances out), meaning he acts elfy roughly 1/8.5 of the time. Thus, while humans take 20 years to get from adulthood to middle age, elves take (20 years to reach middle age * 1/8.5 of the time taking elfy actions * 20 "take 20" penalty) + (20 years to reach adulthood * 7.5/8.5 of the time taking human-y actions * 1 normal time) = ~65 years to do so, which puts them at middle age at ~175 years, exactly what it says on the chart.
Conclusion: Given 3e RAW, elves must age at the given rates. So there. :smallcool: Yes, I put way too much thought into this. I was very bored.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-10-24, 07:24 PM
You rang? :smallamused:

I did sir.

Even the 4th time 'round this is still a stunning piece of work.

Lemmy
2012-10-24, 08:49 PM
I did sir.

Even the 4th time 'round this is still a stunning piece of work.

I couldn't agree more.

The Succubus
2012-10-25, 04:00 AM
It would also explain why more elves die through combat than through aging. If it's not a critical hit, then it's just rather scruffy poking with a weapon.

Kalirren
2012-10-25, 12:10 PM
So how does one make a likeable elf without rejecting everything that makes them..well..mentally an elf?

To first approximation, every elf eventually makes the mistake of growing too attached to something that will either pass away before them, or renounce them in redefining itself.

Maybe your character hasn't quite gotten there yet. Don't worry, they will. The question is what happens after that. What do they learn from that experience? How do they adapt and change their worldview as a result of it?

I think that's the important question to ask, and finding out what your character's answer is will be the most rewarding way to explore the elven mindset.

Coidzor
2012-10-25, 03:04 PM
You rang? :smallamused:

...T_T I am not worthy.

AgentofHellfire
2012-10-27, 11:50 AM
Basically, replace "Elf" with "noble" and you have the exact same problem, so if you've ever made a likeable member of the nobility...just use that framework.

If you haven't/don't want to, well, then...use the fact that Elves are long-lived. Your character could easily have started out assuming all the other races were beneath her, but ultimately come to have seen that there are advantages they gain from their perspectives that Elves couldn't imagine.

In other words, regard their manners with curiousity rather than disdain.

Psyren
2012-10-30, 02:14 PM
If that's the case, why isn't the Doctor an arrogant prick?

He's not? :smallconfused:

Granted I came in at #9 (Eccleston) but he struck me as House with a time machine. It only got worse with Tennant.

Cealocanth
2012-10-30, 03:16 PM
Interesting question. It is a big issue that every elf is almost always depicted as an arrogant prick, but I've found that people can also find that elves aren't nearly as arrogant in their nature when they simply have no races to compare themselves to.

An example of this is one of the things I'm running in my campaign. The party has found themselves stuck on an island inhabited by two warring factions of tribal, naturalist, elves. They had rarely encountered other fey races like Eladrin or Gnomes, and had never seen Humans, Goliaths, or Changelings before the party arrived. I find that when you roleplay elves not as a race of superiors, but as a race of those with a culture isolated from yours, the elven culture is quite accepting to those of different peoples. So, bottom line, if you have an elf wearing a loincloth and a bone through his nose attempting to bash your skull in using a rock tied to a stick, they seem a lot less arrogant than when they all speak with high class british accents and frown upon you as the primitive diplomatic ambassadors from the human empire.

Incom
2012-10-30, 04:52 PM
I didn't find the Doctor particularly mean most of the time (I also started with the new series, waiting for series 7 to get on Netflix before I watch it). Keyword "most of the time". It's kind of a cycle: he gets gradually more and more arrogant as he thinks he can solve all the world's problems, and then something happens to someone close to him, and it kind of shocks him back into relative normalcy for a while. Least that's the impression I got.

In other words, it's the exact opposite of what people are saying happens to elves. Death (etc.), rather than making us not care, is exactly what reminds us that we DO care.

Starbuck_II
2012-10-30, 11:17 PM
You should read Complete Book of Elves from AD&D.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?626446-Let-s-Read-The-Complete-Book-of-Elves

Shows how Haughty and Racist Elves are.

Lord Raziere
2012-10-31, 01:10 AM
Why are people so obsessed with keeping elves stupidly racist and arrogant, when they could improve them into something better? really, if you hate them that way so much, why don't you make an elf that isn't a bastard?

Morithias
2012-10-31, 01:31 AM
Why are people so obsessed with keeping elves stupidly racist and arrogant, when they could improve them into something better? really, if you hate them that way so much, why don't you make an elf that isn't a bastard?

