Make my Swordsage overpowered

[nokla]

Hey guys, I'm starting a new session next week and I've got my eyes on the swordsage class. Could you help me choosing what race and feats should I take, and the general direction on how to build him into a beast on the battlefield?

Thanks in advance. :smallwink:

[Eldariel]

Hey guys, I'm starting a new session next week and I've got my eyes on the swordsage class. Could you help me choosing what race and feats should I take, and the general direction on how to build him into a beast on the battlefield?

Thanks in advance. :smallwink:

What kind of a Swordsage are you looking at? Wis, Dex or Strength focus? Combat style; Two-weapon, two-handed, unarmed? Which schools most interest you? Do you want to primarily be a damage dealer or a controller? How defensive/offensive are you interested in?

[Sith_Happens]

Hey guys, I'm starting a new session next week and I've got my eyes on the swordsage class. Could you help me choosing what race and feats should I take, and the general direction on how to build him into a beast on the battlefield?

Thanks in advance. :smallwink:

There are a lot of different ways you can go with a swordsage. If you could narrow down what sort of fighting style you'd prefer then we'll at least have some place to start.

Of course, if you really want "overpowered," I'd take look under the "Adaptations" section on page 20 (same paragraph that the Unarmed Swordsage "variant" comes from) where it mentions possibly letting swordsages use spells as maneuvers (commonly referred to as the Arcane Swordsage). If anyone on this forum has fleshed that out in a way that isn't just as broken as it sounds like, then that's news to me.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Adaptive Style is generally considered a "must have" feat for swordsages since their recovery mechanic sucks otherwise.

For TWF, Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade and of course the TWF feats are good.

As for races, human is as always a strong choice, but strongheart halflings, whisper gnomes or xeph are nice too for a DEX based Swordsage.

Consider dipping four levels of Warblade for access to Iron Heart and White Raven maneuvers and 16 BAB at lvl 20 (depending on how long the campaign lasts).

[nokla]

What kind of a Swordsage are you looking at? Wis, Dex or Strength focus? Combat style; Two-weapon, two-handed, unarmed? Which schools most interest you? Do you want to primarily be a damage dealer or a controller? How defensive/offensive are you interested in?

Was thinking of going something along the lines of Dex/Wis focus, with Combat Finesse. Dunno about combat style, Two-weapon is cool but I don't want to burn off my feats on reducing the penalties. Let's say 80% dmg dealer and 20% crowd control, with the attack being the best defense.


There are a lot of different ways you can go with a swordsage. If you could narrow down what sort of fighting style you'd prefer then we'll at least have some place to start.

Of course, if you really want "overpowered," I'd take look under the "Adaptations" section on page 20 (same paragraph that the Unarmed Swordsage "variant" comes from) where it mentions possibly letting swordsages use spells as maneuvers (commonly referred to as the Arcane Swordsage). If anyone on this forum has fleshed that out in a way that isn't just as broken as it sounds like, then that's news to me.


Yeah bro, I checked that, definitely don't wanna go unarmed, and I really think the DM won't let me cast spells as maneuvers, so...

Hope this helps.

[Eldariel]

Was thinking of going something along the lines of Dex/Wis focus, with Combat Finesse. Dunno about combat style, Two-weapon is cool but I don't want to burn off my feats on reducing the penalties. Let's say 80% dmg dealer and 20% crowd control, with the attack being the best defense.

I'd say Weapon Finesse/Shadow Blade with primary Dex-focus then. Go Two-Weapon Fighting (need flaws or dips for this to be feasible feat-wise), pick some Tiger Claw/Desert Wind Boosts for damage, Diamond Mind for mobility and Setting Sun/Shadow Hand control. Throws are pretty nice.

[nokla]

I'd say Weapon Finesse/Shadow Blade with primary Dex-focus then. Go Two-Weapon Fighting (need flaws or dips for this to be feasible feat-wise), pick some Tiger Claw/Desert Wind Boosts for damage, Diamond Mind for mobility and Setting Sun/Shadow Hand control. Throws are pretty nice.


Thanks bro, will definitely look into that!

Could anyone just write a sketch of the level progression, dips are welcome but I don't have much extensive knowledge about d&d so if anyone could just tell me at what level do I dip, how deep, and what feats should I grab on what level.

Thanks bromigos!

[sleepyphoenixx]

Dipping Warblade 1 at level 5 gets you both Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics. When to take the other dips (if you want to take them at all, which only makes sense if you ever reach lvl20 or want specific white raven/iron heart maneuvers) depends on the specific maneuvers you want.

so it would look something like this:

Swordsage 1 - Adaptive Style, Shadow Blade(human or flaw), TWF (flaw)
Swordsage 2
Swordsage 3 - Weapon Finesse
Swordsage 4
Warblade 1

after that take Swordsage unless you want a Warblade maneuver, and for feats improved/greater TWF.