Because when you play nice you get robbed, fired, and the only person that ends up being nice to you is the shrine of an evil god.

No, this character hasn't been going through break the cutie. Why did you ask that?

Lord Raziere
2012-10-31, 01:52 AM
………what kind of game of DnD do you people play? :smallsigh::smallconfused:

Morithias
2012-10-31, 02:52 AM
………what kind of game of DnD do you people play? :smallsigh::smallconfused:

Go into the play-by-post and read the "Aldhaven - The financial one" thread. So far she's signed herself into a contract where she'll be sent into slavery if she doesn't pay up which apparently is standard in the city. I got robbed by a customer who attempted to cheat me with fake money calling me "plaything" and then using a will save on me, thinking I was about to be dominated and turned into a sex slave.

The temple of Waukeen is kicking me out even though my parents were priests of it (missing in action because the DM apparently didn't want them around), and not giving me my favored bonus even though I have favored in guild.

And recently I blew 74 gp at a temple to a dark god and got a 78 gp gemstone back.

So yeah, so far the ONLY thing that has been nice to her is an unholy temple, and remember this girl started out with the hopes of helping the poor, and increasing the standards of living. She's quickly going down the rout of "Shadowrun megacorp, monopolize the district, overthrow the king and sell the princess into sex slavery and rule like a god, kidnapping and sacrificing on a dark alter anyone who ticks her off, and then murdering their children and spouses for good measure."

Lord Raziere
2012-10-31, 03:20 AM
wow. none of my games are cynical like that. and I've roleplayed characters with motivations far more selfish.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-10-31, 01:01 PM
Go into the play-by-post and read the "Aldhaven - The financial one" thread. So far she's signed herself into a contract where she'll be sent into slavery if she doesn't pay up which apparently is standard in the city. I got robbed by a customer who attempted to cheat me with fake money calling me "plaything" and then using a will save on me, thinking I was about to be dominated and turned into a sex slave.

The temple of Waukeen is kicking me out even though my parents were priests of it (missing in action because the DM apparently didn't want them around), and not giving me my favored bonus even though I have favored in guild.

And recently I blew 74 gp at a temple to a dark god and got a 78 gp gemstone back.

So yeah, so far the ONLY thing that has been nice to her is an unholy temple, and remember this girl started out with the hopes of helping the poor, and increasing the standards of living. She's quickly going down the rout of "Shadowrun megacorp, monopolize the district, overthrow the king and sell the princess into sex slavery and rule like a god, kidnapping and sacrificing on a dark alter anyone who ticks her off, and then murdering their children and spouses for good measure."

Okay, now I might have to really consider PBP.

That sounds awesome.


What....... some of us like dark games.

The_Shaman
2012-11-01, 04:45 PM
In short, where are the Shameless Hedonistic Elves and if there aren't any, why the hell not?

They are in Golarion, mostly. Have you checked the Cult of Calistria? (http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Calistria) Shameless, hedonistic and quite elfy. Just be careful with the nails, or you'll be rolling fortitude checks until next Thursday.

I tend to be of the mentality that there are several reasons why elves tend to come off as aloof and demeaning:

- They don't want to get too involved with shorter-lived races at some point. How many times in a lifetime do you want to see a friend grow old and die? It's not just heartache, but also nostalgia. I mean, people can get grumpy old codgers when they are 70 and most of their friends from the war die... imagine being 300 and attending the funeral of the great-great-granddaughter of your best friend, whom you met during a war no one else even remembers. Isn't it much better to keep most people like that at an arm's length? You are just saving yourself the trouble.

- Long memories: An elf will have met a lot of *******s during his/her years. A lot of decent people, too, but *******s tend to make themselves more memorable. Not to mention that an old war that happened between elves and humans 400 years ago may be something that elf over there fought in, and he still can't get over it.

- Pride and results. Get two lvl 2 fighters fresh out of the academy. The human put in 3 years. The elf put in 25. Now, the elf knows she didn't pick her nose there, and expects that she'd be treated be given priority due to experience. This goes for mages or other careers - elves or no, you'd expect the majority to think that they should know more than someone who put in a fraction of the time. I mean, the alternative would imply that they are idiots who took several times longer to get the exact same thing:smalleek: .

- Perspective, or humans can be level 20 jackasses too: If an insult is not given, it may simply be imagined. Imagine that you do get one of those rare talented, devoted and kind elves. Now, if she spent 40 years at her job, you'd expect her to be good at you... chances are, better than you with your 2 years of experience. She's better than you, better than you'll likely be, and it's just not fair. The thing is, she got all those fancy genes and 100 years to get good, you won't. It's not fair and she knows it. She must be laughing at poor schmucks like you, the ..... . Yes, that is an old Mary Sue line, but let's be honest - envy does happen, and the way some writers do elves it's not hard to be envious of the lucky bast... er, fellow demihumans.

- Anything you can do, I can do with more experience and personal talent: The other side of the coin is that some elves are just ******s; no race is without those. Their society is such that they don't usually HAVE to get along with others, they don't HAVE to care about other peoples' problems, they have a rich culture and history, and they have some real, hard facts pointing towards them just being better designed by the Creators (well, other races can point to other real, hard facts, but let's keep the perspective here). Add all this and there's at least 10-15% chance that some of them really buy into the "we are the greatest thing since ever" ethnic chauvinism. I'm sure we've all seen plenty of people who are full of it when it comes to their favourite club, their faith, their country, etc. The elven equivalent would probably be... quite grating.

Ironically, I'd expect elves to get on quite well with dwarves, at least the type that's likely to end in an elven settlement during peacetime.

Clistenes
2012-11-01, 04:50 PM
Well, in MY view of elves, the main difference is not just longevity:

Humans live in many enviroments and form a lot of different kinds of cultures and societies, but they are not only naturally poorly adapted to any enviroment, but they also have a hard time trying to fit into society.

Unlike animals, survival isn't instinctive for us, we have to learn to survive in whatever enviroment we are the hard way. We have to learn to use our tools, to properly use our language, writing, techniques, proffesions, and we are forced to do it quickly because our lives are short and we have a limited amount of time before we are too old. We even have to be taught how to behave in society and how to treat other people according to our relative places in said society, we have to learn our own rules and laws, and have a hard time doing it.

In short, humans have to LEARN how to be humans, and have a hard time doing it.

Knowing that, it isn't strange to feel (or being outright told) that we are doing it wrong, that we are not good enough, that we are mistaken,..etc.; we learn to be humans as we grow, and we often are told that we suck at it.

Most religions and philosophies tell us that we are naturally corrupted or wanting or insignificant or wrong, that we need to be trained and taught to be good, wise people.

For the elves, on the other hand, being an elf comes naturally: Their insticts are perfectly adapted to their natural woodlands enviroment, and they have no trouble knowing instinctively how to treat other elves; most of them live in small tribes that are nothing but clans or big extended families, they lack hierarchies or laws, are naturally friendly and peaceful to each other, and lack the human drive to establish dominance over each other. They don't need rules of laws, or a political structure, since the elders lead them, keep the peace and settle disputes, everybody does as he or she pleases as long as he or she doesn't disturb the others, and important decisions are taken in a radically democratic way, taking into account the desires of all the community.

The things the elves don't know instinctively they learn naturally, playing with their parents, uncles, aunts and older siblings; their long lifespan allow them to do so; no elf is forced to learn anything against his or her will.

Unlike humans, elves perceive themselves as good and right; they are naturally fitted for their life, enviroment and society, and know that; they expect to do the right thing when they follow their instincts (and that's the reason they are a "chaotic" race). The elves don't think that they need to be taught and trained to be good and wise; from the point of view of an elf, "elven"="naturally good".

A human who doesn't fit tend to think "there is something I'm doing wrong, I must discover what it is and correct it"; an elf, on the other hand, tends to think "there is something wrong with the world/the people around me; they should correct themselves", because he instinctively knows he's doing what he must, so the fault must be on the others.

There is elven "nobility", but they have no real official political power (there aren't laws giving them power), own lands (which are communal) and they don't owe their power to money and business either (elves don't mint their own money except to trade with other races); what they have is magical power, knowledge and magical items. Elven nobility is made up of bloodlines that show great skill for magic both divine and arcane, and their treasures are the magical heirlooms and spellbooks passed down from parent to child (and rules wise, in D&D, if you have magic you don't need anything else).

The elven "kings" and "queens" are individuals with great charisma who manage to attract the attention and admiration of many elves who willingly follow them, more similar to human rockstars with large fandoms than to our politicians and monarchs. Of course the need to be competent too; otherwise their failures would quickly destroy their mystique.

If the elves were left alone in their enviroment they would remain perfectly happy and good forever, but that's impossible: The outer world constantly comes to their door ruining their perfect lives. And that's a problem, because when an alien element contaminates their enviroment or they are pulled out of it, they can no longer trust their instincts, they are forced to learn to act against their natures, in an "un-elven" way, and they HATE it, because they instinctively know that the elven way is the good and right one, and that's the reason they suck at changing their ways and adapting to new situations.