For maneuvers I would suggest Wolf Fang Strike and Sudden Leap to allow for mobile full attacks,
Child of Shadows as a stance to grant concealment whilst doing so,
Counter Charge to deflect any attempts to get to grips with you and Burning Blade as a generic damage boost (primarily to combine with Wolf Fang Strike).
The final two (unreadied) maneuvers are very open, but Diamond Mind or Shadow Hand maneuvers
to help meet later prerequisites would be my choices.

[nokla]

Dipping Warblade 1 at level 5 gets you both Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics. When to take the other dips (if you want to take them at all, which only makes sense if you ever reach lvl20 or want specific white raven/iron heart maneuvers) depends on the specific maneuvers you want.

so it would look something like this:

Swordsage 1 - Adaptive Style, Shadow Blade(human or flaw), TWF (flaw)
Swordsage 2
Swordsage 3 - Weapon Finesse
Swordsage 4
Warblade 1

after that take Swordsage unless you want a Warblade maneuver, and for feats improved/greater TWF.

For maneuvers I would suggest Wolf Fang Strike and Sudden Leap to allow for mobile full attacks,
Child of Shadows as a stance to grant concealment whilst doing so,
Counter Charge to deflect any attempts to get to grips with you and Burning Blade as a generic damage boost (primarily to combine with Wolf Fang Strike).
The final two (unreadied) maneuvers are very open, but Diamond Mind or Shadow Hand maneuvers
to help meet later prerequisites would be my choices.

NICE!

I'm reading the Tome of Battle now, and I can't find something. What are the Shadow Sun I need to make use of the Shadow Blade feat?

[sleepyphoenixx]

NICE!

I'm reading the Tome of Battle now, and I can't find something. What are the Shadow Sun I need to make use of the Shadow Blade feat?

Shadow Hand needs one Shadow Hands stance.
Child of Shadows fills that requirement.

[Eldariel]

Dipping Warblade 1 at level 5 gets you both Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics. When to take the other dips (if you want to take them at all, which only makes sense if you ever reach lvl20 or want specific white raven/iron heart maneuvers) depends on the specific maneuvers you want.

Does not. You receive IL ½ from other initiator classes, so on ECL 5 SS4/WB1 your IL for WB is 3. You need SS8/WB1 for WRT/IHS. Then might as well take another level in something.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Does not. You receive IL ½ from other initiator classes, so on ECL 5 SS4/WB1 your IL for WB is 3. You need SS8/WB1 for WRT/IHS. Then might as well take another level in something.

you're right. my mistake.:smallredface:

[nokla]

Does not. You receive IL ½ from other initiator classes, so on ECL 5 SS4/WB1 your IL for WB is 3. You need SS8/WB1 for WRT/IHS. Then might as well take another level in something.

You lost me at ½.

Could you please explain, and say what should I dip to get the White Raven and Iron Heart?

[sleepyphoenixx]

You lost me at ½.

Could you please explain, and say what should I dip to get the White Raven and Iron Heart?

the initiator level decides what maneuvers you can take.
1-2 for 1st level maneuvers
3-4 for 2nd level maneuvers
5-6 for 3rd level maneuvers
etc.

since both IHS and WRT are level 3 maneuvers you need initiator level 5 to take them.
as swordsage levels count only for 1/2 when you take warblade maneuvers, you need to dip at level 9 to get IHS and WRT.

[docnessuno]

Since the topic's title asks for OPness, i think the best route would be the arcane swordsage variant.
Just be sure to duck and cover after you ask it to the DM.

[RFLS]

Yeah bro, I checked that, definitely don't wanna go unarmed, and I really think the DM won't let me cast spells as maneuvers, so...


Since the topic's title asks for OPness, i think the best route would be the arcane swordsage variant.
Just be sure to duck and cover after you ask it to the DM.

These two may be relevant to each other.

Anywho, given that you're playing melee, there's not much in the way of OP you can get without being an ubercharger. That being said, the advice given so far is solid, definitely a good starting place. I need to go check what they said about IL stacking, but that sounds right. I can highly recommend this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85614) homebrew discipline if it's allowable at your table and you're looking to play a controller. It stacks quite nicely with Diamond Mind and Setting Sun maneuvers.

You did say that you're looking for straight up damage; you'd honestly be better served playing a Warblade if that's what you're after; specifically, one specializing in Tiger Claw maneuvers and abusing the heck out of the Blood in the Water stance (Can you say Imp. Crit Aptitude Kukris + Lightning Maces? I thought so.) There are many ways to build for damage, though, but I do have to say that if you're set on ToB and after damage, Warblade is the way to go. Swordsage is definitely more of a skill monkey.

I'm going to mock you for saying bro now. Mock.