The elves are angry with humans and dwarves and orcs because they disturb their perfect world, forcing them to change and behave un-elvenly, and in doing so, to lessen themselves, to become corrupted. The elves know how the world should be and how they should live, and the merely existence of those other races won't allow it.

In short, on some level, the elves are offended by the mere existence of humans.

They sometimes try to teach other races how to live "the right way" (that is, like elves), but that won't work because they work on instincts that other races doesn't share; humans may seem to learn to behave like elves, but they aren't adopting elven instincts, they are just doing what humans do, learning how to behave through training, and when the situation change, the humans are quick to drop that training for other behaviours more fitting for their survival.

The elves are angry at humans because stubborn humans don't want to be just like elves.

Wardog
2012-11-03, 04:57 AM
At a meta-level, I think the answer is this:


Tolkien's elves are special. They are physically and mentally superior to humans - quicker, more graceful, tougher, faster healing, more resistant to disease, more skillful, more wise (for a given definition of "wise"). They are superior craftsment and artists. More in tune with nature and with a greater appreciation of beauty. And barring massive injury or overwhealming despair, functionally immortal. And they are the way they are because because Eru - God - created them to fill fill the role of physical and artistic perfection.

However,despite this, they are not perfect. They have free will, can screw up, and in particular have all the pride, arrogance and above all hubris that comes with being a divinly-designed "perfect" people.


The problem with derivitive elves (or so it seems to me), is that their authors have taken a superficial look at Tolkien's elves (as portrayed in LotR, and maybe the Hobbit) and decided they like the general idea, but thought they were a bit over-powered and too "perfect". So have reduced their bonuses (effectivly reducing them to merely quick-but fragile humans who live a lot longer), who for no obvious reason are more beautiful and artistic than humans, while amping up the pride/arrogance (despite them now having much less of a reason to be so).

The other problem with these derivitive elves is that their authors forget that in Tolkiens works, although elves were special, favoured creations of Eru, so so were humans.


Tl;dr:
It's a result of trying to make Tolkien's elves more reasonable/balanced/interesting without understanding why they were the way they were or the roll they played in the Tolkien's cosmology.

Razanir
2012-11-03, 08:26 AM
To understand D&D elves, you need to understand their source. D&D elves(and much of D&D in general) are based off of Tolkien elves. In Tolkien's work, elves are immortal beings of great grace and power, each one worth more than a dozen men. The fact that Aragorn and Boromir, two of the greatest warriors among men were able to be better than even a fairly young wood elf in battle was no small feat(and it's arguable whether or not Aragorn is actually fully of the race of man).

Unrelated to the topic at hand, but Aragorn IS NOT completely human. He's descended from the House of Númenor, which in turn is descended from Elros Half-Elven– Elrond's brother. Without getting into all the details, he DOES have some Elvish blood in him (and some Maiar blood, but that's a different story)

faustin
2012-11-03, 08:32 AM
The other problem with these derivitive elves is that their authors forget that in Tolkiens works, although elves were special, favoured creations of Eru, so so were humans.


Really? :smallconfused: Let´s take a look:
Eru´s gifts for elves: beauty, inmortality, superior artistic creativity, physichal prowess, magic, wisdom, one with Nature and the World, invited by the very gods to live in their lands...:smallcool:
Eru´s gift for humans: DEATH.:smallfrown:

If anything, humans are special because we eventually developed science and technology instead of getting stuck in the hippie version of middle age.

Schylerwalker
2012-11-03, 10:59 AM
Few elves die.

Most elves do not become adventurers, and most elves avoid war and conflict and strife. They will defend their homes if need be, and with great skill and savage application of sword and sorcery (Especially against orcs, goblins, and their ilk), but without recklessness or a need to prove themselves. They know how to get along in the wild, and with their skill at magic and herb-lore, I do not imagine many of them giving in to sickness or poison.

So most elves will live out the long span of their days, I imagine.

It is a disconcerting thought, especially from a human point of view. We can assume that the "average" D&D elf will live to be about five hundred years old, give or take a century. Except in the most powerful or stagnant of human realms, this span of time is incredible; generations have come and gone, been forgotten, drifted towards legend, and new generations have emerged to forge new legends of their own.

And the elves have seen it all. Each individual elf over these past five hundred years have watched the rise and fall of tens of thousands of the short-lived races, and even gnomes, halflings, and dwarves must pass on before elves. This must give the elves a rather skewed interpretation of the world. Imagine a great warrior comes to the elves, demanding aid in a war against his neighbors. The elven diplomat looks at the man coldly and says "You are a disgrace to your great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather. His wisdom and foresight was a gift to his race, and your brash and ignorant nature offends our delicate elven sensitivities." To which the warrior blinks and says, "Who?" Obviously not word for word, as an elf would doubtless never to refer to their own delicate sensibilities, but the thought is there.

The "AVERAGE" elf has probably seen SPECIES come in to being and go extinct. Wars rage, demon princes rise in to power, angels fall from grace. Dragons grow wyrmlings in to mighty beasts of fire and air. The borders of the forest have changed in this time, the flow of rivers has been altered by human craft and ingenuity. I cannot POSSIBLY fathom that an elf can even come close to empathizing with a human. A human thinks of tomorrow and the next week, of putting food on the table. Twenty years from now is a black abyss, one which likely means their death, and a considerate human may perhaps think about the fate of their children or grandchildren, and on how to provide for their future.

An elf thinks two hundred years in to the future, and even then, with little relevance or true meaning; the last five hundred years have been relatively the same. What does another two hundred mean? The humans and the like will continue to fight and kill and die, while the glory and strength of our race diminishes, and human greed and ambition grows. Each elf must harbor a seed of anger and resentment towards the humans for their wanton and heedless destruction of the natural world and each other, just as the humans are jealous of the elves' long life, beauty, and grace.

In short; elves are alien, ancient beings. You CANNOT believe that they think even remotely like humans, or feel emotions the same way. When an elf treats a human or the like with arrogant hauteur, it is because they are speaking with children, and naughty children at that.

Sith_Happens
2012-11-03, 12:07 PM
Really? :smallconfused: Let´s take a look:
Eru´s gifts for elves: beauty, inmortality, superior artistic creativity, physichal prowess, magic, wisdom, one with Nature and the World, invited by the very gods to live in their lands...:smallcool:
Eru´s gift for humans: DEATH.:smallfrown:

That is actually the perfect example of what Wardog was talking about. In Middle-Earth, mortality is actually considered the greatest gift of all, but the reasons for that are heavily tied in with the overall philosophy of the setting. Trying to think about Tolkien's elf-human dichotomy in isolation simply falls apart as a result, and you end up with the too-common paradigm of humans with nothing special about them and elves who think there's something special about themselves.

snikrept
2012-11-04, 12:14 AM
Tolkien elves struck me as similar to white wolf vampires.... the first generation being titans capable of going toe to toe with the very gods, and later, younger elves being born gradually more wimpy and incompetent. With that sort of progression it's no wonder Tolkien elves also ended up with a pessimistic outlook.

The other thing about Tolkien elves was that the majority were hate-filled bastards willing to slit each others' throats for the slightest insult. If you had to live aeons together with the same group of sociopaths you'd end up bitter too.

hymer
2012-11-04, 11:38 AM
The other thing about Tolkien elves was that the majority were hate-filled bastards willing to slit each others' throats for the slightest insult.

Fëanor + sons don't make up the majority of elves, these being the major offenders. You may be misled by us hearing a lot more about the elves who actually do horrible things (and so drive the story forward) than we do about nice elves (since they interact very little with the story).

Starbuck_II
2012-11-04, 11:43 AM
Really? :smallconfused: Let´s take a look:
Eru´s gifts for elves: beauty, inmortality, superior artistic creativity, physichal prowess, magic, wisdom, one with Nature and the World, invited by the very gods to live in their lands...:smallcool:
Eru´s gift for humans: DEATH.:smallfrown:

If anything, humans are special because we eventually developed science and technology instead of getting stuck in the hippie version of middle age.

You forgot 1/2 elves like Aragorn...
Actually, this is why elves are seen as superior, the best of humans (king of them) wasn't fully human. Heck, most people assume 125 year old Aragorn (during Fellowship) is human.

hymer
2012-11-04, 11:54 AM
Aragorn is/was not half elf. For one thing, he is the descendant of Elendil after nearly thirty generations, who was descended from Elros after over twenty generations (by my memory - correct me if I'm wrong). Elros was just slightly over half elf.
That's a lot of washing out of elvish blood over the generations.
Add to that that Elros chose to be mortal, and to be counted among Men.

Razanir
2012-11-04, 01:51 PM
Aragorn is/was not half elf. For one thing, he is the descendant of Elendil after nearly thirty generations, who was descended from Elros after over twenty generations (by my memory - correct me if I'm wrong). Elros was just slightly over half elf.
That's a lot of washing out of elvish blood over the generations.
Add to that that Elros chose to be mortal, and to be counted among Men.