[Sith_Happens]

You did say that you're looking for straight up damage; you'd honestly be better served playing a Warblade if that's what you're after; specifically, one specializing in Tiger Claw maneuvers and abusing the heck out of the Stormguard Warrior feat (Can you say Imp. Crit Aptitude Kukris + Lightning Maces? I thought so.)

Fixed, although the two are hardly mutually-exclusive.:smallamused:

[RFLS]

Fixed, although the two are hardly mutually-exclusive.:smallamused:

No, pretty sure I meant Blood in the Water.

[Aliek]

OP swordsage? How come nobody mentioned Telflammar Shadowlord?

With shadow jaunt maneuvers you can get up to 3 full attacks in a turn. That must count for something.

Snatch some 7 RKV levels if you can squeeze it in, get some turn undead and go nova with divine impetus+shadow blink IIRC. 2 turn undead attempts for some positioning and a full attack? Yes, please.

Might be a bit of a pain to qualify for everything tough. Telflammar Shadowlord especially. But you can snatch the +2d6 sneak attack damage without that much effort if using that shadow hand stance too. The 4 feats are the deal breakers.

For that I'd usually get a couple "feat dips".

I'm in a bit of a hurry right now so I'm not able to get a rough sketch of a build, but if that's what you're looking for I'll try doing it later today.

[Krazzman]

There are 2 things you have to be wary of.

First the number 6. This is the number of other classlevels you can have and still be able to get 9th-level maneuvers.
Second would be the Swordsage Handbook that is... albeit not 100% finished but still available on this forum.

[Sith_Happens]

No, pretty sure I meant Blood in the Water.

If you think that Blood in the Water scales awesomely with having tons of attacks (which it does), then you should probably read the Combat Rhythm option on Stormguard Warrior again. It basically makes your damage scale quadratically with the number of attacks you have.

[Douglas]

Of course, if you really want "overpowered," I'd take look under the "Adaptations" section on page 20 (same paragraph that the Unarmed Swordsage "variant" comes from) where it mentions possibly letting swordsages use spells as maneuvers (commonly referred to as the Arcane Swordsage). If anyone on this forum has fleshed that out in a way that isn't just as broken as it sounds like, then that's news to me.
Check my sig, I at least made an attempt at it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you think that Blood in the Water scales awesomely with having tons of attacks (which it does), then you should probably read the Combat Rhythm option on Stormguard Warrior again. It basically makes your damage scale quadratically with the number of attacks you have.

Blood in the Water can have a more immediate return, Combat Rythm requires at the very least a set up turn (though Island in time or white raven tactics let you take another turn NAO). Personally I prefer Stormguard warrior in a warblade build since it comes earlier than in a Swordage build.

[Sith_Happens]

(though Island in time or white raven tactics let you take another turn NAO).

You know, the whole "White Raven Tactics can be used on yourself by RAW" line is popular around here, but I really don't think it's correct. Yes, WRT can target any "ally," which includes yourself. However, the actual effect of the maneuver is to change the target's initiative count to just after yours; the extra turn is merely an intended consequence of doing that. Moving your own initiative count to after your own initiative count doesn't actually change your initiative count. Therefore, no extra turn.

[Arcanist]

Since the topic's title asks for OPness, i think the best route would be the arcane swordsage variant.
Just be sure to duck and cover after you ask it to the DM.

Arcane Swordsage variant for Maneuvers and spell access (while still being treated as an Initiator class) and then take a few (like 2) levels dipped into Warblade for an increased Initiator level while still gaining access to Spells. Then take levels in Jade Phoenix and progress both classes at the same time. This part is the most important, because you'll need to roll a natural 20 to avoid your DM's book.

On a side note: If a player ever walked up to me with this, I would just flat out say "NO!"

EDIT: Please tell me this isn't possible and provide reading that proves so

[Answerer]

An "overpowered" Swordsage, barring the spellcasting variant, would really be a Ruby Knight Vindicator or maybe a Jade Phoenix Mage, and then it's only overpowered because Clerics and Wizards are overpowered. The Swordsage itself is an exceptionally well-balanced class and there isn't really any way to break it using its own class features.

A Swordsage/Telflammar Shadowlord might be overpowered, though it's still a 1/encounter trick. But having an utterly devastating round once per encounter is still rather powerful.

[Douglas]

You know, the whole "White Raven Tactics can be used on yourself by RAW" line is popular around here, but I really don't think it's correct. Yes, WRT can target any "ally," which includes yourself. However, the actual effect of the maneuver is to change the target's initiative count to just after yours; the extra turn is merely an intended consequence of doing that. Moving your own initiative count to after your own initiative count doesn't actually change your initiative count. Therefore, no extra turn.
Try telling a computer programmer that the line of code "Let x = x - 1" (or syntactical equivalent in whatever language he uses) is nonsensical or does nothing. You will probably get a very strange look from him before he explains how wrong you are.

Conceptually, this is identical to the initiative effect of using WRT on yourself.