My friend and I estimated about 60 generations between Elros and Aragorn II. Also, you can't forget that Elros is 1/8 Maia, IIRC :smallbiggrin:

hymer
2012-11-04, 01:57 PM
I'm sure I could look up the exact number of generations there, but I can't be donkeyed. :) I'm sure you're about right.

Elros was 1/16th Maia, but yeah.
Melian the Maia had Lúthien the half-Maia, who had Dior the quarter-Maia, who had Elwing the one-eightht Maia, mother to Elrond and Elros, whose father had no Maiar blood.

Clistenes
2012-11-04, 02:19 PM
My friend and I estimated about 60 generations between Elros and Aragorn II. Also, you can't forget that Elros is 1/8 Maia, IIRC :smallbiggrin:

My sister was freaked when she discovered that Arwen and Aragorn were far removed cousins "they are cousins? incest! hillbillies!"; and I tried to explain her than they were 60 times removed first cousins, but she was still "it's still icky!".

I could have told her that, if we could research the previous 60 generations of our family, there was a very high chance that our own parents had some common ancestor (60 generations = 1200 to 1800 years) but I chose to shut up.

Lord Raziere
2012-11-04, 02:37 PM
Actually…

I remember reading somewhere that Gary Gygax disliked Lord of the Rings/hated Lord of Rings, took most of his inspiration from Farfhd and the Grey Mouser, and only allowed and halflings and ents in because of constant complaining from his gaming group…..

….but I can't find it.

but anyways, I still don't see why your all so set on elves being arrogant bastards when you can just change the way you think about them, and y'know- simply ignore the portrayals you don't like, make your own that you would like, change your own mind since, y'know- elves aren't real, they can be anything you want. if you don't want them to be that way, its only yourself thats getting in the way.

TuggyNE
2012-11-04, 07:30 PM
You forgot 1/2 elves like Aragorn...
Actually, this is why elves are seen as superior, the best of humans (king of them) wasn't fully human. Heck, most people assume 125 year old Aragorn (during Fellowship) is human.

Aragorn was only 84 (or 85, I don't recall precisely) when he became King of Gondor. :smalltongue:

Water_Bear
2012-11-04, 09:27 PM
but anyways, I still don't see why your all so set on elves being arrogant bastards when you can just change the way you think about them, and y'know- simply ignore the portrayals you don't like, make your own that you would like, change your own mind since, y'know- elves aren't real, they can be anything you want. if you don't want them to be that way, its only yourself thats getting in the way.

On the one hand, yes I agree with you. Personally, I like my elves as more rampaging immortal vikings rather than as racist hippies, and those are both concepts with support in literature and myth. There's no need to mindlessly repeat stale cliches; find a fresh alternate or drop the cliche entirely.

But on the other hand, if I made "Elves" who were jelly-like crustaceans with membranous wings and advanced technology from Pluto who fly in to steal the brains of Massachusetts scientists, I'm pretty sure you and most of the western world would be calling foul. Obviously that's a hyperbolic example, but if Twilight has shown us anything it's that there is a core of what a mythological creature is that, once abandoned, leaves only sparkly armageddon in it's wake.

snikrept
2012-11-05, 01:48 AM
Fëanor + sons don't make up the majority of elves, these being the major offenders. You may be misled by us hearing a lot more about the elves who actually do horrible things (and so drive the story forward) than we do about nice elves (since they interact very little with the story).
You're right, good news isn't spicy enough to make the news after all. But even among the news we get, the Kinslayings and such are described as being carried out by armies, by clans, by whole populations. They're not getting away with the "superior orders" defense!

hymer
2012-11-05, 04:47 AM
Well, if one instance (albeit heinous) is going to darn them to heck, then a large portion of elves have done a great wrong, I agree. But a majority I still don't buy. I doubt it was a majority that left in the first place. And not all those who went to Middle-Earth again did so as part of the Fëanorian party. They did set up independent kingdoms, and the sons of Fëanor were mistrusted because of what they (and their people, if you will) had done in getting back east.
But I'll also admit I am (and to some degree the Silmarillion is) somewhat hazy on this.

TuggyNE
2012-11-05, 05:22 AM
Well, if one instance (albeit heinous) is going to darn them to heck, then a large portion of elves have done a great wrong, I agree. But a majority I still don't buy. I doubt it was a majority that left in the first place. And not all those who went to Middle-Earth again did so as part of the Fëanorian party. They did set up independent kingdoms, and the sons of Fëanor were mistrusted because of what they (and their people, if you will) had done in getting back east.
But I'll also admit I am (and to some degree the Silmarillion is) somewhat hazy on this.

Note as well that many or most of those who participated in the Kinslaying were duped or manipulated into it; more than half of those who fought against the Teleri thought that they were defending against an unwarranted aggression, and there were doubtless some in the House of Fëanor that were not entirely happy with the situation either.

Yora
2012-11-05, 06:31 AM
There were quite a number of lords that were totally against it but felt unable to do anything about them as their superior lord had sworn an oath that he and his people would never rest until the gems are recovered. I think even in the 1920 and 30s that idea was retarded, but maybe that was the point, as such nonsensical justifications were used by lots of people in Europe at the time.
I think at the end, 2 of the 12 or so even make it out alive of the whole mess because they at least refused to take part in the worst atrocities.

but anyways, I still don't see why your all so set on elves being arrogant bastards when you can just change the way you think about them, and y'know- simply ignore the portrayals you don't like, make your own that you would like, change your own mind since, y'know- elves aren't real, they can be anything you want. if you don't want them to be that way, its only yourself thats getting in the way.
In all fairness, dwarves don't have to be rude alcoholic scottish viking miners, yet they almost always are. I think elves actually have it better with at least some attempts of making them something else being relatively successful.

AgentofHellfire
2012-11-05, 06:27 PM
In all fairness, dwarves don't have to be rude alcoholic scottish viking miners, yet they almost always are. I think elves actually have it better with at least some attempts of making them something else being relatively successful.


Ooooh.

I want to talk about my Dwarves now...

They're quasi-Hindu quasi-American Southern devil-worshippers/slaves of devil-worshippers. XD

Lapak
2012-11-05, 07:33 PM
In all fairness, dwarves don't have to be rude alcoholic scottish viking miners, yet they almost always are. I think elves actually have it better with at least some attempts of making them something else being relatively successful.

Ooooh.
I want to talk about my Dwarves now...

They're quasi-Hindu quasi-American Southern devil-worshippers/slaves of devil-worshippers. XDEven without straying too far from the stereotype, I like takes on dwarves that emphasize the serious master-craftsmen / collectors of wealth angle and give them interesting reasons for it.

Which is why I'm fond of James Maliszewski's take on dwarves (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2010/06/making-babies.html), which makes them more earth elemental-ish and requires them to carve their offspring at ruinous cost (which the child then owes as a debt!) Also the Red Tide (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/89888/Red-Tide%3A-Campaign-Sourcebook-and-Sandbox-Toolkit) spin on them: cursed descendants of humans who made a deal with an otherworldly being, bound to serve her as slaves in the afterlife because of their ancestors' choices, the only thing that they can 'take with them' after death to fight off her demonic spirit-collectors are grave goods made of pure gold.

ReaderAt2046
2012-11-05, 09:29 PM
The orcs are the twisted cousins of the elves...!

Actually, they are. Tolkien mentions in the Silmarillion that Melkor captured a bunch of Elves before they came to Valinar (they were still a lot weaker and more naive then) and that it's almost certain the orcs were created by twisting those captured elves.

Coidzor
2012-11-05, 10:58 PM
In all fairness, dwarves don't have to be rude alcoholic scottish viking miners, yet they almost always are. I think elves actually have it better with at least some attempts of making them something else being relatively successful.

Gotta come up with some reason why the other dwarves wanted rid of the ones that become adventurers, after all.

tbok1992
2012-11-06, 03:10 AM
On the one hand, yes I agree with you. Personally, I like my elves as more rampaging immortal vikings rather than as racist hippies, and those are both concepts with support in literature and myth. There's no need to mindlessly repeat stale cliches; find a fresh alternate or drop the cliche entirely.

But on the other hand, if I made "Elves" who were jelly-like crustaceans with membranous wings and advanced technology from Pluto who fly in to steal the brains of Massachusetts scientists, I'm pretty sure you and most of the western world would be calling foul. Obviously that's a hyperbolic example, but if Twilight has shown us anything it's that there is a core of what a mythological creature is that, once abandoned, leaves only sparkly armageddon in it's wake.

Says you. I personally think that those would be THE BEST Elves. Or at least the most hillarious.

And also, on your other statement, I kind of was inspired by the freaking Keebler elves and the sort of Lord of the Rings craftsman stereotype for those Dungeonworld master-chef elves I asided in my last post, so I do think that anything does work if it does fit in thematically.

My dwarves in Dungeonworld, for example, are based very much on the ones on Dwarf Fortress. Which, due to their amazingly insane gadgeteering and nigh-suicidal/stupid risktaking, makes them weirdly like Tinker Gnomes.

hymer
2012-11-06, 06:16 AM
@ ReaderAt2046: Tolkien never settled on exactly where Orcs came from. He ran into philosophical or theological difficulties: Elves have souls, and as such a choice between good and evil. Orcs have no such choice.
Anyway, I think you'll find that the Silmarillion states the 'corrupted elves' as the best available speculation, specifically citing how nothing is known for certain. Tolkien grappled with the problem for a quite a while, coming up with something like a handful of other ways Orcs could have come about. He never settled on any one of them.

Clistenes
2012-11-06, 03:06 PM
Actually, they are. Tolkien mentions in the Silmarillion that Melkor captured a bunch of Elves before they came to Valinar (they were still a lot weaker and more naive then) and that it's almost certain the orcs were created by twisting those captured elves.


@ ReaderAt2046: Tolkien never settled on exactly where Orcs came from. He ran into philosophical or theological difficulties: Elves have souls, and as such a choice between good and evil. Orcs have no such choice.
Anyway, I think you'll find that the Silmarillion states the 'corrupted elves' as the best available speculation, specifically citing how nothing is known for certain. Tolkien grappled with the problem for a quite a while, coming up with something like a handful of other ways Orcs could have come about. He never settled on any one of them.

Tolkien wavered between several possible origins of the orcs:

1.-Captured and corrupted elves. This version has the already mentioned problem that, as elves, they should be able to choose between good and evil; also, Melkor wasn't supposed to be able to permanentely corrupt a race, much less the elven race.

2.-A human breed created through selective breeding and eugenesia. Shares the problems of version 1, plus the idea of an eugenesic program was too icky for Tolkien's sensibilities (he didn't even wanted to think about orcish women and children; he said to even think of their lives would be too horrible).

3.-Uplifted animals created through selective breeding, eugenesia and black magic. This theory has the problem that Tolkien's christian sensibilities were repulsed by the idea of human-like creatures made from animals: That's the province of God/Eru.

5.-Corporeal demons (corrupted Maiar) and their degenerated descendants. The problem is, Tolkien abandoned early the idea of valar gods and maia spirits breeding with each other.

6.-Degenerated descendants of corporeal demons (corrupted Maiar) and humans or elves. Same problems as option 1 and option 2, plus demons raping humans and elves.

6.-Degenerated descendants of corporeal demons (corrupted Maiar) and humanoid uplifted animals created through selective breeding, eugenesia and black magic. Same problems as option 3 plus demon zoophilia.

7.-Demons (corrupted Maiar) inhabiting animal bodies created through selective breeding, eugenesia and black magic (said bodies laking intelligence of their own before being possesed). Main problem: That would make Tolkien's world too demon-infested.

8.-Uplifted animals created through selective breeding, eugenesia and black magic, lacking intelligence of their own, but given a semblance of such with black magic (and that would be the reason they disbanded when Sauron lost his power, they went back to stupid animals). Problem is, Sauron never showed such level of power (he would be the source of human-like intelligence to millions of orcs, which approach god-like levels of power).

And even if chose for one of that options, Tolkien had the problem of explain how they were bred, which creeped him. He probably wished he had just used the original Orcnei (devil-corpses, a sort of wights) from anglo-saxan myth :smalltongue:

ReaderAt2046
2012-11-07, 07:34 PM
Really? :smallconfused: Let´s take a look:
Eru´s gifts for elves: beauty, inmortality, superior artistic creativity, physichal prowess, magic, wisdom, one with Nature and the World, invited by the very gods to live in their lands...:smallcool:
Eru´s gift for humans: DEATH.:smallfrown:



Two notes here:

1. Actually, humans were given another gift: freedom. Everything else, even the elves and the very gods, are bound by the fate laid down in the Music of the Ainur. Humans alone are truly free-willed.

2. Immortality (of the sort the elves get) is not as great as you'd think. It means being trapped in a tainted world for countless eons, watching the beauty fade and the darkness corrupt, growing utterly tired of existence and still being forced to endure. Not until the end of Time itself and the ending of the world can elves escape. By contrast, the faithful men (and originally all men) go from the world to be with Illatvur himself, essentially the same thing as heaven. There have been elves that envied humans their gift of death, and even elves who sought to die.